[cutekoala]

Are we doomed?!

I was just thinking about this the other day when I got home from having been out with friends...I got not only ignored all evening, but one guy even called me ugly to my face. It upset me but for different reasons than most girls....for me what bothers me is the extent to which attractiveness- or rather simply looking 'average' seeing as the actual definition of whats atractive physically is whats most universally avaerage in terms of facial/bodily features and proportions...affords so much POWER to certain women. Its that that I envy most- the fact that it can be used as a tool to make things happen.

I'm not ugly by any means, but I just don't fit the mould of whats traditionally seen as attrative in a girl as well as say, some of my friends do and I was just thinking about how much social currency thats it gives you especially as a female in this world....so without THAT social currency, and also coupled with the fact that being an INTJ female puts you in a huge minority anyway and also acts as a social burden to a degree...my question is do you think that makes life a litlle harder? I don't want to seem like I see myself as a victim, but sometimes I just can't help thinking how much easier it would make life just to be able to blend in at least PHYSICALLY a little more because I find myself feeling so isolated personality-wise sometimes.

I know some more atrractive female INTJs would argue that its the other way round because of the fact that abilitities are underestimated etc. because of the bimbo stereotype that can be projected, but I beg to differ because it seems like that hurdle is a lot smaller than the several faced by women who don;t have their looks as a currency- especially when there's less guarantee of beign accepted on the basis of personality. I would argue that looks afford females a great amount of social power- I mean, they can be the basis for a whole career i.e. simply looking at 80% of female recording artists who sell a lot of records, its clear that whats selling is their image...so having the more 'obtuse' INTJ personality can be more easily overlooked because of the social acceptance that looking a certain way coems with.

I hope this wasn't too garbled, but this is an honest appeal to other INTJ women who are maybe on the plainish and not so fashionable side- do you often wonder the same? i.e that your INTJness woukd be less of a hinderance if you 'fit in' more looks-wise?

[eagleseven]

Find other INTJ guys. Problem solved.

New Problem: Finding INTJ guys.

[Storm]

Why are you letting people call you ugly to your face? What an asshole. Don't hang out with assholes.

[poetic intj]

I understand that you touched on many layers to this issue, but I want to bring up something that struck me as very ironic:

In my younger, more naive days, I have started threads in the past (not on this messageboard) asking why it is that girls don't like it when I tell them they look plain, but that I like them precisely for that.

Of course, it took me a while to find out the hard way that this compliment never goes over well, but at the same time it shows that everyone (including plain looking girls) subscribes to one standard of beauty, and people like me who have an unusual standard of beauty can end up inadvertently hurting them when I give them a compliment in my eyes.

From since I was very young I never liked the airbrushed, skinny supermodel look that everyone else does. I prefer more natural-looking, plainer girls who don't have a penchant for make-up and revealing clothing, but I just keep this to myself nowadays rather than say something and inadvertently hurt the fairer sex.

The moral of story: Your beef is with society in general and with males and females who both subscribe to one narrow definition of beauty.

[callalilly]

I have never been called ugly to my face, so that is one that would have been hard to swallow. I hope the person didn't lower your self-esteem through their careless words.

Secondly shallow people date people based on what they think they look like. Half of those artist are not that pretty its the make-up and digital touch-ups. Clothing plays a big part. Ugly people with "in style" clothes somehow become pretty. lol .

Thirdly I am not a group think person, personally I don't want to fit in. I want to be me.
would we have it easier if we were more "girly", "Feminine"? I doubt it, every person in life have difficulities so just because they have a certain appeal doesn't mean they are not doomed also.


Fourthly if it bothers you that much try it out. Save and have one of your more fashionable friends to help you pick out some outfits. If you like it adapt if not ...don't.

Lookwise is not even the half. I don't fit in thought wise. Its easier to change clothes than it is to change a mentality and if me and people don't bump on clothing then its thoughts.

With that said looks do afford women with a little social power. There are other ways to claim power though.You just have to choose which way is yours.

I agree with "poeticintj", a lot of males I meet like me for being different, thats the first thing they notice. Even though they are usually enfj or isfj.

[visitor]

I often times wonder if prettier girls are more likely to be hired. Having been thin before I feel that I have to try more now. In social situations, you gotta' just not be in those places where more shallow people are to roam.

[Polymath]

	Originally Posted by eagleseven To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Find other INTJ guys. Problem solved. New Problem: Finding INTJ guys.

LOL, yeah. Plain INTJ-type girls are hotter than hell--definitely my theoretical ideal--but they don't seem to exist except on the net.
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[Megalomania]

	Originally Posted by Storm To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Why are you letting people call you ugly to your face? What an asshole. Don't hang out with assholes.

Probably better than them doing it behind her back. At least now she knows to avoid them.

[Monte314]

Males have to face their own version of this... if you are short, over/under weight, not "ripped", have skin problems, don't have a decent car, live on the "wrong" side of the tracks, are awkward on the playing field... it's the same thing.

Unfortunately, those of us who face these challenges often think that considering a relationship with someone else who is in the same boat is "settling". The fact is that most people's "quality" as mates long-term doesn't begin to become clear until they move into young adulthood (I'm thinking around 25 or so here).

My experience has taught me that the attributes we obsess over as teenagers end up meaning virtually nothing for long-term success and happiness. I know that isn't much consolation when you are young and lonely, but it is true, nonetheless.

This won't solve your problem, but it might bring out a little smile... it helped me when I was young (not the DC's of course: the Supremes):


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[Syntax]

The "social currency" that you've mentioned pisses me off no end. Whenever I hear someone say "girls have it easier when they get pulled over because cops let them off tickets" my IMMEDIATE thought is not "yeah, girls have it easier"(although it may be true), but "FUCK those cops for being sexist assholes".

The prejudice against "mousy" women is not the fault of women(attractive or otherwise). It is the fault of dumbfuck men.



Also, if someone ever calls you "ugly" to your face at a bar again...smash a beer stein across their face and let them know what it's like. If you can cause a permanent scar, that would be ideal.

	Originally Posted by Monte314
	Males have to face their own version of this... if you are short, over/under weight, not "ripped", have skin problems, don't have a decent car, live on the "wrong" side of the tracks, are awkward on the playing field... it's the same thing.

I was once called a "pizza-faced nigger nose", and I have psoriasis. I stand by my beer stein idea...

[JanusthePhoenix]

Well, it's like this: 'plain' looking girls don't have it off as bad as you might think. I just read about some study that found that people find 'normal' looking faces more pleasing than over-the-top supermodel features. That is, people like people who look like everyone else more than airbrushed supermodels with tons of plastic surgery.

Secondly, I've seen guys way fatter and uglier than me pull in more girls than I could ever hope to, and some very unattractive girls that had a small platoon of good looking guys vying for their favor. Not only are looks not everything, I argue that they are much less important than charm, wit, and seductive skill. I've posted this is several threads now: these are skills that can be learned. Since you'd be learning these skills the hard way and you don't rely on physical attractiveness to fill in the personality void like 'supermodels' do, you'd actually have a social advantage if you work at it.

[TigerL]

The majority of people are attracted by how you look initially but they will stick around because of your other attributes. The ones that like you only for how you look --- not worth your time unless you are looking for a relationship only based on appearance.

It's hard to change society so to get what you want, play a bit by the rules. As women, we have lots of ways to change our appearance and a little work can go a long way. I'm plain myself but I clean up OK. You don't even need to dress up everyday, just for special events to give them a taste of another facet. You don't need to conform to the trends; develop a style that works for your body type and features. After they're hooked, keep them intrigued with your personality.

Also, don't underestimate yourself. As a teen, I was on the chubby side and had a mother who berated me about how I looked. It made me doubt my appearance and made me oblivious to people who did like me. In particular, my best male friend at the time, who happened to be gorgeous. It took me a long while to realize that he really did like me as a girl.

For fun: professional photographer takes pictures of people on the street and their style


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[Syntax]

Originally Posted by JanusthePhoenix To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Well, it's like this: 'plain' looking girls don't have it off as bad as you might think. I just read about some study that found that people find 'normal' looking faces more pleasing than over-the-top supermodel features. That is, people like people who look like everyone else more than airbrushed supermodels with tons of plastic surgery. Secondly, I've seen guys way fatter and uglier than me pull in more girls than I could ever hope to, and some very unattractive girls that had a small platoon of good looking guys vying for their favor. Not only are looks not everything, I argue that they are much less important than charm, wit, and seductive skill. I've posted this is several threads now: these are skills that can be learned. Since you'd be learning these skills the hard way and you don't rely on physical attractiveness to fill in the personality void like 'supermodels' do, you'd actually have a social advantage if you work at it.

Link the study for us?

[Charly]

	Originally Posted by Syntax To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Link the study for us?

First of all have a look at the physical attractiveness page to get an idea of what the determinants are.

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Then this one which is the phenomenon to which janus refers to.

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janus: please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Episteme]

I actually geek up a little for work, having the opposite problem of people going to the guys for tech help if I was dolled up. Most people know better now but I don't like them to forget. If I have a meeting, I'll sometimes even go home to throw on the jeans and t-shirt and brush out the curls.

Saying what's already been said a different way, do something for yourself that makes you feel good. Buy some new makeup or some new shoes. This will help your self esteem.

Now for the other part, people that judge other people by looks are jerks. It's kind of funny, most people like that end up being miserable anyway. They surround themselves with other superficial people. Then they make each other's lives miserable because they're all so superficial and nasty.

I'd rather be around an INTJ with no hair and a drooling problem than someone like that. You seem like a nice person, they're really not worth your time or thought.

[Tirannwn]

I'm in the same position, except that nobody has called me ugly to my face. Logically speaking it doesn't make much sense to me. I'm just a little bit over/borderline on those "ideal weight" standards, so it's not weight that would seem to be the problem, except for the extremely shallow, and yet I still don't get all the hype that says that women have it easy with finding people. Given, I haven't really been single for years, but none of the ones who dated me were really attracted to me: They all came out at varying points in the relationship.

I don't know about INTJ girls in general, but I tend to wear very plain clothing and attempt to avoid attention out of the classroom, or some other venue where I feel at ease and/or confident in my abilities. Needless to say, I have never been approached by anybody.

[JanusthePhoenix]

Originally Posted by Charly To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

First of all have a look at the physical attractiveness page to get an idea of what the determinants are. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Then this one which is the phenomenon to which janus refers to. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. janus: please correct me if I'm wrong.

Nope, that's what I was talking about. The article was in a magazine, so I'm afraid I can't link. Men's Health, I believe.

[Samoan Corleone]

Cutekoala, think of it this way: if you find a guy who likes you now, while you're without makeup or designer clothes, then you know that he's for real. That's the advantage the "plain" have.

[leeser920]

I don't think looking plain equates to ugliness or being unattractive. A woman can be plain and still look amazing as hell. A lot of the women I tend to be attracted to aren't T 'n A touting bombshells, they're Plain Janes who know how to work with what was given to them.

And what are you doing hanging out at places where a man would outright tell a woman she's ugly? Perhaps instead of hanging out at places where low lives like him hang out, hang out somewhere where the social currency is the same as yours?

[khadi]

I would not want to be very attractive and intj. I can't stand being objectified. I'd expect more unwelcome attention
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[Tough Love]

I WISH the way i 'blend in physically' was my big issue. Im more concerned about whether or not im going mad.
I see everything as relative. For you, you have issues with how you look. For some girls who seem to have it all look wise, some may be lacking in the intellectual/ mental capabilities (which i believe are more valuable), or perhaps are emotionally unstable. I like to remind myself that everyone is given as equal share in life, and where you may be lacking, you most definately make it up elsewhere.
Plus, with being good looking comes its own problems.

Another point is that the way you look to someone can change depending on the attributes you portray. often when you see people in photographs they seem a certain way, when you meet them in person they come across entirely different look wise. I think in this time where everything is photoshoped and people in poses are to be found all over your network of freidns, its difficult to see yourself as normal if your not the same. But something ive learnt is to class my talents and beliefs as more desirable to me than superficiality. You'de be surprised how the angst goes away evertually.

[Zhen]

	Originally Posted by Samoan Corleone To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Cutekoala, think of it this way: if you find a guy who likes you now, while you're without makeup or designer clothes, then you know that he's for real. That's the advantage the "plain" have.

I totally subscribe to this e.g I have never been stuffed...if you doll yourself up then you have the reverse problem of attracting too much unwanted attention from losers as well. Basically dolling up is a huge waste of time energy and resources- ultimately isn't it all about finding that someone who still loves you when you just wake up in the morning or when you are totally at your most unpalatable? It's these men that are the keepers
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The others are likely to start chasing the next hottest youngest thing...looks and beauty fade...not to mention almost anybody can look really good with the right makeup, wardrobe etc and everybody has different ideas as to what they perceive as "beautiful".

Don't forget the value of being a unique and cool individual...it is easy and common enough to find people easy on the eyes but not all the rest...

INTJ-ness IS quite a social limitation but there is always hope while you are still engaged in activities where people can get to know you over time and get past the initial prickles...

---------- Post added 02-22-2010 at 10:39 PM ----------

	Originally Posted by khadi To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I would not want to be very attractive and intj. I can't stand being objectified. I'd expect more unwelcome attention To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

and yeah, who wants to be reduced to an object?
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[Antares]

Being "plain", or "ugly" has been a crutch for me in my younger years. I've had boys call me ugly in grade school, and my social disinterest/awkwardness didn't help. Truth be told, I wasn't an extremely delicate or pretty girl. I could even be called ugly. That gave me hell in middle school. Hell for my self esteem, that is. I seem to develop both cognitively and emotionally earlier than other children, and when they were first dating, I was already in my "teenage girl" stage, and, as it can be said.

I was mentally a teenager, but physically, I was still ugly and awkward kid with dorky glasses and tasteless outfits (baggy, old, worn-out t-shirts, hastily donned shorts, a boyish ponytail, baby fat in all the wrong places) who couldn't really string together five words without stuttering. On top of it all, I came off as "trying too hard to fit in", in hindsight. But can you blame me? I couldn't figure out why the hell nobody can ever accept me for who I am. Nobody wanted to date me. Nobody even asked me to dance. The only boy who did was grounded the day of the dance, and turned out to be a desperate poser who'd go with any girl- any girl at all to make himself feel good.

I don't think I'm quite so ugly anymore, and I'm receiving a fair share of male attention now. In fact, I've had many people tell me that I'm very attractive. Only now, I'm not so interested in dating either. Middle school gave me scars that I won't soon forget; they're as visible, metaphorically, as the one I acquired on my forearm two years ago from a stray wire. I'm still the standoffish, distant, socially awkward (inwardly now. I've lost much of my usual stutter) person I always was. What changed was my looks, and it isn't a particularly cheerful thought that guys would only look at me because I'm somewhat more pleasing to look at.

Maybe I'm bitter, but I've sworn not to date anyone who went to middle school with me. Personally, I find it hard to be very forgiving about being called ugly in my childhood and being told that no guy would ever date me, oh, and the cherry on the top: being scoffed at when asked when I want to marry because some guys don't think I'll be able to "bag" a man, and if I do, it's going to be some pitiful (because they're married to me), equally ugly loser. Sorry about the rant, and I'll be the first to admit it, I don't feel vindicated. At, fucking, all. And yes, I'm still irrationally angry and wounded over my past. I've had to hold my tongue to keep myself from disparaging some of these people with my most brutal insults, but it's all worth it.

[Aurelia]

I can't believe a guy said that to your face. How awful. When it comes to appearance some people feel that if you don't measure up, it's perfectly fine to be cruel. Almost as if because you're fat, have problem skin, dress/behave awkwardly etc. that you deserve it.

Being attractive does give you social power. More emphasis is placed on appearance than ever before. Being a female INTJ is difficult in itself without having that added pressure. With that said, you are not doomed. There is so much more to you than just your appearance. If I could have had a conversation with my 15 year-old self, I would have encouraged myself to choose to be amazing no matter what anyone else thought. In the long run, none of these negative people will matter. If you take the time to believe in yourself and continue to pursue your dreams, you'll find yourself in a much better place in the years to come.

Oh, and I also agree that you should stand up for yourself the next time some moron decides to put you down. You'll feel much better about yourself in the future and are less likely to carry the hurt inside.

[LionsPride]

Originally Posted by cutekoala To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Are we doomed?! I was just thinking about how much social currency thats it gives you especially as a female in this world....so without THAT social currency, and also coupled with the fact that being an INTJ female puts you in a huge minority anyway and also acts as a social burden to a degree...my question is do you think that makes life a litlle harder? I know some more atrractive female INTJs would argue that its the other way round because of the fact that abilitities are underestimated etc. because of the bimbo stereotype that can be projected, but I beg to differ because it seems like that hurdle is a lot smaller than the several faced by women who don;t have their looks as a currency- especially when there's less guarantee of beign accepted on the basis of personality

To some degree, I think this issue is a grass is greener outlook and as long as a person thinks the grass is greener on the other side, they aren't going to make the most of the cards they have been dealt. What people tend to do is take a situation they find difficult and decide that if they were more/less attractive it would be easier and then resent that it's like that. What they don't do is realize the number of situations that were already easier because they weren't more/less attractive.

The other issue is the difference between what you might like as a fantasy and what would actually make you happy. Obviously being called ugly is something I think everyone could do without, but what is your goal for these interactions in general? Do you actually want guys jockeying in line to be with you or are you actually looking for THE guy you want to have a long term relationship with? If you are looking for the former, then yes, being more attractive is likely going to help you, but if you are looking for THE guy, then being plain is not actually going to hinder that. What you are looking for is compatibility and being more attractive doesn't mean that the quantity of guys available are automatically going to be more compatible or able to offer a happy relationship. Given that the reason that there are more guys to begin with is that they are attracted to looks, I'd say that all the more attractive person is getting is more noise, not more options.

You also touched on careers and there have been studies that suggested that more attractive people tend to be more trusted, thought to have more capability, etc., but what exactly do you think your looks could do for you that your capability couldn't? Do you really think that what it could do for you would outweigh the other issues that it might cause? Issues like having coworkers try to date you rather than listen to you, have supervisors that make passes at you, other less attractive women give you a hard time because they think you have it easier? I realize you think it might grease the wheels a little, but unless your career is image dependent (model/actor/etc.) I don't see why a person that is capable can't go just as far. Remember, looks fade, capability does not and a career is not a sprint it's a distance race.