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How to seduce the INTJ woman: A definitive guide None
Old 04-20-2010, 05:46 PM   #51
themuzicman
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Sounds like a friend's zone for any other woman....

I think what you see here are ways to NOT TURN OFF an INTJ woman, but I think the elements of the right kind of physical touch with some direct non-verbal and verbal communication as to your intention, once the woman is impressed with you, is still going to be the key to arousal
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Old 04-20-2010, 05:49 PM   #52
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I think this more how to seduce an XSTJ.
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Old 04-20-2010, 06:00 PM   #53
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I agree with Storm. Seems to conform pretty closely to traditional gender roles.
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Old 04-20-2010, 06:01 PM   #54
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  Originally Posted by themuzicman
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Sounds like a friend's zone for any other woman....

I think what you see here are ways to NOT TURN OFF an INTJ woman, but I think the elements of the right kind of physical touch with some direct non-verbal and verbal communication as to your intention, once the woman is impressed with you, is still going to be the key to arousal

I think with NTJs--we tend to quickly eliminate choices- whereas NTPs might keep an open mind about everyone; so not turning us off is a big thing, because once those pressure points are touched again and again, we tend to not give people second chances.

Guess that's part of being judgmental-thinkers!
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---------- Post added 04-20-2010 at 04:04 PM ----------

  Originally Posted by SelfMadeBum
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I agree with Storm. Seems to conform pretty closely to traditional gender roles.

Perhaps you are confusing politeness and social decorum with traditional gender roles?

INTJ women tend not be traditional nor conformists; the ones that I know anyway.

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Old 04-20-2010, 06:40 PM   #55
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  Originally Posted by rain
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Perhaps you are confusing politeness and social decorum with traditional gender roles?

INTJ women tend not be traditional nor conformists; the ones that I know anyway.

Yet the woman whose preferences you describe necessarily demands someone both traditional and conforming. And if it's not enough that the guy should conform to certain societal standards, you also expect him to conform to YOUR standards. And if a guy has standards of his own, who is anyone else to say how he should or should not compromise those standards?

Having self-typed people as INTJs does not necessarily guarantee that you have typed them correctly. I think a lot of people are quick to presume N where S is really dominant. We all function with all functions, it's just that type is determined by overriding preference.

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Old 04-20-2010, 07:27 PM   #56
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  Originally Posted by rain
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I think with NTJs--we tend to quickly eliminate choices- whereas NTPs might keep an open mind about everyone; so not turning us off is a big thing, because once those pressure points are touched again and again, we tend to not give people second chances.

Guess that's part of being judgmental-thinkers!
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J has nothing to do with being judgmental; it's about being more decisive. Even so, we're weird Js in that our dominant function is a perceiving one. I think the tendency of INTJs to be less forgiving lies less in J and more in the particular relationship between the functions.

 
Perhaps you are confusing politeness and social decorum with traditional gender roles?

INTJ women tend not be traditional nor conformists; the ones that I know anyway.

Sorry, but aren't things like "politeness" and "social decorum" heavily based on tradition and less so on functional importance?

Also, what Nikita said.

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Old 04-20-2010, 07:31 PM   #57
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  Originally Posted by SelfMadeBum
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I agree with Storm. Seems to conform pretty closely to traditional gender roles.

Yes, to some extent (although being a good driver, and not arguing is not conducive to sexual attraction - it just keeps you from pissing people off).

Thing is that most women and men follow traditional gender norms. If you want to be sexy to the opposite sex denying the role of traditional gender norms isn't going to do you much good. See all the threads by women complaining that "guys don't like INTJ girls" and guys here complaining that "women don't like nice guys." Both are violating social norms and paying the corresponding price.

It's not a matter of what you think society's norms should be like but what they are like. In an ideal world, women and men would be equals. In an ideal world people would be more rational and direct when it comes to romantic attraction. But we don't live in an ideal world. Reality requires us to conform to unpleasant realities if we wish to be happy.

  Originally Posted by themuzicman
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Sounds like a friend's zone for any other woman....

I think what you see here are ways to NOT TURN OFF an INTJ woman, but I think the elements of the right kind of physical touch with some direct non-verbal and verbal communication as to your intention, once the woman is impressed with you, is still going to be the key to arousal

Bingo, most of it is "How not to piss people off 101." As rain has explained not pissing an NT off is important because they quickly filter people. She may have a point there, because Te is quick at determining relationship potential, too quick sometimes as I've learned
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  Originally Posted by Nikita
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Yet the woman whose preferences you describe necessarily demands someone both traditional and conforming. And if it's not enough that the guy should conform to certain societal standards, you also expect him to conform to YOUR standards. And if a guy has standards of his own, who is anyone else to say how he should or should not compromise those standards?

That rain is traditional is pretty clear. In past statements she's said she likes men who are "aggressive," keep "tabs on her," and make her feel "protected." Those are very traditional grounds for attraction. Most women, however, are like her in that regard.

  Originally Posted by Nikita
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Having self-typed people as INTJs does not necessarily guarantee that you have typed them correctly. I think a lot of people are quick to presume N where S is really dominant. We all function with all functions, it's just that type is determined by overriding preference.

Very true, typing oneself is hard enough as is; typing others is even harder. I've largely given up on typing others based on mere observation.

That being said, this leads us back to the question how different are INTJs really from the rest of the population? From what I see on this forum, not much.

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Old 04-20-2010, 07:34 PM   #58
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You keep mentioning "most women". I don't have to tell you that INTJ is the rarest type for females. And this thread was supposed to be about what turns them on, not what most women want.
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Old 04-20-2010, 07:35 PM   #59
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  Originally Posted by SelfMadeBum
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J has nothing to do with being judgmental; it's about being more decisive. Even so, we're weird Js in that our dominant function is a perceiving one. I think the tendency of INTJs to be less forgiving lies less in J and more in the particular relationship between the functions.

It's the Te that makes INTJs, ENTJs, ISTJs and ESTJs come off as judgmental because we tend to be comparatively quick at analyzing a situation and making decisions based on our reasoning (including whether or not to pursue a relationship).

  Originally Posted by SelfMadeBum
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Sorry, but aren't things like "politeness" and "social decorum" heavily based on tradition and less so on functional importance?

Absolutely, 100% correct. You are a sociology student afterall
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---------- Post added 04-20-2010 at 03:36 PM ----------

  Originally Posted by SelfMadeBum
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You keep mentioning "most women". I don't have to tell you that INTJ is the rarest type for females. And this thread was supposed to be about what turns them on, not what most women want.

Look at my last question, when it comes to attraction, which is based on emotion rather than reason in all people (including INTJs), who different are INTJ women really from most women?

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Old 04-20-2010, 07:46 PM   #60
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  Originally Posted by Blse
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It's the Te that makes INTJs, ENTJs, ISTJs and ESTJs come off as judgmental because we tend to be comparatively quick at analyzing a situation and making decisions based on our reasoning (including whether or not to pursue a relationship).

"Coming off as" judgmental and being judgmental are two different things, just as being J and being judgmental are.

 
Look at my last question, when it comes to attraction, which is based on emotion rather than reason in all people (including INTJs), who different are INTJ women really from most women?

You're taking rain's preferences to apply to us all. Read the thread - it doesn't by any stretch.

I think for any INTJ woman, reason is applied in decision-making, even in relationships. I do it, and it would be up to other INTJ females here to indicate whether they do it. It doesn't cancel out or invalidate any emotional feelings based on Fi, but I would hazard to guess we don't completely shut down our thinking function when it comes to choosing a mate.

I think this uncommon trait among women is one reason we differ in regards to what we want in relationships and why those may not be traditionally gendered characteristics.

Despite the fact that INTJ women will want different things from their relationships, one thing that I've read and completely agree with that rain hasn't mentioned (I am totally subject to correction here) is that the INTJ woman wants to know that her mate is in love with her mind, that he respects and treasures her thoughts and opinions, and that they matter a great deal with him.

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Old 04-20-2010, 08:00 PM   #61
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  Originally Posted by UrWrongImRit
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It's really more of a pet peeve....

Have manners...

these are HUGE pet peeves. When a guy lacks mannerisms. it drives me up the wall. or when he swears at me( even jokingly.).. ICK.

This is also big for me as well. I can't stand rudeness. It actually makes me want to visit violence upon the person and tell them "Do you know why we have manners? So strong people like me.." *bash* bash* "Don't take advantage of weak people like you. Now you will beg the forgiveness of that person you slighted and feel grateful that we can all get along on this planet together."

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Old 04-20-2010, 09:44 PM   #62
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  Originally Posted by rain
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Perhaps you are confusing politeness and social decorum with traditional gender roles?

INTJ women tend not be traditional nor conformists; the ones that I know anyway.

Politeness and social decorum as proscribed by traditional gender roles is what I see in the OP. Yes, INTJ women tend to not be traditional or conformist, which is why the man described in the OP is not the kind that would attract the typical INTJ woman.

---------- Post added 04-20-2010 at 07:48 PM ----------

  Originally Posted by Blse
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Thing is that most women and men follow traditional gender norms. If you want to be sexy to the opposite sex denying the role of traditional gender norms isn't going to do you much good.

I disagree that most men and women fit so nicely into traditional gender norms. But, whether they do or not doesn't really matter. I do not follow the traditional norm because it is not me. I do not wish to attract men who are attracted to the traditional norm. Somehow, I have never managed to have a problem despite denying that the fact that, according to you, I am not a man's social equal.

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Old 04-20-2010, 10:45 PM   #63
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OK, so we've successfully not pissed you off. What's next? This isn't how to befriend an INTJ woman, but how to seduce her...

C'mon... spill it.
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Old 04-20-2010, 11:00 PM   #64
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  Originally Posted by SelfMadeBum
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"Coming off as" judgmental and being judgmental are two different things, just as being J and being judgmental are.

You're taking rain's preferences to apply to us all. Read the thread - it doesn't by any stretch.

I think for any INTJ woman, reason is applied in decision-making, even in relationships. I do it, and it would be up to other INTJ females here to indicate whether they do it. It doesn't cancel out or invalidate any emotional feelings based on Fi, but I would hazard to guess we don't completely shut down our thinking function when it comes to choosing a mate.

I think this uncommon trait among women is one reason we differ in regards to what we want in relationships and why those may not be traditionally gendered characteristics.

Despite the fact that INTJ women will want different things from their relationships, one thing that I've read and completely agree with that rain hasn't mentioned (I am totally subject to correction here) is that the INTJ woman wants to know that her mate is in love with her mind, that he respects and treasures her thoughts and opinions, and that they matter a great deal with him.

Yes, intellect and ideas may matter more from what I see here. But I still see a lot of irrational behavior in these threads by both INTJ men and INTJ women that shows their actions to be clearly steered by emotion. I do think there's more analyzing going on, true, but I'm more hesitant to embrace the idea that INTJ are so much different than most women based on what I read here.

  Originally Posted by Storm
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I disagree that most men and women fit so nicely into traditional gender norms. But, whether they do or not doesn't really matter. I do not follow the traditional norm because it is not me. I do not wish to attract men who are attracted to the traditional norm. Somehow, I have never managed to have a problem despite denying that the fact that, according to you, I am not a man's social equal.

They wouldn't be norms if they weren't widely adhered to. Most people do adhere to society's traditions and norms, hence them continuing to be in existence. Once a norm or tradition is no longer upheld by the major (or most prominent group in a society) it either dies or ceases to be part of the cultural mainstream (being relegated to sub-cultures).

That said, there are enough exception to any rule that you can reject social norms and still have success. The odds in the numbers game are just not as much in your favor as if you adapted to social norms. You seem to have successfully managed your rejection of gender norms, the women who come on here complaining that guys don't like INTJ girls have not been as lucky (or skilled).

---------- Post added 04-20-2010 at 07:02 PM ----------

  Originally Posted by themuzicman
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OK, so we've successfully not pissed you off. What's next? This isn't how to befriend an INTJ woman, but how to seduce her...

C'mon... spill it.

Let me take a wag at this:

Witty bantering and humor + confidence + intelligence = sexy to INTJ women.

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Old 04-20-2010, 11:34 PM   #65
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  Originally Posted by MyOtherSelf
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How to seduce MyOtherSelf:

1. Display competence and knowledge in an area that I'm less knowledgeable about

2. Respectfully point out inaccuracies in the things that I say (then I know I'll never have to worry about your ability to keep up...)

3. Don't pretend to know about things you don't know about

4. Be Witty...employ the use of puns...make ridiculous jokes...

5. Introduce me to something new and teach me about it

6. If you want to make a move on me, do it, don't dawdle forever and become indecisive! This makes me uncomfortable!

7. Use physical contact in public sparingly and thoughtfully

8. If you want to take charge of things take the time to see that your plans/directions/ideas are okay with me (Soooo many men just like to dominate with utter disregard of the females opinion. I don't mind someone taking the reigns, but do take my needs into account. If you want to plan an expensive romantic dinner, great...but make sure I like that type of cuisine)

These are really a set of things that any personality type can do. Seems like 99% of men aren't willing/able to do these things though...

I think that's a nifty list for appealing to male-INTJs too. Well done.

  Originally Posted by Haildancer
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Ladies and gentlemen, just be yourselves! Be honest about who you are and expect the same of the person you are dating. Asking them for any more than that right off is silly. If you don't like who they really are, then move on to the next fish in the sea. Attempting to obedience train someone into the perfect person for you, or giving them a list of acceptable and unacceptable behaviors causes them to be less than their authentic selves. They might try hard to appease you, but eventually their true colors will come through.

Which is what I find so alarming and repulsive about socialized dating ritual as I've come to understand it: such seems to insist we work to appear as close to basic norms as possible, hiding every quirk and eccentricity in fear of . . . what? being original?

  Originally Posted by themuzicman
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And, in addition to that, grow who you are. (etc)

If only it were easy to implant the drive and desire to do this in everyone . . .

  Originally Posted by themuzicman
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Sounds like a friend's zone for any other woman....

I think what you see here are ways to NOT TURN OFF an INTJ woman, but I think the elements of the right kind of physical touch with some direct non-verbal and verbal communication as to your intention, once the woman is impressed with you, is still going to be the key to arousal

Yes. I'm still wondering if anyone can weigh in with specific 'tricks' that work for general INTJ-female arousal . . . but I'm thinking such tricks might necessarily be so subjective there'll be little overlap from one INTJ woman to the next.

  Originally Posted by Kisai
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This is also big for me as well. I can't stand rudeness. It actually makes me want to visit violence upon the person and tell them "Do you know why we have manners? So strong people like me.." *bash* bash* "Don't take advantage of weak people like you. Now you will beg the forgiveness of that person you slighted and feel grateful that we can all get along on this planet together."

Manners/mannerisms as far as 'keeping the peace,' certainly. But I can't stand censorship. If you feel like saying a 'dirty word,' fucking say it. Language isn't elevated by limiting lexicon--quite the opposite. Such words came about because they have their uses. It's not always a bad thing to ruffle a few feathers--

though that said, there's a difference between beligerance and self-censorship. For example, I try not to swear in front of children out of basic social respect because I've found most parents don't share my opinion. If it becomes apparent strong language offends someone, I take it as an opportunity to try broaching the subject of why they're offended--dropping the strong language for the moment. If they can give good reasons, I'll do my best not to offend their sensibilities again.

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Old 04-21-2010, 01:21 AM   #66
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  Originally Posted by themuzicman
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OK, so we've successfully not pissed you off. What's next? This isn't how to befriend an INTJ woman, but how to seduce her...

C'mon... spill it.


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OK, but first you must make a post about effectively seducing INTJ men first authored by yourself.


  Originally Posted by Storm
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Politeness and social decorum as proscribed by traditional gender roles is what I see in the OP. Yes, INTJ women tend to not be traditional or conformist, which is why the man described in the OP is not the kind that would attract the typical INTJ woman.

I think social decorum and traditional gender roles are concommitant, but not necessarily the same thing.

Just because you're a female executive doesn't mean you can't also be feminine. I think in American ideology, there is this misconception in thinking that if you're a non-traditional female, then you must be some masculine sort of butch female with a buzzed head and dress in masculine attire and not let anyone open doors for her, in effect, becoming a pastiche of masculinity. To the contrary if we have to define traditional gender roles vs masculinity/femininity I think the subtle nuances of meaning would be more illuminating than simply saying social decorum is the same as conformist behaviour based on traditional gender roles.

Rather if we had a female US President, she'll be adhering to the same social decorum as her male counterparts and she'll be adhering to the different cultural decorum when she travels abroad. Diplomacy and social decorum doesn't necessarily imply traditional gender roles.

It appears to me that some people here have a hard time believing that a woman can be both feminine and be in a non-traditional gender role.

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Old 04-21-2010, 01:25 AM   #67
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@rain: I'm pretty sure Storm wasn't talking about feminine and masculinity. I think she was referring to not adhering to certain social norms like males only taking the lead or females not speaking up for themselves. I believe Storm was trying to convey that many INTJ females would prefer equality and respect despite being female in a very stereotypical social heirarchy where females are viewed as inferior.
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Old 04-21-2010, 01:26 AM   #68
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Where was femininity brought up?
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Old 04-21-2010, 01:41 AM   #69
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I wasn't talking about femininity. I was talking about not following traditional gender roles within a relationship.
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Old 04-21-2010, 01:41 AM   #70
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  Originally Posted by Amphorian
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@rain: I'm pretty sure Storm wasn't talking about feminine and masculinity. I think she was referring to not adhering to certain social norms like males only taking the lead or females not speaking up for themselves. I believe Storm was trying to convey that many INTJ females would prefer equality and respect despite being female in a very stereotypical social heirarchy where females are viewed as inferior.

So you speak for Storm now?
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In my How-To-Seduce-the-INTJ-woman-Definitive-Guide, nowhere does it say that the woman should not speak up for herself and remain quiet, so I'm having a little problem understanding why Storm (or you speaking for Storm
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  Originally Posted by SelfMadeBum
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Where was femininity brought up?

It seems to me from the responses that some people seem to be confusing femininity/masculinity with social decorum; two correlated but different ideologies that does not necessarily confine itself to traditional gender roles.

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Old 04-21-2010, 01:48 AM   #71
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Femininity and masculinity have everything to do with traditional gender roles and social conduct. Gender is a societal construct that prescribes and at the same time proscribes behaviour based (however loosely) on biological differences between the sexes. What is "right" female behaviour is based on history and is used to gauge how "feminine" a woman is.

But that's not even remotely the issue. Since that would require a little more time than I'm willing to give right now, I'll address that on the morrow.
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Old 04-21-2010, 01:55 AM   #72
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Specifically, while I didn't disagree with every single line in the OP, there was an undertone of being protected by the man and expecting the man to be the leader in the relationship. Traditional gender roles within a relationship are not my cup of tea, I would be surprised if most INTJ women like to fit the role of the traditional female in a relationship.

For instance, in the OP you said that a man should lead a woman about by placing his hand on her back, walk on the outside of the curb, lead her through doors. This, from what I gather, is because you find this behavior polite or proper social decorum. A man leading a woman is based upon a gender role that men lead women. It is a polite behavior if you first believe that the man is the leader and/or protector of the woman. (Assuming of course, that there is no reciprocation by the female. Any person could lead another person, as long as it's not a one way thing at all times, then it's not based on gender roles)
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Old 04-21-2010, 01:56 AM   #73
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@rain: I dare say having an understanding of what another person said and restating it in another way to help the true meaning come across is not in any way not allowing another to speak. Storm can continue speaking as much as she so wishes and I'm not here to stop her from doing such. I'm here for a discussion and at times I do try to help explain what another was trying to say.

I truly fail to understand how what I said is on par with this: "...nowhere does it say that the woman should not speak up for herself and remain quiet,...". Why was my mentioning of merely one, and only one, certain social norm related to a statement of Storm and I? Why because you didn't mention such in the OP? Can I not add social norms that I know of to fit the criteria that Storm was referring to? Seriously, please fully explain to me how me mentioning a social norm that I believe encompassed Storm's reasoning became me not allowing Storm to speak for herself? Since frankly I don't enjoy personalizing a dabate. Debates only get personal when one forces their views or starts a debate to reinforce their views despite them not holding any weight in the debating realm to begin with.
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Old 04-21-2010, 02:17 AM   #74
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INTJ women might be an independent bunch but we're also okay to follow someone who's methodology/direction/goals/results we agree with. But as soon as he's leading us astray, that's when we jump in and take over. If he won't back down from the lead and it's a repetitively bad lead, that's when he's outted.
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Old 04-21-2010, 02:25 AM   #75
rain
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  Originally Posted by SelfMadeBum
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Femininity and masculinity have everything to do with traditional gender roles and social conduct. Gender is a societal construct that prescribes and at the same time proscribes behaviour based (however loosely) on biological differences between the sexes. What is "right" female behaviour is based on history and is used to gauge how "feminine" a woman is.

But that's not even remotely the issue. Since that would require a little more time than I'm willing to give right now, I'll address that on the morrow.

Not really. Men can also portray "feminine" traits. Femininity and masculinity are not confined to gender, that is where you are confusing those traits with traditional gender roles.

  Originally Posted by Storm
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Specifically, while I didn't disagree with every single line in the OP, there was an undertone of being protected by the man and expecting the man to be the leader in the relationship. Traditional gender roles within a relationship are not my cup of tea, I would be surprised if most INTJ women like to fit the role of the traditional female in a relationship.

For instance, in the OP you said that a man should lead a woman about by placing his hand on her back, walk on the outside of the curb, lead her through doors. This, from what I gather, is because you find this behavior polite or proper social decorum. A man leading a woman is based upon a gender role that men lead women. It is a polite behavior if you first believe that the man is the leader and/or protector of the woman. (Assuming of course, that there is no reciprocation by the female. Any person could lead another person, as long as it's not a one way thing at all times, then it's not based on gender roles)

You raise a very interesting point- which is perhaps personality type is ultimately married with certain degrees of masculinity/femininity. I know that with a few of my ISTJ female friends- they indeed do seem to defy their gender in the ways of their perceived sense of femininity as they have more physical prowess and tend to be attracted towards professions which require physical strength (eg, cameramen- uh, camerapeople, marine corps etc) which could be construed as a typically male gender profession.

It brings to mind when Shannon Faulkner was the first female to be enrolled at the Citadel Academy in South Carolina and the ensuing chaos and controversy when it was found that she was a woman enrolled at an university with a 100% male population.

I would categorise her as a stereotypical "masculine" female in a traditional male gender role. However, I do not think this is the only possibility in terms of the degrees of femininity and masculinity that exist in society. To take another example, one can also assume that Queen Victoria could be indicative of a feminine persona who possessed a stereotypical "masculine" mind- namely the NTJs that seem to be so rarefied in personality theory. However, she would be a clear example of a woman who defies traditional gender roles- yet actually maintains her femininity (ie, having doors opened for her, being protected and all that
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) which isn't incongruent with people in power in general- male or female. People with great minds and leadership skills need to be protected. It's not a sign of "weakness".

  Originally Posted by Amphorian
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I truly fail to understand how what I said is on par with this: "...nowhere does it say that the woman should not speak up for herself and remain quiet,...". Why was my mentioning of merely one, and only one, certain social norm related to a statement of Storm and I? Why because you didn't mention such in the OP? Can I not add social norms that I know of to fit the criteria that Storm was referring to? Seriously, please fully explain to me how me mentioning a social norm that I believe encompassed Storm's reasoning became me not allowing Storm to speak for herself? Since frankly I don't enjoy personalizing a dabate. Debates only get personal when one forces their views or starts a debate to reinforce their views despite them not holding any weight in the debating realm to begin with.

Because that statement was somehow attributed towards me then somehow interlaced with Storm's supposed ideological protestations of my original post. In fact, I am supplanting the opposite perspective minus the social decorum.

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