[Stereopsis]

I decided to make a list of things that make up irrational thinking.This list could help us to specificly understand irrationality so that we can better help ourselves and others to become
more rational.I've already started the list but it still needs to be worked out, so I invite anyone to help improve and add to it. I'll show you guys what I have so far.

1) Black/White thinking
2) Mis-percieving
3) Contridiction
4) Narrow-Mindedness
5) Circular Logic
6) Superstition

Most of those things should be obvious,however, I would like to clarify number 2 and 4. Number 2 is one I made up myself. Originally it was two separate qualities, but then I
decided to put them together as one. Now that I think of it though, I wonder if it should be separated or be left as it is. Anyways, one part of "Mis-percieving" is when someone percieves there to be a problem when in reality there is no problem. The other part is when someone percieves there to be a problem when there is, but misunderstands what caused the problem. Number 4 is basically thinking about only the present and not taking the big picture into consideration. Just wanted to make sure you guys knew what I meant by "Narrow-Mindedness" (we could always change the name if it wasn't clear). So what do you guys think?

[Warrior]

Black and white thinking isn't irrational if the subject really is black and white. Misperceiving could be a simple mistake. Narrow-mindedness, as you have defined it, it also not necessarily irrational if the immediate issue outweighs all future concerns. (there might be something wrong with my last statement, though. I haven't thought through that too much.)

[Silverity]

I think you might be interested in cognitive distortions:

(from my anxiety files)

1. All or nothing thinking (usage of words/thoughts containing 'always', 'every' or 'never)
2. Overgeneralization
3. Mental filter (focusing on a single aspect instead of entire picture, e.g: a negative comment)
4. Disqualifying the positive
5. Jumping to conclusions (mind reading or fortune telling)
6. Magnification or minimization
7. Emotional reasoning
8. Making 'should' statements
9. Labelling/Mislabelling
10. Personalization / Attribution

EDIT: I could probably elaborate on some of these, they contain specific examples that show HOW they might be used irrationally. Would the OP like that?

[Synamon]

Great timing, here's a
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I bookmarked yesterday so I could make a thread on irrational thoughts (I was looking for stuff about obsessive thoughts). Here is a summarized list:

1. Catastrophizing. Seeing only the worst possible outcome in everything.
2. Minimization. Another side of catastrophizing, this involves minimizing your own good qualities, or refusing to see the good (or bad) qualities of other people or situations.
3. Grandiosity. Having an exaggerated sense of self-importance or ability.
4. Personalization. A particularly unfortunate type of grandiosity that presumes you are the center of the universe, causing events for good or ill that truly have little or nothing to do with you.
5. Magical thinking. Magical thinkers come to believe that by doing some sort of ritual they can avoid harm to themselves or others.
6. Leaps in logic. Making seemingly logic-based statements, even though the process that led to the idea was missing obvious steps. Jumping to conclusions, often negative ones.
7. “All or nothing” thinking. Being unable to see shades of gray in everyday life can lead to major misperceptions and even despair.
8. Paranoia. In its extreme forms, paranoia slides into the realm of delusion.
9. Delusional thinking. Seriously delusional thinking has even less basis in reality, and can include holding persistently strange beliefs.

There is a lot discussed on this forum about how F is an irrational function and the flaws of making decisions emotionally, but rarely does anyone acknowledge that T is also irrational and logic traps are just as dangerous as the emotional ones.

[phej]

	Originally Posted by Warrior To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Black and white thinking isn't irrational if the subject really is black and white. Misperceiving could be a simple mistake. Narrow-mindedness, as you have defined it, it also not necessarily irrational if the immediate issue outweighs all future concerns. (there might be something wrong with my last statement, though. I haven't thought through that too much.)

Do you have an example of something that is black and white?

[Warrior]

	Originally Posted by phej To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Do you have an example of something that is black and white?

Less philosophically, many statements can be constructed that either are or are not true. It would be silly to think there is some kind of in between for these kinds of statements.

[phej]

	Originally Posted by Warrior
	Less philosophically, many statements can be constructed that either are or are not true. It would be silly to think there is some kind of in between for these kinds of statements.

Of course many statements are outright true or false. I believe
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or
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may be helpful in understanding "black and white" thinking

[jndiii]

Originally Posted by Stereopsis To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I decided to make a list of things that make up irrational thinking.This list could help us to specificly understand irrationality so that we can better help ourselves and others to become more rational.I've already started the list but it still needs to be worked out, so I invite anyone to help improve and add to it. I'll show you guys what I have so far. 1) Black/White thinking 2) Mis-percieving 3) Contridiction 4) Narrow-Mindedness 5) Circular Logic 6) Superstition Most of those things should be obvious,however, I would like to clarify number 2 and 4. Number 2 is one I made up myself. Originally it was two separate qualities, but then I decided to put them together as one. Now that I think of it though, I wonder if it should be separated or be left as it is. Anyways, one part of "Mis-percieving" is when someone percieves there to be a problem when in reality there is no problem. The other part is when someone percieves there to be a problem when there is, but misunderstands what caused the problem. Number 4 is basically thinking about only the present and not taking the big picture into consideration. Just wanted to make sure you guys knew what I meant by "Narrow-Mindedness" (we could always change the name if it wasn't clear). So what do you guys think?

Originally Posted by Silverity To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I think you might be interested in cognitive distortions: (from my anxiety files) 1. All or nothing thinking (usage of words/thoughts containing 'always', 'every' or 'never) 2. Overgeneralization 3. Mental filter (focusing on a single aspect instead of entire picture, e.g: a negative comment) 4. Disqualifying the positive 5. Jumping to conclusions (mind reading or fortune telling) 6. Magnification or minimization 7. Emotional reasoning 8. Making 'should' statements 9. Labelling/Mislabelling 10. Personalization / Attribution EDIT: I could probably elaborate on some of these, they contain specific examples that show HOW they might be used irrationally. Would the OP like that?

Originally Posted by Synamon To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Great timing, here's a To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. I bookmarked yesterday so I could make a thread on irrational thoughts (I was looking for stuff about obsessive thoughts). Here is a summarized list: Catastrophizing. Seeing only the worst possible outcome in everything. Minimization. Another side of catastrophizing, this involves minimizing your own good qualities, or refusing to see the good (or bad) qualities of other people or situations. Grandiosity. Having an exaggerated sense of self-importance or ability. Personalization. A particularly unfortunate type of grandiosity that presumes you are the center of the universe, causing events for good or ill that truly have little or nothing to do with you. Magical thinking. Magical thinkers come to believe that by doing some sort of ritual they can avoid harm to themselves or others. Leaps in logic. Making seemingly logic-based statements, even though the process that led to the idea was missing obvious steps. Jumping to conclusions, often negative ones. “All or nothing” thinking. Being unable to see shades of gray in everyday life can lead to major misperceptions and even despair. Paranoia. In its extreme forms, paranoia slides into the realm of delusion. Delusional thinking. Seriously delusional thinking has even less basis in reality, and can include holding persistently strange beliefs. There is a lot discussed on this forum about how F is an irrational function and the flaws of making decisions emotionally, but rarely does anyone acknowledge that T is also irrational and logic traps are just as dangerous as the emotional ones.

So are these lists (not the items within the lists, but the lists themselves) products of rational thinking or products irrational thinking?

More to the point, is there any such thing as "rational thinking" if all thinking is subject to cognitive pitfalls?

( Show Spoiler )

Be thankful I'm not taking this to the extent of Godel's Theorem!

[Stereopsis]

	Originally Posted by Warrior To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Black and white thinking isn't irrational if the subject really is black and white. Misperceiving could be a simple mistake. Narrow-mindedness, as you have defined it, it also not necessarily irrational if the immediate issue outweighs all future concerns. (there might be something wrong with my last statement, though. I haven't thought through that too much.)

True, some Black and White thinking doesn't hurt but as far as I'm concerned, most of life's situations have shades of gray.

Yes,misperceiving could be a simple mistake,but then you could say the same thing for most of irrational thinking.

Thinking that over, I would now agree with you. Looking at the bigger picture does not always mean a better understanding of a situation. We could instead say that Narrow-mindedness is when someone thinks specifically or intuitively too often.

---------- Post added 01-10-2010 at 04:14 PM ----------

Yes please.I would like that Silverity.

---------- Post added 01-10-2010 at 04:30 PM ----------

	Originally Posted by jndiii To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	So are these lists (not the items within the lists, but the lists themselves) products of rational thinking or products irrational thinking? More to the point, is there any such thing as "rational thinking" if all thinking is subject to cognitive pitfalls?

The lists are suppose to be about products of irrational thinking. I don't think rational thinking is considered rational because it is fool proof, but rather because it usually works.

[void]

In my typical lust for simplicity, I'll try to narrow it down to one pitfall:

1) Emotionally attaching oneself to ideas. Identifying oneself with a worldview.

People who do so interpret challenges to their existing notions as attacks on their own character.

Also, the OP's list is really vague. What's "contradiction"? Do you mean "cognitive dissonance"? How about "mis-perceiving"?

[shadrag]

	Originally Posted by void To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	In my typical lust for simplicity, I'll try to narrow it down to one pitfall: 1) Emotionally attaching oneself to ideas. Identifying oneself with a worldview. People who do so interpret challenges to their existing notions as attacks on their own character.

Absolutely, I ran into someone like this and I could recognize it. It's something that I myself was guilty of at one point in time.

I would summarize irrationality as simply a restricted view of the quality of information. The extreme case being, only oneself is smart enough to figure something out. But a milder, and a much more common case, is simply only the experts in a particular field could possibly know anything about it.

[Silverity]

Jndiii-- what I posted is an excerpt from a psychiatric manual. I would suggest that the list is a rational collection of common irrational thought processes or behaviours.

“All or nothing thinking
Thinking of things in absolute terms like 'always', 'every' or 'never’/ You see things as either black or white. If your performance falls short of perfect, you see yourself as a total failure. In reality, few aspects of human behaviour are so absolute.
Example: I must always say the correct thing. I should never make mistakes.

Overgeneralization
Taking isolated cases and using them to make wide generalizations. Interpreting a single incident as being indicative of a never-ending pattern.
Example: I’m uncomfortable in every social setting. (Really? EVERY setting?)

Mental filter
Focusing exclusively on certain aspects of something (usually negative or upsetting) while ignoring the rest, like a tiny imperfection in a piece of clothing. Focusing on one negative detail while excluding all the positive aspects. A ‘glass is half empty’ mentality’.

Disqualifying the positive
Continuously rejecting or ‘shooting down’ positive aspects of a situation, so that you can hold on to the negative interpretation, even if the face of little evidence.
Example: ‘That person just gave me a compliment—they’re just being nice / they’re just trying to make me feel better’

Jumping to conclusions
Making a negative interpretation of an event, even when there is no evidence to support it. Two specific subtypes are also identified:
1. Mind reading: Assuming you know the intentions of others. ’She didn’t call me back—she obviously isn’t interested in me’
2. Fortune Telling: Predicting how things will turn out before they happen. ’What’s the point in asking her out anyway? She’s just gonna say no.’

Magnification or minimization
Inappropriately understating/shrinking or, conversely, exaggerating the way people or situations truly are. Often the positive characteristics of other people are exaggerated and the negative characteristics are understated, whereas the negative characteristics of ourselves are exaggerated, while the positive ones are understated. There is one subtype of magnification:
1. Catastrophizing: Focusing on the worst possible outcome, however unlikely, or thinking that a situation is unbearable or impossible when it is really just uncomfortable.

Emotional reasoning
Assuming that negative feelings are valid, even when there is no other evidence to support such a belief. It involves making decisions and arguments based on how you feel, rather than objective reality.
Example: I feel worthless; therefore, I am worthless.

Making 'should' statements
Concentrating on what you think you ‘should’ or ought to be (or shouldn’t) rather than the actual situation you are faced with, or having rigid rules which you think you always apply no matter what the circumstances are. This usually results in feelings of guilt.
Example: ‘I should be smarter than I am’, ‘I should only speak if I can say something intelligent’.

Labelling/Mislabelling
Explaining behaviours or events, merely by naming them—this is an extreme form of overgeneralization. Rather than describing the specific behaviour, you assign a label to someone or yourself that puts them in absolute and unalterable terms.
Example: ‘I’m such a loser’, ‘I’m so boring/useless/stupid...’

Personalization / Attribution
Assuming you or others directly caused things when that may not have been the case. You blame yourself for some event that was outside of your control.”

These are part of everyday life and some individuals tend to do them more than others. Please keep in mind, as I mentioned before, this specific paper was for individuals with social phobia.

[Stereopsis]

	Originally Posted by void To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Also, the OP's list is really vague. What's "contradiction"? Do you mean "cognitive dissonance"? How about "mis-perceiving"?

Contradiction examples

1)"Oh well, it's just a stupid cup anyway" yet he keeps looking for the cup as if it where a big deal.

2) A lady claims that she is against killing animals for food, but then later orders KFC.

3) You ask someones opinion about your car and he says "It's nice, but I don't like it."


Misperceiving examples

(Perceiving there to be a problem when there is none)

-Don't have your elbows on the table.
}Why?
-Because it's rude.
}Why is it rude?
-It offends people.
}Why should they be offended; what problem does it cause? When I put my elbows on the table does it increase the chances of cups being spilled,make your car break down,or make peoples' heads explode?
-(Thinks about it)...............................

(Misunderstand what caused the problem)

During supper,I grabbed the mustard and shook it which caused some of it to come out and make a mess. Annoyed,I stated that someone forgot to close the cap.Then my dad said it was my fault which was true because
I didn't check to see if it was closed before shaking it.

[Stereopsis]

Since there are actual lists of irrational thoughts does that make my list irrelevant, or is there still some merit to it?