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undecided: ISTJ/INTJ intj vs istj
Old 12-14-2009, 01:12 PM   #1
MegaDoomer
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Hello!
I have always tried to examine my personality as accurate as possible. INTJ was the result I got most of the time in tests and similar things, but not always. Sometimes I have more traits of an ISTJ. As you can see, the S/N quadrant is basically the point. I'm not sure what's the right one. I also took a look at those functions but I can hardly think of real examples for that. Okay, I know it won't change the way I am if I'm an other type at the end, but I would like to hear what other people think on a objective basic.

Here is some information about me (I hope it's not too much):
- often full of ideas
- very inventive and creative, often absorbed in thought
- always on time
- mostly aware of my strengths and weaknesses
- rarely care what others think, but listen to their advices
- like to build things, good at crafting
- tend to prefer special, fancy styles (often retro)
- fan of old video games
- obvious loner tendencies
- need much time and space alone, hate parties
- don't smoke, drink alcohol rarely (and if, only a little)
- comply with the rules most of the time
- never skip school, have guilty conscience if I do it anyway
- question authority if they are proven to be incompetend
- emotionally reserved (keep them for myself)
- calm, often percieved as cold and distant, show affection rarely
- serious most of the time, rarely smiling
- creative job desired (but would also do a relaxed one)
- often follow sudden inspirations
- prefer to do things my own way
- tend to plan things in advance
- perform my duties nearly always
- often don't mind routine work
- hate unreliability
- not very flexible
- atheist, but believe in higher order (beyond human imagination)
- ready to cooperate if others are doing their stuff properly
- can easily remember foreign words, vocabulary of other languages
- good at foreign languages in general except grammar
- often good at business studies
- like ethics and philosophy, take part in discussions
- think before I speak most of the time
- prefer order rather than chaos
- slow at calculations (math, chemistry, physics)
- not good at mental math
- very patient
- often forget special situations
- bad orientation
- always ready to help if I can
- tendency to work hard and persistant (even stupid routine work)
- absoutely hate to learn things in my freetime which I'm not interested in
- like books, but often don't find time to read (that's more of an excuse)
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If you have an idea, I would like to hear it. You can also ask questions if you need even more information. Thanks for your answers.
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Old 12-14-2009, 01:23 PM   #2
jndiii
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These characteristics are predominantly ISTJ. Reliable. Good memory. Hard worker. Not flexible.

INTJ tends to be more flexible, weaker memory, but very good insightful intuition. INTJ's are reliable, but will try and figure out the easiest, most efficient way to do what needs doing. INTJ's despise routine.

There are strong similarities: the main difference is inside the head, where intuition for INTJ, rather than memory for ISTJ, determines how each thinks about the world.
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Old 12-14-2009, 01:28 PM   #3
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  Originally Posted by jndiii
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These characteristics are predominantly ISTJ. Reliable. Good memory. Hard worker. Not flexible.

INTJ tends to be more flexible, weaker memory, but very good insightful intuition. INTJ's are reliable, but will try and figure out the easiest, most efficient way to do what needs doing. INTJ's despise routine.

There are strong similarities: the main difference is inside the head, where intuition for INTJ, rather than memory for ISTJ, determines how each thinks about the world.

Thanks for your opinion. You are right about what you said, but that's not so easy for me.
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My memory is not that precise and I'm often not very aware of my surroundings. (e.g.: I could walk past a good friend without even noticing him). And people did also say I would often have a good intuition - novel ideas out of nowhere and so on...

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Old 12-14-2009, 01:31 PM   #4
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You mention you are still in school. You might just still be settling into your true type. When a type is this narrowed down, I think reading several descriptions could help more than anything else. Though your list is extensive (kudos on that, it's better than listing about 5 things and expecting an answer), it's still just a part of you, filtered.
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Old 12-14-2009, 01:37 PM   #5
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  Originally Posted by Solaris
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You mention you are still in school. You might just still be settling into your true type. When a type is this narrowed down, I think reading several descriptions could help more than anything else. Though your list is extensive (kudos on that, it's better than listing about 5 things and expecting an answer), it's still just a part of you, filtered.

That's true, thanks. (I sort of expected an answer like this
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) I read a lot of descriptions, but I think I am a bit too "biased" about my personal information to give you a objective overview. I thought your type would be fixated even before school...

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Old 12-14-2009, 01:43 PM   #6
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Solaris is correct. Also, intuition and sensing are the most difficult to determine, because it is far easier for YOU to tell which you are, once you fully understand what is meant by intuition vs. sensing.

The details you provide are very ISTJ. That doesn't mean you are or are not ISTJ, just that those are the kinds of things that suggest an ISTJ type. It is possible for S types to have good intuition, and it's possible for N types to have good sensing. It's really more about where you choose to focus.

So, if you think you are more N, then ask yourself how much you use intuition. For instance, do you trust your intuition? Do you make uncannily correct guesses, surprising even yourself? Or do you usually find that your intuition isn't trustworthy, and you rely on a surfeit of data to make sure you are correct? Do you find it easy to learn things, or do you need to study? When you memorize, do you memorize a few general principles of how things work, or do you memorize all of the details being presented?
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Old 12-14-2009, 01:49 PM   #7
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If it turns out that judging is your dominant process (T/F are judging preferences), then it can make determining N/S even more difficult.

Example: I'm an ENTJ. T is my dominant function, and the one I use in the outside (of my mind) world. It's what people see first. Since Te (extraverted thinking) prefers organized efficiency, it can be easy to confuse me with an ESTJ at times. However, I know that, while I have a very good memory, I am much more N than S. It's much easier for me (and likely) to memorize details when I'm invested and interested in the topic/theory/process/etc as a whole.
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Old 12-14-2009, 04:18 PM   #8
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MegaDoomer--

I feel your pain man. Telling the difference between ISTJs and INTJs isn't always obvious. On this particular forum I've had posts deleted because my style is more succinct, conversational, and personal than most INTJs. This happens because the INTJ type is more bureaucratic and hence more similar to the ISTJ type than INTJs like to admit-- all gravity, no levity. Feel free to defend any sort of nonsense, as long as you're verbose! But remember, here on planet Vulcan, always make sure not to violate speech code #1206 or your post will be officially removed. (I'm not sure what the rules are over at the Klingon forums.)

My gut instinct says you're an ISTJ, because you don't mind routine work, and you made a list. Like other intuitives, I absolutely hate routine work. Plus an NT would be more likely to pick something, go with it and see if it stands the test of argument. We'd hafta meet you in person or see a video to know for sure though.

On a side note, one thing for others to keep in mind is how strongly we score on the various letters-- this may help identify your dominant function. I had a similar confusion for a while about the INTJ/ISTJ deal when taking the MBTI inventory. The S/N difference usually settled around 50/50 slightly in favor of intuition, while my thinking preference was always between 75-90%. So I would be distracted by the S/N dichotomy (I like being distracted too much!) without reflecting on the I/E dichotomy. Plus most ENTJ profiles are monstrous and mean-spirited! So if you're scoring as introverted, think about why. In strict Jungian terms, it is less about people and more about if you have a subject or an object-oriented personality.
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Old 12-14-2009, 04:22 PM   #9
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Well, I see. It turned out that my E/I and T/F preferences are clearly visible to me. J is also preferred most of the time. You're right jndiii, S/N can be hard to see.

For instance, I'm bad at chess, which is know as *the* strategic game. I think it's because it's too abstract, since I am much better at other games in which logic and strategy is needed. What confuses me is, that I hardly find a very important trait of myself (imagination and creativity) in the description of an ISTJ. The ISTJ is commonly known as uncreative accountant or something like this. (prejudices for sure) Of course, they also can have those qualities, but this is one reason why I always thought I more of an INTJ. (Maybe my description was also a bit too imbalanced. I guess I read too much about the type stereotypes...) I find it difficult to value my intuition/sensory use in my daily routine. Are there special indicators? Just like: "wow, that was so very sensory!!"
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Old 12-14-2009, 04:23 PM   #10
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  Originally Posted by Solaris
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If it turns out that judging is your dominant process (T/F are judging preferences), then it can make determining N/S even more difficult.

Example: I'm an ENTJ. T is my dominant function, and the one I use in the outside (of my mind) world. It's what people see first. Since Te (extraverted thinking) prefers organized efficiency, it can be easy to confuse me with an ESTJ at times. However, I know that, while I have a very good memory, I am much more N than S. It's much easier for me (and likely) to memorize details when I'm invested and interested in the topic/theory/process/etc as a whole.

So true, especially in my case. I have struggled with that same ISTJ vs. INTJ question myself. While am quite sure that I've got a well-developed Si, my very strong Te made it very hard for me to determine whether I'm more N or S. I current think my N is strong since I prefer to be creative and don't usually consult past experiences or outside influences. I like to know my environment and quite literally sense what's around me, but when I have something to get done with any opportunity for the use of my creativity, I find that I usually just go with my gut and novel ideas, not consulting outside sources or experiences all that much. I think, if you have a strong Te you need to be extra careful with determine whether you're S or N.

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Old 12-14-2009, 04:28 PM   #11
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The best way to determine which type you are is how you use your sensing function.

For instance, do you have an uncanny sense of direction? You only need to see a map once or go to a place once before you know how to get there again. Or are you the type who gets lost easily and makes wrong turns on the road? Most intuitives couldn't get around without a GPS, including myself.

Also, can you figure out how to use a camera or some other technical equipment without looking at the instruction manual? Or are you the type who needs to look at the manual to figure it out?

Most sensors- especially ISTJs, can go into someone's home, and immediately figure out how to work a remote control without looking at a manual, even if they have a complicated, unusual setup. INTJs, by comparison, will push all the wrong buttons until figuring it out.

ISTJs also make good navigators. You can put them in the middle of the forest and they'll figure out how to get out. INTJs will probably walk around in circles.
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Old 12-14-2009, 04:29 PM   #12
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  Originally Posted by jhbowden79
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MegaDoomer--

I feel your pain man. Telling the difference between ISTJs and INTJs isn't always obvious. On this particular forum I've had posts deleted because my style is more succinct, conversational, and personal than most INTJs. This happens because the INTJ type is more bureaucratic and hence more similar to the ISTJ type than INTJs like to admit-- all gravity, no levity. Feel free to defend any sort of nonsense, as long as you're verbose! But remember, here on planet Vulcan, always make sure not to violate speech code #1206 or your post will be officially removed. (I'm not sure what the rules are over at the Klingon forums.)

My gut instinct says you're an ISTJ, because you don't mind routine work, and you made a list. Like other intuitives, I absolutely hate routine work. Plus an NT would be more likely to pick something, go with it and see if it stands the test of argument. We'd hafta meet you in person or see a video to know for sure though.

On a side note, one thing for others to keep in mind is how strongly we score on the various letters-- this may help identify your dominant function. I had a similar confusion for a while about the INTJ/ISTJ deal when taking the MBTI inventory. The S/N difference usually settled around 50/50 slightly in favor of intuition, while my thinking preference was always between 75-90%. So I would be distracted by the S/N dichotomy (I like being distracted too much!) without reflecting on the I/E dichotomy. Plus most ENTJ profiles are monstrous and mean-spirited! So if you're scoring as introverted, think about why. In strict Jungian terms, it is less about people and more about if you have a subject or an object-oriented personality.

Hey, thank you for your answer. Every bit helps.
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(But I think it will be a lifelong quest) haha... Well, the dimension of the routine is important. I'd rather not stand eight hours each day next to a machine and make sheet metal parts.
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---------- Post added 12-14-2009 at 10:41 PM ----------

Questions, yay!
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  Originally Posted by rain
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The best way to determine which type you are is how you use your sensing function.

For instance, do you have an uncanny sense of direction? You only need to see a map once or go to a place once before you know how to get there again. Or are you the type who gets lost easily and makes wrong turns on the road? Most intuitives couldn't get around without a GPS, including myself.

I'm so bad at remembering the right way... I hate to drive through unknown areas. If I can drive the same way without any interruptions like diversion routes every day, I'm totally happy.

  Originally Posted by rain
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Also, can you figure out how to use a camera or some other technical equipment without looking at the instruction manual? Or are you the type who needs to look at the manual to figure it out?

Well I have say, I think I could do without an instruction manual, but I always take a look at it. I often find me reading desriptions of different things (not necessarily technical equipment) over and over again.

  Originally Posted by rain
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Most sensors- especially ISTJs, can go into someone's home, and immediately figure out how to work a remote control without looking at a manual, even if they have a complicated, unusual setup. INTJs, by comparison, will push all the wrong buttons until figuring it out.

Hmm, if you mean something like a TV remote control... don't know. I don't go to other's houses that often. (Introvert...
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  Originally Posted by rain
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ISTJs also make good navigators. You can put them in the middle of the forest and they'll figure out how to get out. INTJs will probably walk around in circles.

Well, maybe. I said I'm bad at remembering ways, but I don't really know how good I am at finding it... what a tricky subject.

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Old 12-14-2009, 04:59 PM   #13
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I am actually torn between both types myself. I believe I am intj, but I have a lot in common with istj as well.
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Old 12-14-2009, 05:05 PM   #14
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  Originally Posted by annaelizabeth
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I am actually torn between both types myself. I believe I am intj, but I have a lot in common with istj as well.

...good to know that I'm not the only one.
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Old 12-14-2009, 08:13 PM   #15
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I dated an ISTJ girl for awhile. We had a lot of similarities, but were definitely different in a few key areas.
1. Information processing. In school, she took a very deliberate approach to studying, and tried to learn everything presented in a lecture in great detail. I took the main points from the lecture, and used outside sources to gain a deeper/"big picture" understanding. I do not care what a lecturer says if it does not fit into my personal system. Also, I was/am way better than her at multiple choice tests, despite having an equivalent understanding of the material. This is because multiple choice tests often depend heavily on inductive reasoning, which favors the N.
2. Order. She was always more organized than me, and she kept a calendar with a daily schedule in it. I just "follow my nose" to get through the day.
3. Judgment. She was more judgmental on most things, and liked to be in control of her routine. I only stand my ground on a few things that are very important to me, but when I do, I will not back down. I guess you might say that internally I was more mentally tough than her, but I am not sure if that has much to do with INTJ/ISTJ
4. I am a big dreamer. My mind drifts all the time when I am not intensely focused on something. She was definitely not like this.
5. Material goods. This might have been the biggest difference. She was obsessed with shopping, clothes, etc. etc. I know she is a girl, but still, I can't see an INTJ female getting so involved in the minutae of shoe brands, however I don't really know any so can't say for sure.
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Old 12-15-2009, 01:20 PM   #16
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@Medicine Man:
Sure, you can see those differences as indicators of the general differences between the types, what you said is surely a good example. But many people of one single mbti Type can sometimes vary much in the matters of their habits... it's often hard to see what their preferences are. Thanks for your answer.
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Old 12-15-2009, 01:47 PM   #17
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  Originally Posted by rain
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The best way to determine which type you are is how you use your sensing function.

For instance, do you have an uncanny sense of direction? You only need to see a map once or go to a place once before you know how to get there again. Or are you the type who gets lost easily and makes wrong turns on the road? Most intuitives couldn't get around without a GPS, including myself.

Also, can you figure out how to use a camera or some other technical equipment without looking at the instruction manual? Or are you the type who needs to look at the manual to figure it out?

Most sensors- especially ISTJs, can go into someone's home, and immediately figure out how to work a remote control without looking at a manual, even if they have a complicated, unusual setup. INTJs, by comparison, will push all the wrong buttons until figuring it out.

ISTJs also make good navigators. You can put them in the middle of the forest and they'll figure out how to get out. INTJs will probably walk around in circles.

I think I disagree with this entirely. I'm not sure that a sense of direction can be linked to type solidly even. And, if anything, I think an N is more likely to know his/her way around because they would have initially gotten lost, and found all kinds of ways to get there perhaps. A sensor is more likely to go one way, and one way only, consistently, step by step. Ditto recipes.

Sensors are about details -- I do not want to rely on a person who cannot see beyond the copse of trees we're in to have any idea about the big picture (forest) so we can get out.

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Old 12-15-2009, 01:49 PM   #18
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  Originally Posted by MegaDoomer
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...good to know that I'm not the only one.
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You're not. I'm an iffy too, because as others have said, my T and J are very strong, so it's hard for me to determine if my S or N is stronger. I've tested most consistently as an INTJ but I've also tested as an ISTJ on several occasions...

I go both ways when it comes to getting around (navigating). I get lost pretty easily in unfamiliar territory and often make a wrong turn somewhere in the journey that puts me off--but sometimes I just wing it and I'm fine. I read the signs, remind myself that most streets run parallel to each other and I'm good. Sometimes I have to I study a map just once or trace the route through Google street view so I get where I'm going without ending up in another county.:embarassed:

I look at directions and I don't look at directions. I often just press buttons until something starts to smoke or emit some disastrous sounding buzz, but I also find myself consulting directions now and again. I get frustrated with directions because they're badly written or don't follow (to my mind) logic, and several times I've dispensed with directions altogether and just winged it.

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Old 12-15-2009, 01:58 PM   #19
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  Originally Posted by Stratego
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Sometimes I have to I study a map just once or trace the route through Google street view so I get where I'm going without ending up in another county.:embarassed:

lol, don't be embarrassed. You're not the only one who is consulting Google for some geographic information.
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Old 12-15-2009, 05:53 PM   #20
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  Originally Posted by Solaris
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You mention you are still in school. You might just still be settling into your true type.

That's a very good point. Even if the type is determined, people develop constantly. SJs aren't born with set of beliefs they'll "guard" later, for one.

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Old 12-16-2009, 12:03 AM   #21
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I think original poster is INTJ (N vs. S) based on the following responses:

- often full of ideas
- very inventive and creative, often absorbed in thought
- rarely care what others think, but listen to their advices
- tend to prefer special, fancy styles (often retro)
- question authority if they are proven to be incompetend
- creative job desired (but would also do a relaxed one)
- often follow sudden inspirations
- prefer to do things my own way

My husband is ISTJ, I work with several, and this type seems to really value reliability and predictability over creativity and inspiration. They would be the type never to get a wild hair and go off in an odd direction...They value and embrace routine, don't just tolerate it like you do. Still, you could be 45% S and 55% N and still be INTJ.

I disagree that being an INTJ means you have a poor memory....If you are a highly intelligent INTJ, you may have an excellent memory for details without spending your time memorizing as a rote learner would do.

An ISTJ is more linear and literal, but they can be highly intelligent as well....just not likely as creative and divergent as the INTJ.
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Old 12-16-2009, 11:03 AM   #22
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@intuitthis
Thanks for your response. I know there are some hints of me being an INTJ. At this state, I start to think that none of both types would be really "wrong" for me. Some of my family members said I would appear more S-like to them after I gave them descriptions to choose from. I really have no idea.
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But that's no problem... I will find the right one over time.

I just know that I have my characteristics for a very long time, probably since ever. I barely changend in all those years (exept for getting wiser and more experienced)
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But that's good because I'm glad about the way I am.
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Old 12-16-2009, 01:13 PM   #23
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I find asking family members to type you to be unreliable at times. They see what they want, and have often seen you so much, that they can't separate your childhood from you. Asking people who know you extremely well as this stage in your life are more likely to give you a good answer. Children experiment with personality too much.

For instance, I was super shy as a child, but a chatterbox once my fear was gone. This would have me labeled as an introvert. Only I can tell you that I actually wanted to be around people, I was just too scared -- not worn out by it. My family wouldn't know that. Friends who know me very well now would be much more likely to not be confused about my E or I.

Also, to people not very familiar with MBTI, Te can look a lot like the SJ mentality. I really like things organized and settled, which means deciding details when need be. I am very vocally critical -- I tend to blurt out what I'm thinking (I've been working on that the last few years). This could be confused for ESTJ behavior if you didn't also know that I only care about those details because they need to be settled in order for the big picture to work, and that I am much more forward thinking, and generally care little for tradition and little social rules/rituals.

My point: Be careful who you ask to type you.
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Old 12-16-2009, 01:15 PM   #24
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Getting wiser and more experienced can change a lot of things MBTI profiles focus on.

Typing based on tertiary and inferior functions can be very unreliable, but for whatever it's worth, I think you've got Se rather than Ne. That would make you NJ. What have been suggested above - "introverted ENTJ", or "INTJ with dominant Te" (depending on what we consider such case to be) is probably worth considering. Maybe you could try to filter people-oriented references from ENTJ profiles and see how the rest fits you.
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Old 12-16-2009, 01:31 PM   #25
LordCorbin
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MBTI: ISTP
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 473
 
I also have scored very close to the split between N/S. I think Te can blur the line between N/S. After reading the Kiersey's description of ISTJ I realized I was nothing like one, despite the closeness of my scores in that particular axis.

I find the major difference to be one common to all Guardian types, namely, something of a reverence for institutions. ISTJ's prefer things to be by the book. Things should be done the way they have always been done. Keep your head down, follow the rules, speak plainly, prefer the old to the new, champion the institution. Kiersey also mentions a certain vulnerability to criticism that can be overshadowed or hidden by the fact that they adhere so closely to regulation.

For what its worth I dont see any concrete ISTJ-ness in your description.
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