[Haphazard]

INTJs don't make up a large percent of the population -- according to Keirsey, we make up 1% or less. There are other types that don't make up much of the population, either.

Introverts (I) only make up about 1/3rd of the population. If you clump this with the fact that introversion has evidence to be physiological, that humans are recognized as 'social animals' and generally find it difficult to survive alone, and that a lot of introverts have above average intelligence, well, it kind of sounds like the intelligence may have developed, either through nature or nurture, as survival to cope with what an introvert doesn't naturally have. 'Loners' have always been mistrusted, from witch-burning to fears that anybody who's 'alone' at schools will come one day and shoot up the place.

For most of human history, most humans have lived in smaller communities and grown food while very small percentages have ruled or traded. It's only very recently that the world's become so easy for INTJ-types to live in. Are specific MBTI types more common because it's been easier for them to live in society as it is and through natural selection, or is it through nurture, and for some reason certain MBTI types show up as freaks anyway?

I think the only way to be able to test this is to look at the demographics of MBTI and general personality-types in the shift pre- to post- industrialization, but this isn't going to happen unless we type a large enough percentage both now and then get a time machine to test a large enough group pre-industrialized.

Yeah, likely both nature and nurture has a hand in this, but still. How much?

[DeadSpace]

INTJ's can and do function in society quite well...~~>social 'faces' just prefer not too, post modern it would have been much the same i think. Shamans, wise men, the advisors to royalty, businessmen, generals, etc. A merchant, caravan operator...buying and trading goods long distances sounds like an ideal intj job. Low contact with people but a select few for extended periods of time.
Nature and nurture, tis both, nature i think sets up the pre-condition...a propensity for a certain mindset, very few nurture triggers needed thereafter. Imagine we all have vastly different backgrounds and upbringing...so nurture seems a very small role in the overall intj mindset.

[meanlittlechimp]

A friend of mine who got her Masters in Psychology (and is a Korean native) told me that 75% of Korea is introverted. So ENTPs for instance are one of the rarest types there while INTJs were much more common (I think 6%), interestingly she also mentioned that ISTJs were by far the largest group, which had more than all the NTs combined.

She also said MBTI was taken more seriously there and they started making the tests mandatory by high school.

[Uytuun]

meanlittlechimp,

Is that introversion as in not generally being energised when around people? Somehow when I think of countries such as Korea I think of a different sort of introversion, more culturally determined too.

Isn't Europe supposed to be the theoretical NT society?

[SShack]

I still feel as though those percentages are out of date and that we have greater numbers of NTs in my generation (Gen X) than we did with the emotional and idealistic Boomers. Does anybody know when those percentages were last updated?

[Homini Lupus]

Maybe there is also an adverse selection here. If you are extroverted you probably want people to know. If you are introverted you probably don't care.

[eternaltriangle]

MBTI is not hereditary (just look at people's posts about their parent's type), so clearly it is not a natural selection sort of issue. I agree that social factors in the present may encourage more INTJ's - and there is always a lag between social values and what is optimal.

Some factors that make somebody likely to be INTJ (asperger's), however, ARE hereditary. It seems obvious as to why fewer people with asperger's would reproduce (poor social skills do not help attract mates), and I wouldn't be surprised if it increased (actually I know that the number of autistic children has increased markedly - this may reflect a shift in society that makes people with autism more likely to reproduce, or alternately I bet its all about better diagnosis).

[Jgib5328]

INTJs & ENTJs are probably rare because there can't be too many leaders. If you think about it, when we were just a bunch of hunter gatherers, we needed one or two leaders and a whole bunch of followers. If everyone were an INTJ, nothing would get done, because nobody would be willing to follow the other and subordinate themselves. I think it just has to do with leadership in the human society, too many leaders = failure.

As for introverts, well yeah you needed to be social to survive. Therefore evolutionary, it makes sense to be extroverted, because it generally ensures you are social and more likely to survive.

[meanlittlechimp]

	Originally Posted by Uytuun To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	meanlittlechimp, Isn't Europe supposed to be the theoretical NT society?

Why do you say that? What makes a continent or even a nation on a continent, NT?

	Originally Posted by eternaltriangle To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	MBTI is not hereditary (just look at people's posts about their parent's type), so clearly it is not a natural selection sort of issue. I agree that social factors in the present may encourage more INTJ's - and there is always a lag between social values and what is optimal.

I don't think anyone claims that MBTI is hereditary in the sense that an INTJ reproducing with an ENFP will produce either an ENFP or INTJ. But just because that isn't the case, doesn't mean certain traits (E/I, N/S etc) aren't hereditary. It's like saying two short parents who produce tall children mean height is NOT heritable (which it is). It has to do with recessive genes (and occasionally mutation). Obviously nutrition plays a part, but there is a variance or range that indeed makes height heritable.

My argument is that if biologists are pretty sure certain traits are heritable such as OCD, then it stands to reason that at least in some extreme cases (J can be heritable). I don't think you can be OCD and P at the same time, but I could be wrong.

Furthermore, if extroverts and introverts can be detected in a PET scan, that implies extroversion/introversion can be heritable (as their brain is actually hard wired differently). Just because we don't understand the exact mechanism because of it's complexity (or be able to predict offspring MBTI type by it's parents); doesn't mean certain MBTI functions are not fixed at birth or inheritable (such as extroversion).

[eternaltriangle]

If the number of traits is as numerous as you mention, then how is this debate different from the nature vs. nurture debate on any other given subject (a rather tired old debate)?

I can see why introvert tendencies would be less common, but the other three are hard to say. Judging people are more likely to keep their act together and live up to societal standards (more likely to get married, for instance, and remain committed). Feelers may be better at attracting mates (or more likely to desire them), but are also more likely to do stupid things that will get them killed, and probably less productive overall.

What is more interesting to me is to think of the national character of different countries... Canada strikes me as somewhat ISTP... Canadians are shy, quiet people, that tend not to think big. They do think (or at least don't like to show emotions so much), and are very open and noncommittal ideology. The British, by contrast, seem more ISTJ. France: ENTJ (NT particularly because of their school system). Germany: INTJ. Italy: ENFP. USA: ENFJ. Japan: ISTJ.

These are sort of stereotypes, but I am trying to think of the kind of person the national institutions and culture of each country would promote as ideal.

[meanlittlechimp]

	Originally Posted by eternaltriangle To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	If the number of traits is as numerous as you mention, then how is this debate different from the nature vs. nurture debate on any other given subject (a rather tired old debate)?

It's not different and that is why it's complex. Complexity doesn't mean we shouldn't study it however. If you think the debate is tired, tell that to all the doctors, psychologists, biologists, neuroscientists, educators and chemists who work on the question every day.

	Originally Posted by eternaltriangle To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	These are sort of stereotypes, but I am trying to think of the kind of person the national institutions and culture of each country would promote as ideal.

I guess it's a fun exercise but it's not very serious, and I don't think it will lead anywhere. I mean I can debate that France is not ENTJ at all, since ENTJs are known as domineering, aggressive and determined - somehow that doesn't jive with my image of France. I would go with ENFP. I can't imagine having a serious debate on things like that since we're really stretching.

I would say it's about as useful to discuss as relating animals by type. Fun but that's all it is. Here is an example.

INTP - Orangutan (solitary, slothlike and prone to ponder questions like, "if a tree falls, and no one hears it...)
ENTP - Chimp (they like to throw feces at you)
ENTJ - German Shephard (they like to bark orders)
INTJ - Panther (solitary, silent and deadly)
ENFJ - Prairie Dog (they talk a lot and are always busy, and are as cute as a button!)
INFJ - Owl (they gaze upon others while analyzing their every action)
INFP - Platypus (mysterious and misunderstood)
ENFP - Hyena (they like to travel in packs and laugh a lot)
ESTP - Wolf (also like to travel in packs and laugh, but are more likely to bite)
ESFP - Rabbit (they love reproducing as frequently as possible)
ISTP - Snake (predators that can bite if handled improperly)
ISFP - Panda (cute, lovable, lazy and harmless)
ESFJ - Magpie (loves gossiping, high on their moral perch)
ISFJ - Beaver (cute hardworking mammals that love a comfortable home)
ISTJ - Oxen (stubborn but handles a heavy workload without complaining)
ESTJ - Border Collie (good at mobilizing disorganized hordes)

[Aoiluna]

I think that there is a possibility of a relation to mbti type and culture. For example, countries like the US, Great Britain, Australia, Canada, and the Netherlands are extremely individualist while countries like Pakistan, Columbia, Indonesia, and Ecuador are more collectivist.

In individualistic cultures, people are more apt to speak out as a means of resolving conflict while collectivist cultures tend to use avoidance. A good way to differentiate would be "the squeaky wheel gets the grease" for an individualistic culture and "the nail that sticks up gets pounded" for a collectivist culture. One glorifies speaking up to be rewarded while the latter appreciates blending in and identifying with a group.

Im not pinpointing specific mbti types as individualistic or collectivist because its much more complex than that. Every culture has differences, as subtle as some may be. Different factors could make a big impact on the turnout of personality types in a culture.

I would love to research this someday. If anyone has a link showing different mbti type percentages for different countries I would love to have it.

[Bluestocking]

It's both environmental and genetic and I would be willing to bet that the environmental factor starts in the womb, when the fetus is bathed in the mother's stress hormones or affected by whatever else is influencing her emotions. It would make a certain amount of sense if a culture high in people with genes that make them prefer introversion would result in a Korea or a Japan or Finland. You see the opposite with the number of extroverts in American culture, which means that introverts here are more likely to feel like the odd person out. I certainly did as a kid. If I had a dollar for every teacher who said "Smile!" or "Why are you here all by yourself? Go play with your friends!" I'd be a rich woman. I have a higher number of introverts in my family (with a couple of uncles who are engineers to boot.)

[errrzarrr]

I agree. I live en Latin america. The caribbean. And oh man people here are very outgoing, colectivist and extroverted and less trended to think on long-term.

I had the same problems bluestocking said.

[meanlittlechimp]

Yes, I think it's interesting to think about society in culture in those terms (collectivist vs individualistic) For example in Korea, Japan - you write your address: country first, then province, street, building and finally your name.

I also think it's an interesting question whether Koreans are born introvert and thus society conformed to that innate difference or the culture impacts those who are borderline to take on more introvert behavior. Or possibly over time, they had external factors that weeded out the reproductive chance of risk taking extroverts who are more likely to draw unwanted attention during a long standing repressive regime that lasted centuries.

But going so far as to say Germany is ISTJ, and France is ENTJ etc is going to far, in a serious discussion anyways.

[lordrrr]

Originally Posted by meanlittlechimp To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

A friend of mine who got her Masters in Psychology (and is a Korean native) told me that 75% of Korea is introverted. So ENTPs for instance are one of the rarest types there while INTJs were much more common (I think 6%), interestingly she also mentioned that ISTJs were by far the largest group, which had more than all the NTs combined. She also said MBTI was taken more seriously there and they started making the tests mandatory by high school.

ISTJ's in korea do not suprise me at ALL.

[TheLastMohican]

Originally Posted by meanlittlechimp To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

It's not different and that is why it's complex. Complexity doesn't mean we shouldn't study it however. If you think the debate is tired, tell that to all the doctors, psychologists, biologists, neuroscientists, educators and chemists who work on the question every day. I guess it's a fun exercise but it's not very serious, and I don't think it will lead anywhere. I mean I can debate that France is not ENTJ at all, since ENTJs are known as domineering, aggressive and determined - somehow that doesn't jive with my image of France. I would go with ENFP. I can't imagine having a serious debate on things like that since we're really stretching. I would say it's about as useful to discuss as relating animals by type. Fun but that's all it is. Here is an example. INTP - Orangutan (solitary, slothlike and prone to ponder questions like, "if a tree falls, and no one hears it...) ENTP - Chimp (they like to throw feces at you) ENTJ - German Shephard (they like to bark orders) INTJ - Panther (solitary, silent and deadly) ENFJ - Prairie Dog (they talk a lot and are always busy, and are as cute as a button!) INFJ - Owl (they gaze upon others while analyzing their every action) INFP - Platypus (mysterious and misunderstood) ENFP - Hyena (they like to travel in packs and laugh a lot) ESTP - Wolf (also like to travel in packs and laugh, but are more likely to bite) ESFP - Rabbit (they love reproducing as frequently as possible) ISTP - Snake (predators that can bite if handled improperly) ISFP - Panda (cute, lovable, lazy and harmless) ESFJ - Magpie (loves gossiping, high on their moral perch) ISFJ - Beaver (cute hardworking mammals that love a comfortable home) ISTJ - Oxen (stubborn but handles a heavy workload without complaining) ESTJ - Border Collie (good at mobilizing disorganized hordes)

I love being characterized as a panther. Excellent choice.

No, seriously.

[lordrrr]

Originally Posted by meanlittlechimp To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

It's not different and that is why it's complex. Complexity doesn't mean we shouldn't study it however. If you think the debate is tired, tell that to all the doctors, psychologists, biologists, neuroscientists, educators and chemists who work on the question every day. I guess it's a fun exercise but it's not very serious, and I don't think it will lead anywhere. I mean I can debate that France is not ENTJ at all, since ENTJs are known as domineering, aggressive and determined - somehow that doesn't jive with my image of France. I would go with ENFP. I can't imagine having a serious debate on things like that since we're really stretching. I would say it's about as useful to discuss as relating animals by type. Fun but that's all it is. Here is an example. INTP - Orangutan (solitary, slothlike and prone to ponder questions like, "if a tree falls, and no one hears it...) ENTP - Chimp (they like to throw feces at you) ENTJ - German Shephard (they like to bark orders) INTJ - Panther (solitary, silent and deadly) ENFJ - Prairie Dog (they talk a lot and are always busy, and are as cute as a button!) INFJ - Owl (they gaze upon others while analyzing their every action) INFP - Platypus (mysterious and misunderstood) ENFP - Hyena (they like to travel in packs and laugh a lot) ESTP - Wolf (also like to travel in packs and laugh, but are more likely to bite) ESFP - Rabbit (they love reproducing as frequently as possible) ISTP - Snake (predators that can bite if handled improperly) ISFP - Panda (cute, lovable, lazy and harmless) ESFJ - Magpie (loves gossiping, high on their moral perch) ISFJ - Beaver (cute hardworking mammals that love a comfortable home) ISTJ - Oxen (stubborn but handles a heavy workload without complaining) ESTJ - Border Collie (good at mobilizing disorganized hordes)

Excellent list, though I would put INTP's as baboons. I mean just look at Rafeekee from the Lion King!

[Antares]

	Originally Posted by lordrrr To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Excellent list, though I would put INTP's as baboons. I mean just look at Rafeekee from the Lion King!

The solitary, silent and deadly fits peregrine falcons too. They're sleek, swift and precise. Those birds of prey are usually characterized as goal-oriented too.

[TheLastMohican]

	Originally Posted by Antares To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	The solitary, silent and deadly fits peregrine falcons too. They're sleek, swift and precise. Those birds of prey are usually characterized as goal-oriented too.

Yes, it turns out there are number of animals that would fit well. Sharks, hawks, cheetahs and the list goes on.
How come all of those are predators?
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[Darkmist]

I think evolutionary is more possible than hereditary from parents, grandparents etc. In the distant past we each had a role to play. ISTP took the risks, INTJ advised, ENTJ led, ESTJ were the worker bee directors, INFJ made everyone happy so we all got along (as much as we can get along) and ISTJ were the worker bees themselves, and so on.

Look at other animals. they have distinct personality differences. My last dog was ok with other dogs and was a glutton who chewed on bones and loved to swim and fetch. The one I have now (full beagle as to half) is pretty much the opposite. Why the differences?

Because everyone has specific talents in the evolutionary big picture. And all of the talents work together to form a whole that then was able to survive.

[enWTFp]

I'd love to have the chance to analyze some MBTI statistic over the countries of the world. It's hard to find such good one, though.
I can easily imagine some centuries ago SJs to have been in much stronger social position, than they are now. There was a period of "revolutions", probably the whole 20th century, when people were criticizing heavily the SJ-way of thinking. And now even this criticizing is already a cliche.


Rafeekee could be INFJ too. They are always a bit crazy and have ascetic faces. They believe in things like connection between an image on a tree and someone's life. They are into the occult stuff. He is also more passionate than impartial. And is motivated to help Simba to become who he was born to be. I can see the INTP perspective, but I'd type him INFJ.

[blckprljinju]

Originally Posted by meanlittlechimp To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

A friend of mine who got her Masters in Psychology (and is a Korean native) told me that 75% of Korea is introverted. So ENTPs for instance are one of the rarest types there while INTJs were much more common (I think 6%), interestingly she also mentioned that ISTJs were by far the largest group, which had more than all the NTs combined. She also said MBTI was taken more seriously there and they started making the tests mandatory by high school.

This seems pretty likely judging by what I've observed about it.
ISTJ's running around making rules and laws about things, and the NT's will just ignore them... and it's clearly visible within the country... if you know where to look. Otherwise, most of the population will look at you like you're dirt if you don't wear a "certain brand, certain hairstyle, certain weight"... glad I got out of the country before they drove me mad (I'm not good at... "fitting in").

They take a lot of things seriously.. until recently, you had to have a certain length of haircut attending secondary school, as well as certain size of uniform, whatever... too many rules and punishments for "disobedience".

I remember, when I was still living there, that is; they made us line up in the hallway and take blood tests, to ID our blood types. This was first grade.... they really like "categorizing" over there... like being a certain blood type is important... no clue. They could be using it for some kind of behind the door secret "population brainwashing technique" or something.

[Nikita]

Originally Posted by meanlittlechimp To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

INTP - Orangutan (solitary, slothlike and prone to ponder questions like, "if a tree falls, and no one hears it...) ENTP - Chimp (they like to throw feces at you) ENTJ - German Shephard (they like to bark orders) INTJ - Panther (solitary, silent and deadly) ENFJ - Prairie Dog (they talk a lot and are always busy, and are as cute as a button!) INFJ - Owl (they gaze upon others while analyzing their every action) INFP - Platypus (mysterious and misunderstood) ENFP - Hyena (they like to travel in packs and laugh a lot) ESTP - Wolf (also like to travel in packs and laugh, but are more likely to bite) ESFP - Rabbit (they love reproducing as frequently as possible) ISTP - Snake (predators that can bite if handled improperly) ISFP - Panda (cute, lovable, lazy and harmless) ESFJ - Magpie (loves gossiping, high on their moral perch) ISFJ - Beaver (cute hardworking mammals that love a comfortable home) ISTJ - Oxen (stubborn but handles a heavy workload without complaining) ESTJ - Border Collie (good at mobilizing disorganized hordes)

I see ENTJ as more of an Eagle (vision, daring, heights) or a Lion (think King of the Jungle and Aslan). A
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perhaps.

p.s. If a tree falls and no one hears it, it still made a sound. Birds would have flown, insects would have scurried, the woods would have absorbed the fall. Human experience is not the arbiter of the natural world.