[Autoptic]

	Originally Posted by Still Standing To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	What's the point of being unique if people don't get you?

It's about my values being mine and my experience simply being what it is without another's limitation.
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You consider being gotten a prime value?
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Damn...just noticed you're an SJ. Nevermind...
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[SelfMadeBum]

	Originally Posted by Still Standing To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	What's the point of being unique if people don't get you?

You really don't see how those two are contradictory?

[Still Standing]

	Originally Posted by SelfMadeBum To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	What's the point of being unique if people don't get you? You really don't see how those two are contradictory?

Um... *thinking hard* No.

Does the need to be unique absolutely have to be incompatible with the need to belong? Is it possible to have both?

[SelfMadeBum]

A big part of being unique is not caring whether your way of being is understood or not.

Can they co-exist? Sure, but the more one exists, the less the other tends to.

[Still Standing]

	Originally Posted by SelfMadeBum To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	A big part of being unique is not caring whether your way of being is understood or not.

Yes, but how can you enjoy your uniqueness if no one else does? Then you might as well go be unique on a deserted island. I mean, when you're a party of one, what's even the point of being unique? You're unique by default, no matter who you really are.

---------- Post added 03-25-2010 at 01:14 AM ----------

	Originally Posted by Autoptic To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	You consider being gotten a prime value? To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Well, not gotten by everybody. Just enough so that I stop wondering (as other freaks would sometimes wonder, I presume) why I'm still allowed to roam about freely on this planet.

[Webbster]

Still Standing,

I think I get what you're saying, alienation because of inability to mesh within a larger social structure doesn't mean someone is amazingly unique, rather it can often mean that the commonalities between the isolated "unique' person and others has not been found. I agree that it is much harder to find out exactly what ones weaknesses and strengths are without the aid of other people, it also can be a tremendous learning opportunity to learn about the life experiences and the perception of reality of others.

[kepstein8888]

It's always been a puzzler for me. I can't help who I am, and ought not to apologize who I am; I'm not hurting anybody. Yet we are basically social animals living in a modern society full of interdependencies which, for some reason, seem to require us to blend in.

I suppose those of us who are "unique"--not in the snowflake, but the black sheep sense of the word--could go get a cabin somewhere and live off of the land. But why should we have to? I accept those who are different, and even embrace their differences. Why can't everybody else?

[Blse]

	Originally Posted by Still Standing To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Does the need to be unique absolutely have to be incompatible with the need to belong? Is it possible to have both?

No, they are not mutually exclusive. You can have both. It takes a bit of effort and work to combine being recognizably different and fitting in. I've struggled with, and thought about his quite a bit a while back, and I am convinced it's doable and that I'm doing it
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. Let me use a small example, I'm a 22 year old who doesn't follow the fashion of wearing T-shirts, hoodies and jeans. I wear either business casual, Ralph Lauren, etc... polos, designer dress shirts, etc... I'm well accepted and respected by everyone, yet I'm clearly different in that regard. I do the same with my intellectual side, I let it out bit by bit so it's not intimidating or nerdy, but still distinguishes me. As I said, it just takes a bit of effort and finesse...

	Originally Posted by Autoptic To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	It's about my values being mine and my experience simply being what it is without another's limitation.

I'm sorry, but to me that just sounds like being stubborn. Not caring how you come across will cost you in the end. You can either accept that reality or suffer by denying it. Your choice.

[Samoan Corleone]

	Originally Posted by Blse To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I'm sorry, but to me that just sounds like being stubborn. Not caring how you come across will cost you in the end.

Only if you're looking for a career in politics or advertising. While I'm not entirely oblivious to others' thoughts and opinions, it looks pretty liberating to live life that way.

[Bluesea]

We are all unique, when we look for the differences between ourselves and others we will find them, even identical twins have differences. If we focus on our points of difference and therefore isolation from others because of this, we get in touch with what the existentialists call - the fundamental truth of our existential aloneness. It is a truth, we are born alone and die alone. We live alone within our own bodies, minds, and emotions. We can share them with others and sometimes people 'get' where we are at in the moment, does not mean they will next week. We cannot remove this reality.

But it is not the whole picture. We can also look for the things we have in common with other people, and find these. When we focus on these we feel more connected to others and less alone. We can look for places like this where people might sometimes get us.

We can contemplate whether it is more the point to get ourselves and appreciate other people in the process of them getting themselves as a way to honor both realities?

It is a delusion to think you are 100% unique full stop, yet paradoxically of course you are, however perhaps in that, you can recognise that this is something you share with everyone else?

[True Rune]

I feel this is relevant.

( Show Spoiler )

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No, they are not mutually exclusive. You can have both. It takes a bit of effort and work to combine being recognizably different and fitting in. I've struggled with, and thought about his quite a bit a while back, and I am convinced it's doable and that I'm doing it . Let me use a small example, I'm a 22 year old who doesn't follow the fashion of wearing T-shirts, hoodies and jeans. I wear either business casual, Ralph Lauren, etc... polos, designer dress shirts, etc... I'm well accepted and respected by everyone, yet I'm clearly different in that regard. I do the same with my intellectual side, I let it out bit by bit so it's not intimidating or nerdy, but still distinguishes me. As I said, it just takes a bit of effort and finesse...

A lot of us INTJ/INTPs don't even notice stuff like that. I'm also 22. The only thing I don't do is the holes in the jeans. People used to get made fun of for that. Acceptance and respect is sort of context specific. I may be respected at this one place, but I don't have street cred or anything.

[ya lyublyu tebya]

The point of being unique if people don't get you is that you get you. Conformist sheeple don't know why they do anything. They just do it, and if they didn't have anyone to tell them how to think, they'd fall apart. I'd rather be misunderstood and happy than understood for something I'm not.

[SelfMadeBum]

	Originally Posted by Still Standing To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Yes, but how can you enjoy your uniqueness if no one else does? Then you might as well go be unique on a deserted island. I mean, when you're a party of one, what's even the point of being unique? You're unique by default, no matter who you really are.

Enjoy your uniqueness? Isn't that like enjoying breathing? What's the point of that? If you're truly different, it's so much a part of you that it's not something separate that you can take off and look at from a distance.

The "point" of being unique is to be you, and to hell with everyone else. It's not to impress anyone.

[Tough Love]

	Originally Posted by Still Standing To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Yes, but how can you enjoy your uniqueness if no one else does?

Healthy ego
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[Firebrand]

It's a matter of being unfetteringly you, letting the chips fall where they may, and allowing that to attract the people right for you and repel the people wrong for you. What's the point of being a mindless drone just so people like you? "yay! I have friends! Yay! I suck!". No thanks...

	Originally Posted by Blse To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I'm sorry, but to me that just sounds like being stubborn. Not caring how you come across will cost you in the end. You can either accept that reality or suffer by denying it. Your choice.

An INTJ being stubborn? You don't say! He never stated that this approach is not working for him. I'm sure he can see the cause/effect relationship with it, and accepts this. Don't make assumptions.

[Blse]

	Originally Posted by Samoan Corleone To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Only if you're looking for a career in politics or advertising. While I'm not entirely oblivious to others' thoughts and opinions, it looks pretty liberating to live life that way.

Uh, no not just. There are politics in every workplace. Trust me on that. Think about this: how gives you promotions, bonuses, performance evaluations, connections leading to jobs, side-gigs as consultant, etc...? Other people right? The impression you make matter everywhere you go, because other people matter no matter what you're trying to do.

Again it depends on what you want. I personally like money, and the rewards society has to offer. To get that I need other people to be loyal to me and take my side. I find having people trust me, being loyal to me and having the money to buy what I please liberating. Then again, those are my personal values...

	Originally Posted by Firebrand9 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	An INTJ being stubborn? You don't say! He never stated that this approach is not working for him. I'm sure he can see the cause/effect relationship with it, and accepts this. Don't make assumptions.

Actually, he's bemoaned the fact that he's lonely, has unfulfilled needs, and repeatedly stated that "life is shit" in many, many posts. While I don't know him personally, he has made it quite clear that the consequences of his misanthropy bother him. In any case, you will earn less money, be less likely to have a full-filling love life, and be more likely to be unhappy, if you don't care what others think. You can choose to adjust your image and reap the rewards society has to offer, or not. Your choice.

As for INTJs being stubborn, we ENTJs are too. I think the difference is that INTJs use Fi while ENTJs use Se as our third functions. INTJs tend to be more idealistic and less willing to change something about themselves, which violates the internal value system built by their Fi. I personally think adapting to others' expectations is usually preferable of being lonely, poor but unique.

	Originally Posted by ya lyublyu tebya To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	The point of being unique if people don't get you is that you get you. Conformist sheeple don't know why they do anything. They just do it, and if they didn't have anyone to tell them how to think, they'd fall apart. I'd rather be misunderstood and happy than understood for something I'm not.

Not always. Some us conform to some extent as a deliberate move to reap the rewards conformism can get us.

[ya lyublyu tebya]

	Originally Posted by Blse To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Not always. Some us conform to some extent as a deliberate move to reap the rewards conformism can get us.

I didn't mean that. That's more manipulation than actual conformity. I mean out of fear of being "different" or "weird." Everyone has to conform to some extent, such as to laws, if they want to stay out of jail.

---------- Post added 03-25-2010 at 11:01 PM ----------

	Originally Posted by Blse To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I personally think adapting to others' expectations is usually preferable of being lonely, poor but unique.

Alone=/=lonely. They can, but do not have to, coincide.

[Blse]

	Originally Posted by ya lyublyu tebya To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I didn't mean that. That's more manipulation than actual conformity. I mean out of fear of being "different" or "weird." Everyone has to conform to some extent, such as to laws, if they want to stay out of jail. ---------- Post added 03-25-2010 at 11:01 PM ---------- Alone=/=lonely. They can, but do not have to, coincide.

Are you calling me manipulative? Gree thanks
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. haha... I get what you're sayin' though. In that sense we're all manipulative in that we need to censor ourselves and concoiusly manage our image. Image management is the price of success to some extend. But you're right that's different than having an inherit desire to conform to feel good about yourself. Most NTs don't have that, true.

As for lonely and alone. No certainly they don't have to coincide. I went for 10 mile powerwalk for 4 hours today. I was all by myself and as usual I had a good time. I don't want to go more into detail about any specific users, but the user in question has complained about his lack of companionship in the past. Once you complain that you don't have enough interaction, being alone becomes being lonely.

[Autoptic]

Originally Posted by Blse To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

As for lonely and alone. No certainly they don't have to coincide. I went for 10 mile powerwalk for 4 hours today. I was all by myself and as usual I had a good time. I don't want to go more into detail about any specific users, but the user in question has complained about his lack of companionship in the past. Once you complain that you don't have enough interaction, being alone becomes being lonely.

Nonconformity has little to do with it. If I'd conformed in fundieland under Mamabitch and the family I'd be even more fucked than now and probably lonely for the rest of my life. I've only ever gotten away from Mother two years ago by coming to university. The situation's still very limiting. That's the current problem.

I want what I want, and it's sure as hell not some socialite or other pain in the ass. You're not apparently comprehending my experience being what it is. Going through other people's motions doesn't work for me. My values aren't theirs, and neither are my emotional responses.

[ya lyublyu tebya]

Originally Posted by Blse To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Are you calling me manipulative? Gree thanks To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. . haha... I get what you're sayin' though. In that sense we're all manipulative in that we need to censor ourselves and concoiusly manage our image. Image management is the price of success to some extend. But you're right that's different than having an inherit desire to conform to feel good about yourself. Most NTs don't have that, true. As for lonely and alone. No certainly they don't have to coincide. I went for 10 mile powerwalk for 4 hours today. I was all by myself and as usual I had a good time. I don't want to go more into detail about any specific users, but the user in question has complained about his lack of companionship in the past. Once you complain that you don't have enough interaction, being alone becomes being lonely.

Did I ever imply that being manipulative is a bad thing?
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Ah, that's true, if you say you want more interaction, but I'm alone way more than just a 4 hour walk every so often, and I don't get lonely. There's a huge spectrum.

[Ben1220]

Originally Posted by Autoptic To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Nonconformity has little to do with it. If I'd conformed in fundieland under Mamabitch and the family I'd be even more fucked than now and probably lonely for the rest of my life. I've only ever gotten away from Mother two years ago by coming to university. The situation's still very limiting. That's the current problem. I want what I want, and it's sure as hell not some socialite or other pain in the ass. You're not apparently comprehending my experience being what it is. Going through other people's motions doesn't work for me. My values aren't theirs, and neither are my emotional responses.

I think it would be very easy if you were in an environment like that, for you to come to the conclusion that you are vastly different from everyone else, almost even like a completely different species. I experience the same thing to a much smaller extent with my family, while they are all intelligent, reasonable people, and certainly no where near as bad as fundies, they are still very different from me (They are all strong ES types). The same goes for my extended family, many family friends and so on. I also went to a prestigious private religious highschool, and while they certainly weren't fundamentalist, and were relatively intelligent and thoughtful about it, the kind of atmosphere there was MUCH more friendly to SJ types than NTs, and the SJs tended to florish. Sport was a very big deal, tradition was a very big deal, discipline was a very big deal ect ect ect.

It wasn't until after highschool, when I started defining my own path, that I started ending up in environments much more suited to my personality and my interests, and hence surrounded by people I feel much more comfortable around. Now I'm doing a Science degree at one of the top universities in the country (Australia), and I must say, I think any strong INTJ, no matter how quirky or aloof or "different" they think they are, would not even be given a second glance by most people in this kind of environment. This isn't to say that everyone there are aloof very strong INTJs, just that there are enough of them that encountering one isn't statistically significant at all.

I tend not to define my identity by the social groups I am a member of, like many people seem to define their identity (less so INTJs). I don't fit neatly into any stereotypical groups on or off campus, but that's ok, there are enough interesting, intelligent people around that I can make do with just being myself in an environment that is strongly suited to my personality.

You can probably see why I shared all of this without me making it explicit, but I will now anyway. I think you need to get far far away from fundie land, and into an environment in which you feel you can relate to more. (easier said than done, yes I know) But this doesn't mean you need to mentally associate yourself with social groups. You can still be a lone wolf, but just in an environment where you don't have to feel hostility towards other people (because they actually don't suck.) Instead of "corrupting your uniqueness", just change the underlying population that you're living your life around. You probably won't find any people with the exact same values as you, or the same thought processes, if you are as unique as you claim, but if you go looking for them, you will find an enormous range of intelligent people, and while most you come accross still might be quite different from you, they are much more likely to at least be able to understand you and tolerate you.

The question of course then becomes, where do you find your perfect environment? If all else fails, just remember, you're not looking for an environment where everyone is like you, but just an environment in which you can tolerate most people, in which you will be tolerated and you will be able to relate to and understand some people, at least slightly. That should be enough. Fundieland obviously fails on all three of these counts. You need to get out of there before you go mad.

[ya lyublyu tebya]

Something I just thought on my think tank (the toilet, lol) earlier... If you're unique in a way that's "acceptable," it gives you a lot of power. Sadly, people are just that willing to give theirs away.

I'm really good at manicures, and even though the patterns and designs I do are definitely unusual, and might be "unacceptable" on something like paintings or clothing, I somehow get a lot of praise for it. I could probably get a lot of favors off of people by offering to do their nails, if I wanted to bother. So, it could go either way. You could make enemies or servants.

Uniqueness sure has a lot of power over people, whether good or bad. They're so easily thrown by things that wrench them from their groupthink-y routines.

[AliTree]

nothing is original. it's all been done before.

[SuperSmart101]

Being an intj means that you are not going to be easily understood by the general population= uniqueness and being gotten can not co exist.

Originally Posted by madroses4life To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Hi, I am new to this site. I am a Male INTJ, recently found this out a year ago. Throughout my life I have had difficulty "fitting in" with the general individual. I have been aspiring to have interesting conversations involving philosophy, sociology, but these topics require a bit of thinking and the general person finds this tedious. I have gathered a few close friends throughout college, all ENFP's not surprising. I just can never get the conversation I want, I can visualize it, but it never materializes to the real world. Maybe there are few people interested in the topics I mentioned. I don't want to talk about generic things that have no substance, that will only leave me empty. Do any other INTJ's have this problem I mentioned?

Yes, I used to always have this problem. This was before I knew anything about MBTI. Although once I figured that I am a intj, and what the general population truly is, I accepted that there are going to be few people who are going to give me the intellectual stimulation I seek. I can assure you,madroses4life, that the people on this forum are more interested in debates and interesting conversations, than superficial small talk.

[Marcus Septim]

Originally Posted by kepstein8888 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

It's always been a puzzler for me. I can't help who I am, and ought not to apologize who I am; I'm not hurting anybody. Yet we are basically social animals living in a modern society full of interdependencies which, for some reason, seem to require us to blend in. I suppose those of us who are "unique"--not in the snowflake, but the black sheep sense of the word--could go get a cabin somewhere and live off of the land. But why should we have to? I accept those who are different, and even embrace their differences. Why can't everybody else?

I couldn't have said it better,while i accept that my choises limit me socialy,i like who i am,in fact i love myself and by accepting my difference with the rest of the world,i thereby accept the others differences who on the other hand don't seem to reprociate in kind...

It's.. a bummer really