[IslandHead]

	Originally Posted by larkin To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Are mosques now the equivalent of swastikas?

No, it was a poorly made comparison, just using both as symbols that could be associated with negative events. with the thought pattern of (sawstikas->nazi-> holocaust) or (mosque->islam-> extremists->9/11).

[Apocynum]

Originally Posted by IrishGuy To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I didn't know that about the labor shortage. I was just thinking ironic in terms of the culture clash. I don't know how the French would respond to a Quran in a jar of urine, but that Danish cartoonist was threatened rather seriously for his drawings of Mohammad. I believe he was even attacked, though not injured. The one thing about the Danish cartoonist though is that the offense came mostly from abroad. Middle Eastern countries were in uproar, but I still think that the World Wars are mostly responsible for European passiveness. it does not just apply to wars, but Europeans are just generally conflict averse now. They want to bring everybody together and until their "tribalism" kicks back into gear I think we'll see that no matter what foreigners are involved.

I believe that the author, Salman Rushdie, still lives in hiding. I can find references as recent as 2005 that the fatwa against him has been publicly (re)affirmed. While he is still alive, there have been killings of others associated with the book, including people who have translated it.

We agree that the series of wars in Europe have lead, one way or the other, to certain aversions that Europeans are dealing with currently. Now if they can just quite getting violent over soccer….
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Some of the problem I have is that Muslims seem even more adverse to criticism, whether from inside or out. Improvement requires (objective) critical analysis and a willingness to accept the results, good or bad of that analysis. And I suppose a willingness to change if it’s bad. The level they go to in silencing (includes murder sometimes-note Rushdie above) their critics really, really implies that they lack intention to even examine, let alone act to change the object of the criticism.

	Originally Posted by IrishGuy To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	It could also just be a matter of time, the United States has had the same problems with it's immigrants over the years, but once you get 2-4 generations removed they don't even know what their foreign counterparts are like.

Getting less likely to continue this way. The progressive movement as I see it increasingly attacks and belittles the American culture, at least insofar as they promote and teach every culture but the American one. It may be nothing more than an assumption that it is absorbed from the neither regions of simply being here. But if your culture at home isn’t American because you’re an immigrant and schools, the media, etc. are talking about all the other cultures, how and where is an immigrant supposed to learn it? Within a generation, I think it is possible to lose the culture to an amorphous mass of poorly integrated multicultures (this is not a prediction, just a theory of mine – I also say we’re always just one generation away from the cave, as in collapsing back to it).

Now, take into account that there are areas of Muslim immigration in the US which have asked for separate Muslim schools and even for changing the (local) legal systems to Sharia. If allowed, you will not see the integration that has happened in the past. It’s a scary thing too, since Sharia is fundamentally incompatible with the American system, so there is evidence of resistance to integration as well. [I’ll happily start another thread to discuss the incompatibility between Sharia and American legal systems]

	Originally Posted by IrishGuy To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	The Muslims in my area have finally been checked here. They banned the Muslim Student Union (MSU) at my former University for their extreme actions. So far the ban has been defended.

That’s good to hear, and not just because they’re Muslim extremists. Wackos of any persuasion need limits; there was a lot of fear of Satanic cults when I was growing up, so use that often to test my positions. Who asked for the ban? Were some of the Muslims involved in the asking?

	Originally Posted by Sulla To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	The Arab world was light years ahead of Europe in every measurable way for the duration of the middle ages.

Including in executing a scorched earth policy of expansion. Documented by countries on the edges of the expansion that survived sufficiently intact to have independent records of events of that time (Greece being an example.)

Something I have found in my quick check of the Middle Ages which is of interest to this thread: The peak of Muslim culture and rule was by the Umayyad dynasty, who were overthrown in 750. A last prince of that dynasty escaped to Spain and founded a new Umayyad dynasty in Cordoba; made fairly easy since the Muslims had pretty much captured and destroyed Cordoba in 711 (see aforementioned scorched earth policy of invasion). What population remained was rather outnumbered and controlled by Muslims. Interesting it that the name of the Mosque/Community Center was to be Cordoba House. While Cordoba later became a center of learning, it was also the origin and center of the new Muslim dynasty founded on the ashes of their invasion. With such a mixed history, it makes a questionable choice of name.

	Originally Posted by booko
	But there is so much more to be said about Christians, whose teachings have resulted in the slavery and murder of millions of black Americans. This fact simply cannot be erased.

What?!? Please support with evidence! I have never seen any facts that stating that the experiences of black Americans RESULTS FROM religious teachings.

Originally Posted by whitey

Can you provide evidence that religion was used in justifying the actions? The last I checked those who profess statism, especially for the legal fiction known as the United States, claim a separation of church and state. Again, it appears to me that these mercenaries who performed the killing were in the employ of this legal fiction which claims a separation of church and state. Religion is a convenient scape goat when it suits statists.

While I hate to support the other side of the argument, the westward expansion of the US during the 1800’s was oft supported by the notion that became known as Manifest Destiny, which is predicated on the US having been given Divine Providence to spread. Now, the origins of the idea did not include military/violent expansion; in fact, it even excluded government involvement and suggested that our ideals of democracy and freedom would spread of their own accord, without assistance. There was a great deal of criticism, that got lost in the general noise, of Manifest Destiny being abused as a thin veil on acts actually motivated by chauvinism and/or self-interest.

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	Originally Posted by larkin To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Are mosques now the equivalent of swastikas?

	Originally Posted by IslandHead To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	No, it was a poorly made comparison, just using both as symbols that could be associated with negative events. with the thought pattern of (sawstikas->nazi-> holocaust) or (mosque->islam-> extremists->9/11).

There are groups of people still trying to recover the swastika from the dark definition given it by the Nazis. It is an ancient symbol, typically of good fortune and life/strength, used as decoration generally as well as for sacred purposes, in a number of religions including Hindu and Buddhism.

[Paul Siraisi]

	Originally Posted by larkin To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	It honestly sounds as if you've never met or known any practicing Muslims. I'm not suggesting that's true - I have no idea how well you know Muslim people - but I only know a handful of Muslims in the U.S., and even in that handful there are plenty of examples of what you say doesn't exist.

I have to admit I know no practicing muslims personally. I've had two Iranian girlfriends, and know a Pakistani or two, none of whom I would ever call muslim. I'm a member of Iranian, Iraqi and Islamic fora like this one, so I hear their views.

	Originally Posted by larkin To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Those Muslims who are non-practicing feel no need to fake anything to anyone, especially among the younger generation.

I was thinking of non-practicing muslims in muslim countries, where I’m pretty sure there is relatively strong pressure to conform (stronger in general than for Christians in Christian countries). Here in the US, our few muslims are surrounded by non-muslims, and as I said, the non-practicing ones are indistinguishable from them—at most they identify by nationality, not Islamicana. You didn’t answer this point:.

	Originally Posted by Paul S
	I'd be interested to see an example of a whole community whose members when asked say, 'we are muslim', but who also don't take the Quran seriously at all (as an explicit group position).

Originally Posted by larkin

Originally Posted by Paul S   Originally Posted by larkin There are Muslims who consider themselves orthodox but still pick and choose the parts of the Koran they follow specifically. Slim pickings. Can you provide some examples of orthodox Muslims who would recommend against, say, the death penalty for apostates? Or do you mean they'll sort of avoid calling for a death penalty, but if someone else comes along and does it, they won't stand up? I also know Muslims who are observant if not orthodox - they pray multiple times a day, they fast at Ramadan - and I can promise you they would not recommend the death penalty…

I guess that’s why they’re not orthodox, per my request (and your original point). "The traditional schools of Islamic jurisprudence are unanimous in holding that apostasy by a male Muslim is punishable by death." -
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. You didn’t answer the second part. Do you think your observant friends might find themselves ceding the floor to more orthodox practitioners regarding apostasy –assuming, again, they’re in a country where Islamic ideals have free reign?

	Originally Posted by larkin To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Unbelievable, I know, given your careful study of their scripture, but it should be obvious by now that scripture is only one part of the culture of any religion.

You know you’re in trouble when it’s your religion that has the culture, and not the other way around.

Scripture defines religion, people then fail to live up to it. In the case of Islam, your argument on its behalf so far consists of hoping people do just that. I agree. The only good muslim is a bad muslim.

	Originally Posted by larkin To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Why does non-practicing mean they have no part of this discussion? Are Christmas-Easter Christians not Christians? Self-definition and cultural definition are the more relevant considerations; that's not confusing religion and ethnicity.

This is a discussion about religion—about the world’s suckiest religion. If you’re not practicing it then this is not about you. Rock on, bad "muslims".

	Originally Posted by larkin To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Again, Shari'a is just a word for religious law.

Are we in doubt about the religion in question? There are four schools. Didn’t you see my pic (not mine, actually, but I've lost track of the source)?

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	Originally Posted by larkin To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	As it's practiced in some countries it's come to have connotations of brutality especially as portrayed in the West, but in other countries (not even including Turkey and Lebanon) - Jordan,

The laws in Jordan favor the males and women have been secretly smuggled into the USA to "safe houses" from and to which they must constantly move around in order to escape assassins hired by their families to kill them. In Jordan stoning or burning alive are most common methods used to kill women. While the American Queen Noor reigned in Jordan, Barbara Walters interviewed her and asked why she as a woman and queen could not do something to stop the growing number of female killings. Queen Noor indicated that it was not her place to discuss the matter or take action. After the death of her husband Hussein, though, she returned to America and now works to stop female killing—from her office in Washington, DC, where she is protected against retaliation. Considering the geographic location of Jordan and the political atmosphere of the region and the basic Arab culture that permeates the area, it is highly unlikely that there will be a change in the laws any time soon, but the press is reluctant to highlight the issue as it is only semi-free.
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Egypt,
All Islamists, however, were concerned with Islam's role in the complex and changing society of Egypt in the late twentieth century. A common focus of their political efforts has been to incorporate the sharia into the country's legal code. In deference to their increasing influence, the Ministry of Justice in 1977 published a draft law making apostasy by a Muslim a capital offense and proposing traditional Islamic punishments for crimes, such as stoning for adultery and amputation of a hand for theft. In 1980 Egypt supported a referendum that proposed a constitutional amendment to make the sharia "the sole source of law."
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Syria,
The government is actually not bad. Their dictators don’t give a shit about Islam. And yet,
April 10, 2006: Syria's first comprehensive field study of violence against women has concluded that nearly one married woman in four surveyed had been beaten. The study was released last week as part of a report on Syria by the United Nations Development Fund for Women. The stick should not be too big.
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Iraq,
The old strongman didn’t give a shit about Islam. But now that the people are free, they’ll have the government they want:

The Shi’ite slate of candidates for the National Assembly, fresh from their apparently overwhelming victory at the polls, are demanding that the strictures of Islamic law be encoded in the new Iraqi constitution…
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	Originally Posted by larkin To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	most Arab countries for example, to name a few - it's not some evil bogeyman where they stone women to death for being seen in public with a man.

Whatever you say.

	Originally Posted by larkin To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Are you making exceptions or offering disclaimers for all of those countries, too? It almost seems that no matter the number of exceptions, you'll choose to define the religious beliefs of over a billion people however you want to, doesn't it?

What exceptions? But as I’ve said, the discussion here is about the religion of Islam, the direction of whose effect is unmistakable, regardless of your anecdotes.

	Originally Posted by larkin To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Let's be clear about what the debate on this mosque is about … Opposition to the mosque is part of a concerted campaign to demonize one religion.

Islam has demonized itself a thousand times over, for hundreds of years, and now it’s done so to me. I am part of no campaign but my own, and it began the morning of 9/12/2001. This is not a plot. This is spontaneous. I object to Islamic scripture as it is now written. If muslims want happiness in this world, then they need a New Quran.

	Originally Posted by larkin To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	If some people choose to believe it's about how close it is to ground zero, fine, but they should have known that by constantly connecting the actions of terrorists with a major religion two blocks would soon become all of the U.S. Some, like Paul, are fine with that. Others are just useful tools.

That is so backward. Can’t you give a little credit to people’s honest feelings about that place? No evil American plot is required to connect the actions of terrorists with a major religion at the WTC. Nineteen Saudis did that for us.

Of course I’m fine with protesting Islam in every way I can. Near the WTC, far from the WTC. Everywhere in the world. Islam must be corrected. I hope every mosque on earth hears this.

---------- Post added 08-09-2010 at 09:54 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Sulla To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

You're dreaming if you think "Christianity" is defined by the New Testament. The bible was never meant to be anything more than a teaching tool. Early Chrisitanity stole significant portions of it's doctrines from other groups- namely the stoics. Going a little further into the future, it was defined by the will of the Emperor. Then it became defined by who had the biggest army and most political influence. Then later it became defined by incompetent reformers.

That read of history looks a bit addled.

I recommend Gibbon's Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire for a good treatment of the rise of Christianity.

[IrishGuy]

	Originally Posted by Apocynum To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I believe that the author, Salman Rushdie, still lives in hiding. I can find references as recent as 2005 that the fatwa against him has been publicly (re)affirmed. While he is still alive, there have been killings of others associated with the book, including people who have translated it.

Salman Rushdie is not the Danish cartoonist though. If anything these attacks could be used as leverage against the Muslims. I think they have successfully done that at UCI.

Originally Posted by Apocynum To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Some of the problem I have is that Muslims seem even more adverse to criticism, whether from inside or out. Improvement requires (objective) critical analysis and a willingness to accept the results, good or bad of that analysis. And I suppose a willingness to change if it’s bad. The level they go to in silencing (includes murder sometimes-note Rushdie above) their critics really, really implies that they lack intention to even examine, let alone act to change the object of the criticism.

But you're using "they" in a very broad manner. The last few years there have been more Muslims speaking out against all the violence; putting themselves in the line of fire as well. Some of them are beginning to realize that self segregation and extremism is not advantageous to Muslim-Americans.

Originally Posted by Apocynum To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Getting less likely to continue this way. The progressive movement as I see it increasingly attacks and belittles the American culture, at least insofar as they promote and teach every culture but the American one. It may be nothing more than an assumption that it is absorbed from the neither regions of simply being here. But if your culture at home isn’t American because you’re an immigrant and schools, the media, etc. are talking about all the other cultures, how and where is an immigrant supposed to learn it? Within a generation, I think it is possible to lose the culture to an amorphous mass of poorly integrated multicultures (this is not a prediction, just a theory of mine – I also say we’re always just one generation away from the cave, as in collapsing back to it).

Well, an immigrant could learn it by going outside. Muslims still have to go shopping etc. What you're describing has happened throughout history. You don't think Irish immigration changed American culture? What about African-Americans? They have been institutionally and/or self-segregated throughout American history and yet, still function as Americans and do not reflect their African counterparts in many respects.

Another thing to consider would be the rise of Asia. Asia's rise will eventually divert more and more U.S. military resources and may eventually place the Middle-East on the foreign policy/interference back-burner.

Originally Posted by Apocynum To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Now, take into account that there are areas of Muslim immigration in the US which have asked for separate Muslim schools and even for changing the (local) legal systems to Sharia. If allowed, you will not see the integration that has happened in the past. It’s a scary thing too, since Sharia is fundamentally incompatible with the American system, so there is evidence of resistance to integration as well. [I’ll happily start another thread to discuss the incompatibility between Sharia and American legal systems]

If I am not mistaken some Sharia Law principles would violate the constitution and would be struck down by the non-Muslim majority. Mexican-Americans resist integration and demand legal changes as well, but even the 2nd and 3rd generation Mexican-Americans do not resemble their immigrant counterparts.

	Originally Posted by Apocynum To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	That’s good to hear, and not just because they’re Muslim extremists. Wackos of any persuasion need limits; there was a lot of fear of Satanic cults when I was growing up, so use that often to test my positions. Who asked for the ban? Were some of the Muslims involved in the asking?

Here I'll just post the links. The University decided to ban the MSU for UCI policy violations (1 year ban, 1 year probation). If you watch the
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video you'll see that their shouts were not all that coherent and the protest didn't show discipline or principle. The word "Brats" comes to mind. I don't know of any Muslims who came out in support of the ban, but there is strong community support for the ban so far.

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I also want to point out that in that movie that not all of the Muslims are cheering when someone leaves and when the entire group leaves. These are likely the individuals who are going with the flow because of peer pressure. Success against extremism will involve reaching out to those moderates to cultivate Muslims that are solid citizens and role models for other Muslims. I also want to point out that Muslim women tend to be the moderates (IMO). I think it would be easier to integrate them into American society since they have more to gain.

[larkin]

Originally Posted by Paul Siraisi To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I have to admit I know no practicing muslims personally. I've had two Iranian girlfriends, and know a Pakistani or two, none of whom I would ever call muslim. I'm a member of Iranian, Iraqi and Islamic fora like this one, so I hear their views. [...] I was thinking of non-practicing muslims in muslim countries, where I’m pretty sure there is relatively strong pressure to conform (stronger in general than for Christians in Christian countries)....

All I see in this post are variations on the No true Scotsman fallacy.

	Originally Posted by Paul Siraisi To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	That is so backward. Can’t you give a little credit to people’s honest feelings about that place?

People are entitled to their feelings. This thread seems to be all about them, doesn't it?

---------- Post added 08-10-2010 at 08:10 AM ----------

	Originally Posted by IslandHead To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	(mosque->islam-> extremists->9/11).

An understanding that the religious extremists do not represent the whole religion is required if we're to avoid the demonization of a billion people that some so desperately seek. You get the enemies you ask for.

[Paul Siraisi]

	Originally Posted by yoginimama To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	And I'm sure the Yanomamo couldn't have formed their society without it.

Lost me.

	Originally Posted by yoginimama To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	1) And what were medieval Arabs doing when medieval Europeans were running around giving each other the plague, identifying bathing with satanism, and settling theological debates by using forceps on each other's tongues? Ibn Sina, anyone? Saladin?

What they were doing was invading the Near East and North Africa, thereby a) pillaging the Eastern Roman Empire of its Greek knowledge and b) cutting off Western Europe from that same knowledge. Following muslim domination of the Mediterranean, spices, papyrus (as in writing paper), silk, wine and gold all appear to have largely disappeared from Western European commerce (along with their Greek traders).

I'm not sure how thankful we should be to the Arabs for preserving the Greek writings they pillaged. They could just not have pillaged in the first place....

	Originally Posted by yoginimama To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	2) Medieval Europeans were not the only Europeans who behaved like Lord of the Flies. Done any reading on the extreme European depredation of the then-named Belgian Congo?

I lived in the aftermath for 2 years. These days they look wistfully back on Belgian rule. But to your point, read up on Christian accounts from that time to understand my precise point about the role of Christianity in cases like that. Followers of Jesus protested the mistreatment of the poor. Duh. Followers of Mohammed were perfectly happy to enslave the poor (compare Christianity and Islam on the abolition of slavery, while you're at it).


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	Originally Posted by yoginimama To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	It did not happen in 1332. Neither did the insane, savage folly of World War I or the supremacist, totalizing delusions of World War II and fascist Spain. 3) Yet in the middle of all that, there was the Renaissance and the Enlightenment. Hmmm.

Not in the middle, but preceding, and very much due to specific conditions--probably most importantly being the coincidence of both (specific kinds of) knowledge and wealth in the hands of a larger population than had ever been possible in the past. These ages stand out simply because of what preceded them. And the 19th-20th century, while horrifying in the ways you say, was also the most miraculous yet. The downside of the vast intellectual and material power the West developed was the thoughtless wielding of them both (and not just in the West)--just like a teenager with foolish theories, and disproportionate strength.

	Originally Posted by yoginimama To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Could it be that all cultures contain the potential both for sublime realization AND reactionary authoritarianism and superstition? Could it be that these potentials are, in fact, coexistent and in constant conflict with each other, within every culture on earth?

Sure. All cultures must crawl out of their own muck. Not all have done so, and it's not obvious that all can without some drastic re-formulations.

	Originally Posted by yoginimama To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Look at Germany--the country/parent culture of Mozart, Albert Schweitzer, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Schopenhauer, Goethe, Beethoven........and Hitler, Goebbels, Goering, Mengele, and such piteous, tragic wastes of humanity as Irma Grese. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. So...Germany. How shall we judge it? Is it brutish or sublime?

It, like the rest of Europe, has largely overcome its brutishness. This is not true of everyone. The Middle East has never had an Enlightenment. This thread is about a specific phenomenon called Islam--a 7th century warlord's invention which continues to be applied with great vigor to large populations in the 21st century.

Originally Posted by yoginimama To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

If that's what you hear, then get your fingers out of your ears. --Salman Rushdie--Queen Rania of Jordan--"More and More Moderate Muslims Speak Out In Denmark:" To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. ... Here we have an anti-extremist Muslim speaking out BEFORE, not after, 9/11. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. -- To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. An article by a Muslim feminist (Fawzia Afzahl-Kahn) about Muslim feminists. (The roll call: Nawal El Saadawi, Fatima Mernissi, Asma Jahangir, and the members of the Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan [ To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. ])--A video made by Arab pop stars in 2008 called "The Arab Conscience," which calls for an end to religious and nationalistic violence in the Arab world. Read about it here: To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. If you scroll down, you can watch the video.--On that same general topic, you might want to read this: To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. If I could find all this with just five minutes of googling, there is no excuse for you, who seem to have a particular interest in the subject, to be ignorant of the frequent calls for peace and reason from Muslims around the world.Unless you would prefer to remain within the safety and simplicity of your chosen narrative, in which everything bad in western culture is an aberration, while everything bad in Middle Eastern/Arab culture is the telltale heart.

Poor Rushdie, living in constant fear for his life.

Talk is cheap. I will be convinced when I see the Quran revised.

[Monomach]

I do not support building religious buildings of any sort anywhere.

HOWEVER, that is unrealistic. I cannot expect people to go along with that, so...I support the building of that mosque. It's not like it's going to be used by the people who did the deed or attract suicide bombers.

The opposition to this building is almost 100% Christian extremists who are just as dangerous as the folks who hijacked the airplanes. They are in the majority and kill people more often than Muslims, but in smaller numbers. Their killing flies under the radar, if you will. This whole opposition is built on casual hate. It's old, stupid white people who fear brownish people of any ilk. Are Muslims less American than Christians? No, even though the "loving" Christians wouldn't mind a law stating that one bit.

If those silly Christian halfwits were really afraid of every Muslim, they'd all move next door to mosques. Is the big, bad Muslim extremist boogeyman going to fly a plane into a mosque? No. That would make Allah one unhappy mother******. No virgins for that guy.

[LaoTzu]

	Originally Posted by Paul Siraisi To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	The Middle East has never had an Enlightenment.

If it weren't for the middle east, and Islamic scholarship; the West wouldn't be what it is today. Perhaps their role is to carry the knowledge forward; when the brutish West again destroys itself in a fit of egoism and rage? They transmit knowledge. Maybe that's their enlightenment...We'd have been set back 1000 years instead of a few hundred without them.

The Jews were saved by Muslims in Spain from the marauding Christians in the times of the crusades. There was a large Christian population living with Muslims in Palestine before the Jews kicked everyone out in the last century. Muslims protected Jews in France during the Holocaust. Iraq had a large Jewish population until the 60's (one of many Islamic nations with large Jewish populations) to think that Islam is hateful of other religions is a lie created in the here and now to engender hate for the Muslim... it's the latest 'fad' in the world. A thought experiment. A cruel and deathly joke.
There will always be frictions... but nothing on the scale of the lies of 'forced conversions' and the bullshit you hear these days. There will be no end to the stories of how the Taliban shot those Doctors in Afghanistan this week....used to gin up even more support for the Judeo-Christian assault on the "Dirty Arab Brutes" (who sit on the world's power supply)....


Ask yourself who the top arms suppliers in the world are.... and tell me who's "civilized".
Some people get off on violence and war... and It's not the average Arab...
The last century saw more bloodshed than the rest of recorded history all together. A purely Western invention... WWI and WWII. But yeah... they're the civilized ones
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Nukes and Napalm cures what ails ye.

[Sulla]

	Originally Posted by LaoTzu To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	If it weren't for the middle east, and Islamic scholarship; the West wouldn't be what it is today. Perhaps their role is to carry the knowledge forward; when the brutish West again destroys itself in a fit of egoism and rage? They transmit knowledge. Maybe that's their enlightenment...We'd have been set back 1000 years instead of a few hundred without them.

He might actually be right. I don't know if they had an "enlightenment" period. They did have a "Golden Age." That might actually be better... it definitely lasted a lot longer than the Enlightenment did.

	There was a large Christian population living with Muslims in Palestine before the Jews kicked everyone out in the last century.

You need to read up on your history. That isn't how it happened.

	There will always be frictions... but nothing on the scale of the lies of 'forced conversions' and the bullshit you hear these days. There will be no end to the stories of how the Taliban shot those Doctors in Afghanistan this week....used to gin up even more support for the Judeo-Christian assault on the "Dirty Arab Brutes" (who sit on the world's power supply)....

We have significantly more of the world's power supply- more than all the "Dirty Arab Brute" nations combined. It's much less of a Judeo-Christian assault than it is politics that works.

Ask yourself who the top arms suppliers in the world are.... and tell me who's "civilized". Some people get off on violence and war... and It's not the average Arab... The last century saw more bloodshed than the rest of recorded history all together. A purely Western invention... WWI and WWII. But yeah... they're the civilized ones To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Nukes and Napalm cures what ails ye.

This is false. Neither WWI nor WWII were purely Western inventions. I don't see how any person remotely familiar with them could claim this.

[larkin]

	Originally Posted by Sulla To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	We have significantly more of the world's power supply- more than all the "Dirty Arab Brute" nations combined. It's much less of a Judeo-Christian assault than it is politics that works.

While I agree generally with this statement in detail, just to point out a common theme in this thread - when your side goes to war it's self-defense, liberation, or maybe politics through other means. When the other side goes to war it's evidence of their genetic propensity toward violence, religious indoctrination, or thousands of years of tribal brutality. (Let me promise you many Muslims think this about us.)

And side note that underscores are fundamental ridiculousness of such lines of thought - the Taliban aren't "Dirty Arab Brutes" at all. They're Pashtun. (Not that you were suggesting as much, Sulla, but that mistake has been made.) These are the kind of pretty giant mistakes that happens when discussing people we don't know of a religion that spans dozens of cultures, countries, and ethnic groups over multiple continents as uniform.

[Sulla]

Originally Posted by larkin To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

While I agree generally with this statement in detail, just to point out a common theme in this thread - when your side goes to war it's self-defense, liberation, or maybe politics through other means. When the other side goes to war it's evidence of their genetic propensity toward violence, religious indoctrination, or thousands of years of tribal brutality. (Let me promise you many Muslims think this about us.)

Of course, people are self-righteous and hate admitting they screwed up. I'm very skeptical that there have been any real religious wars. The non-religious causes seem so much more compelling and the religious side just an excuse- for both sides. I mean look at the Crusades- they soooo started it and none of them were never about religion. However, it never fails that someone brings them up as and example of Christian extremism.

	And side note that underscores are fundamental ridiculousness of such lines of thought - the Taliban aren't "Dirty Arab Brutes" at all. They're Pashtun. (Not that you were suggesting as much, Sulla, but that mistake has been made.)

I don't know what "Dirty Arab Brutes" refered to. I just assumed he was talking about a "war" on the general area of the Middle East.

[yoginimama]

	Originally Posted by Sulla To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I'm very skeptical that there have been any real religious wars. The non-religious causes seem so much more compelling and the religious side just an excuse- for both sides.

I used to think this way. For example, I took for granted that the Nazi leadership--the people who invented and promoted the ideology/iconography--were cynics. I imagined them in their big Nazi meeting rooms laughing hysterically as they had contests to see which Nazi could come up with better bullshit to feed the deluded masses. "Hey, the Russians are in our way. I know, let's tell the Germans that Slavs are subhuman!" "Good one, Adolf!"

And then I read a biography of Josef Goebbels, and oh Jesus Christ on a pogo stick, the man was serious. He actually believed all that crap he was spewing. And so did everyone else in the inner circle.

I hope you can appreciate the full horror of that statement by Margaret Mead, which progressives keep mistaking for a beacon of hope: "Never doubt that a small band of committed people can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has."

[Sulla]

Originally Posted by yoginimama To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I used to think this way. For example, I took for granted that the Nazi leadership--the people who invented and promoted the ideology/iconography--were cynics. I imagined them in their big Nazi meeting rooms laughing hysterically as they had contests to see which Nazi could come up with better bullshit to feed the deluded masses. "Hey, the Russians are in our way. I know, let's tell the Germans that Slavs are subhuman!" "Good one, Adolf!" And then I read a biography of Josef Goebbels, and oh Jesus Christ on a pogo stick, the man was serious. He actually believed all that crap he was spewing. And so did everyone else in the inner circle.

Your propaganda man is much more effective if he's a true believer. Hitler appears to be not much more than a power hungry man- often times that's more than enough.

I would argue that if you look at Germany before Hitler's rise to power- it's ripe for a nationalistic leader. Germany was untouched by WWI (as a country), yet it gave up tremendous ground in the Treaty of Versailles. All Hitler did was demagogue and fill the void- and honestly thank god he did. If anyone remotely competent had been in charge, Germany wins that war.

Inner Circles aren't your equals- it's for pawns. Well... really good pawns who are maybe 2 squares from being a Queen.

Have you read True Believer? It's a great book.

	I hope you can appreciate the full horror of that statement by Margaret Mead, which progressives keep mistaking for a beacon of hope: "Never doubt that a small band of committed people can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has."

Definitely. I'm also a big fan of:

	Originally Posted by Martin Luther King, Jr.
	Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.

And my Grandfather's variation- "Nothing is more dangerous than an idiot with an idea."

---------- Post added 08-10-2010 at 02:03 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Paul Siraisi To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

What they were doing was invading the Near East and North Africa, thereby a) pillaging the Eastern Roman Empire of its Greek knowledge and b) cutting off Western Europe from that same knowledge. Following muslim domination of the Mediterranean, spices, papyrus (as in writing paper), silk, wine and gold all appear to have largely disappeared from Western European commerce (along with their Greek traders).

Yep- you're right. They weren't developing sophisticated economic theories.

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really was a complete idiot.

	Originally Posted by Wikipedia
	The British philosopher Robert Flint wrote the following on Ibn Khaldun: "As a theorist on history he had no equal in any age… Plato, Aristotle and Augustine were not his peers."

Originally Posted by Ibn Khaldun

It should be known that at the beginning of a dynasty, taxation yields a large revenue from small assessments. At the end of the dynasty, taxation yields a small revenue from large assessments. The reason for this is that when the dynasty follows the ways of Islam, it imposes only such taxes as are stipulated by the religious law, such as charity taxes, the land tax, and the poll tax. These have fixed limits that cannot be exceeded. When the dynasty follows the ways of group feeling and (political) superiority, it necessarily has at first a desert attitude, as has been mentioned before. The desert attitude requires kindness, reverence, humility, respect for the property of other people, and disinclination to appropriate it, except in rare instances. Therefore, the individual imposts and assessments, which together constitute the tax revenue, are low. When tax assessments and imposts upon the subjects are low, the latter have the energy and desire to do things. Cultural enterprises grow and increase, because the low taxes bring satisfaction. When cultural enterprises grow, the number of individual imposts and assessments mounts. In consequence, the tax revenue, which is the sum total of (the individual assessments), increases. When the dynasty continues in power and their rulers follow each other in succession, they become sophisticated. The Bedouin attitude and simplicity lose their significance, and the Bedouin qualities of moderation and restraint disappear. Royal authority with its tyranny and sedentary culture that stimulates sophistication, make their appearance. The people of the dynasty then acquire qualities of character related to cleverness. Their customs and needs become more varied because of the prosperity and luxury in which they are immersed. As a result, the individual imposts and assessments upon the subjects, agricultural labourers, farmers, and all the other taxpayers, increase. Every individual impost and assessment is greatly increased, in order to obtain a higher tax revenue. Customs duties are placed upon articles of commerce and (levied) at the city gates. Then, gradual increases in the amounts of the assessments succeed each other regularly, in correspondence with the gradual increase in the luxury customs and many needs of the dynasty and the spending required in connection with them. Eventually, the taxes will weigh heavily upon the subjects and overburden them. Heavy taxes become an obligation and tradition, because the increases took place gradually, and no one knows specifically who increases them or levied them. They lie upon the subjects like an obligation and tradition. The assessments increase beyond the limits of equity. The result is that the interest of the subjects in cultural enterprises disappears, since when they compare expenditures and taxes with their income and gain and see the little profit they make, they lose all hope. Therefore, many of them refrain from all cultural activity. The result is that the total tax revenue goes down, as individual assessments go down. Often, when the decrease is noticed, the amounts of individual imposts are increased. This is considered a means of compensating for the decrease. Finally, individual imposts and assessments reach their limit. It would be no avail to increase them further. The costs of all cultural enterprise are now too high, the taxes are too heavy, and the profits anticipated fail to materialize. Finally, civilization is destroyed, because the incentive for cultural activity is gone. It is the dynasty that suffers from the situation, because it profits from cultural activity. If one understands this, he will realize that the strongest incentive for cultural activity is to lower as much as possible the amounts of individual imposts levied upon persons capable of undertaking cultural enterprises. In this manner, such persons will be psychologically disposed to undertake them, because they can be confident of making a profit from them.

In fact, let's look at the Enlightenment. Since, you've said that the Islamic world didn't have one. I wonder what they might have to say... Oh wait, Voltaire? What's that?

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

Later, his views were more generous, often praising the relative tolerance of Muslim behavior in the lands they conquered (as opposed the Christian Inquisitions) and the fact that its doctrines were written by its founder himself, not based on hearsay, and had not endured the innumerable changes Christian doctrine had. Le christianisme est la plus ridicule, la religion la plus absurde et sanglante qui ait jamais infecté le monde. (Christianity is the most ridiculous, the religion most absurd and bloody ever infected the world)

He also said "It was not by force of arms that islamisme established itself over more than half of our hemisphere. It was by enthusiasm and persuasion."

Many Enlightenment thinkers study Islam and Islamic regions. Generally, I think it's safe to say they were kinder to Islam than they were Christianity.

[Paul Siraisi]

	Originally Posted by larkin To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	All I ....

Your dishonestly selective quotes are noted.

As for 'no true Scotsman', you get a point for brazenness: In response to my straightforward attack on Islamic scripture, you've gone roving over hill and dale pointing at all the muslims, and even non-muslims, who aren't terrorists. This is like pointing at all the people a serial killer hasn't hurt.

Just a reminder: 911 did happen (twice). Imams do preach murder from the pulpit. Madrassas do churn out suicide bombers. The Taliban are assassinating unbelivers. Women are getting beaten and stoned to death, homosexuals are being thrown off cliffs. Whole populations are being cowed by clerics. All this shit really is happening today, larkin!

What are you going to do about it?

	Originally Posted by larkin To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	People are entitled to their feelings. This thread seems to be all about them, doesn't it?

Murder has a way of riling people up. Go figure. But my point, which you once again sidestep and pervert, is that the protest against this mosque is not, as you announced, an act of calculation.

---------- Post added 08-10-2010 at 07:36 PM ----------

	Originally Posted by LaoTzu To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	If it weren't for the middle east, and Islamic scholarship; the West wouldn't be what it is today. Perhaps their role is to carry the knowledge forward; when the brutish West again destroys itself in a fit of egoism and rage?

Did you bother to read what I wrote about Islamic pillage of the Eastern Roman Empire and suffocation of Western Europe? To repeat, I'm not sure we should thank them.

I didn't really pay attention to everything else you wrote. Don't have the energy to repeat myself for the umpteenth time just now.

[larkin]

	Originally Posted by Paul Siraisi To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	As for 'no true Scotsman', you get a point for brazenness: In response to my straightforward attack on Islamic scripture, you've gone roving over hill and dale pointing at all the muslims, and even non-muslims, who aren't terrorists. This is like pointing at all the people a serial killer hasn't hurt.

Second time you've called me dishonest with no backing for it. And your dismissal of millions, of Muslims as being, well, apostates - even though they self-define, and are defined by others, as Muslim - is the definition of the No True Scotsman fallacy.

	Originally Posted by Paul Siraisi To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Just a reminder: 911 did happen (twice). Imams do preach murder from the pulpit. Madrassas do churn out suicide bombers. The Taliban are assassinating unbelivers. Women are getting beaten and stoned to death, homosexuals are being thrown off cliffs. Whole populations are being cowed by clerics. All this shit really is happening today, larkin! [...] What are you going to do about it?

Yes, religious fanaticism sucks. What I'm doing about it: enough. By choosing our enemies wisely. Certainly not through useless big talk about how some Mosque shouldn't be built somewhere.

	Originally Posted by Paul Siraisi To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Murder has a way of riling people up. Go figure. But my point, which you once again sidestep and pervert, is that the protest against this mosque is not, as you announced, an act of calculation.

So I can tell. Didn't we already go to war over it, twice? When will it be enough?

And the fact that the protest isn't calculated by you doesn't mean that it's not calculated by others, people like Rupert Murdoch and Bill Kristol. That's not even a theory; they're quite explicit about their agenda, which is war in Iran. The angrier people are at Muslims, the easier that is. So your relative lack of calculation doesn't say anything about the protest generally, just makes those without calculation useful tools.

[Sulla]

	Originally Posted by Paul Siraisi To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	As for 'no true Scotsman', you get a point for brazenness: In response to my straightforward attack on Islamic scripture, you've gone roving over hill and dale pointing at all the muslims, and even non-muslims, who aren't terrorists. This is like pointing at all the people a serial killer hasn't hurt.

Wow, you can point out Islamic scripture that say bad things. Want a cookie? As was pointed out by many others, you can do the same thing with Christianity.

	Women are getting beaten and stoned to death, homosexuals are being thrown off cliffs. Whole populations are being cowed by clerics. All this shit really is happening today, larkin!

Are we talking about Alabama? Couldn't resist!

	What are you going to do about it?

I'm not going to put the blame on a religion but the corruption of it, but that could just be me- something about attempting to be rational and all. I know, it's a failing.

	Murder has a way of riling people up. Go figure. But my point, which you once again sidestep and pervert, is that the protest against this mosque is not, as you announced, an act of calculation.

You're absolutely right. I mean, the only reason you are Christian today is because Clovis said "Christian God, if you give me the power to slay my enemies today, I will worship you!"

	Did you bother to read what I wrote about Islamic pillage of the Eastern Roman Empire and suffocation of Western Europe? To repeat, I'm not sure we should thank them.

Europe was a shit hole back then. I don't believe it would be possible to suffocate it at the time.

[yoginimama]

	Originally Posted by Paul Siraisi To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Just a reminder: 911 did happen (twice).

Yes, it did. You will notice, however, that the United States of America remains a free, sovereign nation. The attacks were horrific and inexcusable, but insufficient to threaten our way of life.

	Originally Posted by Paul Siraisi To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Imams do preach murder from the pulpit.

So do Christian pastors in the US. And many American Christians in general are not shy about wanting people to die. Are you aware of the "Pray for Obama: Psalm 109:8" bumper stickers?

Psalm 109:8:

	May his days be few; may another take his place of leadership.

Some following verses, which make it clear that "may his days be few" means "may he die soon:"

	9 May his children be fatherless and his wife a widow. 10 May his children be wandering beggars; may they be driven [d] from their ruined homes. 11 May a creditor seize all he has; may strangers plunder the fruits of his labor. 12 May no one extend kindness to him or take pity on his fatherless children.

	Originally Posted by Paul Siraisi To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Madrassas do churn out suicide bombers. The Taliban are assassinating unbelivers. Women are getting beaten and stoned to death, homosexuals are being thrown off cliffs. Whole populations are being cowed by clerics. All this shit really is happening today...!

Yup, and the Christian Reconstructionist movement is continuing to try to impose "Theonomy" on the United States (including executions of gays and disobedient children), and the Officers' Christian Fellowship and other groups are continuing to try to turn the US military into an evangelical religious army, and Opus Dei is continuing to function as a horrifically destructive cult within the Catholic Church--


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Believe me, Christian extremists do not behave any better than Muslim extremists. The only difference between the west and the Middle East is that western nations have, after long and intense struggle, managed to become (mostly) secular nations, forcing Christian tyranny to step back a bit. Tyrannical, extremist Christian groups, however, are very much hoping to change this and seize and/or return to power so they can transform Europe and the US into Saudi Arabia with snow.

It's not that Islam is "worse" than Christianity. It's that Islam has more political power in certain countries than Christianity does anywhere. And, the dominance of Islam in its region is in part due to US policies in the last sixty years.

---------- Post added 08-11-2010 at 12:53 PM ----------

	Originally Posted by Paul Siraisi To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I'm a member of Iranian, Iraqi and Islamic fora like this one, so I hear their views.

Are you a member of any Christian fora? How do they compare with the Islamic fora?

[Monomach]

Originally Posted by yoginimama To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Believe me, Christian extremists do not behave any better than Muslim extremists. The only difference between the west and the Middle East is that western nations have, after long and intense struggle, managed to become (mostly) secular nations, forcing Christian tyranny to step back a bit. Tyrannical, extremist Christian groups, however, are very much hoping to change this and seize and/or return to power so they can transform Europe and the US into Saudi Arabia with snow. It's not that Islam is "worse" than Christianity. It's that Islam has more political power in certain countries than Christianity does anywhere. And, the dominance of Islam in its region is in part due to US policies in the last sixty years.

True story, and the bolded part deserves special attention.

---------- Post added 08-11-2010 at 07:42 PM ----------

	Originally Posted by themuzicman To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	OK, but there's two parts to this: Whether it's legal (yes), and whether it's appropriate (probably not.) Well, this is across the street. You sure it won't be? The guy building it has ties to terrorist organizations.

...no, it's not across the street. It's two blocks away. The building it's going to replace was a ****ing coat store.

[Paul Siraisi]

	Originally Posted by larkin To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Second time you've called me dishonest with no backing for it.

I gave an example of the technique right at the top of my response.

	Originally Posted by larkin To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	And your dismissal of millions, of Muslims as being, well, apostates - even though they self-define, and are defined by others, as Muslim - is the definition of the No True Scotsman fallacy.

I'm glad you're enjoying your fallacy, but it has to actually apply to a criticism of Islamic scripture. This isn’t about who is following it. It's about what they are following. Pause to recognize that if you don't want to be called dishonest again.

	Originally Posted by larkin To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Yes, religious fanaticism sucks. What I'm doing about it: enough. By choosing our enemies wisely. Certainly not through useless big talk about how some Mosque shouldn't be built somewhere.

You may want at some point to include the religious roots of religious fanaticism in your window shopping.

	Originally Posted by larkin To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Originally Posted by Paul S Murder has a way of riling people up. Go figure. But my point, which you once again sidestep and pervert, is that the protest against this mosque is not, as you announced, an act of calculation. So I can tell. Didn't we already go to war over it, twice?

What, the mosque?

	Originally Posted by larkin To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	When will it be enough?

When the fat lady sings.

Originally Posted by larkin To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

And the fact that the protest isn't calculated by you doesn't mean that it's not calculated by others, people like Rupert Murdoch and Bill Kristol. That's not even a theory; they're quite explicit about their agenda, which is war in Iran. The angrier people are at Muslims, the easier that is. So your relative lack of calculation doesn't say anything about the protest generally, just makes those without calculation useful tools.

So, tell your muslim friends to tell their friends to stop making us angry with their crap scripture, and your little conspiracy will evaporate.

[Monomach]

	Originally Posted by Paul Siraisi To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	So, tell your muslim friends to tell their friends to stop making us angry with their crap scripture, and your little conspiracy will evaporate.

My God could totally kick your god's ass! Your god is stupid and mine is awesome!

I see no way that could turn out badly.
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I really want to hold a good old-fashioned bible burning right now. The way Muslims are being treated by self-identifying Christian Americans is stupid.

[stasis]

	Originally Posted by Monomach To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	The way Muslims are being treated by self-identifying Christian Americans is stupid.

Actually, it's awesome. What could be more elegant than mainstream religious activism playing a galvanizing role in the emasculating of the moral immaculateness of major world religions?

[Monomach]

	Originally Posted by stasis To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Actually, it's awesome. What could be more elegant than mainstream religious activism playing a galvanizing role in the emasculating of the moral immaculateness of major world religions?

Ok, it's awesome when I think about it as a part of the atheist community.

That awesomeness fades pretty quickly when I realize that we are significantly in the minority and have to live among these unbalanced people.

[Paul Siraisi]

	Originally Posted by Sulla To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	"Dirty Arab Brutes"

You've misquoted me in a telling way.

[stasis]

	Originally Posted by Monomach To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	That awesomeness fades pretty quickly when I realize that we are significantly in the minority and have to live among these unbalanced people.

I prefer to think of it as an unholy alliance, poised to do the devil's work. And there's
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a billion atheists out there. Living amongst raving authoritarians becomes easier when they start to lose their unimpeachable moral authority - which is derived politically from the purity of their "true" religious ideas, being completely disconnected from the "fundamental" examples if and only if somebody dies or looks bad on camera - leaving them with raving only.

Islam is not sacred to me. If it is not sacred to you, I say be gleeful at seeing so many people incline to treat it as if were any other political ideology. Egg them on, even. The trajectory is correct.

[larkin]

	Originally Posted by Paul Siraisi To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I'm glad you're enjoying your fallacy, but it has to actually apply to a criticism of Islamic scripture. This isn’t about who is following it. It's about what they are following. Pause to recognize that if you don't want to be called dishonest again.

Pretending your argument has only been about the scripture and not its followers is what's dishonest.

	Originally Posted by Paul Siraisi To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	You may want at some point to include the religious roots of religious fanaticism in your window shopping.

What window shopping?

	Originally Posted by Paul Siraisi To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	So, tell your muslim friends to tell their friends to stop making us angry with their crap scripture, and your little conspiracy will evaporate.

It won't evaporate until they go to war with Iran, which you casually endorse because you think their scripture is crap. Pretty easy to say if you don't have to do anything but sit here and write another post. What a fabulous contribution.

---------- Post added 08-11-2010 at 10:46 PM ----------

	Originally Posted by Paul Siraisi To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	You've misquoted me in a telling way.

He wasn't referring to you, he was referring to a quote from someone else. But pretty telling that you thought it was you.