[Skele Drew]

As suggested by the title, there's alot of uncertainty on my end. The INFP is a girl that I've been friends with for roughly four years now, so I'm very comfortable around her. But since sometime last year, I started to really see her in a different light: the potential to be the one for me. So i began dropping hints that I really like her and want to know her in a different light, and it seems to be working.

The first overt hint I remember giving her was last year April when I'd casually (and only half jokingly) said I wanted her to marry me during one of our conversations. We chatted on and off for months to come, mainly via IM, and I think we got pretty close, but I was never sure. We'll have this seemingly "special" (to me) connection once in a while, and another time I'll be TOTALLY ignored, throwing me back to square one. Things got to the point where there were at least two occasions where I really think we were heading for pretty intimate moments, but I either backed down or didn't rise to the occasion fast enough, because I wasn't sure if I was reading the signs right.

Then things seemed to really change this year, throwing me off even more. She's gotten more "social friendly" with me, and I noticed the absence of those little things I always wondered about. Weeks would go by without us contacting each other (I think of her though) and when I do call and say I miss her and when I'll see her, a typical response would be "you'll see me when you see me". However there were a few cases where we spoke on the phone for as much as a couple hours, yet it's just not the same as last year to me.

There have been a couple notable events however. A few months back she was entered (unwillingly, but she respects the persons who did it and went ahead) into a competition - synonymous to "Miss World" - and I went to the practice once (our greeting was really enthusiastic) to support her, and there was this guy there that I'm acquainted with, so I watched the vibes when I noticed they know each other. Walking her to get a cab for home after the practice, I asked about a minor disagreement I noted (she wanted him to source a lip mic for her to use in the competition, but he was acting kinda cagey in getting it). She said he could get it, but he had to drive quite a distance (he has a car), and he was unwilling as the gas was expensive, and she was offering to cover the cost but he refused. When I asked why he'd do that, she told me directly that "he doesn't want to accept money from her because he likes her", and I could only say "oh" and contemplate a while. I'm still wondering now what her motive(s) was/were for telling me that...

Then a couple of months back I took her on a "lunch date", which went pretty well (considering I was really nervous at the beginning - to the point I could hardly eat - and forgot most of my memorized "script"). We had a nice chat with her telling me quite a bit about herself (her diff personalities, approach to things, how she changes when someone starts knowing her, that she'd settle down in about 10 years, etc), and I touched on how I'd really like to figure her out (she said she'd see to it I never do), how her personality affected me (asked me why she had that effect on me, as she doesn't wish to), etc, though there were times of silence when I ran out of things to talk about. She had an appointment after our date, so when we were ready to part ways (and I assured her that I'd be taking her out again, though she said she'd prefer drinks to food) she hugged me and thanked me for the "dinner" (it was lunch to me), and we said our goodbyes.

About a week after that date I was still analyzing it, my behavior and responses, and hers. I even consulted two friends of mine (one's an INTJ, the other INFP) on what I should do about my feelings about her and uncertainty as to if she likes me. The INTJ wasn't very helpful (I have to help her analyze her own r/ship issues anyway), but the INFP friend encouraged me to ask her outright if she likes me, so I eventually (after much cajoling) called her and asked her if she likes me, to which she replied "as a friend" (what I was afraid of hearing), so I asked if she thought there could be more to that in the future: "no" (even worse). I was feeling pretty awkward after that trying to make small talk (while I felt ripped apart inside), luckily my talk time expired then...

I still have hope though, and I intend to pursue her as best as I can. But I would like to know what kinds of thoughts she may be having about me, if she meant what she said, etc. If there's the chance that she really likes me, how do I affirm my r/ship with her so she knows she's under no pressure/obligation (not that she'd submit anyway). If I did (or didn't do) something that caused her to lose faith in me, how do I go about regaining that trust? Her birthday's also coming up and I'm not even sure what I should get her. To complicate things further, I'm probably leaving in little over a month for college, and i won't be back except for the summer holidays and MAYBE Christmas...

[I better try cutting this short now...]

[Lucy Snowe]

I would recommend that you not pursue her at all. It sounds like she might be willing to be friends, but only as long as you accept that she is not at all romantically interested in you. Unless you two always exchange gifts for birthdays, or you are invited to a party and are pretty sure that everyone will be giving gifts, I would skip a gift all together. If either of those is the case, then something inexpensive and not excessively personal. I recommend this, because it sounds like you are kind of scaring her off, and that is probably not your goal. Being away for a while is actually almost certainly a good thing, especially if you can accept that she isn't interested, because that will give you a good chance to move on.

[Alex Leonheart]

I would tend to agree with Lucy. What you describe feels like something that happened with a friend of mine. Especially the growing closer/reaching critical mas and then "missing the moment" to make it work.

The comment on liking "as a friend" and the definite no to possibly more also happened, repeatedly.

My advice would be to stop considering her as a romantic interest or risk driving her away.

I'm still friends with her (with a touch of that old crush lingering, I admit) but I believe that's because I learned not to bother her with it. Pushing your luck or trying to create an elaborate plan to "win her back" is definitely not what you want to do.

PS : reading that post back, I might be coming off pretty cold. You do have all my sympathy for the shared hardship though...

[Ilara]

Originally Posted by Skele Drew To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

About a week after that date I was still analyzing it, my behavior and responses, and hers. I even consulted two friends of mine (one's an INTJ, the other INFP) on what I should do about my feelings about her and uncertainty as to if she likes me. The INTJ wasn't very helpful (I have to help her analyze her own r/ship issues anyway), but the INFP friend encouraged me to ask her outright if she likes me, so I eventually (after much cajoling) called her and asked her if she likes me, to which she replied "as a friend" (what I was afraid of hearing), so I asked if she thought there could be more to that in the future: "no" (even worse). I was feeling pretty awkward after that trying to make small talk (while I felt ripped apart inside), luckily my talk time expired then...

Been there, done that, got the heartbreak.

Look, this is going to sound harsh, 'cause I'm going to give you advice that I wish I had gotten when I was in a similar place a long time ago.

She. doesn't. like. you. romantically. And she probably never will. She's trying to be clear with you about that, and you're just not getting it. Save yourself a long stretch of pain and trying by accepting that.

You say that you're headed off to college in a month. That's great. A change if scenery is what you're going to need. A lot of things change when one leaves home. Make an effort to meet people and socialize once you're there. Study, hang out, have fun--enjoy yourself. You'll feel better about the whole thing as time and life wear on, and college will change you. Fortunately, everybody starts at ground zero socially at college, so you have a chance to make some good friends. Don't worry about hooking up or getting a girlfriend--you're not in a good frame of mind for that. You'll know you're ready when you are, so in the meantime don't stress over it.

I can't emphasize enough that you've received a clear response and that you should take it at face value and move on.

[Calica]

How is her body language around you? Did you ever touch her- accidentally or on purpose? What was her reaction like, did she shrink away from the touch (watch your hand, distance herself) or is she comfortable with it? OR, was she comfortable about it last year, but suddenly (right around the time you realized your feelings) changed?

Sorry to be the bringer of doom and it could be I`m reading her reactions wrong, but as I see it, she`s not interested in you romantically. If she really is INFP, then she probably saw trough your feelings right from the start. We catch the little hints, and often also the ones you don`t send out consciously, and if she decided to ignore them, it means she doesn`t want to pursue this further than friendship. She doesn`t seem to feel the need to see you unless you are the one to initiate it, and even then she`s not really enthusiastic. She told you another guy was interested in her, and I don`t think it was to make you jealous, but to show you that she`s comfortable with you knowing it (or to remind you that) - she considers you a friend. She told you she doesn`t want her personality to affect you. Either she doesn`t like herself, or, more likely, it was another hint that she`s not interested in getting closer to you than she is. She told you pretty clearly, she likes you as a friend. I don`t know if there`s more behind it and what was going on last year, but right now, that`s all there is to it.

INFP`s are honest people, we read emotions and people`s intentions well, but we dislike confrontations. We like for you to take the initiative, but if we`re not interested and drop (what we think are) obvious hints like crazy, then it`s not something we would change our mind about in the near future. Persistence won`t do the magic. I suggest you stop calling her for a while so things cool down and after that, if you`re still up for friendship, let her know.

Again, it could be I`m wrong.

[cannotseethe]

	Originally Posted by Skele Drew To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	But I would like to know what kinds of thoughts she may be having about me

You do:

	Originally Posted by Skele Drew To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	"you'll see me when you see me".

	Originally Posted by Skele Drew To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	asked her if she likes me, to which she replied "as a friend"

	Originally Posted by Skele Drew To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I asked if she thought there could be more to that in the future: "no"

These are not the words of someone who is head over heels for you.

[Minerva]

	Originally Posted by Skele Drew To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	... But since sometime last year, I started to really see her in a different light: the potential to be the one for me. So i began dropping hints that I really like her and want to know her in a different light, and it seems to be working.

I am sorry that I have to be harsh here. She has already said that she likes you as a friend and is not going to see you as something more. What more do you need to move on? Listen to Calica, she is more than likely correct!

Frankly I think your opinion that she is the one is dangerous and I think it stems from your animus.

From Wikipedia (not the most relaible, but sufficient in this case)

The anima and animus in Carl Jung's school of analytical psychology, are the two primary anthropomorphic archetypes of the unconscious mind, as opposed to both the theriomorphic and 'inferior'-function of the shadow archetypes, as well as the abstract symbol sets that formulate the archetype of the Self. The anima and animus are described by Jung as elements of his theory of the collective unconscious, a domain of the unconscious that transcends the personal psyche. In the unconscious of the male, it finds expression as a feminine inner personality: anima; equivalently, in the unconscious of the female, it is expressed as a masculine inner personality: animus.
It can be identified as the totality of the unconscious feminine psychological qualities that a male possesses; or the masculine ones possessed by the female. The anima is an archetype of the collective unconscious and not an aggregate of a man's mother, sisters, aunts, and teachers though these aspects of the personal unconscious can 'influence for good or ill' the person.
Because sensitivity is often repressed, the anima is one of the most significant autonomous complexes of all. It manifests itself by appearing as figures in dreams as well as by influencing a man's interactions with women and his attitudes toward them, and vice versa for females and the animus. Jung said that confronting one's shadow self is an "apprentice-piece," while confronting one's fears is the masterpiece. Jung viewed the anima process as being one of the sources of creative ability.

You feel comfortable with her and you guys may connect well and maybe you are lonely. However, it seems that she is trying to move away a bit from you. How do you think your approach is working?

INTJs can be very stubborn and hardworking and clever coupled with your anything is possible thinking. You may think you can fix this situation into something you want. I am not an expert on all women, but as a woman I will tell you if a woman is not interested in you, you can give her the whole world and she still won't want you, unless of course, she is a gold digger.

Anyway, more fish in the sea!

[Iria]

Having been a her situation before, I agree with the above posters who wrote that if you keep pursuing her she will distance herself from you. That is what I did. And when the guy kept trying, I would become rude or avoided talking to him altogether. You cannot make someone interested in you, especially when they clearly stated they are not, no matter how much you analyze the situation and plan.

Right now, I think the best thing to do is to let go of the idea of a romantic relation with her, otherwise you may lose her as a friend. Maybe she will change her mind in the future, maybe not. -If she does, it will be a happy surprise, if she doesn't, at least you won't be overly disappointed.

[katrin]

I am sorry to hear this, Skele Drew. This is not good news.
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I agree with Calica and others who have said, don't try to woo her. It will only drive her away and possibly even make her lash out at you if you pressure her too much.

I sympathize with your situation, as I was in this situation with a male friend in the past. Here are a some things to think through as you figure out how you want to proceed.

*Rejection by a friend whom one has known for many years is generally a cause for feelings of heartbreak. If this is the case for you, do you think you will be able to go through the grieving process while remaining in touch with her?

*Do you think her friendship is "worth it" to you? That is, do you have a profound connection with her that you value highly for itself, or has connecting with her always been driven by desire for her as a potential lover? I realize that if you remain friends you might only be in touch electronically or over holidays, but if she's on your mind a lot and you are in touch with her at all, these questions still apply.

*Do you think--after grieving if necessary--you will be able to assume the role of friend to this woman with whom you want more? Accepting the role of friend when one wants the role of significant other for many people takes an emotional toll, especially until one finds a happy relationship of one's own.

*If you remain friends with this woman, will you be able to meet other women, date them, and give them a fair chance? Or, will you always be comparing them in your mind to the ideal of this friend?

*If you decide that you do want to be friends with her, will you be able to be unselfish enough and/or do you love her enough to want her to be happy, even if that happiness doesn't and might never include a romantic relationship with you?

*Will you be able to listen to her talk about other men with whom she will become involved or will it pain you too much to hear about them?

After you have thought through these types of questions, if you decide you want to remain friends with her, try to have an honest talk with her in which you offer "no strings" friendship. See how she reacts and listen to what she says regarding what she wants. Her input may cause you to revise your initial decision.

Is it likely that, if you remain friends, eventually she will consider you as a potential S.O.? No, it's not likely but it can and has happened for some people. The problem is that you really shouldn't put your life on hold waiting for that to possibly happen.

The alternative to being friends with her is obviously to cease contact with her, making a clean break as you head off to college. The advantage of this approach is that you will go on with your life with your head less cluttered with stimuli from this girl. Also, you will have time to grow into your own identity even more, making it possible that when/if you run into her down the road--say five or ten years--you both might have changed enough for her reaction to you to be different and perhaps attraction could spark.

Best wishes to you during this hard time.

[Skele Drew]

I've read the responses and understand. However, there are some things that have come to light, and some I (deliberately?) didn't mention (wanted to keep the post a bit short too). I dug into my set of chat logs for my conversations with her, and my analysis has given some revelations. I'm now over 95% sure that she really likes me. Just that I was so blind to all the hints. I'd give her up and try to move on in a heartbeat if she seemed to be distressed/unhappy with my attention, cuz I place her happiness over mine.

For one, I noticed that majority of the conversations (last year) were initiated by HER. Also, as time went on, she added more somewhat sexual innuendos into our convos (I was kinda doing it long before). This feels as if I'm betraying her trust somehow, but I want to provide it (properly edited of course) for analysis and thoughts (how about a grade - x/5, 1 being highest - for my flirting style, and your reason while at it
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?):

Conversation with [INFP] at 17/10/09 22:11:46 on skeledrew (yahoo) (22:11:52) [INFP]: hey how u doing (22:12:43) Skele Drew: hi (22:12:49) Skele Drew: am ok (22:12:57) Skele Drew: and sleepy... (22:13:50) [INFP]: ohhh (22:13:53) [INFP]: poor baby (22:13:54) [INFP]: ohhh (22:13:56) [INFP]: u bed don't like u (22:14:05) Skele Drew: macca [Jamaican slang for thorns...] (22:14:24) [INFP]: they hurt don't they (22:14:40) Skele Drew: like a bitch... (22:15:09) [INFP]: intersting (22:16:03) [INFP]: hey what did u do today (22:16:22) Skele Drew: went to Kingston (22:16:38) Skele Drew: Stella Maris (22:16:51) Skele Drew: had Jamaica Day (22:17:06) Skele Drew: eyes getting kinda blurry... (22:18:05) [INFP]: ok did u have fun (22:18:27) Skele Drew: somewhat (22:18:58) [INFP]: go to bed tell the macca dem to take a break (22:19:45) Skele Drew: maybe you can talk to them for me (22:20:18) [INFP]: sure i'll send a message through my bed...ok (22:20:29) Skele Drew: lol (22:20:34) Skele Drew: hmm (22:20:47) Skele Drew: maybe i could use your bed... (22:22:06) [INFP]: no no no i don't want to have to put any on in the hospital because they want to rush me for them MAN [man, ie. a SO; how's that for an excuse?] (22:22:30) Skele Drew: eh? (22:22:48) Skele Drew: what are these things you speak of? (22:23:01) Skele Drew: i belong to noone (22:23:23) [INFP]: yeh thats what u a=say now!!!!!!!!!!!!! [she doubts me?] (22:24:03) Skele Drew: now? (22:24:07) Skele Drew: meaning? (22:24:26) Skele Drew: that's what i've always said (22:24:34) [INFP]: u know (22:25:00) [INFP]: untill that girl of urs get jealouse and feel like she bad [I was/am single, for quite a while] (22:25:43) Skele Drew: i'll say it again (22:25:46) Skele Drew: i belong to noone (22:26:36) [INFP]: ok baby (22:26:50) [INFP]: i have taken ur word for it (22:27:03) Skele Drew: finally (22:27:11) Skele Drew: ahhh (22:27:51) [INFP]: fell good doen't it (22:28:06) Skele Drew: what? (22:29:08) [INFP]: :-P doesn't it feel good for me to finally take ur word for it (22:29:42) Skele Drew: it sure does (22:30:27) [INFP]: ok so when u going to celabrate (22:30:48) Skele Drew: hmm (22:30:51) [INFP]: whens the party (22:31:05) Skele Drew: depends on when you're available... (22:31:38) [INFP]: to celebrate (22:31:59) [INFP]: hmmmm (22:32:05) Skele Drew: yah (22:32:14) [INFP]: i'll let u know (22:32:33) Skele Drew: as i said, you could lend me your bed... (22:32:49) Skele Drew: since mine's out of commission... (22:33:53) [INFP]: the macca them gone them plan and flight out (22:34:21) Skele Drew: lol (22:34:27) Skele Drew: if you say so (22:35:30) [INFP]: ok honey (22:37:17) Skele Drew: <sigh> (22:37:30) Skele Drew: don't know how much more i can manage (22:37:54) Skele Drew: i'm swaying like a tree in a hurricane (22:38:24) Skele Drew: only a matter of time before i fall off the chair... (22:38:53) [INFP]: GO TO BED!!!!! PLEASE AND THANKS (22:38:57) [INFP]: GOOD NIGHT (22:39:49) Skele Drew: lol (22:39:57) Skele Drew: are you running me? (22:40:47) [INFP]: yes cause u siad u want to sleep (22:41:17) Skele Drew: <sigh> (22:41:24) Skele Drew: ok Babe (22:41:33) Skele Drew: i'll do it (22:41:37) Skele Drew: for you (22:41:56) [INFP]: now go to bed and turn off the computer :-* [was that kiss sent as a friend or meant more?] (22:42:07) [INFP]: good night (22:42:48) Skele Drew: computer goes to bed when it's ready. i don't turn it off (22:43:05) Skele Drew: well, good night (22:43:39) [INFP]: call me 2moro if i don't remember (22:43:40) [INFP]: bye (22:44:15) Skele Drew: k (22:44:22) Skele Drew: toodles [no comment...] (22:45:12) [INFP]: k (22:46:06) [INFP]: u need slepp (22:46:07) [INFP]: sorry sleep

We were both comfortable with the banter, she called me "honey" and "babe" which isn't something she does with just anyone (or me when we just thought of each other as friends). The convo two days after that is pretty long, so I'll just highlight the main points in sequence:

- This convo was initiated by me (and it was a public holiday).

	Conversation with [INFP] at 19/10/09 18:20:47 on skeledrew (yahoo) (21:11:00) Skele Drew: hey (21:11:13) [INFP]: hey babe (21:11:18) [INFP]: whats up (21:11:27) Skele Drew: not much (21:11:31) Skele Drew: what're you up to? ...

- She told me she likes flowers.

	... (21:14:43) Skele Drew: you got a flowers house? (21:14:54) Skele Drew: never thought you were the type (21:15:24) [INFP]: i love flowers especially orchids [I immediately started googling orchids] ...

- I think she was hinting that i buy something for her, and I missed it.

... (21:29:34) [INFP]: cute shades who did u steal them from [she was viewing my IM avatar] (21:29:48) Skele Drew: eh? (21:29:54) Skele Drew: leave ma shades alone (21:30:00) Skele Drew: lol (21:30:32) Skele Drew: that was prob my 3rd or 4th (21:31:02) [INFP]: ok so where is mine (21:31:27) Skele Drew: want me to come help you find it? (21:31:28) Skele Drew: lol (21:31:39) [INFP]: JERK (21:31:44) [INFP]: lol (21:32:02) [INFP]: u r not nice (21:32:05) Skele Drew: they tend to end up hidden in some rather interesting areas... ...

- She also likes candy.

	... (21:51:14) [INFP]: lots of candy (21:51:17) Skele Drew: lol (21:51:23) Skele Drew: that's all you want? (21:51:55) [INFP]: hey i love me some candy [mostly chocalate (21:52:22) Skele Drew: you have a sweet tooth eh (21:52:37) [INFP]: yep (21:52:44) Skele Drew: k... (21:53:40) Skele Drew: hmm ...

- She started laying on the sexual innuendo real thick (alot more than this), but I missed it at first.

... (21:55:25) Skele Drew: i just don't like much sweet stuff (21:55:25) [INFP]: bOOOOOOO (21:55:38) Skele Drew: it makes me sleepy (21:55:53) [INFP]: ok ok ok (21:55:55) Skele Drew: the sweeter it is, the sleepier i get (21:56:32) [INFP]: it does nothing to me i'm all ready hyper (21:56:36) [INFP]: and isn't that thing sweet [never knew what that "thing" was at first] (21:56:56) [INFP]: so the sweeter it is the sooner u go to sleep (21:57:26) Skele Drew: sometimes i can force myself to stay awake (21:57:49) Skele Drew: but i feel all bent out of shape [said not knowing what she meant] (21:57:56) [INFP]: oh u do (21:58:02) [INFP]: poor girl (21:58:09) [INFP]: oh no poor u (21:58:10) Skele Drew: ? (21:58:16) Skele Drew: ... (21:58:23) [INFP]: cause thats the last time u get with that girl (21:58:49) Skele Drew: what's that supposed to mean? (21:59:54) [INFP]: if u don't get ur not going to get it agian (22:00:11) Skele Drew: it's a completely diff story if i'm with someone... (22:00:40) [INFP]: so u say (22:01:17) Skele Drew: lol (22:01:25) Skele Drew: you don't believe? (22:01:39) Skele Drew: why don't we put it to the test? (22:03:20) [INFP]: yehhh sureee (22:03:32) Skele Drew: lol (22:03:44) Skele Drew: i see someone's getting scared... (22:03:57) [INFP]: no no no no nooooooooo (22:04:06) [INFP]: mot in ur wildest dreams (22:04:23) Skele Drew: ? (22:05:37) [INFP]: i'm scared of anyone r anything (22:05:53) Skele Drew: is that so (22:07:25) [INFP]: yes thats so (22:08:10) [INFP]: [INFP] has buzzed you! ...

- She told me she likes me (after a round of VERY childish banter).

... (22:29:48) Skele Drew: you were thinking about it... (22:29:58) [INFP]: no\ (22:30:11) Skele Drew: yes you were (22:30:55) [INFP]: no i wasn't (22:31:51) Skele Drew: yes you were (22:32:28) [INFP]: this can go all night no i wasn't (22:33:21) Skele Drew: do you want it to? yes you were (22:34:10) [INFP]: ur the biggest jerk i have ever senn no i wasn't (22:35:37) Skele Drew: you're the most sadistic person i've ever met. yes you were (22:37:32) [INFP]: don't u love me for it and no i wasn;t (22:39:05) Skele Drew: i'm crazy about you for it and yes you were (22:39:43) [INFP]: poor u (NO I WASN'T) (22:40:28) Skele Drew: so what if i'm poor, YES YOU WERE! (22:41:43) [INFP]: no i wasn't ... [I'll spare you the details of how much of that went on] (22:43:55) Skele Drew: YES YOU WERE (22:44:40) [INFP]: u know i like u [ (22:44:52) [INFP]: ur as stobern as i am (22:45:14) Skele Drew: lol (22:45:17) Skele Drew: I WIN! ...

- She sent me pictures of herself out of nowhere.

... (22:53:14) [INFP]: can i share pics on this thing (22:53:29) Skele Drew: on what? (22:53:37) Skele Drew: my IM? (22:53:40) Skele Drew: nope (22:53:48) Skele Drew: only send them (22:56:06) Skele Drew: what're you up to? (22:57:00) [INFP]: trying to share pics (22:57:12) Skele Drew: with? (23:09:27) [INFP] is offering to send file IMG0026A.jpg [I almost went into shock!] (23:09:59) Starting transfer of IMG0026A.jpg from [INFP] (23:10:28) Transfer of file IMG0026A.jpg (file://C:\Data\Downloads\IMG0026A.jpg) complete (23:11:32) Skele Drew: ok... (23:11:45) Skele Drew: that's the same pic on your FB (23:12:02) [INFP]: yep (23:12:38) Skele Drew: with that sadistic look... (23:13:28) Skele Drew: ah yes (23:13:49) Skele Drew: got more? (23:14:33) Skele Drew: i really dig the one on your IM (23:15:19) [INFP]: what look (23:15:37) Skele Drew: lol (23:16:48) Skele Drew: it's in the eyes (23:16:57) [INFP] is offering to send file S5030147.JPG ...

- We both like manga and anime.

... (00:03:23) Skele Drew: watching Yugioh (00:03:49) Skele Drew: it still not finished? [transferring a few pics] (00:03:54) [INFP]: on what channel (00:04:06) Skele Drew: not TV (00:04:12) Skele Drew: computer (00:04:19) Skele Drew: i have all the episodes (00:04:57) [INFP]: no fear (00:05:17) Skele Drew: lol (00:05:19) Skele Drew: hush (00:05:39) [INFP]: bit me? (00:05:48) [INFP]: bit me!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (00:05:56) Skele Drew: i also have all the Naruto episodes [rubbing it in...] (00:06:09) Skele Drew: lol (00:06:23) [INFP]: GO to HELL (00:06:32) Skele Drew: rofl ...

- She wanted me to know her different sides.

... (00:23:14) Skele Drew: k (00:25:53) [INFP]: have u ever seen me in a dres (00:26:02) [INFP]: dress [she has alot of tomboy in her, always wore jeans pants, ...] (00:26:35) Skele Drew: only the pic that's on your IM ... [some time after, when I saw her, she was ACTUALLY WEARING A SKIRT! she pointed it out to me: "you notice anything different about me?", and no I hadn't till she said it To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. ]

Then I learned from a mutual friend several days ago that she'd called him asking questions about me (a few days before our date). I had also asked him questions about her and he'd said "[INFP]'s marriage material, you just have to get past her shields" (which it seems I'd already unknowingly done). And today he said I shouldn't have told her that I was leaving, as she's now totally on the defensive (even with him), because a while back a guy had left her for overseas and he hadn't returned (how was I to know something like that had happened to her? If I knew, I wouldn't've told her I was leaving on our date). I'm now thinking this has some bearing on her response when I called and asked her the question.

@Lucy: This year, we had a few pretty long chats on the phone, and one thing that she broght up several times was "so... what're you getting me for my birthday" which I think is pretty straight forward.

@Alex: It's not about being cold, it's about being logical and facing the truth. Like it or not.

@Calica: She has no problem with physical contact. I can hug her, play with her side, etc and she has no problem. I do note, however, that just the other day I went to look for her, and i kinda snuck up on her in the bank and poked her in the side (trying to surprise her), and she whipped around and said I wasn't to do that. Told her I was leaving for a weekend trip into the country, and she said I was to take care and not get lost
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. Only spent about a minute with her as the transport was ready to go, and I actually rubbed her side as I left.
Also, she was referring to guys in general who like her. I'm getting the impression that she somehow blames herself for her attractions, as she asked why is it so and what is it about her, to which I could only reply that it's her very personality (and everything else about her) that draws me...

@Minerva: Not as much being "the one" as currently having the GREATEST POTENTIAL of being the one.

@katrin: Her friendship is worth ALOT to me. I really don't think I'll be doing any grieving. I will be able to date other women; I always have other potentials though I don't actively pursue them. It's not as if I fell in love. I think I can only grow to love someone over time if we both think of each other as being potentially compatible, feel the right "vibes" around/for each other, and both of us officially recognize all this, with the decision to proceed with the r/ship. So far, the first two conditions are satisfied for me...

[blueback]

	Originally Posted by Skele Drew To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	...so I eventually (after much cajoling) called her and asked her if she likes me, to which she replied "as a friend" (what I was afraid of hearing), so I asked if she thought there could be more to that in the future: "no" (even worse). I was feeling pretty awkward after that trying to make small talk (while I felt ripped apart inside), luckily my talk time expired then...

That's pretty straight forward.

	Originally Posted by Skele Drew To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I still have hope though, and I intend to pursue her as best as I can. But I would like to know what kinds of thoughts she may be having about me, if she meant what she said, etc. If there's the chance that she really likes me, how do I affirm my r/ship with her so she knows she's under no pressure/obligation (not that she'd submit anyway).

Well, she straight up said you didn't have a chance with her.
In that situation the only thing I can think of is to remain "a friend" with her but start dating other women. Since you two are still friends she'll know all about how successful you are with other women. That alone could help make her want you. If she does decide she wants you, she'll make it known. If not, it will be the final nail in the coffin of what might have been.

But, the good thing is that you'll be meeting other women. New loves are the surest way to purge the control of old loves.

	Originally Posted by Skele Drew To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	To complicate things further, I'm probably leaving in little over a month for college, and i won't be back except for the summer holidays and MAYBE Christmas...

That doesn't complicate things, it simplifies them. The only relationship the two of you have is a friendly one, so that's the only thing you will be able to maintain over long distances. I've been there before. The only long distance relationships I ever saw last were the ones where the two people were practically married before they had to live in different places.

But moving away to college is the perfect opportunity to become more attractive, for a variety of reasons. Take full advantage of them and only good things can happen. Get out and meet new people and you'll see that whatever it was you thought she had that no one else had, it just isn't so. There's no such thing as "the one." Go date 10 other girls and you'll see that compatibility is only a matter of degrees.

[Sulla]

Originally Posted by Skele Drew To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I've read the responses and understand. However, there are some things that have come to light, and some I (deliberately?) didn't mention (wanted to keep the post a bit short too). I dug into my set of chat logs for my conversations with her, and my analysis has given some revelations. I'm now over 95% sure that she really likes me. Just that I was so blind to all the hints. I'd give her up and try to move on in a heartbeat if she seemed to be distressed/unhappy with my attention, cuz I place her happiness over mine.

Hope frequently distorts reason and logic. Be very careful. You're almost certainly reading what you want not what's there. Also, I bolded something important. This is terrible. You need to get yourself out of this.

1.) This is highly suggestive of co-dependency and extremely unattractive.
2.) Related, this is loss of identity issue. You are almost certainly not "you" in this state.
3.) It will distort your logic and rational capabilities.
4.) It's actually quite selfish. You essentially making your happiness dependent on her. That's quite a burden.

	For one, I noticed that majority of the conversations (last year) were initiated by HER.

Largely irrelevant.

	Also, as time went on, she added more somewhat sexual innuendos into our convos (I was kinda doing it long before).

Nothing sticks out on the first log. You should have logged off sooner. Extending the conversation as you did can be interpreted as being clingy. A tell-tale sign that things were not going as well is the amount you were talking. You should be under the 50% mark.

	We were both comfortable with the banter, she called me "honey" and "babe" which isn't something she does with just anyone (or me when we just thought of each other as friends).

Likely irrelevant.

The convo two days after that is pretty long, so I'll just highlight the main points in sequence: - This convo was initiated by me (and it was a public holiday). - She told me she likes flowers. - I think she was hinting that i buy something for her, and I missed it. - She also likes candy. - She started laying on the sexual innuendo real thick (alot more than this), but I missed it at first. - She told me she likes me (after a round of VERY childish banter). - She sent me pictures of herself out of nowhere. - We both like manga and anime. - She wanted me to know her different sides.

Over analysis. With the possible exception of the sexual innuendos, nothing here really supports anything other than friend zone.

	Then I learned from a mutual friend several days ago that she'd called him asking questions about me (a few days before our date).

This could be a positive indicator for what you want. It could also be a negative- she might be trying to figure out whether or not she needs to bring the mace.

	@Lucy: This year, we had a few pretty long chats on the phone, and one thing that she broght up several times was "so... what're you getting me for my birthday" which I think is pretty straight forward.

Straight forward for what?

	@Minerva: Not as much being "the one" as currently having the GREATEST POTENTIAL of being the one.

Drop the idea of "the one." It's not a logical or rational concept. It's an emotional response to a current attraction.

@katrin: Her friendship is worth ALOT to me. I really don't think I'll be doing any grieving. I will be able to date other women; I always have other potentials though I don't actively pursue them. It's not as if I fell in love. I think I can only grow to love someone over time if we both think of each other as being potentially compatible, feel the right "vibes" around/for each other, and both of us officially recognize all this, with the decision to proceed with the r/ship. So far, the first two conditions are satisfied for me...

1.) You are functioning in terms of compatibility but dependency. There's a fundamental difference.
2.) The probability of that you will "grow to love someone over time" as friends and then become more than friends is very slim... or at least that they will reciprocate.

Here's some advice from me and from what others have given me:

1.) Man up. You have a window of opportunity, don't let it pass you by.
2.) Stop paying attention to signals (I wish I came up with this one). Lots of "signals" can be positive or negative depending on what the person is thinking. It can lead to overthinking and you not being "you." Go for what you want. Women aren't the only one who "signal."
3.) Pay attention to answers. Different from "signals." cannotseethe pointed out some excellent examples of this.
4.) Don't do this:

	Then a couple of months back I took her on a "lunch date", which went pretty well (considering I was really nervous at the beginning - to the point I could hardly eat - and forgot most of my memorized "script").

Script? Bad idea. On a scale of 1 to 10, it's a 0. I can tell you this from past experience. Are you even sure this was a date? It isn't that uncommon for men and women to go to lunch and it not be a date. I know this to be true because I did it yesterday with a girl from college.
5.) Date. Practice makes perfe... well... better.

[Alex Leonheart]

	Originally Posted by Skele Drew To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	@Alex: It's not about being cold, it's about being logical and facing the truth. Like it or not.

Don't get me wrong, I was talking about my own post, not yours
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Your post is meant to be analytical and it's actually better that way.

Back on topic :
I used to do that with IM convos too, read and re-read them to find out all the little details. Commendable as it is, I don't think people speak on 20 wavelengths with IM. At most you'll get some innuendos. In trying to find a 3rd or 4th way of reading something you'll just lose yourself in your own head (from experience).

I agree with you, telling her your going away might have had an impact on how she consider you. That doesn't mean it's automatically fixable.
My best bet would be not to pursue her further right now.
Keeping in touch with her over college might do better : a) it doesn't force a long-distance r/ship on any of you and b) it might show her that you won't just bail on her like the other one.

In a nutshell : Keep her as a friend, go to college, meet new people, reevaluate after some time
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[Calica]

If this is what your deep conversations/connection looks like (the IM), I`m not wooed.

Since you`re going away to college, I still recomend you stay friends for the time being. Even if she really does secretly like you and something is holding her back, that something won`t just go away. I don`t know how touchy-feely she is in general, but if she doesn`t shrink away when you touch her, then she at least isn`t feeling uncomfortable about it. But again, could be she`s like that with all friends.

Don`t shut yourself off from other possibilities in college, if you meet an interesting girl, don`t feel guilty towards the INFP or be "faithfull" only to her. She clearly said she wants you there as a friend right now, so be one.
I agree with what Alex Leonheart suggested, stay in contact with her, only time will prove to her that she can count on you not to bail on her. I can`t say it will turn into a romance and it`s entirely possible one or both of you will fall for someone ese in the mean time, but at least you`ll both have someone back home you know you can trust. Actions speak louder than words
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Oh, and the prepared script thing... in the future, forget about that, please. I know it probably makes you feel less nervous if you think you`re prepared, but a confession read like a script doesn`t really make anyone`s knees weak.


Cheers

[katrin]

Reading these IMs, I have to wonder how old is she? How old are you? I am guessing you are both under 25? Hmm. Young INFP females are quite capable of toying around with young men. I did my fair share of that when I was young mainly because I valued romance above more authentic forms of love. Or was afraid of love. Or something like that.

I don't see anything conclusive in the IMs, although I do agree that she is flirting with you. To generalize from the flirting threads I've read here at INTJf relating to introverted intuitives, it seems that some people flirt in earnest while others find it easy to flirt only with those they don't really like. My one friend who tests INFJ/P is a major flirt and flirts with most men whether she likes them or not.

So, yeah. INFPs can be very flirty and often engage in banter of one kind or another (teasing, joking around) with our male friends. I can only speak for myself, not other hetero female INFPs, but I just really like men and find that sort of interplay enjoyable.

The one time when I was young that I shoved a guy away (that is to say, lied about being interested in him romantically) was when I didn't believe his interest in me was as deep as mine for him. He was sort of a playa and I didn't want to be one of many girls in his endless string of "loves".

So to sum up, I don't think her flirting is strong enough evidence to outweigh the negative things she said about only wanting friendship. But time will tell.

Good luck!

---------- Post added 07-04-2010 at 07:36 AM ----------

	Originally Posted by Calica To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	If this is what your deep conversations/connection looks like (the IM), I`m not wooed.

This is a good point, too. I'm not seeing a lot of "N" in these IMs, either.

[Skele Drew]

Thanks for all the well wishes. I will have no choice any way to keeping her as a friend. There's no way that we could in any case start something in this short space of time, with the uncertainties of us being apart for so long. What I want to do is have her know in no uncertain terms that I'm VERY interested in her, and I entertain the possibility of us being together after we leave college (at least for now). But I don't want to do it in such a way that she thinks she's obligated to me in any way (since she tends to blame herself for so many things and thinks of rectifying them).

@Alex: Yes, I was referring to your PS.

@Calica: Sure, I'll try my best to stay in touch with her. Though there's always the possibility of drifting.

@katrin: We are both under 25, actually she'll be turning 20 in the next few weeks...

I still want to get her something for her birthday though. She'd sounded a bit disappointed when I'd told her I didn't know what I was getting her (she kept bugging me about it). I do know she wanted me to get her a Venus Flytrap on one occasion and a rottweiler on another, but that's for the future. I also think back to asking her to be my valentine on 14/2, with her immediate response being "Sure. So where's my chocolate?" (alas it was a Sunday, and we ended up talking about how I'd get it to her, she being willing to direct me to her home, ...).

[Sulla]

Originally Posted by Skele Drew To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Thanks for all the well wishes. I will have no choice any way to keeping her as a friend. There's no way that we could in any case start something in this short space of time, with the uncertainties of us being apart for so long. What I want to do is have her know in no uncertain terms that I'm VERY interested in her, and I entertain the possibility of us being together after we leave college (at least for now). But I don't want to do it in such a way that she thinks she's obligated to me in any way (since she tends to blame herself for so many things and thinks of rectifying them).

I think telling her that is probably a really bad idea. Generally, this is one of the biggest mistakes people who are trying to break out of the friend zone make. It's a dead give away that you can't handle rejection. It is possible to get out of the friend zone- possible not probable- but you'll likely have to do many things you wouldn't want to do. Sorry, man, it sucks.

[Alex Leonheart]

Agreed, the status quo has already been established on her side, not saying anything would actually tell her exactly what you'd want to voice (she already knows you're interested). As an added bonus, it actually show that you can deal with rejection well and won't be pressuring her "needlessly" (from her perspective).

[blueback]

	Originally Posted by Skele Drew To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I will have no choice any way to keeping her as a friend. There's no way that we could in any case start something in this short space of time, with the uncertainties of us being apart for so long.

Exactly. Not to mention she SPECIFICALLY TOLD YOU not to pursue her. Sometimes "no" means "no."
So stop analyzing conversations the two of you had a YEAR ago. Meet new people. Get into a hobby. Join a cause. You have to find something that gives your life meaning BESIDES this girl.

	Originally Posted by Skele Drew To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	What I want to do is have her know in no uncertain terms that I'm VERY interested in her, and I entertain the possibility of us being together after we leave college (at least for now).

I know it hurts when feelings aren't reciprocated.
I know the natural thing to do is avoid pain.
But you're making all the same mistakes every love-sick puppy has made since the beginning of time.

For example, I had a crush on a girl in HS for around 3.5 years. Nothing ever happened. I STILL catch myself (nearly a decade out of HS) wondering if we could have had something, or if we ran into each other again if we'd be able to have something. The reason I still wonder about it is specifically because nothing happened. There's no information, just tantalyzing possibilities, so the void is easy to fill with pleasant fantasies.

Don't waste your time on fantasies.
Go find new people and pretty quickly you'll run into someone who fantasizes about YOU. You won't be able to forget about this girl if you tried, so don't try, but don't keep her at the center of your world. Fill the center of your world with new things and it will bring your pain into perspective, rendering it harmless.

	Originally Posted by Skele Drew To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	But I don't want to do it in such a way that she thinks she's obligated to me in any way (since she tends to blame herself for so many things and thinks of rectifying them).

Seriously, dude, you're rationalizing.
We can't look into a person's head so it's easy to fantasize about what's in there. Maybe she really does love you, or could, and she' resisting, and if you just come up with a magical word formula and deliver it at precisely the right time she'll become as devoted to you as you are to her.

Obviously I don't know this girl, but I do know girls in general. That being said, I'm pretty confident saying that this girl has no interest in falling deeply in love with anyone. She's young, she's probably attractive, and she's got plenty of time to fool around and sample all life has to offer before she gets tied down with a permanent relationship.

Originally Posted by Skele Drew To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

She'd sounded a bit disappointed when I'd told her I didn't know what I was getting her (she kept bugging me about it). I do know she wanted me to get her a Venus Flytrap on one occasion and a rottweiler on another, but that's for the future. I also think back to asking her to be my valentine on 14/2, with her immediate response being "Sure. So where's my chocolate?" (alas it was a Sunday, and we ended up talking about how I'd get it to her, she being willing to direct me to her home, ...).

Dude, if the two of you are exchanging gifts and having long conversations and lunch dates, and you're NOT having sex, you've either both agreed to wait until marriage or you're never going to be more than friends. There isn't anything in between.

Is it so hard to believe that this girl likes the feeling of someone being devoted to her, and taking her b******t feelings as seriously as she does, and likes to buy her things, and thinks about her all the time, but has no interest in taking it any further? What's simpler, that she's secretly torturing herself by being so close to you but not consumating it, or that she knows if she lets you touch her waist every now and then you'll always be available when she wants to feel important?

Here's the reality: not only is your behavior not doing you any favors with this girl, it's not helping you with any of the other girls you know. Go to college. Meet a whole new group of people. Get intimate with new girls. Find something important to do with your life. Learn how to pair a blazer with jeans. Backpack through a foreign country. Start a business with some classmates. Do anything except pine over plain-jane, standard manipulative HS relationship. Fill up your life with things that are meaningful to you, so that you find yourself too busy to worry about crushes, and you'll all of a sudden find girls coming after you. And a few of them will be just as significant as whatever you think you might have had in HS.

There is nothing attractive about a person loving you if they don't have to give anything up to love you. Love means putting someone else's life ahead of your own. BUt if your life has nothing in it, giving it up isn't a sacrifice. You have to be able to be happy all on your own before anyone's going to care that you love them.

I mean, you can't even manage to muster up any passion for this girl! How can you claim to be so enamored of someone and yet still care more about your own feelings than their feelings? If you were self-sacrificing you MIGHT be able to stir up some feelings in her. Declare your undying love for her in a publicly humiliating way (humiliating for you) instead of forgetting what you wanted to say at lunch. Shower her with gifts instead of being unable to decide on the perfect gift. Champion whatever bogus cause she thinks is important to the world instead of keeping your eyes on her at all times. Not putting yourself out there, not putting yourself at risk, means that you don't care about how you make her feel, you only care about yourself. Have you ever seen a parent go to extreme lengths to entertain their children, even doing prat-falls and whatnot that hurts, or acting like a retard in a restaurant, all just to get the kid to giggle? That's a person who honestly cares more about another person's feelings than their own.

All you've demonstrated so far is that you want this girl to make you feel good, not the other way around.

[Gobbbler]

Move on. You are going to college. I know that you are all caught up in this girl right now, but in college you will be surrounded by wonderful new girls and it is likely that many will be interested in you. If you're longing for her, you are just going to miss out. I knew many friends in college who had high school girlfriends. Of the 30-40 high school girlfriends or boyfriends people had, only one couple worked out. Everyone broke up and started seeing someone in college. Several of them even married that first college girlfriend, many more married someone else they met in college. This girl has said she isn't interested, take her at her word for it and go live your life. She may like you as a friend and like your attention, but you're going to meet amazing girls in college.

[LadyInHeels]

Yeah, if she says no- she means it.

You can and will do better.