[quartertone]

I'm going to say only Schoenberg, Bartok or Rachmaninoff.

Composers are generally sensory type people, but the ones who experiment with new ideas are scientists.

[balpha]

..don't think so.. Bartok seems to me rather as perceiver and/or feeler (infp or intp)- what i read about him doesn't seem very structured but. Trying out new things doesn't have to mean being an intj. Schönberg invented a totally new system - first guess: intj - but what do we actually know about him? What do we know about his own learning methods? Why not, infp, infj??!
"Composers are generally sensory type people, but the ones who experiment with new ideas are scientists. "
For what reasons? I know much more intuitives composing quite nice things.. -routine musicians seem to me as sensory type people, though they are very creative but no system makers. I guess you think composers are sonsory types because there's so much routine work in the act of writing and it may seem logical putting them into sensory file. But if you look out for really good, new things, they will be created by an intuitive type as you already said.
What I actually tried to say is - your right - but ist doesn't make much sense finding out the profile of a componist - they are very rare and will compose if they want to and not because someone tells them: "you're an isfp, infp,.. - you should learn to play the guitar and then earn money and make mom and dad pride.."

AND: I don't like Schönberg - human beings can't create the world in a new way.. I have great respect for his work, though.. I just don't like it..

[quartertone]

Ever since I started studying music I just seem to group people together as Music Types. Most of the music people I know seem sensory, but I dont really understand the difference between sensory and intuitive creativity. But mostly prodigies like mozart, pagganini, and chopin strike me as sensory, when beethoven and brahms seem intuitive. i think you are right that both types can be innovators.

I get into music theory and musicology, and I dont like schourberg music either, but like you I have enormous respect for what he did.

And how is undoing the tonal system recreating the world?

[deicruxified]

i just noticed something whenever me and my buds play... i like playing with n people because the spontaneity of ideas flow endlessly. in percussions for example, i do study the basics but add some stuff as i play it over and over as long as the framework still stay... so does my other n mates.. i did play with an s before and he was, "that's not the piece". there's this idea of n's still playing their music but at the same time making it their "own" however i'm not saying that s people are not creative... but just sticklers...

i'm just stating stuff based on experience so i won't be a good source i guess.

[deicruxified]

out of the blue thought:

i was studying this
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to incorporate the flamenco touch in the guitar piece "sevilla". john williams' concern was since "sevilla" is a dance, it should be lively and, in my own words, a bit rough compared to the conventional classical guitar interpretation which is subtle.

so my question basically is is john williams on this video (i can't generalize though) being an "n" or "s" because i can't determine whether the concern is sticking with the traditional classical or going back to the original flamenco dance. on the other hand, i am also considering the fact that john williams has played the piece in classical as what segovia, his teacher, taught him then later thinks (or feels?) that, "hey this is a dance!". it's a spark of creativity though... i do get the hunch that he is an intj (based on intrviews, biography and the way he plays but i think it's too much intuiting on my part?)... so what do you think?

[Rohsiph]

	Originally Posted by quartertone To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	But mostly prodigies like mozart, pagganini, and chopin strike me as sensory, when beethoven and brahms seem intuitive.

Note: one of the prime examples of one of the understood definitions of Ni (introverted intuition--the INTJ's primary function) is how Mozart composed.

A piece would pop into his head all at once, seemingly from nowhere, and he would have to write it down--Ni working at its peak.

It's likely he could have been an INFJ, or perhaps another type . . . but, almost entirely due to my understanding of what Ni is, I'm convinced artists like Mozart must have had Ni as a primary or at least secondary function.

[mikeeppolito]

From what I've heard the creative types are generally P's. This must be true to an extent, as both Mozart and Beethoven were ISFP's. However, being an INTJ, I've found I'm able to compose music that sounds very similar to theirs, even though I'm sure my process is a lot different. From what I've read about the great composers, the way I happen to work seems the most similar to Brahms- who generally took a long time to work and constantly made improvements as he went along. However, I think it must be more the exception than the rule for a Judging personality type to be an artist than the Perceiving personality type. Or perhaps there are other J artists? I would like to know who they might be.

[Theoden]

I've been desperately trying to teach myself [classical] music composition for a year or so. I have a pile of books on the topic a mile high, but [for probably the first time ever], this isn't really getting me anywhere. How did other INTJs pick this up?

I'm beginning to fear I may have a mental block in this area.. i.e. If my first piece isn't a 30 minute symphony in 20 parts, why bother?

[ShiningLight]

	Originally Posted by Theoden To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I've been desperately trying to teach myself [classical] music composition for a year or so. I have a pile of books on the topic a mile high, but [for probably the first time ever], this isn't really getting me anywhere. How did other INTJs pick this up? I'm beginning to fear I may have a mental block in this area.. i.e. If my first piece isn't a 30 minute symphony in 20 parts, why bother?

Theoden, my advice is to not expect too much from yourself in the beginning. I have been composing music for the past two years. And now that I look back, the snippets I started out with, even the achievements I was proud of at the time, were awful - filled with awkward note combinations, too much repetition, etc. However, I look to them as a learning experience that must take place before my compositions can make sense.

Another important thing to keep in mind is letting yourself go. It likely won't work out if you think to yourself, I have to/want to do this. Inspiration is spontaneous and cannot be forced. But most importantly, and this may sound strange to you coming from another INTJ, try to compose with your heart, not your head. Don't be afraid to show your emotions through the music. If you let the music speak for you, you will find plenty of things to say.

Good luck in your endeavors.

[BloozeGit]

Originally Posted by deicruxified To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

out of the blue thought: i was studying this To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. to incorporate the flamenco touch in the guitar piece "sevilla". john williams' concern was since "sevilla" is a dance, it should be lively and, in my own words, a bit rough compared to the conventional classical guitar interpretation which is subtle. so my question basically is is john williams on this video (i can't generalize though) being an "n" or "s" because i can't determine whether the concern is sticking with the traditional classical or going back to the original flamenco dance. on the other hand, i am also considering the fact that john williams has played the piece in classical as what segovia, his teacher, taught him then later thinks (or feels?) that, "hey this is a dance!". it's a spark of creativity though... i do get the hunch that he is an intj (based on intrviews, biography and the way he plays but i think it's too much intuiting on my part?)... so what do you think?

Great video! I have to go to Spain sometime...what with all the senoritas dancing in the street and all that
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I come from a non-classical background (the clue is in my avatar), mostly improvisational. In fact. I probably can't play any song the same way twice, such is my lack of discipline and memory power. There's bound to be a bum note or different lick somewhere
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When I'm jamming with others, I think there's a mix of "intuition" and "sensing" going on. Sensing what the other players are going to do, then using my intuition to play whatever I think will sound good behind them.

As for Mr Williams, his senses probably tells him that the piece should be dance-able and should incorporate flamenco rhythms. After that I'd guess his intuition kicks in to put the the downstrokes and upstrokes where they should be. If he had just one or the other I don't think it would have worked out.

On second thought, you could switch the words "intuition" and "senses" around in that para above and it would still make sense.
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[deicruxified]

	Originally Posted by BloozeGit To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Great video! I have to go to Spain sometime...what with all the senoritas dancing in the street and all that To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

yes i would love to go to spain as well... and as for the other parts of your post, that cleared up something because when it comes to music i have a difficult time sniffing out n's and s's although i made some observations with the people i play with.

[mikeeppolito]

	Originally Posted by Theoden To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I've been desperately trying to teach myself [classical] music composition for a year or so. I have a pile of books on the topic a mile high, but [for probably the first time ever], this isn't really getting me anywhere. How did other INTJs pick this up? I'm beginning to fear I may have a mental block in this area.. i.e. If my first piece isn't a 30 minute symphony in 20 parts, why bother?

I would agree with ShiningLight. Don't be too ambitious. I started composing in high school (around 1993) but just started out with simple melodies and themes. Most of the stuff I composed then, and in the years to follow, had little musical value in my opinion. However, I've stuck with it (though on and off) and the results have been pretty impressive. I've learned a lot about counterpoint and writing melodies, but to this day have not attempted a symphony or other large scale work.

For learning to write classical music I would recommend using the 4-part chorales of J.S. Bach. Even if the counterpoint is beyond your understanding, you can learn a lot from the way the melodies are formed and the way in which they "flow".

Just for your interest, if you want to hear music from an INTJ composer, I'd recommend visiting my page at
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. The music I've written is in neo-Baroque or neo-Classical style. However, I did not copy any of this music from anyone else.

Sincerely,
M.E.

[BloozeGit]

	Originally Posted by deicruxified To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	yes i would love to go to spain as well... and as for the other parts of your post, that cleared up something because when it comes to music i have a difficult time sniffing out n's and s's although i made some observations with the people i play with.

I wouldn't know, I don't sniff people when I play with them...not music at least
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I guess every genre of music has the tradition vs modernisation debate going on. Segovia might not have liked it but Williams gave it a shot and made it work. That, to me is INTJ enough without having to think about the n's and s's of it.

This reminds me of a scene from the 80's movie Crossroads (not the Bratney Shpears one!) where the protagonist was a kid studying classical guitar at Juilliard who was obsessed with the blues. During a recital he played a flawless baroque sounding piece and then ended it off with a bluesy turnaround, earning him a sharp rebuke from the professor to "treat (name of composer) with more respect". He ended up going on a blues road-trip and played against the Devil (Steve Vai), where he then did blues with some classical thrown in. Talk about mixing it up!

[deicruxified]

	Originally Posted by BloozeGit To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I wouldn't know, I don't sniff people when I play with them...not music at least To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

lol... i got an uncle who's wife is his guitar... i dare not enter his room.

	Originally Posted by BloozeGit To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Segovia might not have liked it but Williams gave it a shot and made it work. That, to me is INTJ enough without having to think about the n's and s's of it.

when i first made the post on john williams, what i intuited is that he's an intj but as i've said before, in music, i find it hard to classify the n's and the s's. i got to identify my percussions prof as n not because of how he plays and composes but he's extremely introverted and would spend 70% of our session just talking... n because he jumps from one topic to another - percussions then to his car then to his kid then to his family then connects them all to percussions. lol . going back to williams, if he is indeed an intj then he waves our flag
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on segovia, i do think he had a different mission at that time and that is to put guitar on concierto and formal music lessons since guitar "was not considered" (i quote) a musical instrument at that time. what people consider musical instruments were the violin, the piano and some other wind instruments. hmm... unfortunately in our country there's still a discrimination on guitar in spite of the fact that as per history, a silent "romantic revolution" existed via guitar (people at that time used folk love songs as means to fight the spanish colonizers. but since they are love songs, the spaniards never had a clue and even enjoyed them.). only a few take up guitar as a major course in music because not much concerts were made for guitar. of course everyone wants to be a famous musician but everyone here thinks there's no money in guitar and it is only the musical instrument of boisterous drunkards along the streets. lol but then on spain, they have flamenco. i just think there has to be a williams or a segovia here to put people on a gestalt in music... me? hahahaha joke... but my friend and i were planning to make a scheme on guitar, wear bonnets, go to a park or any peaceful place for people (cemetery could be a nice place) and just play til we get a crowd - like travelling gypsies. we're going to do it in a few months or so. i wonder what the results would be.

[BloozeGit]

Originally Posted by deicruxified To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

on segovia, i do think he had a different mission at that time and that is to put guitar on concierto and formal music lessons since guitar "was not considered" (i quote) a musical instrument at that time. what people consider musical instruments were the violin, the piano and some other wind instruments. hmm... unfortunately in our country there's still a discrimination on guitar in spite of the fact that as per history, a silent "romantic revolution" existed via guitar (people at that time used folk love songs as means to fight the spanish colonizers. but since they are love songs, the spaniards never had a clue and even enjoyed them.). only a few take up guitar as a major course in music because not much concerts were made for guitar. of course everyone wants to be a famous musician but everyone here thinks there's no money in guitar and it is only the musical instrument of boisterous drunkards along the streets. lol but then on spain, they have flamenco. i just think there has to be a williams or a segovia here to put people on a gestalt in music... me? hahahaha joke... but my friend and i were planning to make a scheme on guitar, wear bonnets, go to a park or any peaceful place for people (cemetery could be a nice place) and just play til we get a crowd - like travelling gypsies. we're going to do it in a few months or so. i wonder what the results would be.

Well I'm guessing you must be Pinoy? I always thought playing music and guitar was a big part of life and culture there. Back in Singapore where I'm from there are lots of Filipino musicians making a living, and some of them are so good its scary. I can't imagine a social stigma being attached to playing guitar in a culture where music is such a big part, but then again you're there and I'm not.

As for travelling rough like a gypsy and spreading the music, it sure sounds like a good idea. Remember to bathe though...or not to sniff.
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[rocksteady]

I compose! (Electronic Dance Music, not quite in the spirit of the thread, I know)

[deicruxified]

	Originally Posted by BloozeGit To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Well I'm guessing you must be Pinoy?

bingo... pinay actually... hahaha

[toonia]

	Originally Posted by quartertone To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I'm going to say only Schoenberg, Bartok or Rachmaninoff. Composers are generally sensory type people, but the ones who experiment with new ideas are scientists.

I would say most popular music composers are sensory people, but in the classical tradition there is much use of iNtuitive thinking to create the structures. For example, the tradition of tonality in classical music is based on fractal patterns of sound. This kind of deep structure was created by composers without a conscious knowledge. The method for analyzing these tonal structures, Schenkerian Analysis, was not developed until into the next century.

Based on a study of his life and music, I propose that Beethoven was an INTJ. He seems like an iNtuitive dominant and was rigorous in his process and structures. He reworked his scores to create interrelationships between movements never before attempted. After composing his first two symphonies he went back to study counterpoint from the ground up to further master his technique. There is an emotional component to his music, but it is primarily philosophy in sound. As he was going deaf he considered giving up music to become a philosopher. The emotional aspect of his music is introverted feeling. He was basically devoid of extroverted feeling and offended many people with his directness and impatience with human nonsense.

My primary profession and doctorate is in composition.