[SeaCzar]

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about an execution to be held this evening in Utah. Ronnie Lee Gardner is to be executed by a firing squad. I am not against the death penalty, and an execution is an execution, so I have no qualms about this.
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Thoughts and comments from other forum members?

[Seriously]

I don't have a problem with it. I did find the "Death Watch" to ensure the prisoner doesn't commit suicide a bit ironic.

[Distance]

I have no problems with Capital Punishment since there's no doubt he committed at least one murder if not two. The firing squad was chosen by Gardner, probably for unknown reasons although it's pretty obvious why. They should retroactively ban this form of execution since it might be traumatic to the death squad.

[Monte314]

In military firing squads, one of the rifles is loaded with a blank, so each member knows that there is a possibility that they did not have a hand in the execution.

[Holiman]

I am against the death penalty, not because of any qualms about killing a bad person. I have some seriouse issues with the death penalty as its used in the US.

1. Its used as a political tool
2. It is never 100% accurate, the number of death row inmates found innocent alone show its faults are overwhelming. Not to mention the number of male and black death row inmates and convictions compared to white etc.
3. The cost of the death penalty is outrageous its much more cost effective to keep them in prison for life.
4. The punishment cant fit the crime, revenge is not the states role nor should we attempt to legislate it.
5. (forgot about his one /slaps forhead) I am entirely against the state having the right to end life.

That being said it doesnt matter to me how he dies, I find little sympathy for him nor do I think this person is innocent.

[Syler]

	Originally Posted by Holiman To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	3. The cost of the death penalty is outrageous its much more cost effective to keep them in prison for life.

Could you elaborate this, if you don't mind? It seems you have given some thought and research to the topic. I admit to knowing nothing about the cost of death penalty, but it seems illogical that sustaining someone until their death (with all the food, space, laundry, etc. involved) and then disposing of their body is more cost effective than simply killing them and disposing of their body.

[Holiman]

There are hundreds of different web sights and groups Ill boil it down to the basics.

Higher costs in court for trial.

Multiple appeals.

Seperation of death row inmates from prison population.


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[Pachystima]

	Originally Posted by Monte314 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	In military firing squads, one of the rifles is loaded with a blank, so each member knows that there is a possibility that they did not have a hand in the execution.

Anyone with the least bit of experience with firearms can tell the difference between having fired a blank and a live round simply by the level of recoil. I have heard the one-blank-round theory before, starting when I was in the army 50 years ago. While I can't refute it, I simply doubt that it would be an effective way to assuage "guilt". One thing I have noticed over the years is that there is seldom a shortage of people willing to pull the trigger or to hold the rope. For this reason, I doubt that the blank round idea would even be necessary.

[Elfrun]

	Originally Posted by Pachystima To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Anyone with the least bit of experience with firearms can tell the difference between having fired a blank and a live round simply by the level of recoil.

The article states:

	One gun will have been loaded with a dummy - probably wax - bullet, which is said to deliver the same recoil as a live round.

[Dasein]

Originally Posted by Holiman To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I am against the death penalty, not because of any qualms about killing a bad person. I have some seriouse issues with the death penalty as its used in the US. 1. Its used as a political tool 2. It is never 100% accurate, the number of death row inmates found innocent alone show its faults are overwhelming. Not to mention the number of male and black death row inmates and convictions compared to white etc. 3. The cost of the death penalty is outrageous its much more cost effective to keep them in prison for life. 4. The punishment cant fit the crime, revenge is not the states role nor should we attempt to legislate it. 5. (forgot about his one /slaps forhead) I am entirely against the state having the right to end life. That being said it doesnt matter to me how he dies, I find little sympathy for him nor do I think this person is innocent.

OOOOH I wanna play refute the argument! Da Da Da Da
1, Maybe, but what is not?
2. STRAWMAN. There is little direcrt racial discrimination in sentencing of those arrested and convicted of murder.Empirically, statistics have shown the opposite of your argument to even be true. People who murdered whites are considered more likey to get capital punishment than murderers of blacks. If anything, then, black victims are less vindicated than white victims. Most black murderers kill blacks.
Therefore, black murderers are more often spared the death penalty than white murderers.
Furthermore,
Some inequality is unavoidable as a practical matter in any system. If unequal justice is the best we can do, is still better than injustice.
3. Irrelevant. I care not about cost, I care about justice.
4. Punishment is not intended to revenge, offset, or compensate for victims suffering. Punishment is to vindicate law and social order upset by the heinous crime committed. Ex. a kidnappers conefinement isn't limited to the period he imprisoned his victim.
5. The difference between exEcution and murder are clearly defined; Murder is unlawful and undeserved, and execution is lawful and deserved.
6. The state should have the right to take away a persons autonomy for the duration of their lifespan, but not to end a life? Loss of autonomy is a life without dignity. As Kant would say, execution is actually an affirmation of the murderers humanity; It affirms his rationality and the responsibility for his actions.

[Hctim]

If a man murders a boy, and the murder is caught on tape or there is some way to be sure that the man committed the murder, and that boys father kills the man, how is this in anyway different from the death penalty. The father than goes to jail for murder, even though he's just acted out "the law". No person has the right to choose who lives or dies, thats why murder is one of the worst crimes committed, but how then does anyone else have the right to choose if a murderer gets murdered. Dressing it up and calling it lawful is just a way of satisfying a culture. People scream for the death penalty not for justice but for revenge.

I've never agreed with any form of death penalty, regardless of how it's acted out. If the firing squad is something the people are forced to do then thats sick. Likewise, if they elect to be on the squad then they're sick.

But we all have differing opinions... largely to do with how your culture works

[zippikay]

gone is the day when death penalty was economical and cheap... it used to be a tree and a rope or a sharp blade... now, it takes several trained people, several guns, several bullets, lights, etc. Such inefficiencies...

[Dasein]

Originally Posted by Hctim To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

If a man murders a boy, and the murder is caught on tape or there is some way to be sure that the man committed the murder, and that boys father kills the man, how is this in anyway different from the death penalty. The father than goes to jail for murder, even though he's just acted out "the law". No person has the right to choose who lives or dies, thats why murder is one of the worst crimes committed, but how then does anyone else have the right to choose if a murderer gets murdered. Dressing it up and calling it lawful is just a way of satisfying a culture. People scream for the death penalty not for justice but for revenge. I've never agreed with any form of death penalty, regardless of how it's acted out. If the firing squad is something the people are forced to do then thats sick. Likewise, if they elect to be on the squad then they're sick. But we all have differing opinions... largely to do with how your culture works

Execution is hardly dressing something up and calling it lawful. How can you not see the distinction between murder and execution?Thats like failing to draw a distinction between sex and rape.Then again, in some cultures rape is okay, too.
Damn us backwards hillbillie cowboy Americans and our funny tricks with language.

[Blse]

Actually sounds like a good idea. Seems humane - the person is killed pretty much instantly. Wondering why we don't use this technique more often.

[phoboser]

	If a man murders a boy, and the murder is caught on tape or there is some way to be sure that the man committed the murder, and that boys father kills the man, how is this in anyway different from the death penalty.

It's different from the death penalty because its allowance would encourage vigilante justice, which would make society more dangerous for everybody. He might be sure because he has recorded evidence, others might be "sure" because they have a gut feeling or a notoriously unreliable eyewitness account.

	The father than goes to jail for murder, even though he's just acted out "the law"

He acted in accordance with what he felt was the "spirit" of the law, but he actually broke the law. The law is ultimately intended to make society safe and social interaction trustworthy, he violated the spirit in that sense in addition to violating the technical law.
But there is one weakness in the ability of the justice system to accurately apply justice that's especially relevant here: the jury. Some of his peers might agree with his understanding of the "spirit" of the law and a verdict might not be reached. I don't know what happens in this case.

[Ryujin]

In theory the jury is the only one who can fairly deal out justice. So if there's convincing evidence of the guy the father shot being guilty, he'd be punished for taking things into his own hands, but the jury would probably buy a temporary insanity defense and he'd get off pretty lightly for killing someone.

I also wonder why some of the more humane methods aren't use more often, I've heard lethal injection is actually pretty painful, the victim can not be completely unconscious and it induces a cardiac arrest (ouch). Firing squad, if done properly should be instantly lethal (bullets to the head ideally). Very messy however and I don't think people like that. Lethal injection looks pretty peaceful for the victims family or whoever is watching. Flying brains might not be quite as popular.

[Holiman]

	Originally Posted by Dasein To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	OOOOH I wanna play refute the argument! Da Da Da Da

Ok feel free.

	Originally Posted by Dasein To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	1, Maybe, but what is not?

Rather flippant of you here, if you want to refute an argument 'thats just how life is' doesnt hold much intrest. Nor does that argument lead towards anything worthwhile.

	For example, federal habeas corpus relief was granted to Tony Amadeo in 1988 when it was shown that the Georgia prosecutor in his case had secretly directed jury commissioners to under-represent African Americans in the jury pools.

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Originally Posted by Dasein To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

2. STRAWMAN. There is little direcrt racial discrimination in sentencing of those arrested and convicted of murder.Empirically, statistics have shown the opposite of your argument to even be true. People who murdered whites are considered more likey to get capital punishment than murderers of blacks. If anything, then, black victims are less vindicated than white victims. Most black murderers kill blacks. Therefore, black murderers are more often spared the death penalty than white murderers. Furthermore, Some inequality is unavoidable as a practical matter in any system. If unequal justice is the best we can do, is still better than injustice.

Unless somehow I have misunderstood the meaning of
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I dont think I have attempted one. I have given a ground for my statement about the death penalty. Now since most people have understood the racial undertones of our judicial system I am suprised you seem to have jumped into this as if I stated ' blacks are treated unfairly by the judicial system ' I never did you just seem to have assumed this, which tells me many things.
Now onto some facts.

	A review of the federal death penalty by the Justice Department, released on September 12, 2000, found numerous racial and geographic disparities. The report revealed that 80% of the cases submitted by federal prosecutors for death penalty review in the past five years have involved racial minorities as defendants.

	"In 82% of the studies [reviewed], race of the victim was found to influence the likelihood of being charged with capital murder or receiving the death penalty, i.e., those who murdered whites were found more likely to be sentenced to death than those who murdered blacks." - United States General Accounting Office, Death Penalty Sentencing, February 1990

Studies which examine the relationship between race and the death penalty have now been conducted in every active death penalty state. In 96% of these reviews, there was a pattern of either race-of-victim or raceof- defendant discrimination, or both. Approximately 35% of those executed since 1976 have been black, even though blacks constitute only 12% of the population. The odds of receiving a death sentence are nearly four times higher if the defendant is black than if he or she is white.

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Simple your ok with these kinds of inequalities I am not, however since you care so little about equal justice and are fine with 'the best we can do' I am sure you wont carp on about justice later.

	Originally Posted by Dasein To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	3. Irrelevant. I care not about cost, I care about justice.

Oh guess you will anyways. You dont care about cost then why care about justice at all ?
Cost is probably the biggest factor in the judicial system and its many problems. The number of murders commited by felons on parole or probation. The number of early parole probations handed out from prison overcrowding etc. Our system is broken and the death penalty is just a pathetic attempt to make people think the system is actually doing something worthwhile.

	Originally Posted by Dasein To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	4. Punishment is not intended to revenge, offset, or compensate for victims suffering. Punishment is to vindicate law and social order upset by the heinous crime committed. Ex. a kidnappers conefinement isn't limited to the period he imprisoned his victim.

How utterly naive, I am sure you shouldnt believe this since its fantastical in the extreme. Laws are neither vindicated nor diminished by killing people, there is no social order reset by removing someones right to life. Where is the vindication if your wrong ? How is social order kept when the chance of an innocent person having his life taken is a real posibility.

	Originally Posted by Dasein To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	5. The difference between exEcution and murder are clearly defined; Murder is unlawful and undeserved, and execution is lawful and deserved.

I can think of many many types of executions that are unlawful and undeserved there is no difference the number of people who agree about murder its still wrong. If a person cant decide to end a life what gives 12 people in a room the right ? I dont think the goverment should have that kind of power.

	Originally Posted by Dasein To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	6. The state should have the right to take away a persons autonomy for the duration of their lifespan, but not to end a life? Loss of autonomy is a life without dignity. As Kant would say, execution is actually an affirmation of the murderers humanity; It affirms his rationality and the responsibility for his actions.

I never had a 6th so I guess this is still part of 5. Prison is not a good choice but it offers the best of all alternatives most importantly the chance to correct a miscarriage of justice that the death penalty does not.

[Ytterbium]

Why kill someone if you can turn a life to a living hell? I'm not pro capital punishment obviously.

I can't help wonder if someone took aim at the head. To find out if hed had the blanks or not.

[phoboser]

	Approximately 35% of those executed since 1976 have been black, even though blacks constitute only 12% of the population.

You're using the wrong denominator. The correct denominator if you want to show racial bias in the application of capital punishment is the percentage of crimes eligible for capital punishment where blacks were the offenders. To give you an idea of what that might be - in 2008, blacks comprised 36.5% of all murderers.
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If your intention was to argue against capital punishment because social factors exist that disproportionately victimize blacks thereby causing them to commit disproportionately more murders, hence, a disproportionate number of black murderers are in fact victims of pernicious social forces and therefore do not deserve execution, couldn't that argument also be made against imprisonment?

[Pachystima]

	Originally Posted by Ytterbium To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I can't help wonder if someone took aim at the head. To find out if hed had the blanks or not.

Any reasonably experienced shooter can tell the difference between different bullet weights in a particular firearm and I am certain that anyone selected for a firing squad is reasonably experienced. A wax bullet would be substantially lighter than a copper-jacketed lead bullet and would create much less recoil. I am pretty sure that the individual who fires the "wax" blank is aware of it.

I don't think that the "wax" bullet is used to create uncertainty in the minds of the firing squad, rather, it is used to create uncertainty in the minds of those who might later judge members of a firing squad.

I also suspect that anyone who would volunteer for a firing squad would be disappointed to find that they were the one with the "blank"

[Ytterbium]

	Originally Posted by Pachystima To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I also suspect that anyone who would volunteer for a firing squad would be disappointed to find that they were the one with the "blank"

Hence aiming at the head would've been more disappointing.
I know blanks weigh less but in a gun I can't recall it feeling any lighter. I blame on my N.

[TheLastMohican]

	Originally Posted by Dasein To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	People who murdered whites are considered more likey to get capital punishment than murderers of blacks. If anything, then, black victims are less vindicated than white victims. Most black murderers kill blacks. Therefore, black murderers are more often spared the death penalty than white murderers.

Where did you get this information?

[Pensive]

Oh my gosh... The other day I talked to a guy who was friends with him in prison.

He said his friends dying tomorrow.
I'm sorry.
Then he said, na, he deserves it.

He was a total creeper.

Anyways, I'm against taking the freedom to be away. Go ahead and take the freedom to act away.

[Tristan]

Originally Posted by Dasein To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

4. Punishment is not intended to revenge, offset, or compensate for victims suffering. Punishment is to vindicate law and social order upset by the heinous crime committed. Ex. a kidnappers conefinement isn't limited to the period he imprisoned his victim. ... 6. The state should have the right to take away a persons autonomy for the duration of their lifespan, but not to end a life? Loss of autonomy is a life without dignity. As Kant would say, execution is actually an affirmation of the murderers humanity; It affirms his rationality and the responsibility for his actions.

Interesting thought on Kant. I think the death penalty humanizes the victim, as well, though. Maybe you are right in #4 that the death penalty is not about compensating for the victim's suffering; however, nothing else acknowledges the value of a human life (specifically, the murdered victim's life) like the death penalty does. When we hand out life in prison to a first-degree murder case, we compartmentalize, dehumanize, and discard the victim. His or her life wasn't worth meting out the maximum punishment.

[Holiman]

Originally Posted by phoboser To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

You're using the wrong denominator. The correct denominator if you want to show racial bias in the application of capital punishment is the percentage of crimes eligible for capital punishment where blacks were the offenders. To give you an idea of what that might be - in 2008, blacks comprised 36.5% of all murderers. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. If your intention was to argue against capital punishment because social factors exist that disproportionately victimize blacks thereby causing them to commit disproportionately more murders, hence, a disproportionate number of black murderers are in fact victims of pernicious social forces and therefore do not deserve execution, couldn't that argument also be made against imprisonment?

My point is much less focused than your question to be honest. The fact that race does effect the question of if the death penalty is sought either the race of the accused or the victim doesnt matter which leads to questionable outcomes. The fact that some DA's go to the extreme effort to load jury pools with less diversity brings up the convictions of one race by a jury that consists entirely of another.

My point is that until justice is perfect then sentencing someone to death is without merit or common sense. Justice based upon emotion is no different than lynch squads as I see it.