[Zsych]

I like that idea. A place dedicated to peace, around there, would be nice.
(and it serves well as a 'screw you, we're much more civilized than you are' to the Bin Ladin group
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- just a bit of childishness there)

Typically, a Muslim community center should include a mosque.

	While Westerners who consider themselves chic and enlightened go to any lengths to avoid offending Islam, the Muslim community appears to think nothing of pouring acid in America’s open wounds.

As far as this comment goes though - I doubt that they chose to build it at that location as an insult to anyone.

[Cooper]

	Originally Posted by LaoTzu To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	In the aftermath of 9/11 I personally had pondered the idea that a single building or complex should be built and inhabited by those of ALL the worlds religions where they might mingle and debate in an educated and scholarly manner.... to promote a singleness of purpose between the worlds great religions.

Now, that is a damn good idea!

[larkin]

	Originally Posted by mindstate To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I can't read minds so I can't answer your question. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Why don't you ask the people who are building the Mosque?

You were the one that said they were thumbing their nose at us, but won't say in what way; I'm asking for clarification. You shouldn't need to read anyone's mind to explain that. As below:

	Originally Posted by think To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Larkin, after reading through the posts I find your stance on the whole issue rather ambiguous. With all due respect, will you please make your stance clear. Do you agree with the mosque? Why or why not?

I don't see how I've been in any way unclear, but fine. I think they're welcome to build their mosque wherever is legally acceptable. I don't think it's particularly offensive or inflammatory. Sorry if other people do but that's their issue to work out. It's possible the builders of the Mosque are trying to prove that Islam is alive and well in the U.S. after 9/11, and if it that's the case they're welcome to do so. What's so hard to understand about that?

[phoboser]

	Originally Posted by LaoTzu To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	In the aftermath of 9/11 I personally had pondered the idea that a single building or complex should be built and inhabited by those of ALL the worlds religions where they might mingle and debate in an educated and scholarly manner.... to promote a singleness of purpose between the worlds great religions.

Oh to be a fly on that wall, the wisdom itself would make up for the millions of dollars lost daily from the displacement of practical matters like business, rent, taxes, etc..

	It's pretty evident here that people aren't ready for that kind of thing....

Let's give it a few days.

	Originally Posted by larkin To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	It's possible the builders of the Mosque are trying to prove that Islam is alive and well in the U.S. after 9/11, and if it that's the case they're welcome to do so. What's so hard to understand about that?

So instead of drawing attention to census data with state-of-the-art graphics and up-to-the-minute piety charts, they take the biggest dick move they could have possibly taken. Understood.

[vampyroteuthis]

	Originally Posted by phoboser To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	So instead of drawing attention to census data with state-of-the-art graphics and up-to-the-minute piety charts, they take the biggest dick move they could have possibly taken. Understood.

Because the American public has shown itself to be so receptive to census data?

How is it a "dick move"?

[thod]

I tend to see it from the propaganda perspective. Destroying the WTC, which was the high temple of western capitalism, and replacing it with a mosque is a symbol of the triumph of Islam over the west. Since many see 9/11 as an attack by Islam against the west, it would be affirming its victory. A gesture by the conqueror putting the conquered in their place and affirming his power position.

There are plenty of places to build mosques. After all the uproar, you would think they would back off and choose another place. The question is if the selection of this particular site was a deliberate and calculated move. If so, then it is an aggression and should be opposed.

[Vagrant]

"We do not honor their lives by denying the very constitutional rights they died protecting.""

Sums it up pretty well.

[IrishGuy]

Originally Posted by thod To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I tend to see it from the propaganda perspective. Destroying the WTC, which was the high temple of western capitalism, and replacing it with a mosque is a symbol of the triumph of Islam over the west. Since many see 9/11 as an attack by Islam against the west, it would be affirming its victory. A gesture by the conqueror putting the conquered in their place and affirming his power position. There are plenty of places to build mosques. After all the uproar, you would think they would back off and choose another place. The question is if the selection of this particular site was a deliberate and calculated move. If so, then it is an aggression and should be opposed.

Well, in all fairness ground zero is still an undeveloped parcel of land. We could have easily built or started to build something at ground zero over the last 9 years. Instead, we have chosen to squabble about what the damn building should look like and if this is enough respect to the victims or not etc. The absence of a "beacon of capitalism" at ground zero says more about the United States than it does Islam.

In regard to the mosque containing community center that they are proposing; there is nothing wrong with it in a legal sense. Most of the arguments against the place that I have heard of do not have strong foundations. For instance, some have claimed that allowing the community center to be built is being overly "politically correct." Well, demanding that the community center not be built because it is "offensive" to the victims is a demand for.....political correctness in and of itself. I've also heard that they tried to get the building a "landmark" designation because it was hit by debris in the attack. Sure, let's just designate everything within a 6 block radius of ground zero as a landmark :/

[larkin]

	Originally Posted by Dasein To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Hmm, well I wouldnt say this is a fair parallel to make, nor is opposition to a completely outrageous display of arrogance and smugness "demagoguery." As a matter of fact, I am not tricked by your use of this pedants dream of a word, and in fact I would say building the mosque on ground zero would be a better example of demagoguery than not building the mosque.

I don't see anything approaching an argument here, but the mosque isn't being built on ground zero, so please, stop making inflammatory accusations to appeal to popular prejudices - you know, demagoguery.

	Originally Posted by phoboser To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	So instead of drawing attention to census data with state-of-the-art graphics and up-to-the-minute piety charts, they take the biggest dick move they could have possibly taken. Understood.

	Originally Posted by thod To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Since many see 9/11 as an attack by Islam against the west, it would be affirming its victory. A gesture by the conqueror putting the conquered in their place and affirming his power position.

A.) Some can see it however they want, that doesn't make it so; and B.) By being so obsessed with exactly who the dick is, you've given the the selection of a site in lower Manhattan more power than it possibly would have had otherwise, even in the worst case scenario. Like a kid who shows how insecure they are by constantly worrying they're being disrespected in the most trivial circumstances. It's actually embarrassing - aren't we above this kind of whiny hyperventilating over a complete non-issue? Wishful thinking, I guess.

[mindstate]

	Originally Posted by larkin To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	It's actually embarrassing - aren't we above this kind of whiny hyperventilating over a complete non-issue? Wishful thinking, I guess.

I'm not embarrassed by differing opinions larkin.

It's good to respect other people's point of view without having to change their mind about it or vilify people who disagree with us.

Arguing with others who disagree with our own beliefs is not being open minded. Being intellectually dishonest in a public forum and refusing to hear other people's points of view and invalidating people's feelings is embarrassing behavior though.

[larkin]

	Originally Posted by mindstate To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Arguing with others who disagree with our own beliefs is not being open minded.

If not to debate people with differing beliefs, why are you here?

	Originally Posted by mindstate To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Being intellectually dishonest in a public forum and refusing to hear other people's points of view and invalidating people's feelings is embarrassing behavior though.

I offered several options for what you could have been saying and have now asked you to clarify your views on any number of occasions. You simply haven't, including this latest non-response. How is that refusing to hear anything, much less being intellectually dishonest?

[ElstonGunn]

Regarding the "There are a lot of places to build" idea...

Doesn't this strike anyone as bullshit? I mean, even aside from the fact that they own the land and can do whatever they want with it. If you use that same basic argument in other circumstances, you get statements like, "Why are these negroes moving into my neighborhood? There are plenty of other places for them to live that aren't so offensive to me." Nevermind the fact that the new neighbors in question never did anything to anybody. It's just easier to group them all into a single class and make them deal with your narrow-minded, intellectually lazy, irrationally fearful prejudice.

...Yeah, it's definitely their problem, not yours.

[Apocynum]

Can they build the community center with mosque: they have every right to in this country.

Should they build the community center, with mosque (where they're doing it): No. If it was just a community center, I would feel otherwise. I don't see how they can figure that it will help to heal the injury done to remind people at the ground zero memorial of the inspiration for the attack with an Islamic call to prayer five times every day. Just a couple blocks away is still within audible distance. As well, while it may very well be a minority of muslims that support the attacks, I am disturbed that this building will provide them with a place to rejoice in the attack.

For those who've asked the question about how Islamists could use our freedoms and rights against us, I suggest a book: "Londonistan" by Melanie Phillips. It is a well researched book describing how they have done exactly that in the UK. It was not a quick process and the first signs have begun now in the US.

I am still doing my own research and learning about Islam, it's proponents, it's origins and originating culture, etc. So I am not quite ready to make any judgements on Muslims as a general group. What I have read and observed on my own so far is not heartening. And I am increasingly of the opinion that the citations of peace and unity by prominent Muslims (especially the like of bin Laden as others have already quoted here) strike me a disingenuous and rather remind me of Marc Anthony's "I come to bury Caesar, not to praise him..." speech.

[Pragmatist]

I have two things to say on this topic.

#1. I think it's funny how the constitution has become so selective. The government will step in when it suits them, but when it's risky they cite the constitution. Let me be the first to tell you, personal property doesn't exist anymore, it's just an illusion. If they can search my person, my lap top, my house, tap my phone, etc. without consent then none of those things belong to me. Therefore, regardless of how wonderful the constitution used to be, it doesn't exist anymore. It's just an umbrella for evil at this point. And it's unfortunate that the evil powers that be ONLY seem to use it for the garbage I don't want to see happen. Where there's a will there's a way, it's not about laws, it's about a power struggle. Laws are just there to be leveraged in this or that person's favor through rhetoric and abuse.

#2. I'm sick and tired of hearing all this 'moderate Muslim' talk. My opinion on this topic is simple: If you don't do what your holy book tells you to do, such as kill anyone who doesn't agree with your religion, that makes you a PARTIAL Muslim, not a moderate Muslim. And in that case, the only part of you I like is the part that isn't Muslim. So how in any way shape or form does this imply Islam is anything but what everyone sees it as: a murdering mob of lunatics? You can cherry pick all you want and conveniently leave out the 'bad stuff' but in that case you do not represent Islam you represent yourself as an individual who happens to agree with some aspects of their religion and disagree with others.

It's all so self-contradictory that anyone can justify anything. "An eye for an eye" - "Turn the other cheek". Whatever. Say what you want, but I wouldn't go around calling myself a United States Marine just because I wore a uniform and owned a gun. You're either in or you're out. You do what you're told or you quit. Period. There is no such thing as a "moderate Marine."

P.S. No, I'm not a Marine, it's just an analogy.

[Mullanaphy]

Go for it. Whatever, if people didn't want it built there they should have gone the route of trying to buy the land themselves.

Would I do it if was up to me? Probably not just so I don't have to hear possible gripes about truimphism whether it's justified or not. Especially since in the past Islam has done things of that nature before (building the Dome of the Rock over Jerusalem's second temple).

Still, whatever floats their boat they should build away if that is their prerogative.

[icelandicriot]

	Originally Posted by Feral To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I have yet to really see any Muslims speaking out against the radical ones. In the Quran, it does say that non-believers are devils, and you will be rewarded in heaven if you fight the devils. So while they may not all be terrorists, they certainly aren't helping anything, either.

Feral, with your extensive knowledge of the Islamic religion and the Qur'an, please enlighten all of us with the passages in the Qur'an which state that. Please post it in Arabic since once translated it technically no longer Mohammad's message, so you can also go ahead and post a modest translation. Please also let us all know the context, the time and place where it was written, and the world during that time so we can all better interperate what the Qur'an says.

Chances are, you will misinterperate the Qur'an, much like those involved in 9/11 did.

Also, did you not read the post above that said "I am a Muslim and I do not agree with 9/11 and neither do the majority of Muslims"?

9/11 was the work of mad men. A very small sect of their gross misunderstanding of Islam. The actions of those involved were not Islam. Jihad has nothing to do with blowing up buildings or killing "non-believing devils". Jihad is an internal struggle that Muslims face; it is between God and them.

[Bonamona]

Argh...

Do people realize how easy it is for mad individuals to just carry atrocities under the disguised name of religion when their motivations are most likely linked to greed, politics and insanity?

Some act as if this is America vs Islam. Perhaps you have forgotten the Muslims who also died as a result of 9/11 as well as their loved ones who have cried over their losses. Perhaps you have forgotten the Muslim scholars who rushed to denounce the September 11 attacks. Perhaps you have forgotten the American Muslims who suffered from countless discriminations after 9/11, even though they have nothing to do with the attacks. And to add insult to injury, in spite of some of the best efforts of Muslims in America, it seems everything has to be subject to excessive suspicion. If they make an effort to show Islam as a peaceful religion instead of how Islam was portrayed by extremists, via establishment of a community centre/mosque - (oh have you ever thought that moderate, kind-hearted Muslims in mosques might actually, you know, pray for humanity?) - it's wrong. Oh but if Muslims do/say absolutely nothing about 9/11, then they are supporting terrorists by default. Right. Either way, Muslims are at fault and even when they did not carry out terrorist attacks, they are to be responsible every single time the Islamic ideology gets twisted. Most of the efforts made by moderate Muslims have to be ridiculed regardless of their intentions. Thanks for establishing that.

[zibber]

	Originally Posted by MIKEEEEE To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	there's a synagogue right across west street from ground zero.

The Jews started this whole Abrahamic mess, so let's tear that thing to the ground!

Originally Posted by Pragmatist To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

#2. I'm sick and tired of hearing all this 'moderate Muslim' talk. My opinion on this topic is simple: If you don't do what your holy book tells you to do, such as kill anyone who doesn't agree with your religion, that makes you a PARTIAL Muslim, not a moderate Muslim. And in that case, the only part of you I like is the part that isn't Muslim. So how in any way shape or form does this imply Islam is anything but what everyone sees it as: a murdering mob of lunatics? You can cherry pick all you want and conveniently leave out the 'bad stuff' but in that case you do not represent Islam you represent yourself as an individual who happens to agree with some aspects of their religion and disagree with others.

This becomes relative when you stop to consider that many around you probably do the same with the label "Christian" or "Catholic". And I don't mean kind of the same, I mean exactly the same.

[Vagrant]

	Originally Posted by zibber To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	The Jews started this whole Abrahamic mess, so let's tear that thing to the ground!

Haha, I was gonna say -- if there are churches and cynagogues right across from this place, what's the big frigging deal?

[larkin]

	Originally Posted by Vagrant To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Haha, I was gonna say -- if there are churches and cynagogues right across from this place, what's the big frigging deal?

Oh, the same deal it always is - ratings and click-throughs. Say it's outrageous often enough and a certain number of people are bound to agree.

[ElstonGunn]

	Originally Posted by Apocynum To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	As well, while it may very well be a minority of muslims that support the attacks, I am disturbed that this building will provide them with a place to rejoice in the attack.

Okay, then let's be consistent. No more Christian churches anywhere near where military veterans live, because Fred Phelps is an unhinged asshole. No scientific establishments near where black people live because Watson used his area of scientific expertise as a justification to make a
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about them. No free markets in Chile because Pinochet was a mass murder.

	Originally Posted by Apocynum To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	So I am not quite ready to make any judgements on Muslims as a general group. What I have read and observed on my own so far is not heartening.

I'm sure the Muslim community is anxiously awaiting your approval, and if they don't receive it, they'll just pack it in. "Sorry guys, we had a good 1400-year run, but somebody on the internet looked into us and decided that we're all bad people."

	Originally Posted by Pragmatist To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	#2. I'm sick and tired of hearing all this 'moderate Muslim' talk. My opinion on this topic is simple: If you don't do what your holy book tells you to do, such as kill anyone who doesn't agree with your religion, that makes you a PARTIAL Muslim, not a moderate Muslim.

So because I like pork chops, that means I'm not a Christian. Thank you for clearing that up for me. Where would the world be without people like you who can tell us mere mortals what our beliefs are? Would you mind telling me what I should have for dinner tonight, too? You seem to know what other people should think and do better than they do, so I'd like to take advantage of your great wisdom, if you don't mind.

[Sulla]

	Originally Posted by Distance To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. Are these words meaningful to anyone?

It doesn't say anything about a state though...

I personally don't have much of a problem with the Mosque, but at the same time, the stupidity of building the Mosque there is beyond my ability to describe. It actually reminds me of a something my friends and I have talked about- the difference between being punched, slapped, or spit on.

Getting punched hurts the worst- by far, but we all agreed getting punched was better than getting slapped because it's just that much more disrespectful, but getting spit on... was by far the worst option. We were talking about it in the context of fighting and response. Getting punched may or may not start a fight. Getting slapped almost certainly would. Getting spit on demands blood.

At the end of the day, I can't think of any real good reason that they shouldn't be allowed to build a Mosque there, but that doesn't mean it isn't spitting in the faces of a tremendous number of people. It isn't just a Mosque. It's an Islamic Cultural Center. Where's the funding coming from? The developer doesn't have the most stellar reputation. However, it does seem pretty obvious to me at least this is being done deliberately to spit in our faces. That's fine. Can I have the right to burn images of Muhammed infront of it? Or is offensive burning just restricted to flags and what not?

[yoginimama]

	Originally Posted by Paul Siraisi To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I'm against any construction of any facilities anywhere on earth whose function is to preach fantasy as truth. They should be considered public health hazards, like toxic waste dumps--Islam being by far the worst of the bunch. And no I don't want that near the WTC Memorial.

	Originally Posted by Pachystima To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Would you feel the same if the facilities were christian or Jewish?

Well, he did say "I'm against ANY construction of ANY facilities ANYWHERE on earth whose function is to preach fantasy as truth," so I would imagine that, yes, he would feel the same if the facilities were Christian or Jewish.

Within the limits of understanding that people have the right to build such facilities if they own the land, I agree--but I dispute the claim that "Islam [is] by far the worst of the bunch." Islam as a whole has yet to stage a centuries-long torture-tastic Inquisition and make credible, organized, multigenerational efforts to infilitrate and take over the US government, military and school system:


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	Originally Posted by Bonamona To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I am a Muslim and I don't support 9/11. It's funny that a number of people out there seem to have forgotten that the victims of September 11 have also involved Muslims themselves. ...Another view to consider - the establishment of a mosque might actually deter the zealous religious fanatics from carrying out another attack. And this view is not only held by Muslims.

Yup and yup. Especially regarding Point 2--it is completely against the Qur'an/Hadith for Muslims to wage Lesser Jihad on the United States because the United States is a nation where Muslims can freely practice their religion. For a mosque to be built, and used, near the WTC site is a bold statement that the US is truly serious about freedom of worship. It will stand as a permanent rebuke to anyone who thinks that jihad against the US is theologically justifiable.

	Originally Posted by mindstate To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	It's a group of Islamic people working within interfaith groups thumbing their noses at the US.

I don't think that's true. But even if it is, that is their right as American citizens/permanent residents.

	Originally Posted by Dasein To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	If the mosque is built, it will be a perfect example of a destructive epistemic viewpoint being validated through accusations of ethnic and nationalistic prejudices of the American people. I think the finger needs to be pointed the other way, if we are looking for a demagogue.

I agree that Islam represents a destructive epistemic viewpoint because I believe that all supernatural beliefs represent a destructive epistemic viewpoint.

But if I'm at all understanding the situation correctly, there simply is no legal issue here. The group owns the land/building. Thus, they may build whatever they please as long as they meet local zoning laws. You make it sound like there's an actual question as to whether this group has the legal right to proceed, and they're muscling their way past due process by playing the race and religion cards. I don't think that's the case at all.

	Originally Posted by thod To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I tend to see it from the propaganda perspective. Destroying the WTC, which was the high temple of western capitalism, and replacing it with a mosque is a symbol of the triumph of Islam over the west. Since many see 9/11 as an attack by Islam against the west, it would be affirming its victory. A gesture by the conqueror putting the conquered in their place and affirming his power position.

And if we HAD in fact been conquered by the Taliban, and Supreme Leader Bin Laden had ordered the construction of a mosque AT Ground Zero (not two blocks away), you would have a point.

	Originally Posted by Sulla To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I can't think of any real good reason that they shouldn't be allowed to build a Mosque there, but that doesn't mean it isn't spitting in the faces of a tremendous number of people. ...That's fine. Can I have the right to burn images of Muhammed infront of it? Or is offensive burning just restricted to flags and what not?

You already do have the right to burn images of Mohammed in front of it, as long as you're not actually on their property. Knock yourself out. Burn away.

[Sulla]

	Originally Posted by yoginimama To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	You already do have the right to burn images of Mohammed in front of it, as long as you're not actually on their property. Knock yourself out. Burn away.

You say this, but I'm extremely skeptical that such a protest would not be shut down.

[vampyroteuthis]

	Originally Posted by Sulla To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	You say this, but I'm extremely skeptical that such a protest would not be shut down.

Well, yeah, because the NYPD really don't like arson. But if you got a protest permit and figured something else out that was within the bounds of the law... see how that works?