[INTroJect]

	Originally Posted by Paul Siraisi To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Once you've forced a country to be muslim, the children will be born into it without further force. Islam is the world's fastest growing religion due to the baby-spewing nature of the primitive cultures it has conquered.

And isnt there also something about once land is muslim it is never supposed to go back? I havent found anything like that in the koran yet but I remember someone saying that once. But then someone should account for spain and israel.

[Margot]

	Originally Posted by INTroJect To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Or this? Is she wearing a lettuce bomb? To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Heh, cute. I'm pretty rusty but I think the sign says: Let the love of vegetative nutrition grow in you[r hands]. Looks like she's trying to encourage her fellow Arabs to abandon their halal meat. Kind of amusing to know the Peta activists are quirky the world-over, I guess.

[Takeru]

	Originally Posted by Paul Siraisi To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Once you've forced a country to be muslim, the children will be born into it without further force. Islam is the world's fastest growing religion due to the baby-spewing nature of the primitive cultures it has conquered. Sorry if that troubles sensibilities.

	Originally Posted by INTroJect To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	And isnt there also something about once land is muslim it is never supposed to go back? I havent found anything like that in the koran yet but I remember someone saying that once. But then someone should account for spain and israel.

Again, is that not like what Christianity has become?

There ARE kids who ARE born a Christian.
There HAS been churches built to convert people to Christianity, often saying Christianity is the "right" religion.
There HAS been land fought FOR in the name of Christianity.
People of the Christian faith have often said that they must turn all people to Christianity for salvation
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.

[INTroJect]

	Originally Posted by Takeru To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Again, is that not like what Christianity has become? There ARE kids who ARE born a Christian. There HAS been churches built to convert people to Christianity, often saying Christianity is the "right" religion.

Yes. Im not a christian but there is a big difference between the children who are born in A and the children who are born in B:

	The traditional schools of Islamic jurisprudence are unanimous in holding that apostasy (leaving the religion) by a male Muslim is punishable by death. They differ on whether to execute the apostate immediately or grant the apostate a temporary reprieve in order to allow him to repent and avoid the penalty.

(source:
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	Whoever changes his religion, kill him. - Prophet Mohammed, Sahih al-Bukhari, 9:84:57

So, in other words, if you are born in an officially muslim country, you are by default a muslim. If you decide later that you dont want to be a muslim, the rule is - you die. Perhaps not all islamic countries go for it but many (most?) of them do.

[larkin]

Originally Posted by INTroJect To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Theres nothing vague about being able to speak a language. You either do or you dont to varying degrees. Ability in a language implies that someone can communicate with the native speakers of that language, its also an important indicator if that person has actually absorbed anything while they were there. If someone was in that part of the world, and they dont speak the language, then there is a high probability that person was just sitting around with all the other expats drinking cocktails. Maybe taking a guided tour once in a while.

Speaking of compounding your error, please, don't suggest you know what I was doing there, or how well I know the language, just because I don't reference it in underline italics (I speak Arabic).

	Originally Posted by INTroJect To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Why are you trying to convolute things and pretend that I am making these overencompassing statements? Its simplistic and obvious where you were trying to go with it. Perhaps its time to just admit it and move on.

"Pretend" you're making simplistic statements? I was content to let this be the last word until this:

	Originally Posted by INTroJect To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	So, in other words, if you are born in an officially muslim country, you are by default a muslim. If you decide later that you dont want to be a muslim, the rule is - you die. Perhaps not all islamic countries go for it but many (most?) of them do.

There are plenty of people in Muslim countries who are not Muslim. Maronite Christians in Lebanon, Coptic Christians in Egypt, Druze in Syria to name a few. This is such a laughable statement I don't even know where to start.

All of this is something I wouldn't comment on if it weren't so typical of the discussion on this thread - this is what Muslims are like, because I've flipped through the Koran or spent a couple of months somewhere.

[INTroJect]

	Originally Posted by larkin To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Speaking of compounding your error, please, don't suggest you know what I was doing there, or how well I know the language, just because I don't reference it in underline italics (I speak Arabic).

Give my previous another read. None of it was directed towards you. I'm explaning the difference between someone who can speak the language and someone who cant.

	Originally Posted by larkin To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	There are plenty of people in Muslim countries who are not Muslim. Maronite Christians in Lebanon, Coptic Christians in Egypt, Druze in Syria to name a few. This is such a laughable statement I don't even know where to start.

???

So? I wasn't talking about the minority groups. I was talking about what the instruction is regarding someone leaving the religion. And divine guidance says... "kill them".

Just so that you know...

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The minority groups are a totally different situation and completely unrelated. You should know about this. Im not going to bother explaining it, you can go look it up.

	Originally Posted by larkin To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	All of this is something I wouldn't comment on if it weren't so typical of the discussion on this thread - this is what Muslims are like, because I've flipped through the Koran or spent a couple of months somewhere.

Right-o. Obviously.

[Imperator]

	Originally Posted by Paul Siraisi To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I lived in francophone Africa for 8 years and speak French fluently, plus a bit of Lingala, and have studied two years each of Japanese and Hindi. I can read a fair amount of Spanish.

Nice!

	Christianity, to me (a non-Christian), is better than Islam due to this passage (a better translation of which you are free to provide):

Somehow, I don't think this is the line Christians use when they justify doing evil, terrible things. This isn't the line that gets referenced when one of them blows up an abortion clinic.

Again, that's just from where I'm coming. Talking about whether one is better than the other because of what's in the book misses the point. It's not the good parts they're using to justify genocides.

But that's tangential to the topic.

Back on topic:
Having read a great many objections here, I think I'm almost convinced that the only real course of action is to kill them. All of them.

I mean, they're not gonna stop until they create a world wide Islamic empire, their religion is inherently evil and clashes terribly with Western values, and they are right now working on getting the power to eliminate us. We should kill them all now while we have the edge. Destroy ever vestige of their religion, which is evil and heartless, and wipe every Muslim we cannot convert from the face of the Earth.

If what all you objectors are saying is true about just how evil they really are, isn't this the only realistic long term option? Kill or be killed?

[Margot]

	Originally Posted by INTroJect To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
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I've already made my position clear in this thread and have zero interest in defending a religion when I'd just as soon see it and its sisters go the way of the dinosaurs, but
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in the page you linked seems relevant. And it's not as if anecdotes count for much, but I've actually managed to meet a couple of ex-Muslims. Still kicking! They might have had immigration to thank for that, though I'd imagine there are a number of Muslims in the Middle East who pay half-hearted lip service to their religion but don't practice or care for a good chunk of their scripture's commands. Whether or not they'd be considered "real" Muslims seems to be a linguistic issue, so I'll leave that to others who care.

[Apocynum]

	Originally Posted by larkin To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	All of this is something I wouldn't comment on if it weren't so typical of the discussion on this thread - this is what Muslims are like, because I've flipped through the Koran or spent a couple of months somewhere.

I object to this on personal grounds. I am very much in the process of educating myself, and say so. I cite my sources whenever possible.

That said, I agree that there are far too many that post statements based on little, or no, understanding or research. They're on both sides of any thread, including this one. Ignorant opinions aren't worth the electrons wasted typing them up.

[Paul Siraisi]

Originally Posted by Takeru To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Again, is that not like what Christianity has become? There ARE kids who ARE born a Christian. There HAS been churches built to convert people to Christianity, often saying Christianity is the "right" religion. There HAS been land fought FOR in the name of Christianity. People of the Christian faith have often said that they must turn all people to Christianity for salvation To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. .

What's your point? Mine was that the statement that 'Islam is the world's fastest growing religion' is brazen misinformation about the religion's true popularity.

By the way, here are a
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on the subject of building mosques who usually make me laugh.

A little test that each viewer from this forum can do on hself is to take note of your immediate reaction to what you see and hear, and then compare that to your best available judgment of the meaning of words they have spoken. Do you get a match?

[zibber]

	Originally Posted by INTroJect To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Luckily we know this little goober is trying to tell us something. But we cant always be so lucky. ( Is it me or does that sign look like it was professionally printed?) To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Now, now. No need to start posting photoshops.

---------- Post added 09-03-2010 at 03:01 PM ----------

Originally Posted by INTroJect To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Because the average contemporary Ku Klux Klan member wants to make more average and contemporary Klux Klux Klan members and I would disagree with those ideals just the same. So what if they are not stringing up blacks right now? [...] No its not every muslim, however, the statements in that book are very explicit that, no matter what we do, we are the enemy. We dont need to worry about every current member of the KKK, its just that some of them are going to feel encouraged to take action.

Whence this KKK comparison? The KKK consists of angry white xenophobic men, a very specific group with a very specific agenda. Islam is an umbrella term referring to a wide spectrum of different people (young and old, male and female and so on) with widely differing lifestyles and ideals.

	Originally Posted by INTroJect To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	The problem is with the ideals of the organization.

Sure, I'd say an organization with dubious ideals and members who truly adhere to these can be considered dangerous. That's not to say contemporary moderate muslims (ie the vast majority of practitioners) either have dubious ideals or live up to them, though.

	Originally Posted by INTroJect To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Ever hear of a radical fundamental buddhist terrorist? Perhaps China would make that claim but it would be dubious.

Actually, many centuries ago, when Japanese authorities decided they wanted Buddhism as the national religion, the country was purged of christians, quite violently in some cases. Doesn't that violence "in the name of Buddhism" compare to violence "in the name of Islam"?

Originally Posted by INTroJect To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Im not scared of having been there or having learned the language. Im informed of the situation. If the members of that religion were not memorizing and reciting about how much God hates us and that we should be destroyed, perhaps my sentiments would be more welcoming. And its not just "us" as in "America", its "us" as in "anybody who is not muslim". So atleast they are fair about it. However, the USA/Europe are pretty much the golden prize at this moment in history.

The USA and Europe are both absolutely brimming with muslims. Do you think that if there were any merit whatsoever to your fears, that they would have destroyed the continents already? If all of those people thought these things you think they think, we would surely have noticed by now.

[lurk]

The fact that it's the religious leaders that are leading the calls to jihad certainly plays into people's perception that something about the Islamic religion is at the heart of problem. To wit: (from
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	A well-known Australian Muslim cleric has called for the beheading of Dutch anti-Islamic politician Geert Wilders, a newspaper said on Friday.

[INTroJect]

	Originally Posted by zibber To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Now, now. No need to start posting photoshops.

I got that picture from an article on the BBC website. They are not into photoshopping. But this one isnt from the BBC, does it look fake to you?


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	Originally Posted by zibber To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Whence this KKK comparison? The KKK consists of angry white xenophobic men, a very specific group with a very specific agenda. Islam is an umbrella term referring to a wide spectrum of different people (young and old, male and female and so on) with widely differing lifestyles and ideals.

Two organizations with the same ideals of violence. Lurk makes a strong point with the issuing of orders under the authority of the religion to kill people... from a religion of PEACE? It doesnt matter if all contemporary moderate muslims dont go marching off with sword in hand, the instruction is there and plenty of them follow it. Some members of the KKK choose to be active some choose to be inactive, perhaps they prefer to be lazy. They may personally not believe in doing it, but that doesnt speak for the ideals of the religion.

	Originally Posted by zibber To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Actually, many centuries ago, when Japanese authorities decided they wanted Buddhism as the national religion, the country was purged of christians, quite violently in some cases. Doesn't that violence "in the name of Buddhism" compare to violence "in the name of Islam"?

Ive read buddhist texts and ive read islamic texts. One is glorifying practicioners into killing people, the other is spefically telling them not to do it. I know that you are intelligent and can see that there is an obvious difference there.

	Originally Posted by zibber To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	The USA and Europe are both absolutely brimming with muslims. Do you think that if there were any merit whatsoever to your fears, that they would have destroyed the continents already? If all of those people thought these things you think they think, we would surely have noticed by now.

Europe is getting there but the USA isnt brimming enough, yet. They are having some serious problems over there and its going to keep getting worse.


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(The cops are getting pelted by protesters, someone screaming "lets have a fucking war!" not all KKK members attend violent KKK rallies. At the very least, anyone in that same croud who has someone screaming this is not against the idea.)

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(I LOVE the background music on this one, it makes it all seem so entertaining!)

[Paul Siraisi]

Originally Posted by Imperator To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Originally Posted by Paul S Christianity, to me (a non-Christian), is better than Islam due to this passage [Corinthians 1:13, on Love] Somehow, I don't think this is the line Christians use when they justify doing evil, terrible things. This isn't the line that gets referenced when one of them blows up an abortion clinic. Again, that's just from where I'm coming. Talking about whether one is better than the other because of what's in the book misses the point. It's not the good parts they're using to justify genocides.

The issue (on this old, crowded earth, hopefully with a long future ahead of it) is the relative quantities of good parts and bad parts available for interpretation. To quote myself from elsewhere in this thread:
The big Christian message (regardless of backsliding by individuals and ok the gay thing) is 'Love Thy Neighbor'. The Quran, by contrast, modifies things in basically the opposite direction: Rather than softening the OT's tribalistic harshness and putting it in the background, it projects this forward. The big Islamic message is 'Submit.' One can have all manner of statistical noise in the human behavior that will swarm around these ideological structures, but different orbital patterns are discernable.

Originally Posted by Imperator To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

But that's tangential to the topic. Back on topic: Having read a great many objections here, I think I'm almost convinced that the only real course of action is to kill them. All of them. I mean, they're not gonna stop until they create a world wide Islamic empire, their religion is inherently evil and clashes terribly with Western values, and they are right now working on getting the power to eliminate us. We should kill them all now while we have the edge. Destroy ever vestige of their religion, which is evil and heartless, and wipe every Muslim we cannot convert from the face of the Earth. If what all you objectors are saying is true about just how evil they really are, isn't this the only realistic long term option? Kill or be killed?

Just neuter (edit) the Quran and everything else will fall into place. No need to kill anyone. And yet my words are interpreted as murderous. Strange, isn't it?

[INTroJect]

	Originally Posted by Imperator To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	If what all you objectors are saying is true about just how evil they really are, isn't this the only realistic long term option? Kill or be killed?

Ahh. I just caught this last line. hmmm. No. I dont think that anybody should be killed. Its probably likely that anyone who would be calling for a militaristic solution isnt anti-muslim as much as they are in favor of having an excuse to kill people they dont like.

Personally I dont really know what to do but do nothing and despair over what is happening. Killing antbody, NO. My experience in that part of the world and my observations of the direction that it is going outside are very concerning. The UK has been very welcoming and its not going well, very scary protests and people calling for Sharia law. The larger the numbers, the louder its going to get. Sure theres a voice here and there saying "I am a muslim and I reject violence", but thats not what the religion is saying.

[Imperator]

	Originally Posted by Paul Siraisi To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Just neuter (edit) the Quran and everything else will fall into place. No need to kill anyone. And yet my words are interpreted as murderous. Strange, isn't it?

I'd love to do this to the Bible and every other holy book as well. Hell, I'd settle for just getting rid of the Old Testament.....

Originally Posted by INTroJect To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Personally I dont really know what to do but do nothing and despair over what is happening. Killing antbody, NO. My experience in that part of the world and my observations of the direction that it is going outside are very concerning. The UK has been very welcoming and its not going well, very scary protests and people calling for Sharia law. The larger the numbers, the louder its going to get. Sure theres a voice here and there saying "I am a muslim and I reject violence", but thats not what the religion is saying.

I'm an increasingly militant atheist, so a lot of this is preaching to the choir. I believe every step away from religion is a good one.

However, the facts of the "Ground Zero" mosque make me favor putting it up. The imam is Sufi, it's a multi-cultural center, and the only real argument against is "Muslims are bad".

Plus....law's on their side, and 1st Amendment rights are usually a good thing to uphold.

Bottom line, if we're going to have to put up a mosque, I think I can live with a Sufi one.

[INTroJect]

They definitely should have their mosque.

I do have reservations with this sufi label on it. Maybe the rhetoric sounds nicer and is less direct but its still part of the same "kill anyone who gets in our way or leaves" network. Hopefully someone over there will think to do a printing of the koran with a a blackening out of the parts where it says to enslave/slaughter/dominate/extort the non believers. But, official decrees would follow and they would be killed by the real members of the religion for editing the word of Allah. So the mosque is still a part of it all.

[Imperator]

Originally Posted by INTroJect To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I do have reservations with this sufi label on it. Maybe the rhetoric sounds nicer and is less direct but its still part of the same "kill anyone who gets in our way or leaves" network. Hopefully someone over there will think to do a printing of the koran with a a blackening out of the parts where it says to enslave/slaughter/dominate/extort the non believers. But, official decrees would follow and they would be killed by the real members of the religion for editing the word of Allah. So the mosque is still a part of it all.

It is, but I sorta see it in terms of the difference between your typical small town Christian Church and the Westboro Baptists. Coincidentally it's the guys like Fred Phelps, and the Creationists who actually follow the Bible closer than other Christians.

Interesting note, and this should be fact-checked, but I believe Sufists (Sufies? Sufismists?) don't follow Sharia; they feel they have to go "above" it or something transcendental-like. Haven't read much about it, but from what I've understood Sufism seems to have some parallels to Buddhism.

[INTroJect]

So, probably everyone agrees that they are in the law to put the mosque where it is, thats outside of the debate. We cant force them to build it somewhere else, but seriously, why are they insisting that it needs to go right there? So what if it has a basket ball court, cooking school, swimming pool and pony rides in it...the best part of the building, the top 2 floors - Mosque. This isnt some little dinky project, its huge. And the choice to put it there was not some random decision.

This imam is saying that its for all these lovey-peace-dovey reasons, but its inflaming people at the most, at the minimum they just dont like it. Why keep on insisting that it needs to go there, despite knowing how people feel about it? Moving it uptown would serve the same purpose. In fact, at this point, I would donate to support the project if it were moved to a less offensive area.

My suspicion is that its not just about having a center to support the muslim community, its about putting this center where the "extreme militant islamic fundamentalist" branch of the religion had successfully attacked us. The building was even collateral damage from the attack. They are as free to build it as people unhappy about it are free to give them the middle finger for doing it.

[Booko]

	Originally Posted by INTroJect To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	And isnt there also something about once land is muslim it is never supposed to go back? I havent found anything like that in the koran yet but I remember someone saying that once.

Yeah, well people say grossly nonfactual things daily, so don't believe everything you hear.

---------- Post added 09-05-2010 at 01:30 AM ----------

I believe you mean this:

Narrated 'Ikrima: Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to 'Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn 'Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's Apostle forbade it, saying, 'Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire).' I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'" (Hadith, Bukhari Vol 9)

Some hadith are clear enough, but at other times trying to understand them with so little background is like claiming to understand the Zohar when you know doodles about Judaism.

You can guess which situation I think we're dealing with here.
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	So, in other words, if you are born in an officially muslim country, you are by default a muslim.

No. Completely wrong. If you are born into a Christian or Jewish or Sabean family, then you are not a Muslim. Please Google "People of the Book" and get some correct information on this. Truly, it ain't that difficult.

There are Baha'is in Iran, and they are not "People of the Book" but they are not considered Muslims either. The Powers That Be will do pretty much anything just to get us to call ourselves Muslim. If they assumed we just were they wouldn't have to try so hard, eh?

There are Christians in Syria and have been ever since...Christ. There are Christians in Egypt (cf. "Coptic Church"). There are Jews in various Muslim nations as well.

So obviously just because you're born in a Muslim country does not mean you're a Muslim.

	If you decide later that you dont want to be a muslim, the rule is - you die. Perhaps not all islamic countries go for it but many (most?) of them do.

If you expect this statement to be taken seriously, it would help if you listed some who do and some who do not. Examples are very helpful in situations like this.

Also, please distinguish whether it's something the state takes upon itself or whether it's some sort of local practice that has no force of law (not that that matters much if your dead anyway).

[INTroJect]

Well, its way on the bottom of the list of things that I believe. It actually came from an Israeili Jew as he sat next to me on a flight as he was on his travelling back to Israel. He was saying that it doesnt make sense to muslims that Israel exists because of something or another written in the koran. I havent found anything like what he said but It seemed to him it was to falsify islam and justify what has been going on over there.

[Booko]

	Originally Posted by INTroJect To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Well, its way on the bottom of the list of things that I believe. It actually came from an Israeili Jew as he sat next to me on a flight as he was on his travelling back to Israel. He was saying that it doesnt make sense to muslims that Israel exists because of something or another written in the koran.

I know plenty of Muslims, but it's not something I've heard yet.

I've heard plenty of Muslims complain that just because someone has a Book that says those people lived there thousands of years ago doesn't mean they have a right to waltz in and take over from those who've been living there more recently, but that's a different complaint.

And when I hear that, I usually point them to the Biblical verse that says when the Jews return they won't be leaving again, and ask them what they make of that. It's always interesting to hear what they make of that, since they claim to believe in those verses also at least on some level.

	I havent found anything like what he said but It seemed to him it was to falsify islam and justify what has been going on over there.

If you haven't found anything like it, why spread it around any more than some other sort of gossip? It's one thing to ask if anyone's ever heard the like, but to put it out there like it's a statement of fact, well that's a bit different, eh?

[INTroJect]

Hmmm. Not sure how you got that impression.

	Originally Posted by INTroJect To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	And isnt there also something about once land is muslim it is never supposed to go back? I havent found anything like that in the koran yet but I remember someone saying that once. But then someone should account for spain and israel.

The intention of it was to ask and it looks like a question to me. I was hoping someone would rise out of the cyber-abyss and quote me some Koran verses on the subject.


To all readers: Has anyone reading through or posting in this thread read the Koran?

[larkin]

	Originally Posted by INTroJect To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	To all readers: Has anyone reading through or posting in this thread read the Koran?

Grr. Read the thread. But at the end of the day, if there is a verse in the Koran that suggests Muslim land is always Muslim, that again wouldn't make it any different from the Bible. Surprise, surprise. (It would be particularly ironic for an Israeli to be saying that in disapproval; as Booko pointed out, isn't that exactly the philosophical basis for Israel's founding?)

[void]

	Originally Posted by larkin To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	(It would be particularly ironic for an Israeli to be saying that in disapproval; as Booko pointed out, isn't that exactly the philosophical basis for Israel's founding?)

This is getting off-topic, but no, that's merely the theological basis for Israel's founding, which obviously has no merit. The political basis is far more complex and credible.