[Seriously]

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Arizona immigration conflict heats up AP By JONATHAN J. COOPER, Associated Press Writer Jonathan J. Cooper, Associated Press Writer – 2 hrs 23 mins ago PHOENIX – The conflict over a sweeping crackdown on illegal immigration in Arizona intensified Monday as vandals smeared refried beans in the shape of swastikas on the state Capitol's windows. More protests were planned Monday after thousands gathered this weekend to demonstrate against a bill that will make it a state crime to be an illegal immigrant in Arizona. Opponents say the law will lead to rampant racial profiling and turn Arizona into a police state with provisions that require police to question people about their immigrant status if they suspect they are here illegally. Day laborers can be arrested for soliciting work if they are in the U.S. illegally, and police departments can be sued if they don't carry out the law. But supporters of the law, set to take effect in late July or August, say it is necessary to protect Arizonans from a litany of crimes committed by illegal immigrants. Arizona is home to an estimated 460,000 illegal immigrants. Gov. Jan Brewer, who signed the bill on Friday, argues Arizona must act because the federal government has failed to stop the steady stream of illegal immigrants and drugs that move through Arizona from Mexico. She is scheduled to speak about the issue Monday at a Tucson hotel. The law has revved up the national debate, drawing the attention of the Obama administration and Congress. Obama has called the new law "misguided" and instructed the Justice Department to examine it to see if it's legal. The new law makes it a crime under state law to be in the country illegally. Immigrants unable to produce documents showing they are allowed to be in the U.S. could be arrested, jailed for up to six months and fined $2,500. Arizona officers would arrest people found to be undocumented and turn them over to federal immigration officers. Opponents said the federal government can block the law by refusing to accept them. Democratic Rep. Raul Grijalva asked the federal government not to cooperate when illegal immigrants are picked up by local police. State Sen. Russell Pearce, the Republican who sponsored the legislation, said it's "pretty disappointing" that opponents would call on the federal government to refuse to cooperate with Arizona authorities. "It's outrageous that these people continue to support law breakers over law keepers," Pearce said Sunday. Grijalva and civil rights activists promised to march in the streets and invite arrest by refusing to comply with the law. Police said the protests Sunday were peaceful and there were no clashes. "We're going to overturn this unjust and racist law, and then we're going to overturn the power structure that created this unjust, racist law," Grijalva said. U.S. Rep. Luis Gutierrez, D-Ill., called on Obama to live up to a campaign promise to pass immigration reform. Gutierrez is one of the nation's loudest voices calling for comprehensive immigration reform that would create a pathway to citizenship for the millions of illegal immigrants now in the United States. "Our message today is: 'Mr. President we listened, and we came out in record massive numbers to support you,'" he said. "We need you to support us today." The law has drawn support from many in Arizona who are fed up with the many problems brought on by illegal immigration. "If I go to another foreign country, if I go to Mexico, I have to have papers," said Bill Baker, 60, who took time off work at a downtown Phoenix restaurant to sell umbrellas and Mexican and American flags to the largely Hispanic crowd of protesters. "So I don't feel there's anything particularly harsh about the law." Supporters have dismissed concerns about profiling, saying the law prohibits the use of race or nationality as the sole basis for an immigration check. Brewer has ordered state officials to develop a training course for officers to learn what constitutes reasonable suspicion that someone is in the U.S. illegally. Current law in Arizona and most states doesn't require police to ask about the immigration status of those they encounter, and many police departments prohibit officers from inquiring out of fear immigrants won't cooperate in other investigations. The March 27 shooting death of rancher Rob Krentz on his property in southeastern Arizona brought illegal immigration and border security into greater focus in the state. Authorities believe Krentz was killed by an illegal border crosser.

I'm not real comfortable with this to say the least. I do think something needs to be done about illegal immigration but I can see this as being another one of those laws that backfires on us.

Thoughts?

[INTJRyan]

Me either. Now just looking like an illegal can get folks rounded up. Driving while brown, hell existing while brown, just got a lot scarier. This law won't last long before being struck down.

As an aside, I never understood why mexican folks were so supportive of illegal immigration. I mean, I understand why, but it doesn't make sense. They are condoning slave labor. I know of places right now where folks are living in squalid conditions in caves. They deserve the same rights and treatment as everyone else. Get them legalized, protected and paying in to the system like everyone else.

[SeaCzar]

This is a hot topic for sure. What I do not get is what all the fuss is about concerning this new law. These are illegal aliens. They are not supposed to be here in the first place. I am all for immigration. Except for native Americans, we are all immigrants, but the current system is clearly not working. If you are in this country illegally, you have no right to be here. Its that simple.

[Warrior]

	Originally Posted by SeaCzar To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	This is a hot topic for sure. What I do not get is what all the fuss is about concerning this new law. These are illegal aliens. They are not supposed to be here in the first place. I am all for immigration. Except for native Americans, we are all immigrants, but the current system is clearly not working. If you are in this country illegally, you have no right to be here. Its that simple.

I tend to agree. I'm not sure about all the details, but at the fairly high level presented in the article, there doesn't appear to be too much of a problem. I do understand that Arizona has a particular issue with illegal aliens from Mexico and other cental and south American countries, but the law doesn't apply just to them. As far as I know, it applies to all illegal aliens.

[Pachystima]

I suspect that the State of Arizona is going to catch a lot of flack for this law. But, if I recall correctly, the states of Texas and New Mexico are contemplating similar legislation.

If you lived in this part of the world (I live in rural Arizona about 25 miles from the border), I suspect that you would better understand the problem and the wide sympathy for passing the law.

First, most of the illegals are good people; they are in this country simply to find work. But, the people who smuggle them into the U.S. (called coyotes) are among the most ruthless, heartless bastards you will ever want to not encounter.

Almost all of the border between Mexico and the U.S. is desert; really hot, harsh desert. A lot of the coyotes will get a group of immigrants across the border, just, and then tell them to walk 2 hours or so to where a car will be waiting. Most of the time there is no car so the group is doomed to wander the desert until they either die or are picked up by either the border patrol, the county sheriff, the police force of the Tono O'odham nation or by the National Park service. Usually when they are found, they are in poor shape and need hospitalization. Medical service for illegals is not paid by the federal government, it is paid by the taxpayers of Arizona. The annual bill amounts to millions.

Many illegals die in trying to cross the border. A few summers ago, there were over 500 recorded deaths between May and October; these were just the bodies that were found. Nobody knows how many bodies (or bones) are still waiting to be found but at least 10 a month are reported by hikers, hunters and off-road enthusiasts. The bodies that are found require official action from the sheriff; first to determine whether it is an illegal and if it is, to find the next of kin.

Another problem is that the illegals leave huge amounts of trash and abandoned water bottles, clothes and packs in their wake. A jeep club went to one area and picked up twelve tons from an area of about 40 acres. They start forest fires while trying to keep warm at night. They will break into houses to steal food and water. They kill livestock to cook for meals. Recently, a local rancher with a history of kindness to illegals was shot and killed by one. They cut fences for passage; hell, I have had my fence cut several times. If they are actually met by a vehicle, they are required to leave all their possessions at the pickup point where they are packed like cattle into a van or a rental truck. Their possessions make for more trash and the overloaded vans are a major road hazard. Hundreds of illegals per year are killed or injured in rollover accidents due to overloading. Some of the car crashes take Arizonans as well as illegals. A lot of illegals earn their passage by carrying drugs into the U.S. And, a lot of the smugglers rape their female clients and rob both male and female clients.

The Border Patrol does its best to slow the influx. But, because of federal policy, the Patrol is restricted to "catch and release" . Illegals are caught, held temporarily and then returned to Mexico by bus for another try; this time with more experience. Basically, the federal government does not really do too much to stop the flow; I don't think the Washington crowd cares all that much. Politicians from both sides of the aisle respond to payolla from lobbyists from the construction industry, the landscaping industry, the hospitality industry and the meat packing industry and do little to stem the flow. At the same time, the federal government provides little or no assistance to the states along the Mexican border for the expenses they incur.

So, in essence, the taxpayers of Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and California are subsidizing the rest of the nation so they can save money on having their lawn mowed, so they can have cheap boned chicken or beef, so they can save a few buck on a house and so they can have clean sheets and towels at a motel.

The law in Arizona passed because many Arizonans are getting tired of paying more than their fair share of the costs of illegal immigration. The law will cost Arizonans more in law enforcement but at least the state government listens to them; the federal government sure doesn't.

[boldbidder]

	Originally Posted by Warrior To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I tend to agree. I'm not sure about all the details, but at the fairly high level presented in the article, there doesn't appear to be too much of a problem. I do understand that Arizona has a particular issue with illegal aliens from Mexico and other cental and south American countries, but the law doesn't apply just to them. As far as I know, it applies to all illegal aliens.

The problem with this law is that it attacks the problem from the wrong angle, sorta like the war on drugs. Arresting street level dealers or Bob the day laboring illegal doesn't really do much, but get the 'pro-legalization' and the 'get them all the hell out now' factions fired up. If we were serious about mitigating illegals in the country we'd crackdown harshly on employers. Start shutting employers down who employ illegals. If you dry up the job supply, the problem will fix itself. We'd also, make tremendous strides if we curtailed the combination of agriculture subsidies and crop dumping into Mexico which makes it impossible for Mexican farmers to compete with their own crops and hence flee north of the border in the hopes of finding work. Similarly, if you fire bomb the poppy fields, you save yourself a helluva lot of time, money, and political capital before you're faced with having to lock up the guy who just scored himself an ounce for the weekend.

[themuzicman]

Harsh laws against employers who knowingly employ illegals already exist. This is just toughening up the enforcement on illegals themselves.

Honestly, this is probably a good step. It doesn't give the police carte blanche to ID everyone, but it certainly extends their ability to find illegals based upon behavior that appears to be illegal.

[blueback]

I think this push highlights the problems we've had with national debates in general. We suck at them. We start to think the point is the debate rather than the debate being a means to an end; the point is supposed to be the solution the debate leads to.

So we don't address problems when they are small, and as they are allowed to fester and grow they create totally new problems. Then we try to solve those new problems by finally doing something to address the old problems. But, of course, that doesn't work. However, to admit it doesn't work we'd have to admit that we created problems for ourselves by not addressing the old problems, which we won't do.

The problem is not that people are in the country illegally. We could solve that problem with the stroke of a pen. The problem is that criminal organizations are using the trouble created by the illegal immigration as a cover to expand their business model. It's exactly the same as the problems we create for ourselves by making drugs illegal. People using illegal drugs isn't the problem; the problem is criminals using the situation to increase their reach.

When things are legal, and regulated, there is much less room for criminals to cause trouble. No amount of laws will ever stop people from smuggling weed (or people) across the border. None. It won't happen. A wall won't help either.

What we need is laws that separate the law-abiding from the criminals. It's not enough to argue that since someone is an illegal immigrant they are a criminal. Everyone who makes that argument breaks the speed limit, and is therefore a criminal. What we need is a way for the people who are going to find a way into the country no matter what to do so transparently. That will allow us to distinguish them from the real criminals who are using them as cover. A person who comes into the country so that they can find a job and work 12 hours a day is not causing a problem. It's the person who uses that person's need to hid their activities as cover to conduct crimes that is causing a problem.

This new law would feel very righteous and morally justified, but would accomplish precisely the opposite of what we need. It would specifically discourage the people who know who the criminals are and what they're doing from talking to the police.

If you want an example of a society that sucessfully resisted the integration of immigrants for generations just look at Europe. They have muslim immigrants there who are still a totally separate culture three generations after they first arrived. And look at how well that's working out for them. We need to integrate the law-abiding immigrants so that we can identify the criminal immigrants.

[Warrior]

Originally Posted by boldbidder To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

The problem with this law is that it attacks the problem from the wrong angle, sorta like the war on drugs. Arresting street level dealers or Bob the day laboring illegal doesn't really do much, but get the 'pro-legalization' and the 'get them all the hell out now' factions fired up. If we were serious about mitigating illegals in the country we'd crackdown harshly on employers. Start shutting employers down who employ illegals. If you dry up the job supply, the problem will fix itself. We'd also, make tremendous strides if we curtailed the combination of agriculture subsidies and crop dumping into Mexico which makes it impossible for Mexican farmers to compete with their own crops and hence flee north of the border in the hopes of finding work. Similarly, if you fire bomb the poppy fields, you save yourself a helluva lot of time, money, and political capital before you're faced with having to lock up the guy who just scored himself an ounce for the weekend.

I do think the problem is multi-faceted and requires a combination of solutions to fully address. However, I think this kind of law, or something similar to it, is part of the set of solutions.

[Causa Mortis]

	Originally Posted by INTJRyan To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Me either. Now just looking like an illegal can get folks rounded up. Driving while brown, hell existing while brown, just got a lot scarier. This law won't last long before being struck down.

I like Bill's view:

"If I go to another foreign country, if I go to Mexico, I have to have papers," said Bill Baker, 60, who took time off work at a downtown Phoenix restaurant to sell umbrellas and Mexican and American flags to the largely Hispanic crowd of protesters. "So I don't feel there's anything particularly harsh about the law."

	As an aside, I never understood why mexican folks were so supportive of illegal immigration. I mean, I understand why, but it doesn't make sense. They are condoning slave labor. I know of places right now where folks are living in squalid conditions in caves. They deserve the same rights and treatment as everyone else. Get them legalized, protected and paying in to the system like everyone else.

Many of their positions only exist because of the very low wages that they'll accept, and they only accept them because they're better than their next best alternatives.

If you formalize it, you get the jobs for those who can't do foundational math or speak english disappearing. Which I'm indifferent to.

[hubcap]

This shouldn't be unexpected. The states are being forced to deal with this issue because the feds won't. It is a much bigger issue in the states on the southern border of the United States than it is in New Jersey, Maryland or New York.

[INTJRyan]

	Originally Posted by Causa Mortis To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I like Bill's view: "If I go to another foreign country, if I go to Mexico, I have to have papers," said Bill Baker, 60, who took time off work at a downtown Phoenix restaurant to sell umbrellas and Mexican and American flags to the largely Hispanic crowd of protesters. "So I don't feel there's anything particularly harsh about the law."

I don't know...the further we can get from a "papers please, citizen" (oooh the irony) society the better off we are. Merely existing shouldn't be enough to require anyone to fork over papers to the authorities and "prove" that they belong there.

And Bill is a freaking gringo who would obviously be a tourist in Mexico. As I am sure you are aware, that's not really the case in CA and AZ. You know as well as I do this law will be abused by people with an ax to grind.

	Originally Posted by Causa Mortis To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Many of their positions only exist because of the very low wages that they'll accept, and they only accept them because they're better than their next best alternatives. If you formalize it, you get the jobs for those who can't do foundational math or speak english disappearing. Which I'm indifferent to.

It's more complicated than that, but that's kind of what I'm saying. They should not accept those low wages and the people encouraging them to come in illegally and work for an unfair wage should flat out stop it. The real crux of the problem is this: growers and shippers are almost uniformly republican, and, of course, it's common knowledge that the latino vote goes D. Both sides benefit from the exploitation of the workers which makes a realistic solution essentially a pipe dream. Maybe a $10k penalty for each illegal worker and $1k reward for anyone reporting them would get people off their ass.

Even the worst alternatives are often, but not always, better than staying in mex with no work. Sending back the money to mex is a killer to the local economy and sucks out local capital. That's why a worker program would at least force some taxes into the system rather than being a complete drain.

I think you are incorrect about your last point. There will always be a need, especially if wages were fair.

[Holiman]

	Originally Posted by themuzicman To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Harsh laws against employers who knowingly employ illegals already exist. This is just toughening up the enforcement on illegals themselves. Honestly, this is probably a good step. It doesn't give the police carte blanche to ID everyone, but it certainly extends their ability to find illegals based upon behavior that appears to be illegal.

Sadly this misguided answer is the cornerstone of the problem.

First is the concept of its already illegal and enforced to employ undocumented workers. Check into the history and youll find how few people are arrested and fewer business arent able to blame bottom management personal and escape without fines.


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Undocumented workers are widely known to work in the homes of the affluent and are easily found in downtown area's waiting to be picked up. With an undocumented influx in the millions who is really reaping the benifits of their being around ? Business owners large and small and the upper middle class and above whom want cheap live in caretakers. This problem is JUST like the war on drugs and like that war we are making ALL THE SAME MISTAKES!


Honestly this is a horrendouse first step it forces police into possible litigation and into territory they will find no solution for, where is the money coming from to deport these individuals ? Who is going to come and work them through the system there is NO funding for this bill in the bill. No new money means no way to actually implement this which is exactly what this politician is looking for ALOT of newstime actually doing nothing.

Think for a moment of the situation going on in Mexico at this time @ our border, this is a war zone and if you want to create some more inside our borders this is the proper way to begin the process.

[Ray9]

Most Americans applaude this law and the courage of the state of Arizona to stand up against the idiocy of our corrupt immigration policies. This should have been done long ago and no doubt more states will follow. The states have no choice but to take control of illegal immigration because on the federal level corrupt politics has rendered immigration policy impotent. When the federal government fails the states must act. Get used to it because the same thing is going to happen to with healthcare.

[Seriously]

	Originally Posted by INTJRyan To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I don't know...the further we can get from a "papers please, citizen" (oooh the irony) society the better off we are. Merely existing shouldn't be enough to require anyone to fork over papers to the authorities and "prove" that they belong there.

It evokes scary images, doesn't it.

You know it's funny when I was living in Scotland you never had to worry about carrying around ID with you. Here I don't go anywhere without my Drivers License. We are already used to having to prove who we are. So much for freedom, eh?

I agree with the comments that this law doesn't address the root of the problem. It's treating the symptoms rather than the disease.

[boldbidder]

	Originally Posted by themuzicman To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Harsh laws against employers who knowingly employ illegals already exist. This is just toughening up the enforcement on illegals themselves. Honestly, this is probably a good step. It doesn't give the police carte blanche to ID everyone, but it certainly extends their ability to find illegals based upon behavior that appears to be illegal.

The penalties need to be stiff enough so that no one would want to go through it again. Getting a fine and still running shop is not nearly harsh enough. Make getting caught with illegals in your workforce tantamount to a child burning their hand on the stove for the first time. That's a mistake that no one makes a second time.

[Night Runner]

	Originally Posted by SeaCzar To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	This is a hot topic for sure. What I do not get is what all the fuss is about concerning this new law. These are illegal aliens. They are not supposed to be here in the first place. I am all for immigration. Except for native Americans, we are all immigrants, but the current system is clearly not working. If you are in this country illegally, you have no right to be here. Its that simple.

This.

This is a very hot and controversial topic, and I understand both sides' points, but overall I support this new law. When my family moved here from Russia - legally, I should add - it took us years to complete all the paperwork, and all the fees associated with it damn near bankrupted us. But here we are, legal and paying taxes. Why should an illegal alien who managed to cross the border be treated the same way as somebody who went through the hell that is legal immigration? It's an insult to everybody who played the game by the rules.

It appears that at the moment there's a critical mass of illegal immigrants in this country. Blatantly disregarding the fact that entering the country uninvited is a crime to begin with, such behavior is not merely tolerated, but appears to be actively encouraged and condoned as of late.
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I believe this law is a step in the right direction. It's very far from perfect and will probably be struck down before it goes into effect (roughly three months from now, I believe), but something ought to be done. The current status quo just doesn't work...

[Cooper]

I'm not sure this law was made into law to be enforced. I think it was done with the intent of putting the problems of illegal immigration in the spotlight. It wasn't being talked about much (at all?) until this law was past. The logistics of it are insane as far as enforcement, but the controvercy it is causing is priceless...

[Blse]

The costs of this law are too high. Illegal immigration does need to be stopped, but what we need is an overhaul of federal regulations and enforcement. Burdening local law enforcement even more is not a good idea. I see why the law passed and why it's supported, but involving local law enforcement in enforcing federal immigration regulations is not a wise idea.

	Originally Posted by SeaCzar To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	This is a hot topic for sure. What I do not get is what all the fuss is about concerning this new law. These are illegal aliens. They are not supposed to be here in the first place. I am all for immigration. Except for native Americans, we are all immigrants, but the current system is clearly not working. If you are in this country illegally, you have no right to be here. Its that simple.

Well, yes. But - and this a big but - what goes is hunting down illegals if it comes at the cost of over-burdening already thin stretched local police departments? The benefits of a policy should outweigh its costs. I don't see that here.

Other than that, yes, illegal immigrants should not be here, they're criminals by virtue of being here.

[Tito]

Considering that the U.S. has illegal immigrants from practically every country in the world, with every single racial appearance (or mixes of the different races) as possible; I do wonder if they will be stopping everyone they see or only Mexicans, Mexican-Americans and Native Americans like the Navajo people.

If anyone reading this happens to be an illegal immigrant from Poland, Russia, Ukraine, Bulgaria, etc.; move to Arizona. Sure, there's a new 'tough' illegal immigrants law, but hey, they will probably not be stopping you any time soon; because despite being an illegal, you don't have the right look to be stopped.

Needless to say, I find this law draconian at best, and I'm not even pro-illegal immigration.
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[Purple]

I don't think anyone is pro-illegal immigration. I'll make the prediction that if you make the legal immigration process far easier and stopped the war on drugs you would see many of these problems mysteriously go away. More laws and harsher laws have only helped create the problem in the first place.

[flower]

I am mexican and I would rather my countrymen would not cross illegally. But I see on tv how they live, they can't live off the land so they leave their family in desperation. Of course everyone takes advantege of them, the coyotes and the people they to work for in the US those are the most vulnerable kind of ilegal immigrants, the poorest most needy. But there is the other kind, the people I know who have turist visas (you have to prove you own land and have a substancial bank account to shop in the US to get a turist visa and a job) and come from mexico's low middle to middle class who got a passport and paid for a visa and go work there for 6 months at a time. Of course these kind of illegal immigrants are far less costly to the economy. Is this why it is hardly ever talked about them? They are legaly in the US but not really because they are working, yet they can prove they are legal in a sense. Allot of them have white skin and don't look "mexican".

I'm not excusing them I'd rather they stave here but they rather not (I'm serious).

So in esence only dark skinned people get asked for papers/ID. And the poorest most vulnerable get screwed from all angles: by the mexican goverment who does nothing for them, drug smugglers, coyotes, employers and last but not least racism.

[AnotherNormal]

Oh what’s all the fuss about ? The US federal government will be along in a little bit, give those people papers so they have something official to show.

[Holiman]

Local police officers will be enforcing Federal laws this has broad reaching implications. Given the broad guidlines people who have not broken the law can be questioned based soley upon 'suspicion'. The fines go beyond the federal goverments arrested jailed for up to 6 months and fined 2,500. The cost be as much as 23,000 or more per person deported if the federal goverment will even comply to such requests.

Then there are the questions of state's regulating immigration policies and if a state can make their own policies about foreign affairs then where will that lead ? Can Florida legalize Cuban refugee's without Federal Authorities ? Can California refuse to fight or support any foreign war from a pacifist standpoint ?

[Akzis]

	Originally Posted by SeaCzar To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	This is a hot topic for sure. What I do not get is what all the fuss is about concerning this new law. These are illegal aliens. They are not supposed to be here in the first place. I am all for immigration. Except for native Americans, we are all immigrants, but the current system is clearly not working. If you are in this country illegally, you have no right to be here. Its that simple.

Land is everyone's. I think one should be allowed to stay, but have no access to things they don't do anything for. I.E No police/firemen, no public schools, etc... No voting.