[swanhonk]

Given that a society/culture as a whole doesn't prefer one sex over the other (as has been the case in China and India), is it acceptable for its parents to choose the sex of their baby, and if so, under what circumstances? Personal preference? 'Family balancing'? Medical reasons (preventing genetic disorders, etc.) All of the above? Only some of the above? Why?

[GouldFan]

It's not for me to decide whether it's right or wrong, althogh I would preferentially not decide the sex of a baby deliberately. Wanting one sex over the other is a personal choice for the parents, and if the social pressure is too much for them to bear, they may be more inclined to succumb to that pressure just to feel more accepted (and no one can blame them).

In Asian countries, it has been a big problem for centuries and have resulted in girls being discriminated for just being girls. The shortage of women in some countries resulted in 'importing' women from other countries and even that is not enough, considering some people cannot affort to pay for that kind of arrangement. Apparently that system is not working out as well as believed--guys can't get a mate, women are exposed to predators, and the parents who expected a filial son are not getting the return on their investment. In time, the group conscious should work itself out and adjust the proportion accordingly, although it will take too long for that to occur, if it happens at all.

If I had to be a government head in one of those countries, I would advocate as if I strongly believe selective birthing is immoral, in order to prevent possible societal upset arising from disportionately large number of male or female. That does not mean I believe it as a moral principle--it's more for the society as a whole and population demographics planning.

[khadi]

Sex selection is not something I would fight against. I'd judge the parents, certainly, on their reasons for doing it. But I'd rather the child grow up loved.

[plotthickens]

	Originally Posted by swanhonk To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Personal preference? 'Family balancing'? Medical reasons (preventing genetic disorders, etc.)

Medical reasons for fetal preference are usually not about gender selection;
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are usually chosen for immunological matches, not gender preference. They are outrageously expensive and any family that could afford such a savior sib could afford to dower their girl-child; this therefore does not apply to sex-selection via abortion or infanticide. The ethics of this are still being debated, since 40 - 100 foetuses are destroyed to produce 1 savior sib... but not nearly as vehemently as abortions of foetuses by poor people.

"Personal Preference" and "family balancing"... haven't heard of them. Any supporting documentation for what this is, except a cover phrase for abortion and infanticide of unwanted females?

	Originally Posted by swanhonk To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Given that a society/culture as a whole doesn't prefer one sex over the other (as has been the case in China and India), is it acceptable for its parents to choose the sex of their baby, and if so, under what circumstances?

To the contrary: China does prefer one gender over another. India, as well, prefers one gender over another. By tradition, girls need to be dowered and, when married, go to the man's family. They are therefore not helpful to their own families for their adult lives. This was not an issue when many children in a family were birthed and survived; it was a round-robin affair in a village: marry, dower, move; marry dower, move; from house A to B to C and back to A. Additionally, the first born female (in China, not sure about India) was kept with her birth family to help the parents. Females did not bring income. These traditions in both regions were kept, even in the face of the 'one child' laws. Because females were/are poor earners, ultrasound and
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became and continues to be common. This has been going on for three-five decades, leading to a total of about
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.

Monica Das Gupta pointed out that the female-male ratio changed in relation to average household income in a way that was consistent with Sen's hypothesis but not Oster's. In particular, lower household income eventually leads to a higher boy/girl ratio. Furthermore Das Gupta documented that the gender birth order was significantly different conditional on the sex of the first child. If the first child was male, then the sex of the subsequent children tended to follow the regular, biologically determined sex pattern (boys born with probability .512, girls born with probability .488). However, if the first child was female, the subsequent children had a much higher probability of being male, indicating that conscious parental choice was involved in determining the sex of the child.

Worldwide sex ratio at birth: 1.01
China sex ratio at birth: 1.19 (Chinese Academy of Social Sciences)
India sex ratio at birth: 1.12



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Sex ratio by country for total population. Blue represents more women, red more men than the world average of 1.01 males/female.


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Sex ratio by country for population above 65. Blue represents more women, red more men than the world average of 0.79 males/female.


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Sex ratio by country population aged below 15. Blue represents more women, red more men than the world average of 1.06 males/female


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Do not assume sex-selective abortions happen only in China/India;
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Of the conclusions drawn from this reasearch, those most troubling are predictions of increased kidnapping, sex trading, rapes, and other abuses for the women left in these regions. So, NO, I do not thing sex-selecting through abortion or infanticide is a good idea, or anything I could ever do, under any circumstances.

[Olympics2010]

It is never okay for parents to choose the sex of the baby, unless it could magically be controlled before conception this choice, which, it cannot. It is not okay because it is not okay to make this choice on a cultural norm, either. Such a choice surpasses into morals that go beyond cultural values, I think. But, this thought needs more to be said for it, for sure.

[Silverity]

If you want to choose the sex of your child I think your best bet would be to adopt. Sex selection, as previously mentioned isn't necessarily culture bound, and even if it weren't... the West has plenty of culture pockets that do subscribe to sex preference.

Now to clarify, by family balancing do you mean having equal numbers of boy and girl children? That was my take on it. Again, I'd say no to selection via abortion and yes to adoption.

[thod]

If you already have children of one sex, you may well want one of the other. If every family did this, you would end up with balance. Those that do not, having all boys or all girls, would still balance.

The gender is determined by the sperm. As I recall they make sperm swim against an electric field. The leading sperm are male, the trailing sperm female (must be the broader shoulders
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). This can practised without tech. Female sperm live longer. So if you want a boy, make sure you pump some fresh sperm to the egg so that the males reach it first. If you want a girl, make sure the egg emerges into old sperm which will be mostly female.

[Ytterbium]

Originally Posted by thod To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

The gender is determined by the sperm. As I recall they make sperm swim against an electric field. The leading sperm are male, the trailing sperm female (must be the broader shoulders To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. ). This can practised without tech. Female sperm live longer. So if you want a boy, make sure you pump some fresh sperm to the egg so that the males reach it first. If you want a girl, make sure the egg emerges into old sperm which will be mostly female.

When I was in the military the radar technicians tried to scare us. By saying that everyone working on microwave equipment will get daughters.
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Don't know how much truth there is in that statement.

[Storm]

	Originally Posted by plotthickens To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Do not assume sex-selective abortions happen only in China/India

Do not assume that a sex imbalance means it is a result of sex-selective abortions. For instance, Russia here has more women, but Russian culture does not value female births over men. Perhaps men are dying in some other way? Living more dangerous lives? We can't be sure from the raw numbers alone, but sex-selective abortions wouldn't be on the top of the list.

Ok, maybe you were just talking about countries with more men than women. Could it be that women are undervalued and don't receive proper medical care? Perhaps many women die in child birth due to poor knowledge, cleanliness, or medical care? Or, maybe the surveys were self-down and people didn't report all the female members of their household in order to look better. (Studies show people like on polls even if its anonymous). Anyway, again, from raw numbers alone we can not assume sex-selective abortions are the cause for the lop-lopsidedness.

[plotthickens]

Originally Posted by thod To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

The gender is determined by the sperm. As I recall they make sperm swim against an electric field. The leading sperm are male, the trailing sperm female (must be the broader shoulders To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. ). This can practised without tech. Female sperm live longer. So if you want a boy, make sure you pump some fresh sperm to the egg so that the males reach it first. If you want a girl, make sure the egg emerges into old sperm which will be mostly female.

Sperm to make daughters carry a full set of genes -- they're heavier, and last longer. Sperm to make sons carry the truncated male set of genes -- they're lighter, and swim quicker. If you want to have a son, have sex on the day and the day following egg ripening and release. If you want to have a daughter, have sex the 2 days prior: the sperm that would make sons die and all that is left is daughter. This accounts for much of the sex discrepancies in societies where there are religious prohibitions around sex near menstruation.

	Originally Posted by Storm To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Do not assume that a sex imbalance means it is a result of sex-selective abortions. For instance, Russia here has more women, but Russian culture does not value female births over men. Perhaps men are dying in some other way? Living more dangerous lives? We can't be sure from the raw numbers alone, but sex-selective abortions wouldn't be on the top of the list.

Apples and oranges. We know that sex-selective abortions happen in stated societies. As for Russia's sex imbalance,
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is one possible explanation. Also, Hepatitis is spreading at rather alarming rates. Also, gender rates near the poles favor women. Russia is kinda big and there may be many reasons for their slight difference. We know that over 100,000,000 million women are not alive in China, though, due to abortions and infanticide, let me know if you need more links. So: apples and oranges.

	Originally Posted by Storm To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Ok, maybe you were just talking about countries with more men than women. Could it be that women are undervalued and don't receive proper medical care?

That is part of the listed causes of infanticide, as shown in previous links.

	Originally Posted by Storm To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Perhaps many women die in child birth due to poor knowledge, cleanliness, or medical care?

That is "maternal mortality", a different statistic. China's maternal mortality is not significantly different from others on the same level. China's gender distribution is.

	Originally Posted by Storm To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Or, maybe the surveys were self-down

	China sex ratio at birth: 1.19 (Chinese Academy of Social Sciences)

	Originally Posted by Storm To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	and people didn't report all the female members of their household in order to look better. (Studies show people like on polls even if its anonymous). Anyway, again, from raw numbers alone we can not assume sex-selective abortions are the cause for the lop-lopsidedness.

If women were just not being counted, the distribution would not vary so much depending on the age range: sex-selecting abortions came into China in the 1980's. There are no or few missing women in the 40 - 80 year old age range.



Again, please let me know if you need links, and what kind. There are LOTS of articles on this all over the net, it can be rather overwhelming to research.

[NoiseNCold]

People wont be able to chose the sex of their kids soon enough. Chemical components (mainly bisphenol-A and phthalates) that are in the product we use on a daily basis reduce the percentage of chance of having a male baby (it also reduce the fertility of male).

source:
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If we dont pay attention we might have to either: 1) breed babies in laboratories, or 2) return to polygamy (like gorillas) because most male will be infertile and/or the proportion of female will greatly outweigh the proportion of male.

[Pensive]

I'm totally fine with it.

I've always said I never want to have a girl for the following: moods (they would be especially bad most likely if she takes after me and has PMS from hell and gets suicidal every month), the modern world is a lot to handle for a girl now with the corruptions/pressures they have to look a certain way. Though I'm not saying that has not been true for the past thousands of years, I am simly convinced that it is worse due to the media.

Basically it narrows down to what is easier, which, in my opinion, would have to be raising boys.

[plotthickens]

Have you tried raising boys?!?!! Good lord and butter, they are little bundles of crazy wrapped around perpetual-motion machines!

I prefer neither, but if I had to, girls are much easier.

[Night Runner]

I am uneasy about people who would abort a fetus simply because of its sex, but I think it's okay for parents to modify the fetus in question in the early stages of its development to ensure its sex. (Assuming there's a high-tech doohickey that allows them to do just that.) Just think of all the families that could have benefited if the parents could choose the sex of their kids! Some may prefer to raise sons, others would want daughters, and then there are those who would want a girl and a boy. Unfortunately, reality rarely cooperates with such plans, and sometimes you end up with a lifetime of tension and some pretty messed-up kids. (For example, my maternal grandfather always wanted a son, but ended up with three daughters instead. He raised them all as tomboys and they had a hard time fitting in later in their lives.)

[plotthickens]

It would probably be healthier to adjust attitudes towards accepting and loving both (all) genders... than allowing parents in this paternalistic world to choose gender at conception.

[Storm]

	Originally Posted by plotthickens To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Again, please let me know if you need links, and what kind. There are LOTS of articles on this all over the net, it can be rather overwhelming to research.

Oh! You only quoted the charts to show that China's sex imbalance is due to abortions. See, I thought by that by showing a picture of the entire world and saying "Do not assume sec selection happens only in China" that you were extending sex-selective abortions to other places with male imbalances, like the Middle East.

[plotthickens]

	Originally Posted by Storm To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Oh! You only quoted the charts to show that China's sex imbalance is due to abortions. See, I thought by that by showing a picture of the entire world and saying "Do not assume sec selection happens only in China" that you were extending sex-selective abortions to other places with male imbalances, like the Middle East.

Direct quote:

	Originally Posted by plotthickens To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Do not assume sex-selective abortions happen only in China/India; To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Quote from the link:

bias against girls is very evident among the relatively highly developed, middle-class dominated nations (Taiwan, South Korea, Singapore, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia) and the immigrant Asian communities in the United States and Britain. Only recently and in some countries (particularly South Korea) have the development and educational campaigns begun to turn the tide, resulting in more normal gender ratios.