[creativesoul]

So I have met one too many ESTJs that irritate the hell out of me and I think I know why. Welcome other opinions.

ESTJ's description is:

"ESTJs thrive on order and continuity. Being extraverted, their focus involves organization of people, which translates into supervision. While ENTJs enjoy organizing and mobilizing people according to their own theories and tactically based agendas, ESTJs are content to enforce "the rules," often dictated by tradition or handed down from a higher authority."

So naturally they believe in conformity and need a sense of control over groups of people. They are what you called supervisors and are often good administrators. As an INTJ, of course, we would be the first ones they would want to control and rim in. We are also the first ones they try to control (which conflicts with our own control tendencies). At last, they would probably tend to use extroverted tendencies to control you through peer pressure, social rules and people hierarchy.

And yes, most ESTJs by the way, have no ability to have an original thought.

What a perfect storm it is - ESTJs vs. INTJs

[Functianalyst]

First it's a stereotype that ESTJs have to supervise. They do not need to lead or supervise anymore than ENTJs, ESTPs or ENFJs. All four of these types are just as comfortable not being the leader, but they do want things to be under control whoever is leading. If circumstances are not under control, ESTJs will take over the same as the other types. For that matter, ISTPs and INTJs will take over a situation just as quickly, and go back to being behind the scenes once the chaos is resolved. Secondly, how do you know that you were observing an ESTJ? Did they confirm that they were?

[Blse]

Well, ESTJs like us ENTJs do like control. We like to be in charge, we have an urge to coordinate and organize. That's the Te. We're driven by the need to create a clear order. Continuity and rules are Te's friend. They create a logical order that can easily be navigated, adjusted and worked with. We're not fond of the unpredictable of irrational; it makes it hard for to coordinate things. And that's life to us: a huge, giant project to be coordinated. That's what it's like to be Te-dominant, for both ENTJs and ESTJs. Yes, we can come off like bulldozers and over-bearing control-freaks. But that's a misunderstanding. We're actually always open to ideas on how to more effectively coordinate things, but you may be hard to convince
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.

As for INTJs desiring control, no. Introverts don't desire to coordinate their environment as much as we do. They step in when no else is leading effective but they don't have this urge to coordinate and organize their environment, to influence people and mobilize resources, to "marshall the troops."

In sum, as an ENTJ, I get along with ESTJs beautifully! We connect on that Te level. We agree that there needs to be order, that things need to be settled and procedures established. We agree that things need to be planned in advance, apprciate predictability, structure and clarity.

[lisakki]

Well it's not really surprising as SJ's are the group that NT's usually have the hardest time relating to. ESTJ's have many merits: they are very reliable leaders, they can be very charismatic, and like their ISTJ cousins they're very good with logistical matters.

You make it sound like ESTJ's are not logical at all, and basically stick to the rules no matter what. This isn't something you should attribute purely to personality; the guy might just be an idiot. They're not inflexible idiots who're immune to reason you make them out to be. All ESTJ's rely on Te foremost, and the ones I've met are very logical people who can be easily reasoned with. You're probably just dealing with one who just happens to be stupid.

[Blse]

	Originally Posted by lisakki To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	All ESTJ's rely on Te foremost, and the ones I've met are very logical people who can be easily reasoned with. You're probably just dealing with one who just happens to be stupid.

Exactely, they're TJs. Logic is their language. As an NT you already speak that language.

[BobbitSneazer]

As a rule, yes, they do annoy me a lot. Two things that really bother me about people is when they blindly follow rules just because they are the rules (and don't even get me started on tradition) without any thought to their implications or what is behind them. Saying they NEVER have an original thought may be an overstatement, but I see where you are coming from- definitely.

I am friends with this brother and sister. He is an INFP and she is an ESTJ. The funny thing is that as a type, I like INFPs way more, but for some reason, I find nothing to say to the INFP but the ESTJ and I have a lot of good conversations. I guess it's the Te. But I know a lot of other INFPs, and we have great conversations. I know a lot of other ESTJs and I don't like them very much. So you just never know. They're an individual first and foremost.

[True Rune]

They're okay if they can get your humor. Not especially annoying but not very interesting either. I'm sure they feel the same way.

[Philanthropist]

Originally Posted by creativesoul To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

So I have met one too many ESTJs that irritate the hell out of me and I think I know why. Welcome other opinions. ESTJ's description is: "ESTJs thrive on order and continuity. Being extraverted, their focus involves organization of people, which translates into supervision. While ENTJs enjoy organizing and mobilizing people according to their own theories and tactically based agendas, ESTJs are content to enforce "the rules," often dictated by tradition or handed down from a higher authority." So naturally they believe in conformity and need a sense of control over groups of people. They are what you called supervisors and are often good administrators. As an INTJ, of course, we would be the first ones they would want to control and rim in. We are also the first ones they try to control (which conflicts with our own control tendencies). At last, they would probably tend to use extroverted tendencies to control you through peer pressure, social rules and people hierarchy. And yes, most ESTJs by the way, have no ability to have an original thought. What a perfect storm it is - ESTJs vs. INTJs

Lol with ESTJs I tend to either really 'click' with them and we just get each other, or we butt heads like no tomorrow. The thing is, ESTJs can be incredibly stuck in their ways, and if you happen to fit the description of what the ESTJ has come to accept as a 'positive person' (yes I do believe ESTJs think of others as either positive or negative people.....) then they will really admire you and value your opinions and thoughts. My boyfriend is an ESTJ, and he is my longest relationship. He finds philosophy really boring, but he will listen to me being philosophical and be interested in what I have to say. He is also a Buisness Development Manager so it's true that they like to coordinate, and he can be quite bossy but it doesn't bother me, he knows when to shut up lol. We plan to get married eventually. However, my ex boss was also an ESTJ and a more annoying, irrational control freak is hard to imagine to be perfectly blunt.

[creativesoul]

	Originally Posted by Functianalyst To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Secondly, how do you know that you were observing an ESTJ? Did they confirm that they were?

Yes they confirmed that they were ESTJ.

[Seducer]

ESTJ: usually very stupid, rude, loud, bossy, insensitive, cold, robotic workaholics, very duty oriented. They have a strong compulsion to control people and have everything their way. They're full of stupid, wrong ideas and notions. They're ignorant. They lack intellect, imagination, abstract thinking, creativity, understanding, any kind of intellectual interests, etc. They like to hang out with their friends a lot and they like to play or watch sports. They usually do stupid jobs. The last thing I want is a stupid person with stupid ideas trying very hard to control me. An army drill sergeant is the perfect embodiment of an ESTJ.

[Zsych]

Fools!!! ESTJ make great servants to implement an INTJ's will!!!
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In all honest, I manage to get along fairly well with ESTJs as long as they can accept me as 'somewhat' better or higher than them. Unfortunately they don't seem to do too well if they're facing the full force of my personality since I tend to make them feel inferior.

Still, I think they're very good to work with, to do all the leg work, and handle the details, that you might not want to deal with - and generally nice enough to talk to honestly. I actually like those guys.

Whether I could handle one of them above me and ordering me around, I don't know - depends on his level of competence.

[Onigumo13]

To ESTJ - I have only one thing to say '' Assembly dismissed"
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I have a cousin and she is an ESTJ , every time she visits me I start to parish quite slowly but efficiently . Every freaking time she asks what am I up to and touches my stuff in my room . Sometimes occasionally she really makes lets say unbalanced . Once I was pretty unbalanced in a sophisticated way, and told her to "Shut your pie hole , cant you view that I am in a delicate situation here " . She started crying and whining and squealed on me to my godfather that , I am intimidating her . My godfather is an ENTJ and now try to visualize , the battle of the titans me versus him .

I just loathe ESTJ
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[Distance]

One of my bestest longtime friends is an ESTJ. We tease her to death and she loves the attention since she agitates for it with her ESTJ put-downs.

Push back an ESTJ with sarcasm and humour when they overstep themselves and you'll be fine. But you have to be really assertive and know your stuff, so they respect you. As well, don't forget about giving credit where it's due. They also have some valid thoughts and considerations and deserve respect.

[Functianalyst]

	Originally Posted by lisakki To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Well it's not really surprising as SJ's are the group that NT's usually have the hardest time relating to. ESTJ's have many merits: they are very reliable leaders, they can be very charismatic, and like their ISTJ cousins they're very good with logistical matters.

And this is somewhat of a myth as well, similar to NF types not relating well to SPs, based on Keirsey's theory. However SJs and NTs both focus on systems, whereas SPs and NFs focus on people's motives.

On a more intimate note, the STJ/NTJ types have identical usage of their cognitive functions. They both extravert with Te, Si and Ni are really not that different being functions that conjure images and impressions which makes it's users more focused on "one thing at a time". This gives ITJs an appearance of sequential behavior with a sense of a beginning, middle and end. Neither function focuses on the present (Ne/Se), instead they vacillate between the past and the future. If you guys think about it, you probably have a great detailed image of the past. I am happy to remember last week with detail, let alone last year.

[babble]

I think they are somewhat hard to deal with being an INTJ its opposite ends of the spectrum.

[dontmesswithme]

My ex-husband is 110% ESTJ. (We're friends.) As friends, he and I get along remarkably well most of the time. The marriage had great moments but fell apart badly. We still laugh a lot, we always have. He can be very funny. He has written some 'letters to the editor' type emails (to various newspapers) that have blown me away because they were so well written, insightful, to-the-point and funny. They were deemed good enough to get published. He is in middle-management and does very well at it. He can, as he himself often says, be "a hard-ass". He does like rules and to 'supervise'. He is excellent at solving logistical problems, and other types of problems, very quickly. He is also very liberal minded and very practical.

[Seducer]

I think at Columbine, many of the jocks must've been ESTJs and the trenchcoat mafia were probably intj/intp/infj or something along those lines. And it ended up in bloodshed.

Last night on Wife Swap, I saw a goth family versus a hockey family. The hockey family seemed to have two estj parents. I'm sure at least the mother is an estj. Their two sons played hockey and if they didn't do well, the estj parents told them they sucked and they're losers. They believed that was a good way to "encourage" their kids to do better. Also the estj mom called the goth dad a freaky loser to his face in front of his kids. Typical estj behavior and that's why sometimes people hate them.

If you're an employer or a general it's good to have estj's and other sj's working for you. They make good minions. I find it funny that estj's go to war and get themselves killed.

[lisakki]

	Originally Posted by Functianalyst To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	And this is somewhat of a myth as well, similar to NF types not relating well to SPs, based on Keirsey's theory. However SJs and NTs both focus on systems, whereas SPs and NFs focus on people's motives.

Care to elaborate? I grew up raised by an ESFJ mom and an ISTJ dad, and I personally see no reason to question Keirsey's assertion that NT's have the least in common with the SJ's. The way we communicate is so vastly different that unless we are talking about some specific piece of business or problem that needs to be solved, it is extremely difficult for my parents and I to have any sort of entertaining conversation. I like to talk in a way that draws upon Ni, and they always want to get back to Si. There's no bad blood between us but I've never had a casual conversation with them for more than 10 minutes, and usually when it gets beyond that it gets intolerable for either me or them.

[Silverity]

I have an ESTJ friend and we get along just fine. Together we come up with some pretty brilliant ideas and when we work together we share the leadership role. I haven't had any really deep and meaningful conversations with him but I've always assumed that was more because he's a private guy, not because of type.

[Dasein]

I don't like ESTJs either.. they don't seem to have any substance, are bossy and common. I have not met every one on Earth so I can't say this is true for all, but I meet a lot of this type and they disgust me.. then again, I am a slight E and I only like introverts.

[Allen3373]

One of my best friends is an ESTJ and I adore her. We can practically read each others minds. We have had only a handful of problems over the years, none of them major.

[Functianalyst]

	Originally Posted by lisakki To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Care to elaborate? I grew up raised by an ESFJ mom and an ISTJ dad, and I personally see no reason to question Keirsey's assertion that NT's have the least in common with the SJ's.

Let's start with your parents. I will accept that they have taken the MBTI assessment and gone through the process to confirm that they are the types you alluded to. Otherwise, you are basing your opinion on your impression that because they are being responsible parents, they must be SJs. The parenting institution is the epitome of SJ-ness (paying bills, creating a home, taking care of children, etc.) This is the reason that Keirsey created his theory of SJ vs SP, because he could see the inherent differences in his parents and other the parents of his friends.

As for your assertion, I don't recall Keirsey ever claiming that NT is the opposite of SJ. What I have observed is readers who view the charts making the inference based on the Jahori window. Where did Keirsey says that any temperaments have a least commonality with another. Like functions, we can and do use all four temperaments. It's very common for a person to prefer NT/SJ (or vice versa). Keirsey merely referred to intuiting types communicating in an abstract whereas sensing types communicate in a concrete manner. However this is far from the truth when you consider other theories, such as his prize pupil Linda Berens. Both types prefer a direct means of communicating.

Originally Posted by lisakki To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

The way we communicate is so vastly different that unless we are talking about some specific piece of business or problem that needs to be solved, it is extremely difficult for my parents and I to have any sort of entertaining conversation. I like to talk in a way that draws upon Ni, and they always want to get back to Si. There's no bad blood between us but I've never had a casual conversation with them for more than 10 minutes, and usually when it gets beyond that it gets intolerable for either me or them.

Oooh please tell us how this occurs, because like ISTJs I see INTJs claiming opinions (from which they have no or little experience) as facts. So I would love to hear your experience on this. When I communicate with both types I would not know which ITJ or ETJ I am speaking to unless they told me. They communicate similarly, hold the same prejudices not based on actual experiences, but the images created from within. You folks are claiming to do something that even Jung could not do, and he created the theory. This is what he says about the Ni/Si functions:

The two types just depicted are almost inaccessible to external judgment. Because they are introverted and have in consequence a somewhat meager capacity or willingness for expression, they offer but a frail handle for a telling criticism. Since their main activity is directed within, nothing is outwardly visible but reserve, secretiveness, lack of sympathy, or uncertainty, and an apparently groundless perplexity. When anything does come to the surface, it usually consists in indirect manifestations of inferior and relatively unconscious functions. Manifestations of such a nature naturally excite a certain environmental prejudice against these types. Accordingly they are mostly underestimated, or at least misunderstood. To the same degree as they fail to understand themselves -- because they very largely lack judgment -- they are also powerless to understand why they are so constantly undervalued by public opinion. They cannot see that their outward-going expression is, as a matter of fact, also of an inferior character. Their vision is enchanted by the abundance of subjective events. What happens there is so captivating, and of such inexhaustible attraction, that they do not appreciate the fact that their habitual communications to their circle express very, little of that real experience in which they themselves are, as it were, caught up. The fragmentary and, as a rule, quite episodic character of their communications make too great a demand upon the understanding and good will of their circle; furthermore, their mode of expression lacks that flowing warmth to the object which alone can have convincing force. On the contrary, these types show very often a brusque, repelling demeanour towards the outer world, although of this they are quite unaware, and have not the least intention of showing it. We shall form a [p. 512] fairer judgment of such men and grant them a greater indulgence, when we begin to realize how hard it is to translate into intelligible language what is perceived within. Yet this indulgence must not be so liberal as to exempt them altogether from the necessity of such expression. This could be only detrimental for such types. Fate itself prepares for them, perhaps even more than for other men, overwhelming external difficulties, which have a very sobering effect upon the intoxication of the inner vision. But frequently only an intense personal need can wring from them a human expression.

---------- Post added 05-01-2010 at 06:02 PM ----------

	Originally Posted by Dasein To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I don't like ESTJs either.. they don't seem to have any substance, are bossy and common. I have not met every one on Earth so I can't say this is true for all, but I meet a lot of this type and they disgust me.. then again, I am a slight E and I only like introverts.

Beautiful picture Dasein, is that you? An ENTP claiming another type has no substance.... hmmm isn't that kinda like calling the kettle black?

[sircockburn]

Originally Posted by Blse To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Well, ESTJs like us ENTJs do like control. We like to be in charge, we have an urge to coordinate and organize. That's the Te. We're driven by the need to create a clear order. Continuity and rules are Te's friend. They create a logical order that can easily be navigated, adjusted and worked with. We're not fond of the unpredictable of irrational; it makes it hard for to coordinate things. And that's life to us: a huge, giant project to be coordinated. That's what it's like to be Te-dominant, for both ENTJs and ESTJs. Yes, we can come off like bulldozers and over-bearing control-freaks. But that's a misunderstanding. We're actually always open to ideas on how to more effectively coordinate things, but you may be hard to convince To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. . As for INTJs desiring control, no. Introverts don't desire to coordinate their environment as much as we do. They step in when no else is leading effective but they don't have this urge to coordinate and organize their environment, to influence people and mobilize resources, to "marshall the troops." In sum, as an ENTJ, I get along with ESTJs beautifully! We connect on that Te level. We agree that there needs to be order, that things need to be settled and procedures established. We agree that things need to be planned in advance, apprciate predictability, structure and clarity.

What about ESFJs and their femdom (err, Fe-dom)?

But yeah, EXTJs tend to appreciate the necessity of having an all-inclusive, thorough system where everything/one is put to use. They don't BS (except perhaps to customers) and are action-oriented (as opposed to whining endlessly about things that can easily be fixed).

---------- Post added 05-01-2010 at 05:04 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Seducer To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

ESTJ: usually very stupid, rude, loud, bossy, insensitive, cold, robotic workaholics, very duty oriented. They have a strong compulsion to control people and have everything their way. They're full of stupid, wrong ideas and notions. They're ignorant. They lack intellect, imagination, abstract thinking, creativity, understanding, any kind of intellectual interests, etc. They like to hang out with their friends a lot and they like to play or watch sports. They usually do stupid jobs. The last thing I want is a stupid person with stupid ideas trying very hard to control me. An army drill sergeant is the perfect embodiment of an ESTJ.

Bolded = things that are often said about INTJs as well
Italicized = things that are universal and not limited to type

[Austin018]

In short, YES...I hate to generalize, as there is virtually always exceptions to a rule, but I have come across some over the years and I have found this type to often be quite annoying...not just annoying, but also dull; They tend to not be observant of their surroundings or other people's actions/intentions....but I would say that ENTJs are even worse though, in terms of annoyance and just being plain dull.

[lisakki]

Originally Posted by Functianalyst To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Let's start with your parents. I will accept that they have taken the MBTI assessment and gone through the process to confirm that they are the types you alluded to. Otherwise, you are basing your opinion on your impression that because they are being responsible parents, they must be SJs. The parenting institution is the epitome of SJ-ness (paying bills, creating a home, taking care of children, etc.) This is the reason that Keirsey created his theory of SJ vs SP, because he could see the inherent differences in his parents and other the parents of his friends. As for your assertion, I don't recall Keirsey ever claiming that NT is the opposite of SJ. What I have observed is readers who view the charts making the inference based on the Jahori window. Where did Keirsey says that any temperaments have a least commonality with another. Like functions, we can and do use all four temperaments. It's very common for a person to prefer NT/SJ (or vice versa). Keirsey merely referred to intuiting types communicating in an abstract whereas sensing types communicate in a concrete manner. However this is far from the truth when you consider other theories, such as his prize pupil Linda Berens. Both types prefer a direct means of communicating. Oooh please tell us how this occurs, because like ISTJs I see INTJs claiming opinions (from which they have no or little experience) as facts. So I would love to hear your experience on this. When I communicate with both types I would not know which ITJ or ETJ I am speaking to unless they told me. They communicate similarly, hold the same prejudices not based on actual experiences, but the images created from within. You folks are claiming to do something that even Jung could not do, and he created the theory. This is what he says about the Ni/Si functions:

I thought he was fairly clear in both the matrices:


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"Notice in the graph above that logistics in the case of the NT profile
falls far short of strategy. Note also that diplomatic and tactical skills lag
behind strategic skills but outdo logistical skills, owing to the middling
amount of practice usually given them as second and third suits. Another
glance at the bar graph will suggest that, although NTs and SJs are opposites
in the way they tend to use words and tools, they are likely to be equal in
the extent they develop their diplomatic and tactical skills. Why? Rationals,
like Idealists, are abstract in word usage and do considerable introspection,
so it is not difficult for them to identify with others and to talk in a
diplomatic way. As for tactics, Rationals share with Artisans a utilitarian
way of selecting and using tools, so they, given enough practice, can get
very good at making the right moves when in the field of action. On their
side, Guardians share cooperative implementation with Idealists and concrete
communication with Artisans, so they can match with Rationals in both
diplomacy and tactics."


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"Note that SPs are utilitarian like NTs and concrete like SJs, and are not
like NFs in either way. NFs, on the other hand, are cooperative like SJs
and abstract like NTs, and again, unlike SPs in either way. So each temperament
has two complementary types and one opposite, when it comes to
the way they communicate their messages and the way they implement
their goals."


Notice that I never said that we differed in our views, beliefs, or lifestyle. Keirsey in that first quote basically describes my entire experience with my parents. We agree on just about every issue, but when we have casual conversations our interests are completely different. When we both talk in general about life, I like to talk about my analysis of my strengths and weaknesses, my philosophy and goals towards life, and how I can improve myself. They focus much more on the specific instances.

Just to give you an example, if I happen to do poorly on a test, my mother immediately suggests talking to the teacher to try to get some points back, finding out exactly what I did wrong and make sure I cover it for the final. I, on the other hand, like to analyze what was wrong with my method of studying, my time management, and how I can better improve my studying skills in general for all tests. She focuses on the specifics of the moment, and the most practical way to immediately get as many points back as possible. I think in the long-term, to find a way that doesn't just fix the problem of the now, but also in the future. Neither of us are wrong, because both are important, but it's just an example of how our preferences for a certain function can manifest in the way we communicate and approach problems.

This isn't to say that SJ's can't think in the big picture, or NT's can't focus on the most immediate and pressing, but I think it's just an example of how the preferences can cause something to come to mind first, and the lesser preference to come later.