[sunlover]

The link provided has some interesting data. It's based on a survey of 3000. I'm suprised at the breakdown of some of the types including INTJ. Would not have assumed such a low affliation under democrats.
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[themuzicman]

Funny how your 'F's tend to be democrats

[jm123]

Socialist programs tend to appeal to the emotional side. Capitalist programs tend to appeal to the thinking side. Neither Republicans nor Democrats are perfect. So, it is no surprise that the one thing that is constant, is the large number of independents.

[SShack]

What drives me nuts about that report is that it addresses the idea that two types ENTP and INTP are very strongly self-identified independents but still seems insistent on trying to shoehorn everybody into the liberal-conservative spectrum.

As far as INTJs being more conservative, I notice that a lot of INTJs are very literal about the idea of "conserving" as conservative. As in not necessarily a moral concept, but keeping intact the things that work and only changing the things that don't (perhaps because they'll be the ones called upon to fix it? ;P). My INTJ buddy self-describes as a libertarian in a lot of ways but also has a strong environmental conservation streak, no doubt seeing the value of maintaining an ecological system that has "worked" for millenia.

[Valiyn]

I agree with SShack. If this is going off American politics there is little to no difference between most dem and rep political stances. Most INTJs, just from those I know and based off this forum, I would wager a good amount of money as being liberal (in the classical sense, more specifically libertarian and similar ideologies).

[pip]

	Originally Posted by jm123 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Socialist programs tend to appeal to the emotional side. Capitalist programs tend to appeal to the thinking side.

[wiki]Citation Needed[/wiki]
I would be genuinely interested to hear why though...

That being said, the difference between the two parties is almost nil anyway so I'm really not sure what (if anything) this is trying to prove other than people can have differing opinions from their peers.

[themuzicman]

	Originally Posted by Valiyn To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I agree with SShack. If this is going off American politics there is little to no difference between most dem and rep political stances. Most INTJs, just from those I know and based off this forum, I would wager a good amount of money as being liberal (in the classical sense, more specifically libertarian and similar ideologies).

That's because this forum generally represents the under 25 crowd. It's anecdotal and an invalid study set for all INTJs.

As INTJs are ones to gather information and knowledge, as we grow older, experience teaches us that liberalism doesn't work.

[zibber]

	Originally Posted by jm123 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Socialist programs tend to appeal to the emotional side. Capitalist programs tend to appeal to the thinking side.

Where did it even say "socialist"? (Hint: nowhere. I looked.)

[Doppelbock]

We already had a thread on this topic.


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[jm123]

	Originally Posted by pip To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	[wiki]Citation Needed[/wiki] I would be genuinely interested to hear why though... That being said, the difference between the two parties is almost nil anyway so I'm really not sure what (if anything) this is trying to prove other than people can have differing opinions from their peers.

Just look at the section of the article entitled thinking-feeling. Please note, I did not say it was an iron-clad correlation, just a general trend.

---------- Post added 01-19-2010 at 11:05 AM ----------

	Originally Posted by zibber To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Where did it even say "socialist"? (Hint: nowhere. I looked.)

You do understand that there is a big difference between a "socialist", and a "socialist program" don't you? (Hint: nowhere did I just say Socialist. I looked)

[pip]

	Originally Posted by jm123 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Just look at the section of the article entitled thinking-feeling. Please note, I did not say it was an iron-clad correlation, just a general trend.

Yeah, I read that and found it to be little more than partisan petting, with various quotes from people (with zero context) trying to pidgeonhole certain people as 'good' and others as 'not so good'.
(Read: conservative=good, liberal=not so good)

[jm123]

	Originally Posted by pip To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Yeah, I read that and found it to be little more than partisan petting, with various quotes from people (with zero context) trying to pidgeonhole certain people as 'good' and others as 'not so good'. (Read: conservative=good, liberal=not so good)

I would agree that the quotes were not the best choices. However, in my opinion, Social Equality tends to be more of an emotional cause, and Social Freedom tends to be more of a thinking cause. I hope we can agree on that.

[jhbowden79]

	That's because this forum generally represents the under 25 crowd. It's anecdotal and an invalid study set for all INTJs.

That's an important observation. Even I didn't start questioning the progressive stuff we all have been taught until my mid-twenties.

In the survey above, we also need to consider if geography is a factor. Giving the survey in California will obviously be different than if it is given in Texas. Plus it isn't clear if they gave the survey to the same number of people of each type-- the margin of error may be greater for some types above than others.

[thod]

It does not surprise me that INTP's are independent. You asked them to make a decision, they are not going to like that, they are bound to go for the undecided option.

There are two strategies, the J's like their strategy of planning to reach a goal, the P's like options to remain open to take advantage of emerging opportunities. Politics is no different.

[Thrasymachus]

	Originally Posted by themuzicman To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	That's because this forum generally represents the under 25 crowd. It's anecdotal and an invalid study set for all INTJs. As INTJs are ones to gather information and knowledge, as we grow older, experience teaches us that liberalism doesn't work.

Isn't the conclusion that you're generation and generations before us are more socially conservative just as valid as an outcome of the bias you have noticed?

[saberu]

i vote libertarian

but would love to rule as fascist

hahah

[Lucid]

	Originally Posted by jm123 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I would agree that the quotes were not the best choices. However, in my opinion, Social Equality tends to be more of an emotional cause, and Social Freedom tends to be more of a thinking cause. I hope we can agree on that.

Nope. There are many reasons that a person might favor right wing politics or left wing politics and it has little to do with F or T preference. Many F's favor right wing politics because they feel threatened by the government or by illegal aliens or homosexuals. Their reasons for this might be completely irrational and based solely on an emotional response. Many T's might favor left wing politics because they think that society will work better if there is a more even distribution of wealth, if people have more civil liberties and if the country is involved in fewer unnecessary wars.

What you seem to be missing, is the fact that while to conservatives it appears that liberals are all about warm fuzzies and what makes them feel good - to liberals conservatives seem to be ruled mostly by anger and fear - irrational emotional reactions.

[TigerL]

	Originally Posted by themuzicman To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	That's because this forum generally represents the under 25 crowd. It's anecdotal and an invalid study set for all INTJs. As INTJs are ones to gather information and knowledge, as we grow older, experience teaches us that liberalism doesn't work.

Speaking as an older person, I don't think that's true, at least not among my social group. I find I am more realistic about what needs to be or can be done and how we can get there but I don't think my ideals have changed all that much. In fact, I think idealism is needed more as one gets older. It's easy to become cynical and isolationist; it's harder to be open-minded and progressive.

[firebee]

Originally Posted by Lucid To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Nope. There are many reasons that a person might favor right wing politics or left wing politics and it has little to do with F or T preference. ... What you seem to be missing, is the fact that while to conservatives it appears that liberals are all about warm fuzzies and what makes them feel good - to liberals conservatives seem to be ruled mostly by anger and fear - irrational emotional reactions.

It should also be pointed out that in addition to the correlations between T/F preference and political affiliation being weak, the particular bases individuals with T or F preferences have for their opinion aren't necessarily tied to their type. The idea that INTJs in particular constitute some sort of ultimate robot species that is immune to irrational emotional influence is... one of the sillier notions that I see cropping up among our younger members. And speaking of them...

	Originally Posted by themuzicman To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	As INTJs are ones to gather information and knowledge, as we grow older, experience teaches us that liberalism doesn't work.

	Originally Posted by jhbowden79 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	That's an important observation. Even I didn't start questioning the progressive stuff we all have been taught until my mid-twenties.

The interesting thing that I see in both of these statements is that they're based on the (rather huge) assumption that other people are essentially clones of the speaker -- I was taught "progressive stuff" in my youth, therefore you were taught the same sorts of things; I was a young liberal who became conservative later, therefore you must invariably follow that same pattern (and hence, amusingly, a person with liberal political ideas is "young" regardless of their chronological age), et cetera.

	Originally Posted by jhbowden79 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	In the survey above, we also need to consider if geography is a factor.

In general, we need to consider if geography is a factor. Among other things. Clearly, it's not all that hard to understand that California is different from Texas in that the evillibruls live in California -- with a little thought, one might be able to continue on from there to arrive at the notion that a person who was raised in Texas and the Midwest might not have been brought up as an evillibrul, or that someone who was in elementary school when the Berlin Wall fell might not have had their political opinions shaped much by the Cold War compared to someone a decade or so older. Might we then consider that other people, who are not the same as us, might have different opinions than us for reasons that we don't necessarily have to reduce to mental deficiency on their part?

...Naw, that just ain't logical.

[jm123]

Originally Posted by Lucid To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Nope. There are many reasons that a person might favor right wing politics or left wing politics and it has little to do with F or T preference. Many F's favor right wing politics because they feel threatened by the government or by illegal aliens or homosexuals. Their reasons for this might be completely irrational and based solely on an emotional response. Many T's might favor left wing politics because they think that society will work better if there is a more even distribution of wealth, if people have more civil liberties and if the country is involved in fewer unnecessary wars. What you seem to be missing, is the fact that while to conservatives it appears that liberals are all about warm fuzzies and what makes them feel good - to liberals conservatives seem to be ruled mostly by anger and fear - irrational emotional reactions.

Rational thought is rational thought; emotional thought is emotional thought. I did not say that a person chooses one over the other, based on their personalities. I said that one type of thinking, either emotional or rational, leads to the belief in Social Equality vs Social Freedom. As has been pointed out in this thread, there is not one type that has either thought process perfected/cornered. Also, while this is an INTJ forum, I do not necessarily agree that rational thought is the preferred process for everything in life.

By the way social distribution and civil liberties are the two opposing view points that I have been discussing. I have not been tagging them as Democrat/Left vs Republican/Right intentionally. As both parties do not have exclusive domains over either policy, even if they attempt to identify themselves as such.

[Storm]

It seemed to me the data showed that type is largely unrelated to political affiliations. Only a few types fell far from having more or less equal distribution patterns. Those types were INTJ, INFJ, ENTP, and INTP. Even these were only just over 40% - so it may have been a fluke.

[Dodeca]

Originally Posted by Lucid To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Nope. There are many reasons that a person might favor right wing politics or left wing politics and it has little to do with F or T preference. Many F's favor right wing politics because they feel threatened by the government or by illegal aliens or homosexuals. Their reasons for this might be completely irrational and based solely on an emotional response. Many T's might favor left wing politics because they think that society will work better if there is a more even distribution of wealth, if people have more civil liberties and if the country is involved in fewer unnecessary wars. What you seem to be missing, is the fact that while to conservatives it appears that liberals are all about warm fuzzies and what makes them feel good - to liberals conservatives seem to be ruled mostly by anger and fear - irrational emotional reactions.

My world view has forever been changed by the 8 of 22 years lived under the bush administration.

I agree with this article in all its totality.


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Remember the two-party system, when moderate Democrats and Republicans could sit down together and decide and act for the good of America? Then our government and economy was taken over by special interests like big banks, big oil, big pharmaceutical and health care insurance companies. To feed their greed and their bottom lines, they raised prices, cut or denied benefits to Americans, replaced American jobs with cheaper foreign jobs and, by buying our government, allowed the end of all regulations of their business practices. This was at the expense of the American public, especially Main Street, middle America and the working man and woman. This is especially harsh for women and children, who are always more disadvantaged for jobs and insurance coverage.

After eight years of corruption, lies and war against our Constitution rights and freedoms, many moderate Republicans and independents said enough and helped to elect a new president wanting change to the status quo.

The radical right's answer to this? The new tea-bag party replaces the old Republican Party, preaching hate, fear and trying to hide the past by lying about the Bush/Cheney years. They pray daily for another 9/11 inflicted on Americans simply for political reasons. This is what Bush/Cheney did the first time.

This new party is supported and guided by Fox Noise with leaders like Limbaugh, Beck, Sen. Coburn, Sen. Bachmann, Sen. Bond, Sen. Cornyn, McCain /Palin, Karl Rove and our own embarrassment, Roy Blunt. Their current spokesman is Dick Cheney, known as the biggest coward (five deferments) and worst vice president (even with his love of torture) in America's history.

[Lucid]

Originally Posted by jm123 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Rational thought is rational thought; emotional thought is emotional thought. I did not say that a person chooses one over the other, based on their personalities. I said that one type of thinking, either emotional or rational, leads to the belief in Social Equality vs Social Freedom. As has been pointed out in this thread, there is not one type that has either thought process perfected/cornered. Also, while this is an INTJ forum, I do not necessarily agree that rational thought is the preferred process for everything in life. By the way social distribution and civil liberties are the two opposing view points that I have been discussing. I have not been tagging them as Democrat/Left vs Republican/Right intentionally. As both parties do not have exclusive domains over either policy, even if they attempt to identify themselves as such.

No, you're not understanding.

What I'm saying is that people may arrive at any political philosophy using rational thought and they may arrive at any political philosophy using emotional thought.

[Dodeca]

	Originally Posted by Lucid To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	No, you're not understanding. What I'm saying is that people may arrive at any political philosophy using rational thought and they may arrive at any political philosophy using emotional thought.

Basically Lucid is saying.

Conservatism can be arrived at emotionally or rationally.
Liberalism can be arrived at emotionally or rationally.

Id say the same and also:
Sometimes its hard to know what you are. Calling yourself conservative or liberal my not reflect what you truly believe. Its all about what you want to portray to the world. I would call myself a conservative liberal but what the hell is that.
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[jm123]

	Originally Posted by Lucid To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	No, you're not understanding. What I'm saying is that people may arrive at any political philosophy using rational thought and they may arrive at any political philosophy using emotional thought.

	Originally Posted by Wiki
	Social equality is a social state of affairs in which all people within a specific society or isolated group have the same status in a certain respect.

	Originally Posted by Wiki
	Political freedom is the absence of interference with the sovereignty of an individual by the use of coercion or aggression.

No, I am understanding you point. I don't believe you understood mind. You are talking about philosophies while I am talking about basic principles. There is a big difference between Social Equality and an entire political philosophy. As, there is a big difference between Social Freedom and an entire political philosophy. The one key thing, is that these two principles are polar opposites; with Social Equality originating from emotions, and Social Freedom originating from logic.

I will add, that in my opinion there is no perfect political philosophy(unless of course I am the ruler
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). All social philosophies are a balance of many polar opposites. So yes, I agree that any political philosophy can be found through emotion or rational thought.