[UrWrongImRit]

Some people ( religious or not) have weddings in churches for the pure fact that they are usually beautiful.

You seem are over thinking things. imho

I'm Muslim, and I'd consider a wedding in a church, just because it's beautiful.

To me, it has nothing to do with tradition OR customs, it has to do with the imagery/memory of it all.

The baptism on the other hand is a question mark. unless hes doing it for parents/grandparents, it wouldn't make sense otherwise.


Btw. EVERYONE is a hypocrite to a degree, those that say they're not are indeed hypocrites.

Saying a person never does anything contradictory to something they've said before is bull. At one point of their lives, they will. No body is perfect.

[Vergil96]

So you've never been a hypocrite? We are all hypocrites. Every single being. Either in large things or small. One day we may fuss at someone for turning on a cell phone in a movie theater. 3 weeks later we do it ourselves. We are all hypocrites.

	Originally Posted by rain To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I disagree with that statement. Hypocrisy is one of my pet peeves, and I don't associate with people who cannot abide by the very principles that they pretend to assert.

[vSv]

Marriage can, here in Sweden anyway be performed at other places than a church and without the Christian ceremony.
Marriage in a church for an atheist here would be an act of hypocrisy.

The only reason for the marriage itself would be for the monetary benefits.

[Monte314]

In the United States, "church weddings" have become a social custom; when practiced as a social custom, no claim of "faith" is involved, and therefore, there is no hypocrisy.

Marriage was given to humanity as a gift for all; it is a common grace for believers and unbelievers. What would be hypocritical is for the clergy to tell unbelievers that they cannot have a mate outside of marriage, and then refuse to marry them!

Our church will marry two unbelievers, because we recognize marriage as a gift to all humanity, and the family as the foundation of society for both believers and unbelievers. We will marry two believers. What we cannot do is marry a believer and a non-believer (since the Bible forbids it).

[admittedheretic]

	Originally Posted by Monte314 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Our church will marry two unbelievers, because we recognize marriage as a gift to all humanity, and the family as the foundation of society for both believers and unbelievers. We will marry two believers. What we cannot do is marry a believer and a non-believer (since the Bible forbids it).

How does your church determine what one does and doesn't believe? Most people who are agnostic are atheist aren't vocal about it especially in a Church. I bet there has been plenty of non-believers married to believers that have gone unnoticed.

What happens when two believers are married and one changes their mind down the road? Is the marriage invalidated? It sure isn't legally.

[emma4enriquexx]

I completely agree. My father is an atheist, my mother is neither religious nor atheist and yet they both married in church and I was baptised. My parents said that the reason I was baptised was so that I could marry in a church. I don't believe children should be baptised until they can decide if they want to for themselves, but that's something slightly different to this discussion.

I think most people want to marry in a church is so that it is traditional and seems more romantic. Most don't care about the religious side of it.

[rain]

	Originally Posted by Vergil96 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	So you've never been a hypocrite? We are all hypocrites. Every single being. Either in large things or small. One day we may fuss at someone for turning on a cell phone in a movie theater. 3 weeks later we do it ourselves. We are all hypocrites.

I disagree. I think people can be contrarians or paradoxical- that is not the same as being a hypocrite.

For instance, I don't hold double standards and I don't expect other people to abide by principles which I myself don't abide by.

Here the definitions of a hypocrite according to urban dictionary:


(1) A person who engages in the same behaviors he condemns others for.

(2) A person who professes certain ideals, but fails to live up to them.

(3) A person who holds other people to higher standards than he holds himself.
The only reliable product of an organized religion is a flock of hypocrites who feel that only *their* hypocrisy is divinely sanctioned.

[Zelda]

What does it matter anyway? We're all hypocrites in one way or another. People make sacrifices to please their family.

[Feral]

Perhaps the families are religious to some extent.
The ceremonies are probably really only for them, and since the parents are atheist, they don't really see the harm in humoring grandma a little longer while she's still alive.

[Vergil96]

Being parodoxical is being a hypocrite.

[Silverity]

Hmm. Well, I know a few atheist couples that were married in churches because they respected and believed in SOME/MOST of the values of that religion, just not all. It was still meaningful for them.

Second, not every church preaches a religion incompatible with atheism =P

[Firebrand]

I wouldn't call it hypocritical to get married in a church. To go to church on a regular basis would be. People get married in churches to be able to have a large place where family can sit down and watch an open commitment take place. Doing that proves nothing of religious conviction and the location has no correlation to the commitment or the beliefs of the people making the commitment. Atheists can walk in and out of churches without "becoming converted".

	Originally Posted by Silverity To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Second, not every church preaches a religion incompatible with atheism =P

Religions compatible with atheism? What religions would those be?

[Deliberator]

I've heard of very religious yet atheistic people, especially in traditional Judaism. I think it has something to do with their respect for the religious traditions as a way to connect philosophically with others and with those in the past.

Seems hypocritical to me, but does it really matter? I mean, who cares really? I'd say a religious wedding seems a bit more romantic (if not in a purely make-believe way) than a civil service.

[Firebrand]

	Originally Posted by Deliberator To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I've heard of very religious yet atheistic people, especially in traditional Judaism.

Those 2 concepts are not compatible. The only way that would be possible is if that person had a split-personality disorder.

[Ilara]

I don't think it's hypocritical at all. Assuming that neither of them cares (I'm an atheist; if there were a reasonable reason to get married in a church, fine. It's not like I'd catch fire, and I don't care all that much), then let us suppose that their families care. Why not go along with your families' wishes? It's unrealistic to expect that a marriage involves only two people. On the contrary, it involves the crossing of two families. So the families are part of it, if only peripherally. If the families really want a church wedding and you don't care, how is it hypocritical to please your family at no personal expense?

	Originally Posted by Firebrand9 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Religions compatible with atheism? What religions would those be?

Unitarian Universalists don't much care if you believe in "God", "a god", "divinity", etc, or not. I spent some time in a youth group at my local UU church.

[Deliberator]

	Originally Posted by Firebrand9 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Those 2 concepts are not compatible. The only way that would be possible is if that person had a split-personality disorder.

As an atheist myself, I can tell you that nothing is sacred. Including who is allowed to practice religion.

I didn't say they were compatible, nor did I say it wasn't hypocritical, I just said that it happens, and apparently some people like it.

The key for these people is to simply redefine "god" as something they do believe in, like "love" or "togetherness" or "tradition", even when, of course, the religion itself defines god as an all-benevolent sky-creature.

[Night Runner]

Hi - my name is Night Runner and I'm an atheist. ("Hi, Night Runner!"
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)

As an atheist, I don't walk around burning churches or telling believers that Cthulhu will devour them in the afterlife. Instead, I simply don't give a damn. (No pun intended.) I view all organized religion as a joke. A giant, ancient joke that few people get. On the off chance that pretending to be religious will ever work to my advantage (get a promotion at work, get elected to a public office, etc.), I'll eat the cracker and say some fancy Latin words or whatever it will take to get it out of the way. It would be adaptation, not hypocrisy - using whatever means necessary to achieve my goal.

Then again, I think Terry Pratchett said it best: "I don't believe in legends, but I believe in people who believe." I don't care if you worship flying ghosts who have sex with virgins, or flying horses that can take a prophet to heaven and back in one night, or a giant guy in the sky who makes people out of clay - as long as you don't bother me, I won't bother you. (Fat chance, that.) On the incredibly unlikely chance that I ever get married, if she wants a church wedding, so be it. Whatever makes her happy. (That, and I'm pretty sure you don't get a mountain of presents for a civil union.
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) To me, this will be just a continuation of the ongoing joke: a funny-dressed representative from the cult of flying ghosts who have sex with virgins will say something about his deity, and I'll say "yes."

This is all just a joke...

[sms444]

	Originally Posted by Deliberator To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I've heard of very religious yet atheistic people, especially in traditional Judaism.

I think Judaism is a special case as many of its followers feel it is more of a cultural group rather than a spiritual one.

---------- Post added 04-12-2010 at 03:47 PM ----------

	Originally Posted by Firebrand9 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Religions compatible with atheism? What religions would those be?

There are atheistic religions. Buddhism, for example.

[Damien Black]

	Originally Posted by Vergil96 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	So you've never been a hypocrite? We are all hypocrites. Every single being. Either in large things or small. One day we may fuss at someone for turning on a cell phone in a movie theater. 3 weeks later we do it ourselves. We are all hypocrites.

You may be using hypocrite in too broad of a sense.

You can't simply label someone who jay walks a criminal. In theory it may be against the law yes, but its absurd to live in such a black and white society.

A hypocrite, in reality, *actively* works against their ideals that they hold to other people. Forgetting to turn off a cellphone is an honest oversight, it doesn't mean you cant get angry at the next person who decides to have a discussion in a packed theater.

[GenessorDios]

Having a religious wedding to appease your parents? Try 'getting married in a religious ceremony to please the whole damn community or get kicked the fuck out'. It sure would be nice not to be a hypocrite but that's if you're willing to pay the price.

What about atheists/non-Christians swearing on the bible in court? Isn't that also an act of hypocrisy? Can someone lie in court and claim that they're not legally bound to tell the truth because of their lack of faith in the book of choice?

[Warrior]

Originally Posted by castalia To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Someone suggested that people like these do it out of respect for their religious parents, but what say do religious parents have in the wedding of two atheists? Part of me wonders whether people like this do it for show. A church wedding is usually fancier and much more expensive than a civil union. Perhaps such people are hyperconscious of how society sees them so they a) conform to the standard of most weddings and b) want to show how well off they are to the guests. I can't think of any other explanation..... So people usually get married for their parents or grandparents? Do they also require parental and grandparental approval of WHO they will marry before they do so? Clearly, the vast majority of such people are not Ts, and most likely not INTJs.

Parents and grandparents can have a huge impact on the wedding, and not just the location. There could many other factors involved as well. Even something as simple as availability of a church and minister when nothing else is.

Originally Posted by castalia To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Hmmm, so if someone does not believe in God, how can this person actually be married by the church where a priest will marry them "in the name of the father, son, and holy spirit" and "unite them in the name of the Lord"? Can this same non-believer actually claim later that his wedding should be anulled under grounds that he is an atheist and thus his vows (which include God) were not real ito him n the first place? See where I'm trying to get at? It screams hypocricy either way you look at it. But I believe you are right in saying that most people do it to conform to what most of society expects.

This is a big over simplification of how churches handle weddings. There is a wide range. Some ministers will not marry anyone they have not had counciling sessions with. Others will check your paperwork, say basically anything you want them to say, and be done with it. The church happens to be a convienent place to meet.

[ctclough]

It depends on the language of the ceremony. If it is full of language that vows undying love to both God and dearly beloved then, that is untruthful. Trying to act like someone you are not, with the intention of bettering the opinion of others, is the definition of hypocrisy in my book.

Caving to pressure also adds an element of wimpiness to the hypocrisy and lying. If you are an atheist, stand by your principles and don't be a crying baby about it.

It would not be hypocritical to be open to the minister about your non-religious stance, and to agree to be in the church but not take religious vows. The service can accommodate atheists and be basically a civil ceremony in a church building. I would not see that as hypocrisy.

[trader7891]

I am a Christian, and I don't think that it is hypocritical for two non-believers to get married in a church.

It is of my opinion and belief that a church represents the house of God, and God is love, so if two people come together in love, then well its no hypocritical per se. Of course certain denominations of churches will come into play, but that's a whole different topic.

And like some posters mentioned, maybe we're all delving too deeply into it? It could be just a matter of convenience of gathering. Or better yet, how bout asking the bride and groom directly? =)

[Trevor Black]

	Originally Posted by castalia To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	If they don't care about religion, they are more likely to be agnostic, not atheist. A true atheist does not believe in the existence of God and does not support institutions that preach what tey consider falsehoods.

Atheist, as defined in most dictionaries and encyclopedias, is someone that either denies, or disbelieves, the existence of gods. There is a subtle albeit important distinction there:

- The denier, to the question "Does God exist?", he answers "No, God does not exist".

- The disbeliever, to the question "Does God exist?", he answers "I have no belief regarding such matter" or "I do not care".

This distinction exists because the etymological meaning of the Latin prefix a- is "lacking", not "opposing", such as in "asexual" or "apathetic". An etymologically true atheist couldn't care less about gods either way, neither supporting them nor opposing them.



If you still have place for more knowledge on the subject, the term "agnostic" does not refer to a theological position but to an epistemological one. To the question "Does God exist?" the agnostic answers "Is there a way know?". This skeptic position is not exclusive of religious matters. I can be agnostic of both extraterrestrial life forms and God, but doubtfully I will be atheist of extraterrestrial life forms. Agnosticism and atheism are truly two different positions that may or may not intersect, like the difference between being personally bald yet having hairdressers in town. If someone simply tells you he doesn't care about gods, you don't know whether he believes gods can be demonstrated or not. You know he doesn't care. That is not called agnostic. That is called atheist.



Now unto political and ethical reasons as to why saying religious marriage is 'hypocritical':

Using the church to marry while being an atheist in truth is not hypocritical from various perspectives. However, if you live in the USA, since the USA has, more than any other Western country, fundamentalists pushing religious agendas on every matter conceivable, strong atheists are in great need of defending the separation of state and church and non-religious lifestyles as fulfilling. I would continue to call marrying through the church 'hypocritical' for atheists as a means to progressively undermine religion until its influence on population is more moderate.

	Originally Posted by Vergil96 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Being paradoxical is being a hypocrite.

That is not true. See definitions of
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and
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.