[CWC]

To what degree of extend do INTJs think there is no need to chase the object of affection when mutual sentiments exist in both parties wanting real relationship?

Adding on to clarity, we shall make the presumption that both parties have known each other sufficiently well-compatible personalities, values, conduct and et cetera
In this case, does going through the customary courtship ritual make any practical sense, or is it a momentary social placement for purpose of ego inflation?

It, to me, is exceedingly irrational for courtship ritual to be a societal necessary from viewpoint on basis of economics when the same degree of interpersonal relationship can equally be established with, or without going through a social play.

Thinking thus, I am however met with the dilemma of thinking otherwise after having witnessed, and knowing all along courtship to be an instrumental social tool in the animal kingdom; that perhaps nature has necessitate courtship ritual as a means to compound sexual attraction as always seen in the behaviours of animals prior to mating.

[El Cas]

I think that if the parties involved have already established the standard items that would have been set by courtship then there is very little need to courtship. The only item that courtship would provide in this situation would be just the formality for other around them to view said relationship as true and not as speculation.

[Silverity]

I'm a fan of skipping the courtship, the dating and all the uncertainties that come with it. I like to simply 'fall' into a relationship and be casual and cozy. We are friends, aaaand then we are together. No need for the middle mess!

[Latro]

Those of you that have "fallen" into relationships, how sure are you that the ritual didn't actually happen without you noticing? I can easily imagine innuendo and jokes among friends whose sexualities coincide drifting down the spectrum from friendly to flirty until eventually you're basically flirting as in the ritual, with the only difference being that you know each other. This then gets followed by a normal outing among friends that by the end of it was quite definitively a date, in one way or another...and then you're dating. How much different is this from the "ritual"? To me it just seems less formal.

[cannotseethe]

	Originally Posted by Latro To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Those of you that have "fallen" into relationships, how sure are you that the ritual didn't actually happen without you noticing?

This. Courtship is supposed to be fun. INTJs have offbeat notions of fun. We're still courting, in ways that may look and feel uncomfortable to other types just as more conventional courtship rituals feel uncomfortable to us.

[Blse]

How exactly do we define the courtship ritual? I personally am not opposed to rituals as long as they are clearly defined and can be easily navigated.

To me, as I understand it, the courtship ritual goes as follows:

a) Small talk to build rapport --> b) Talk over coffee & exchange of phone #s --> c) lunch --> d) dinner.

However, from what I've witnessed it seems more common for people to simply "hang out" and attraction builds much in the way Latro describes. This is actually somewhat more uncomfortable for me, since it's less clear cut and straight forward than the traditional courtship ritual. On the other hand, it comes with the added benefit that even if there isn't mutual romantic interest, the establishment of a friendship is more easily realized.

---------- Post added 02-09-2010 at 11:21 AM ----------

	Originally Posted by cannotseethe To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	This. Courtship is supposed to be fun. INTJs have offbeat notions of fun. We're still courting, in ways that may look and feel uncomfortable to other types just as more conventional courtship rituals feel uncomfortable to us.

Yes, and that's not just limited to introverts. I much prefer a logical process and don't find any fun in uncertainty.

[plotthickens]

The Chase is fun. So is courtship. These rituals are fun and important even after a relationship has been established or it goes stale.

Is this thread essentially "Dating is stupid"/ "I don't like to feel unsure"/ "Valentine's day is coming up and I'm single and want to Sour Grape it"?

[rain]

	Originally Posted by plotthickens To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	The Chase is fun. So is courtship.

Yes, I agree. Esp playfully teasing each other, pushing each other's buttons, and inspiring each other through depths beyond mere perception. Witty dialogue a must.

[LogicLady]

It depends what one means by courtship.

I don't like games, but I like many of the other things people do in courtship/dating and I think a partner should go out of his/her way to show his/her affection and prove that he/she is a persistent, highly-interested partner. But I don't think that stuff ends once two people get together. I still value special signs of affection from my INTJ husband after years of marriage.

[fiver]

	Originally Posted by CWC To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	To what degree of extend do INTJs think there is no need to chase the object of affection when mutual sentiments exist in both parties wanting real relationship?

Unless the object of your affection is another like-minded INTJ, I think you might be asking the wrong question for the result you seek. IOW, some of us like the chase. Just sayin'.

[rain]

	Originally Posted by fiver To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Unless the object of your affection is another like-minded INTJ, I think you might be asking the wrong question for the result you seek. IOW, some of us like the chase. Just sayin'.

Reminds me of a line from an Ezra Pound poem:

I chased her until she caught me

[Rohsiph]

Disagree about the "chase" being fun. We could define "chase" to force my hand into agreement, but understanding it as the process of one party aggressively pursuing a specific interest that the other party just has to passively accept or reject it actually somewhat horrifies me.

Why can't there be equity right from the get go? Why does either side have to "chase?" I can imagine it being "fun"--more accurately "a lot easier"--for she / he who is being pursued, but that doesn't make it a good thing. In fact, think it through and it seems to give a lot of leverage to the pursuer if / when the pursuee finally lets her / himself "get caught." I want equity, not dominance.

Chase is bad. I'm with Silverity in theory, though I haven't had the luck of experiencing such a situation in my life yet.

[themuzicman]

The chase, the courtship is actually very necessary, and, in fact, we've kinda lost an important aspect of this process.

What dating and courtship does is reveal the moral character of the potential mate. And it doesn't just do this for those dating, but for the friends and family of each, as well. Often the friends and family can see flaws and issues either with the other individual or in the relationship that those dating cannot see because they are too close to see it.

The chase itself, at least for women, should be an indicator of whether a guy is pursuing you, or just pursuing what you can put out for him. In today's dating scene, I don't know how women think they can tell the difference. For guys, it's a check on their motivations. Are they willing to put a bit of effort into winning a girl? If not, why not?

So, the process, if properly done, has some value.

[Rohsiph]

How does following standard social protocol truly cue in to one's inner "moral character?" It seems more to suggest how well or not one can follow the patterns set up in his / her culture. This has nothing to do (inherently) with morality.

Sure enough, it'll show surface-level indicators about morality. The old-fashioned man will hold open doors, push in chairs, gift flowers, otherwise dote as per 20th-century romantic films and movies.

But what does that really say about the man's morality? In some parts of the US, the classical way for the man would be to beat the wife if she didn't agree. Such a man, as far as I know, didn't try anything of the sort until after marriage was final. And then it was expected. How would you see that kind of thing through the standard ritual?

[Blse]

	Originally Posted by rain To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Yes, I agree. Esp playfully teasing each other, pushing each other's buttons, and inspiring each other through depths beyond mere perception. Witty dialogue a must.

Witty dialog and teasing is fun, but that's not my understanding of courtship ritual or chase. My dad and step-mom have been married for years and do this. Neither one is chasing the other, they're just having a good time.

Originally Posted by themuzicman To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

The chase, the courtship is actually very necessary, and, in fact, we've kinda lost an important aspect of this process. What dating and courtship does is reveal the moral character of the potential mate. And it doesn't just do this for those dating, but for the friends and family of each, as well. Often the friends and family can see flaws and issues either with the other individual or in the relationship that those dating cannot see because they are too close to see it. The chase itself, at least for women, should be an indicator of whether a guy is pursuing you, or just pursuing what you can put out for him. In today's dating scene, I don't know how women think they can tell the difference. For guys, it's a check on their motivations. Are they willing to put a bit of effort into winning a girl? If not, why not? So, the process, if properly done, has some value.

Again, what exactly do you mean by chasing? Yes, of course, there's value in women not "putting out" until a few dates have gone well. As you've said having several conversations first and going on a couple of dates allows the woman and man to size up each others' character. But how does this getting to know you phase translate into being a chase? Maybe I'm being dense, but what exactly do we mean by chase. When I strike up a conversation with a girl, invite her for coffee, and then lunch, am I chasing her?

---------- Post added 02-09-2010 at 05:51 PM ----------

	Originally Posted by LogicLady To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I don't like games, but I like many of the other things people do in courtship/dating and I think a partner should go out of his/her way to show his/her affection and prove that he/she is a persistent, highly-interested partner. But I don't think that stuff ends once two people get together. I still value special signs of affection from my INTJ husband after years of marriage.

That, I agree with.

[fiver]

	Originally Posted by Rohsiph To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	How does following standard social protocol truly cue in to one's inner "moral character?"

a) It tells you quite a bit about someone if they aren't able or willing to follow social protocol. While some people may find being off-beat attractive, many, if not most, prefer someone that they can trust to follow social protocol in other situations.
b) Exerting some effort in a relationship is necessary whether you have just established a relationship/courtship or whether you have been married for many years. Good relationships take work, and effort expended to please the other person is always something you have to do. Therefore, you might say that a person being willing to show effort during courtship is a good measure of what kind of long-term relationship you might have with that person.

Seriously, guys, if a girl only paid attention to you when she wanted your attention and no other time, wouldn't you think she wasn't that interested? Someone has to be willing to make the moves here - and hopefully both people are taking turns.

[Rohsiph]

Fiver -

I'm not seeing how (a) relates to moral character. I agree with it: normal folk want to fit into wider society, want their partners to be able to fit into wider society. But it says nothing of morality.

I also agree with (b), and again fail to see how it relates to morality.

What I'd say the real ideal here is that both people are working together--not taking turns. Though taking turns is much better than anything one-sided.

[ElstonGunn]

Originally Posted by CWC To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To what degree of extend do INTJs think there is no need to chase the object of affection when mutual sentiments exist in both parties wanting real relationship? Adding on to clarity, we shall make the presumption that both parties have known each other sufficiently well-compatible personalities, values, conduct and et cetera In this case, does going through the customary courtship ritual make any practical sense, or is it a momentary social placement for purpose of ego inflation?

I'm somewhere on the order of thinking that the chase, inasmuch as it would ever apply to me (because I'm not going to prescribe anything for anyone else), is about one hundred percent unnecessary, and ten times as much of a turnoff. Nothing would make me lose interest in a potential date/girlfriend/etc than an expectation on her part that I'm supposed to chase her, especially if she were interested in me. That goes with only a modicum of hyperbole.

[JanusthePhoenix]

This thread is a bit comical to me in its 'nerdiness', for lack of a better word. It's not many people that would nuke this subject out in such great depth. Besides me, of course. Being on this board is giving me a good deal of insight into how other people have been viewing me all these years.

My opinion: relationships are inherently emotional, so you're going to have a hard time trying to force the process into a framework of logic or rationality. It doesn't work that way. I've found it much more useful to take a more 'vocational' approach to the topic than an academic one. Learn how it works, rather than why. That is to say, courting is part of the process, like it or not, so if you wanna play you have to learn the game. Once you are more familiar with the game, it becomes fun. (Another mission to accomplish, right?)

I recommend reading "The Art of Seduction" by Robert Greene. The book is well laid out for INTJs, I think.

[alphawolf]

	Originally Posted by plotthickens To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	The Chase is fun. So is courtship. These rituals are fun and important even after a relationship has been established or it goes stale. Is this thread essentially "Dating is stupid"/ "I don't like to feel unsure"/ "Valentine's day is coming up and I'm single and want to Sour Grape it"?

Yeah, you're right!

Falling in love is like a drug, and it causes a lot of anxiety for both parties in the initial stages when they are waiting and wondering if / when they will get the next fix. Ironically enough, it's this anxiety and insecurity that creates strong levels of passion and tension, which leads to deeper bonding and caring when it's released now and then.

Avoiding dating because you don't like to feel unsure is cowardly in my opinion.

[Blse]

Originally Posted by alphawolf To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Yeah, you're right! Falling in love is like a drug, and it causes a lot of anxiety for both parties in the initial stages when they are waiting and wondering if / when they will get the next fix. Ironically enough, it's this anxiety and insecurity that creates strong levels of passion and tension, which leads to deeper bonding and caring when it's released now and then. Avoiding dating because you don't like to feel unsure is cowardly in my opinion.

While I agree that one has to adapt to the majority to be happy in this particular case, I would argue that whether uncertainty in dating is fun depends on temperament. As an ENTJ, I hate uncertainty because I view most things in my life, relationships included, as investments. I don't want to invest in something with too high a degree of uncertainty, and always want the uncertainty to be as low as possible and predictions of the future to be as accurate as possible, so I can make sure I'm making the right investment. Before I invest in you, I want to know that you'll stick around.

So by all means, offer me your insights and perspectives on the dating process, just don't tell me it's fun
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[alphawolf]

	Originally Posted by Blse To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I don't want to invest in something with too high a degree of uncertainty, and always want the uncertainty to be as low as possible and predictions of the future to be as accurate as possible, so I can make sure I'm making the right investment. Before I invest in you, I want to know that you'll stick around.

That's why it's so important to gradually increase your emotional and time investment in small steps, give and take, and not trying to increase the investment before reciprocity occurs.

Yeah, I don't like fickle women, either, but they are everywhere and in the meantime I really need female company ;-) I am never emotionally dishonest with them because that would be against my morals.

[rain]

The best way to court a woman is to play ridiculous games to the point in which she actually thinks you're not interested in her at all.

Then hang up on her multiple times via phone and never have adult conversations.

Instead, treat her like a piece of meat, and start arguments whilst drunk.

Women love that
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[alphawolf]

Originally Posted by rain To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

The best way to court a woman is to play ridiculous games to the point in which she actually thinks you're not interested in her at all. Then hang up on her multiple times via phone and never have adult conversations. Instead, treat her like a piece of meat, and start arguments whilst drunk. Women love that To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

You might think it's sarcastically funny to joke about men who behave like that, but I have dated women who dumped me for *not* behaving exactly like that and went straight to men who do. I'm not talking about young women, either.

[JohnDoe]

	Originally Posted by alphawolf To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	You might think it's sarcastically funny to joke about men who behave like that, but I have dated women who dumped me for *not* behaving exactly like that and went straight to men who do. I'm not talking about young women, either.

I think every guy has stories about this and I think that there are a lot of women who don't get that it actually happens.