[HappyToBeMe]

Honesty is a virtue that not many can handle.
What does honesty mean to you? Can you handle it?

[Scatterbrane]

Yes, I seek it at every opportunity. I am frequently annoyed at people's reluctance to share their criticisms of my claims, lines of reasoning and personality when in face to face conversation. Disagreement seems to be primarily expressed through disinterest.

Honesty is my primary means of causing people offence when I am angry.

[EL Gato]

The truth will set you free

I think the reason why people live dishonest lives is because it requires great courage and trust in life to be honest. People cheat. We cheat. Even animals cheat really well. Nature cheats. There are no guarantees that anyone will reward your honesty. In fact, you could pay a heavy personal price. It's a conundrum.

When someone reciprocates our honesty are we encouraged to be honest. When we our trust is betrayed, it can break us. Truth and deceit are both contagious. You will see philosophies weaved favoring deceit.

[CycleBreaker]

You're asking a bunch of INTJs if they can handle honesty? :D

It's the lack of honesty in society that we struggle with and resent so much.

[Delarge]

Everything I say is a lie.

[astrolite]

I think honesty is the only way to truly move towards improvement.

[Samoan Corleone]

There's also the other aspect of honesty, such as telling a store keeper when they've given you too much change or handing in something valueable you find that's lost instead of keeping it for yourself. That's the honesty I'm better at maintaining. I have a harder time telling someone their meatballs taste bland or that their dress sense is for the blind.

As for "handling" it, I can when I'm ready for it.

[Tactical Panda]

	Originally Posted by HappyToBeMe To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Honesty is a virtue that not many can handle. What does honesty mean to you? Can you handle it?

Sometimes I can't handle it. Sometimes the truth hurts and sometimes I don't think the person I can talk to can handle it. Sometimes I myself am not fully prepared to handle it. But I like to believe that gently teaching someone the truth is just as admirable, if not moreso, then merely blurting it out. Especially if the latter disregards the consequences. Sometimes I'm just not yet prepared to handle the truth, so although I'd prefer not to lie to anyone, they may need to patiently endure a temporary silence.

But then again, I'm not sure if I consider myself an honest person. I know that the correct use of silence and snippets of the truth can decieve people just as effectively, if not moreso, then a lie. And on past occassion I have had intimate knowledge of that fact, which I now regret.

[Blse]

Lying is a necessary social lubricant. You shouldn't lie more than you have to - but you can't always tell the truth. Unless it's necessary, you shouldn't rub people the wrong way.

[FranG]

Originally Posted by EL Gato To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

The truth will set you free I think the reason why people live dishonest lives is because it requires great courage and trust in life to be honest. People cheat. We cheat. Even animals cheat really well. Nature cheats. There are no guarantees that anyone will reward your honesty. In fact, you could pay a heavy personal price. It's a conundrum. When someone reciprocates our honesty are we encouraged to be honest. When we our trust is betrayed, it can break us. Truth and deceit are both contagious. You will see philosophies weaved favoring deceit.

This post pretty much sums it up.

Though the truth will set you free, many people are not free. Freedom has a cost to it, and practicing honesty puts everything you value in this life at risk. It may cost you your material possessions, reputation, career, friends, family, and even freedom to walk the streets. Honesty is an ideal, which is out of place in a world centered around, and based on superficiality. The worldy man is the dishonest man, and I try hard each day to not be such a man.

I feel elated when I tell the truth, and deflated when I tell a fib. It's hard to look upon the face of a liar, and staring in the mirror every morning, for me, serves as a positive advertisement to be truthful for the day.

[eibuos]

It's worth whatever price you have to pay. I'd live no other way.

[Cygnus]

	Originally Posted by HappyToBeMe To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Honesty is a virtue that not many can handle. What does honesty mean to you? Can you handle it?

Your questions weaken your statement. Do you make it a habit to support bold, sweeping statements with subjective, "feeling" questions? I have doubts honesty has attained "virtue" status.

The concept of honesty exists because knowledge, belief, and feeling have power and consequence. People will inevitably experience a time when events unfolded in an undesired manner and will reason that withholding information or giving false information may have a chance to alter an outcome more favorably. One cannot recognize honesty unless he or she has lied.

As for your questions. I use my judgement to determine what degree of honesty best serves. Can I handle it? That is relative and subject to change; as a general rule, the more intimate the relationship I have with someone, the more I appreciate and require honesty.

---------- Post added 12-08-2009 at 12:39 AM ----------

	Originally Posted by eibuos To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	It's worth whatever price you have to pay. I'd live no other way.

Really? Many people facing tragedy turn to faith to get them through, I would not deny them that. I also would not recommend telling a suicidal associate that he or she is waste of life, even if that is how you truly feel. I think care and consideration need to be applied as we divy out our special brand of honesty....

[eibuos]

	Originally Posted by Cygnus To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Really? Many people facing tragedy turn to faith to get them through, I would not deny them that. I also would not recommend telling a suicidal associate that he or she is waste of life, even if that is how you truly feel. I think care and consideration need to be applied as we divy out our special brand of honesty....

Yes, really. So I am assuming the suicidal associate asked me whether or not I thought they were a waste of life? OK, let's assume that and let's assume that I do think they are a waste of life. I think my response would be "I think the fact that you even asked me that question means that you are in a very distressed state right now and I think we need to get you some help before you do something that you regret." If they were adamant about a response I would say "Yes, I think the way you are living your life right now, is a waste. Let's find someone that can help you change that." I have encountered suicidal people before and one happened to be an associate, who I was not especially fond of. She came into my office and told me that she was going to kill herself. I talked her out of it then I took her straight to the mental health clinic. Honest <> Evil

[Cygnus]

That is careful wording to not convey the true intent of how you felt.

I implied that you thought the person was a waste...and you implied the way that person was living was a waste....big difference...

As for any of your assumptions, I merely stated you thought the person was a waste.

[eibuos]

You wrote "waste of life".

OK, I think the person is a waste and they say "Do you think I am a waste?" as they hold the razor blade to their wrist..... I would have to stick to "I think the fact that you even asked me that question means that you are in a very distressed state right now and I think we need to get you some help before you do something that you regret." or something like that, probably a much shorter version so I get the situation under control and get them out of danger. Being honest doesn't mean you have to share every single thought, especially if someone's life is in danger.

It is very rare that I won't answer a question directly, usually only if someone asks something way too personal before I know (and trust) them or something like your scenario.

[Cygnus]

Originally Posted by eibuos To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

You wrote "waste of life". OK, I think the person is a waste and they say "Do you think I am a waste?" as they hold the razor blade to their wrist..... I would have to stick to "I think the fact that you even asked me that question means that you are in a very distressed state right now and I think we need to get you some help before you do something that you regret." or something like that, probably a much shorter version so I get the situation under control and get them out of danger. Being honest doesn't mean you have to share every single thought, especially if someone's life is in danger. It is very rare that I won't answer a question directly, usually only if someone asks something way too personal before I know (and trust) them or something like your scenario.

I never said you were asked
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
I merely threw out a situation where some tact may be in order instead of someone's special brand of The Truth ™. Many people seem to have a complusion to share their version of honesty, welcomed or not. I am pointing out people are different and situations are infinitely more complex that an application of some generalized policy to use 100% of the time, many not work out so well.

Additionally, people seem to want to debate the external value of honesty, I feel self delusion is far more commonplace and more dangerous.

[eibuos]

	Originally Posted by Cygnus To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I never said you were asked To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

LOL I never used to have to be asked, I am much better about that now...
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

[daydreamer]

i'm a perspectivist. so i don't go out of my way to explain my truth when i know it won't be perceived as such. to me being honest simply means, not hiding the truth.

can i handle it? many times no, not before i'm ready to. i'm happy with the truth revealing itself naturally many times, without it having to be told to me.

[philonous89]

When assessing yourself, the truth does set you free. You should always be honest with yourself.

When telling others of your assessment of them, the truth does not always set them free. It may enslave them. Some people can't handle the truth as well as an INTJ can (forgive me for how arrogant this sounds). Telling them the truth won't cause them to reverse whatever lie they're living. It'll only make them feel bad.

In cases where we're telling the truth, but hurting another as a result, it's only morally acceptable when the truth has the potential for their improvement and a net gain of happiness for the recipient of the truth. So, for instance, I cannot ever see how telling a irreparably disfigured person that they're ugly is ever the right thing to do. I'd lie in a heartbeat.

[EL Gato]

Some matters are inconsequential. Thinking someone's dress or their face is ugly is usually a subjective judgment and you do well to keep it to yourself, or learn the social niceties, or simply state how inconsequential you think some things are. I suspect doing otherwise is an act of bad faith, although it is probably an inevitable adolescence rite of passage. Can I handle someone telling me their opinions? I better do if I don't want to live hiding under a rock.

Judging a person to be a waste may be indicative that you are thinking of yourself too highly. The way they live could be worthless, when relatively compared. But do you really think your life really that precious that we must care about you? If you think so, so does everyone else deep down except the pathologically distressed.

[gwilendiel]

Originally Posted by eibuos To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

You wrote "waste of life". OK, I think the person is a waste and they say "Do you think I am a waste?" as they hold the razor blade to their wrist..... I would have to stick to "I think the fact that you even asked me that question means that you are in a very distressed state right now and I think we need to get you some help before you do something that you regret." or something like that, probably a much shorter version so I get the situation under control and get them out of danger. Being honest doesn't mean you have to share every single thought, especially if someone's life is in danger. It is very rare that I won't answer a question directly, usually only if someone asks something way too personal before I know (and trust) them or something like your scenario.

If you HONESTLY thought they were a waste of life, would you not say "Kill yourself"?
If you want them to live, you must feel they have value, therefore to tell yourself they are a waste and then rescind when you are put on the spot means your initial feeling was either dishonest or misguided.

---------- Post added 12-08-2009 at 06:08 AM ----------

This is what I think.

You either honestly want to help,
or honestly want to hurt.

Everything else is either a result of accident, ignorance, or circumstance, or simply a means to one of the two ends previously stated.

This is where I feel the virtue is present, in being true to your intent.

[Cygnus]

Originally Posted by EL Gato To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Some matters are inconsequential. Thinking someone's dress or their face is ugly is usually a subjective judgment and you do well to keep it to yourself, or learn the social niceties, or simply state how inconsequential you think some things are. I suspect doing otherwise is an act of bad faith, although it is probably an inevitable adolescence rite of passage. Can I handle someone telling me their opinions? I better do if I don't want to live hiding under a rock. Judging a person to be a waste may be indicative that you are thinking of yourself too highly. The way they live could be worthless, when relatively compared. But do you really think your life really that precious that we must care about you? If you think so, so does everyone else deep down except the pathologically distressed.

Being judged inconsequential (and universally judging something as such is another debate) has no impact on "honesty". Honesty implies refusal to lie, steal, or deceive in any way. Since many of the things honesty applies to are beliefs and feelings, it is all rather subjective
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
You seem to be taking this topic into unknown places...

---------- Post added 12-08-2009 at 06:28 AM ----------

Originally Posted by gwilendiel To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

If you HONESTLY thought they were a waste of life, would you not say "Kill yourself"? If you want them to live, you must feel they have value, therefore to tell yourself they are a waste and then rescind when you are put on the spot means your initial feeling was either dishonest or misguided. ---------- Post added 12-08-2009 at 06:08 AM ---------- This is what I think. You either honestly want to help, or honestly want to hurt. Everything else is either a result of accident, ignorance, or circumstance, or simply a means to one of the two ends previously stated. This is where I feel the virtue is present, in being true to your intent.

Very interesting, I am very glad you pointed this out. Intent, yes....very critical in this.

[EL Gato]

Originally Posted by Cygnus To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Being judged inconsequential (and universally judging something as such is another debate) has no impact on "honesty". Honesty implies refusal to lie, steal, or deceive in any way. Since many of the things honesty applies to are beliefs and feelings, it is all rather subjective To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. You seem to be taking this topic into unknown places...

This unknown place is also known as life. I use my judgment to refuse to waste time in the inconsequential. If I am going to apply honesty into telling people that I think that their children are ugly, I have become a fundamentalist, all in the name of honesty.

[Scatterbrane]

	Originally Posted by Cygnus
	As for your questions. I use my judgement to determine what degree of honesty best serves. Can I handle it? That is relative and subject to change; as a general rule, the more intimate the relationship I have with someone, the more I appreciate and require honesty.

This.

	Originally Posted by eibuos
	Being honest doesn't mean you have to share every single thought, especially if someone's life is in danger.

This behaviour is partial honesty. There is no way around it. Clearly you hold being honest as an important general goal, while using subtly dishonest deflections and distractions in cases where full honesty would not bring about socially or personally desirable outcomes to the best of your judgement.

I would applaud you for such behaviour, but not the reasoning you apply to this sort of situation. It is not internally consistent.

	Originally Posted by gwilendiel
	This is what I think. You either honestly want to help, or honestly want to hurt. Everything else is either a result of accident, ignorance, or circumstance, or simply a means to one of the two ends previously stated. This is where I feel the virtue is present, in being true to your intent.

This is essentially, while not superficially, the importance at the heart of the matter.

[FranG]

Originally Posted by Scatterbrane To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Originally Posted by eibuos To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Being honest doesn't mean you have to share every single thought, especially if someone's life is in danger. This behaviour is partial honesty. There is no way around it. Clearly you hold being honest as an important general goal, while using subtly dishonest deflections and distractions in cases where full honesty would not bring about socially or personally desirable outcomes to the best of your judgement. I would applaud you for such behaviour, but not the reasoning you apply to this sort of situation. It is not internally consistent.

I agree with this post. It seems people are inferring that being truthful is simply to not make a direct and incorrect statement of fact. But the definition of lying is much broader than this. Being truthful is a subjective assessment, and entails being honest with oneself.

As far as rhetoric is concerned, not revealing what one is truly feeling to an inquirer is dishonest, unless one truly feels that the inquiry is a private matter. But if he doesn't say this, and instead prevaricates and equivocates to the inquirer, then he is lying.

Likewise, behaviorally, one performing acts (or lack of acts) with the intent of creating an impression in someone which contradicts the performer's impression of the same, then the performer's behavior is dishonest. For example, wearing a fake police uniform to a doughnut shop with knowledge that this will likely cause the shop owner to presume you are a police officer, and thus offer you free doughnuts, would be an example of dishonesty. In this situation, not a single word needs to be spoken for the transaction; i.e., dishonesty to occur.

	Originally Posted by philonous89 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	When assessing yourself, the truth does set you free. You should always be honest with yourself.

And this is why being honest is so difficult.