[plotthickens]

Many... or most... of the most vocal anti-abortionists out there are women. The continuance of the traditions of Female Genital Mutilation are entirely enforced by older females who were cut (men are not allowed).

These views, which refuse girls and women ownership of their corporeal selves, promulgated by those who have been forcibly indoctrinated in same, seem related to me. One is a girl too young to understand being cut; the other is a woman old enough to make a decision being stymied. It makes me sad.


[HIDE="Disturbing frst-hand account of FGM at 5 years old"]

To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Brought up in a Muslim community in Senegal, Salimata Badji-Knight was circumcised when she was five. She now lives in London and works as an advocate for Forward in the UK.

"When it happened I was five, and I didn't even know this practice existed. I was taken off with my cousins and other girls that I knew – we thought that we were going to a party. I was reassured because so many people I knew were there. Then the atmosphere changed, and the adult women became more aggressive. They took one of the girls away, and I heard her scream – I was the 20th girl to be taken, so I heard that scream over and over again. I heard them saying 'No, don't cut me', but I didn't know what they were cutting.

"Then it was my turn. I didn't know what was happening, but it hurt so much I thought that I was going to die. They must have used a knife but I couldn't see it. It felt like having all of your nails ripped off at the same moment. There was no anaesthetic. Physically, it took a long time for me to heal. Every day when I have a shower I am reminded of the fact that I have been mutilated.

"We need to stop this practice; it is terrorising people for life. I visited my father and explained what had been done to me. He cried and vowed that no other girls in the family would have this happen to them.

"For a long time, I didn't want to talk about what happened to me, but if it will help one person to put down the knife, I'm happy to tell my story."
[/HIDE]

What do you think?

[Cooper]

Why is this done? To what end?

[plotthickens]

Refusal of abortion rights is apparently done out of some religious basis. I think it's the same for FGM, though it's also to ensure the woman, through non-pleasurable/painful/impossible sex, is a virgin to the marriage bed and, later, does not stray from her husband.

[Cooper]

That has to be one of the stupidest things I have ever heard. What is the logic that says a guy will not want a women that has been cut before marriage, but would have no problem with it after marriage? That is, ....moronic.

[plotthickens]

Makes no sense to me either, but

	An estimated 100 to 140 million girls and women worldwide are currently living with the consequences of FGM.

[Vagrant]

Sounds kinda like the binding of feet thing in China.

In other words, a medieval, stupid practice.

[VagrantChord]

Disgusting, barbaric and repugnant. I don't think I'll ever understand the savagery and brutality our species is capable of inflicting upon one another, especially in the name of religion. I fear if I ever do come to understand, I'll become inured to it. Then, I'll know I've truly lost my humanity.

/hangs head in sadness

[Night Runner]

	Originally Posted by Cooper To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	That is, ....moronic.

	Originally Posted by Vagrant To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	In other words, a medieval, stupid practice.

	Originally Posted by VagrantChord To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Disgusting, barbaric and repugnant.

Now that we've all agreed that female genital mutilation is a moronic, medieval, stupid, disgusting, barbaric and repugnant practice, can we please agree that male genital mutilation (more commonly known as circumcision) is just as bad?..

It too serves no apparent purpose, reduces the amount of pleasure, hurts like hell, and is rooted in religion.

[Elfrun]

^ exactly. It cultural, just like male circumcision.

The American Academy of Pediatrics has just moderated its policy on female circumcision to allow doctors in the US to perform a "ritual nick" on young girls.

Full policy details
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
.

The idea is these parents will take their young girls back to Africa for a more severe form of mutilation than what can happen in a sterile environment, so "compromising" is a better option. The policy statement then goes on about how there is evidence that medicalising the procedure could prolong the custom (citing Egypt) and that criminalising the procedure could lead to abandonment of the tradition (citing Scandinavia).

Meanwhile African States are attempting to get the UN to ban the practice,
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
.

US has taken a step backwards.

It's not just about the girls of the current generation whose parents hold strongly to the traditions and wish to have the procedure done where ever they can, it's about how long it will take to stop the custom. Allowing that "small nick" may do more damage than they are attempting to stop, as the OP suggests.

[admittedheretic]

	Originally Posted by Night Runner To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	It too serves no apparent purpose, reduces the amount of pleasure, hurts like hell, and is rooted in religion.

It does prevent infection though .

[Elfrun]

	Originally Posted by admittedheretic To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	It does prevent infection though .

How many other body parts could get infected so are removed at birth? There's no medical problem that needs to be fixed, it's ritualistic without purpose.

[Night Runner]

	Originally Posted by admittedheretic To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	It does prevent infection though .

And castration reduces the risk of testicular cancer by 100%!
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

[admittedheretic]

	Originally Posted by Elfrun To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	How many other body parts could get infected so are removed at birth? There's no medical problem that needs to be fixed, it's ritualistic without purpose.

The body part of concern does not get removed. The surgery itself is also a risk. I'm not saying anything implicit. I just recall having a discussion about this in a philosophy class and there was some published journal with research showing that the removal of the foreskin resulted in less infections of some sort. /intp moment

	Originally Posted by Night Runner To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	And castration reduces the risk of testicular cancer by 100%! To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

The consequences of castration do not compare to those of circumcision.

[Vagrant]

	Originally Posted by admittedheretic To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	The body part of concern does not get removed. The surgery itself is also a risk. I'm not saying anything implicit. I just recall having a discussion about this in a philosophy class and there was some published journal with research showing that the removal of the foreskin resulted in less infections of some sort. /intp moment

Primarily because it's a lot easier to clean. Sort of like the difference between washing your hands and cleaning your nails -- most of the crap is under your nails.

[Night Runner]

	Originally Posted by admittedheretic To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	The consequences of castration do not compare to those of circumcision.

The few questionable benefits of circumcision do not compare to its drawbacks. Chopping off any part of one's body could be justified post facto, given enough time and resources.

[Vagrant]

	Originally Posted by Night Runner To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	The few questionable benefits of circumcision do not compare to its drawbacks. Chopping off any part of one's body could be justified post facto, given enough time and resources.

Well, I don't understand circumcision for anybody other than those of the Jewish faith, as it relates directly to their belief in a promise from God. For Christians, Jesus fulfilled that promise, so it's unnecessary. For Muslims, Muhammed did the same.

[Night Runner]

	Originally Posted by Vagrant To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Well, I don't understand circumcision for anybody other than those of the Jewish faith, as it relates directly to their belief in a promise from God. For Christians, Jesus fulfilled that promise, so it's unnecessary. For Muslims, Muhammed did the same.

And that kind of ties in back to the OP.
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
At some point, people start doing things simply because they were done for a long time. A tradition for the sake of the tradition. As you pointed out, male genital mutilation was once practiced exclusively by Jews because of their faith - now a lot of people assume it's a de facto standard. Female genital mutilation also may have had religious roots at some point in the distant past. Chinese foot binding began (according to some accounts) among the Ming dynasty courtesans who wanted to please the emperor with their small feet; however, toward the end of the dynasty, people were doing because - you guessed it - everybody else was doing it.
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
I'm sure that there are some people even today who would point out some warped benefits of the latter practice.

[darynthe]

Originally Posted by plotthickens To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Many... or most... of the most vocal anti-abortionists out there are women. The continuance of the traditions of Female Genital Mutilation are entirely enforced by older females who were cut (men are not allowed). These views, which refuse girls and women ownership of their corporeal selves, promulgated by those who have been forcibly indoctrinated in same, seem related to me. One is a girl too young to understand being cut; the other is a woman old enough to make a decision being stymied. It makes me sad. [HIDE="Disturbing frst-hand account of FGM at 5 years old"] To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Brought up in a Muslim community in Senegal, Salimata Badji-Knight was circumcised when she was five. She now lives in London and works as an advocate for Forward in the UK. "When it happened I was five, and I didn't even know this practice existed. I was taken off with my cousins and other girls that I knew – we thought that we were going to a party. I was reassured because so many people I knew were there. Then the atmosphere changed, and the adult women became more aggressive. They took one of the girls away, and I heard her scream – I was the 20th girl to be taken, so I heard that scream over and over again. I heard them saying 'No, don't cut me', but I didn't know what they were cutting. "Then it was my turn. I didn't know what was happening, but it hurt so much I thought that I was going to die. They must have used a knife but I couldn't see it. It felt like having all of your nails ripped off at the same moment. There was no anaesthetic. Physically, it took a long time for me to heal. Every day when I have a shower I am reminded of the fact that I have been mutilated. "We need to stop this practice; it is terrorising people for life. I visited my father and explained what had been done to me. He cried and vowed that no other girls in the family would have this happen to them. "For a long time, I didn't want to talk about what happened to me, but if it will help one person to put down the knife, I'm happy to tell my story." [/HIDE] What do you think?

What the. Are you comparing prolife people to those who mutilate women? I can't even begin to get how your brain works. Honestly.

Bother "procedures" are about opening and cutting up in a monstruous way human beings.
Both are being santified by women because their society tells them it is the best for them and men prefer it to be this way. In the first case to make sure the woman doesn't feel pleasure, in the second to make sure the woman doesn't come back with an unwanted child and ask for commitment, support or anything at all.

Abortion also is anti-women in another way. More than 100 million fetuses of girls have been targeted for abortion for being females only in eastern countries.

Explain to me how abortion helps women because I don't get it. If anything responsible sex is what should be encouraged, anticonception and respect for human beings in general.

[plotthickens]

	Originally Posted by darynthe To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	What the. Are you comparing prolife people to those who mutilate women? I can't even begin to get how your brain works. Honestly.

Nope, just the mindset. Controlling women's bodies. Was watching TV last night and all the "XXX for california gov!" ads bugged me -- the two women were anti-abortion and the man was pro-choice. I couldn't understand why women would want to take away options and the man didn't. Then I realized it was about control. So many people want to 'own' and manipulate other people's bodies, especially women's bodies, and especially women control freaks. Why are women so interested in controlling other women's yes-yes bits? Dude. It's all so repulsive.

Any insight?

[Wren]

FGM is also done for supposed health benefits, much like MGM.
They tout benefits which are basically a load of bunk.
A study showed FGM helps prevent HIV/AIDS, similar (badly conducted) studies showed the same for MGM. Funnily enough, the HIV argument is being used to support male circumcision but there would surely be outrage if it was used to justify FGM in the west.

FGM reduces sensation, MGM was also originally in the west as a way to control little boys and keep them from masturbating. An interesting note is that circumcision as done in the U.S. is actually more drastic than the most common type of FGM (partial removal of the clitoris and prepuce).

The American Academy of Pediatrics recently came out saying that a nick to the genitals of little girls should be allowed. This makes sense considering MGM is legal. Equality right?


To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
has an interesting timeline.

Technically speaking, being for abortion is controlling the body of the fetus, but people don't see it as a "person", so that's a whole other kettle of fish... I've actually seen arguments where mothers have justified circumcising their children BECAUSE they have the right to abort them.

[Jarem Asyder]

It isn't really fair to compare circumcision with abortion in anyway, other than that they both evoke strong opinions in the religious. I don't agree with forced mutilation of someone against their will at all. It's the same reason that you aren't allowed to tattoo or pierce your baby. Male circumcision being a hygienic issue is completely ridiculous. If one doesn't clean their teeth, they'll fall out, but we don't forcibly remove teeth because they may get dirty and fall out. Yes wisdom teeth can be removed but that is done with the consent of the person having the teeth removed. I'm sure if you made it so that MGM and FGM were not done until the victim had a say in it, most people would absolutely refuse to allow that.

The faster the practice stops for both men and women, the better off we'll all be. I'm sure it would help if we didn't live in a society that was so two-faced about sex and sexuality.

[Distance]

It really is sad that this mutilation is enforced by women. Sometimes we're our own worst enemy.
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

[themuzicman]

Originally Posted by plotthickens To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Many... or most... of the most vocal anti-abortionists out there are women. The continuance of the traditions of Female Genital Mutilation are entirely enforced by older females who were cut (men are not allowed). These views, which refuse girls and women ownership of their corporeal selves, promulgated by those who have been forcibly indoctrinated in same, seem related to me. One is a girl too young to understand being cut; the other is a woman old enough to make a decision being stymied. It makes me sad. [HIDE="Disturbing frst-hand account of FGM at 5 years old"] To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Brought up in a Muslim community in Senegal, Salimata Badji-Knight was circumcised when she was five. She now lives in London and works as an advocate for Forward in the UK. "When it happened I was five, and I didn't even know this practice existed. I was taken off with my cousins and other girls that I knew – we thought that we were going to a party. I was reassured because so many people I knew were there. Then the atmosphere changed, and the adult women became more aggressive. They took one of the girls away, and I heard her scream – I was the 20th girl to be taken, so I heard that scream over and over again. I heard them saying 'No, don't cut me', but I didn't know what they were cutting. "Then it was my turn. I didn't know what was happening, but it hurt so much I thought that I was going to die. They must have used a knife but I couldn't see it. It felt like having all of your nails ripped off at the same moment. There was no anaesthetic. Physically, it took a long time for me to heal. Every day when I have a shower I am reminded of the fact that I have been mutilated. "We need to stop this practice; it is terrorising people for life. I visited my father and explained what had been done to me. He cried and vowed that no other girls in the family would have this happen to them. "For a long time, I didn't want to talk about what happened to me, but if it will help one person to put down the knife, I'm happy to tell my story." [/HIDE] What do you think?

I think your constructed idea of "... refus[ing] girls and women ownership of their corporeal selves" is an wholly invalid way of trying to tie two completely unrelated subjects together in order to attempt to make points for your side.

I might as well say, "95% of abortionists are men, and 98% of rapists are men, thus both represent violence of men against women", and then tell the story of a woman who was raped, and ask for comment.

It is flat out invalid.

What you fail to consider is the argument for each from the perspective of each, and rather than doing so, you assign this random, "hidden" motive in an attempt to smear one with the other.

To be honest, it stinks.

(FYI, women do FMG because in cultures where these things happen, men are forbidden to look direcly at a woman's genitals for any purpose. Even GYN's have to use a mirror.)

[admittedheretic]

	Originally Posted by plotthickens To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Nope, just the mindset. Controlling women's bodies.

Women have control over their own bodies when it comes to seeking and what leads up to an abortion in the vast majority of cases.

Your comparison is unfounded.

As someone who is Pro-Life and an atheist I just ask that women have some control over their own body.

[TheLastMohican]

	Originally Posted by darynthe To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Abortion also is anti-women in another way. More than 100 million fetuses of girls have been targeted for abortion for being females only in eastern countries.

Is the electric chair anti-male? Was the guillotine anti-French? Is stem cell research anti-human?

Disproportionate use of a procedure does not make that procedure inherently biased. Abortion is not anti-woman. It's just that some people are.