[AlR]

When does banter go from fun to mean spirited?

I think we've all been there, you are in a group of people. Playful teasing begins. Everyone seems to be laughing (at least I know I was), then something "shifts" and the exchanges aren't as fun anymore. The teasing now has more of an edge?

How do you identify when that "shift" occurs? Or what are the characteristics of good nature bonding banter versus banter when someone gets hurt?

[LionsPride]

The shift occurs in conversations I've been in when a comment hits a person's nerve, usually one that other people may not know about. You never know exactly what goes on in a person's life and things that may have been okay a week ago might be right at the surface of their thought. Sometimes it isn't even what was said, but who said it and when.

[Nemesis]

I love ball-busting. My friends and I are downright ruthless to each other, but as soon as you have to say "Oh c'mon, it was just a joke"... you've gone too far.

[SelfMadeBum]

When it's used as a cloak for real grievances or criticisms, as well.

[larkin]

It's hard. It's a line that can be pretty easily crossed, so I have found that if I think I'll have trouble telling, best to steer very clear of it.

So it starts with the people I'm with...are they the kind of people that take those things seriously, that hold a grudge, that might get upset about something and I wouldn't know it, only to find out about it much later? On a more immediate level, how well can I read them? Can I immediately tell their reaction to something, or do they have a poker face?

So assuming it's someone I know and they're usually fine, I try to be aware of issues they're particularly sensitive about. Everybody has some line of thinking about or joking about them that they will never find funny. Most people intuitively stay away from these things, or have an idea where these things are. (For example - not so long ago I was in a bicycle accident. It was serious, there was a coma, I still don't drive or bike today because of it. For some reason, potentially head trauma-related, I still get kind of emotional about it. You can make fun of me for almost anything, but when a guy friend took a good-natured shot about how I wasn't the world's most skilled when it came to a bicycle, I stopped joking pretty quickly. It could have been funny, I don't blame him, but it's better that he knows.)

Lastly - when that line is crossed - people stop making eye contact, they look away. The tone changes. The next joke someone makes is in retaliation, and way over the line. Or everything just stops - someone says, well, whatever, and walks away.

This was long, but the upshot is - good-natured banter is about things that aren't intended to offend the person. It's not about things that matter to people, it's not a sport to see who can put up with the most without revealing that they care. Banter makes fun of people for lines of thinking they're actually kind of pleased about.

Oh, and not to engage in stereotypes, but pretty much under no circumstances would I make fun of anyone for their weight or a guy for losing their hair.

[Yhor]

It's hard to tell in forums.

In real life I find myself asking friends and acquaintances if I pissed them off fairly regular. I'm terrible at conversation, and when forced into it I have a tendency to piss people off accidentally on purpose, to get a moment of silence. I don't intentionally do it, but it happens frequently enough that I notice a pattern (as I'm sure they notice it too).

Example.
My friend calls me to say he's coming by. He knows to warn me, I hate being surprised. An hour later he shows up with his new ladyfriend. I've never met her, I wasn't 'warned' she was coming, but I tried being friendly. Everything is going fine for 20 or so minutes, then he starts joking with me. I joke back, eventually I call him an idiot (perfectly normal when not in 'new company')... things get quiet, and I know I crossed his line. I still haven't call to apologize after a month gone by, but he knows I'm an ass and knows I hate forced meetings (especially at my house).

The point is, circumstances usually play a role in when normal behaviour can turn into crossing that line. I don't care how strangers perceive my attitude, but under the above circumstances I probably should have 'cared'... and planned the conversation out a little further. I could easily blame him, he knows me well enough to know I'd react a certain way, but it was his friend and I came off as an ass to her in a first impression. Had I been warned of the intent of the visit (meeting new lady friend), I would have been prepared.

Now that I think about it, it is completely his fault that I was an ass.

[Aiss]

When you're just teasing and realize you are talking to an FP person and not a fellow NT.

[stasis]

When I was a kid, the point at which banter amongst friends of mine became mean-spirited is when the intention was to exploit an emotional weakness in the other.

What would usually happen is someone would take offense to a jab or snippet of sarcasm that wasn't intended to be personally demeaning, and this would become clear only when the offended party retaliated with something they thought would be equally offensive. These charged retorts were easy to identify because they were a lot less clever and at least partially non-sequitur, presumably because the person was becoming emotional.

Since the offended person elected to respond to an unintentional slight by attacking (posturing), and their counterattack was of an emotionally compromised quality (weakness), at that point the exchange became a matter of "that was a foolish way to deal with your offense; time to learn your fucking place, subordinate" and the banter could no longer be called friendly. The objective would shift from mutual amusement, from a friendly competition between equals, to eliciting humiliation and establishing social dominance over a lesser opponent.

[Blse]

Usually when one person makes a comment that another person in the group actually finds offensive. The person making the comment is usually unaware that actually offended the other person, but the other person is not put-off and responds with a comment they know to be offensive. In other words, one person crosses into an actually sensitive area without knowing and then gets hit with revenge. From then on it's an eye-for-eye, 5 yr. old playground rules, and the group dynamic turns toxic very quickly.

[MartinH]

	Originally Posted by Aiss To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	When you're just teasing and realize you are talking to an FP person and not a fellow NT.

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Oh, really? Or the NT's are more likely to internalise it rather than show anything that you'd be able to notice...

As a general question - how do you follow up having gone too far?

[Blse]

	Originally Posted by MartinH To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Oh, really? Or the NT's are more likely to internalise it rather than show anything that you'd be able to notice... As a general question - how do you follow up having gone too far?

Depends. It can be either a "I'm just bustin' your chops" with a little hand wave and a smile; or leaning in with "oh goodness, I'm sorry" (with emphasis on the sorry).

[MartinH]

Interesting - my reaction has always been to be harsher to myself, or at least bare the throat for them to be. Possibly this is disingenuous, as I'm not easily hurt, but it's also possibly an attempt to bring things back into balance, so I'm not the solely guilty one any more.

Possibly ENFPs hate being blamed for stuff, especially when guilty...

[daydreamer]

when it is intended or taken personally, a shift has occurred. continuing after that shift risks being mean-spirited or being perceived that way.

[gwilendiel]

I perceive 'banter' as friendly practice for mental combat. That may not be realized, but I feel that is the underlying sociological purpose.

It's like rough play and rivalry in sport or games. Some times it is friendly, some times it isn't. Some people come away wounded, or retaliate, or use it as a weapon.

[stock]

	Originally Posted by MartinH To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Interesting - my reaction has always been to be harsher to myself, or at least bare the throat for them to be. Possibly this is disingenuous, as I'm not easily hurt, but it's also possibly an attempt to bring things back into balance, so I'm not the solely guilty one any more. Possibly ENFPs hate being blamed for stuff, especially when guilty...

So you feel you offended, then offer yourself up for sacrifice to make amends? This sounds correct. I'd say we hate feeling guilty, so punish ourselves before anyone else gets the chance to blame us.

In general I love these very rough, fun bouts of play. I love picking on engineers especially. Yesterday I emailed my engineers this:

"It's not a well known fact, but every time an engineer cries, an angel gets its wings. Help another angel experience the miracle of flight this holiday season by verbally assulting your favorite engineer...."

[t3hrubikscube]

	Originally Posted by Nemesis To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I love ball-busting. My friends and I are downright ruthless to each other, but as soon as you have to say "Oh c'mon, it was just a joke"... you've gone too far.

This exactly.

[stock]

	Originally Posted by gwilendiel To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I perceive 'banter' as friendly practice for mental combat. That may not be realized, but I feel that is the underlying sociological purpose. It's like rough play and rivalry in sport or games. Some times it is friendly, some times it isn't. Some people come away wounded, or retaliate, or use it as a weapon.

oh, yes, this is fun. I love intellectual arguments with NTs-especially ENTPs, but I can be very blunt and aggressive. It really is more like mental wrestling or friendly combat, than a simple logical debate. I liked ju-jitsu for the same reason. Grrrrr......

[Thoth]

I've always been really bad at playful banter, so I tend to refrain. I'll inadvertently "hit the wrong nerve" nine times out of ten.

[MartinH]

	Originally Posted by stock To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	oh, yes, this is fun. I love intellectual arguments with NTs-especially ENTPs, but I can be very blunt and aggressive. It really is more like mental wrestling or friendly combat, than a simple logical debate. I liked ju-jitsu for the same reason. Grrrrr......

Yes! ENTP's are bloody good at it, and can keep up verbally. Agree!

---------- Post added 12-05-2009 at 11:42 PM ----------

	Originally Posted by daydreamer To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	when it is intended or taken personally, a shift has occurred. continuing after that shift risks being mean-spirited or being perceived that way.

Is there a bigger danger for INTJ's being, um, not naturally socially talented, that they'll fail to notice the shift until later than most people? INTJ - does this happen to you much? I'm like once every three to five years, and I'm usually quite rough verbally in banter.

Oh.. another one - when you notice that someone is *trying* to take it over the line and hurt you, how do you respond? (I drop into open questions and tactical silences).

[daydreamer]

the shift itself is usually very obvious to me. it is rare that i miss it, and if i do it could be because of a cultural difference and/or dealing with someone i did not know as well. usually it will come down to being out of my element. with most people, i watch a lot of their interaction before i jump in, if i can, and if it is someone of particular interest, i'll proceed with even more caution (too much, sometimes lol.)

it does appear that many intj's associate being an intj with having less talent with social skills. this always confuses me since they have the N but, apparently it's different for different people.

sometimes after the fact i evaluate my actions to be meaner spirited than intended, and usually i apologize. but then if i see someone being a bully for bully's sake, the gloves are off !! whether it be toward me, or another person there... no mercy and no regret ! lol (well unless they start to cry)

if someone is trying to take it over the line to hurt me i try to figure out why. if it's not the bully thing, then i try to temper my response with an understanding to their concern, and make them feel better. all of this assuming they are interesting enough to be engaged with in the first place (usually i have made that determination beforehand, but with the bullies sometimes i will just jump right in and start throwing punches lol until it's futile lol)

^ your methods seem much more befitting... shall i use the term... of a mastermind.
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[gwilendiel]

	Originally Posted by MartinH To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Oh.. another one - when you notice that someone is *trying* to take it over the line and hurt you, how do you respond? (I drop into open questions and tactical silences).

It depends who it is and how vindictive I feel.
If I'm feeling especially vengeful, I'll go out with a poison pill. Either give them a Pyrrhic victory or completely deject myself in a way that makes them feel worse than I do out of guilt.

But I try not to do those things because I find it very cruel.

[MartinH]

	Originally Posted by daydreamer To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	^ your methods seem much more befitting... shall i use the term... of a mastermind. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I cheated. I was trained in and practice hard conversations for helpline type volunteer work, so those habits are ingrained. But you're right to an extent, if I get that vibe from someone it pushed me way over towards ENTP and I try to work out why, but mainly try to get more data from them.
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---------- Post added 12-06-2009 at 12:32 AM ----------

	Originally Posted by gwilendiel To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	It depends who it is and how vindictive I feel. If I'm feeling especially vengeful, I'll go out with a poison pill. Either give them a Pyrrhic victory or completely deject myself in a way that makes them feel worse than I do out of guilt.

I have to say, that won't always work. Completely dejecting yourself, unless it was very very honest would get a kneejerk response of contempt from me, which I'd then have to work around.

It sounds like you'd bring the exchange to a close pretty quickly though? Is that right? I'm the other way, I'd prolong it, partly because I have a high tolerance for social discomfort and partly to get at their motivations.

	Originally Posted by gwilendiel To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	But I try not to do those things because I find it very cruel.

And indeed manipulative, so I agree.

[MikeC]

It's mean-spirited when you poke someone's ribs, and you actually feel good about yourself for doing so. Just don't do it at other's (emotional) expenses.

There is this colleague of mine who thinks he's funny - making stupid okes and pranks even to the boss. I could shut him up, as he is one of those who can't take a joke himself.

[gwilendiel]

Originally Posted by MartinH To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I cheated. I was trained in and practice hard conversations for helpline type volunteer work, so those habits are ingrained. But you're right to an extent, if I get that vibe from someone it pushed me way over towards ENTP and I try to work out why, but mainly try to get more data from them. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. ---------- Post added 12-06-2009 at 12:32 AM ---------- I have to say, that won't always work. Completely dejecting yourself, unless it was very very honest would get a kneejerk response of contempt from me, which I'd then have to work around. It sounds like you'd bring the exchange to a close pretty quickly though? Is that right? I'm the other way, I'd prolong it, partly because I have a high tolerance for social discomfort and partly to get at their motivations. And indeed manipulative, so I agree.

Well, the first step is to know your enemy. I wouldn't attempt it on you because I don't know you. But I know it works awesomely on my step mother and it worked devastatingly on my mother (who pretty much taught me it, I surpassed my master in that regard)

If I don't know you, I play my cards to my chest, much like you seem to.

[AlR]

Good banter can really bring a group together only when everyone involve sees it as a way to develop a tougher skin from people who you know you depend on and who depend on you. Or people who you know do not benefit from you being emotionally wounded. Probably that is why good banter happens more often in tight sports teams or any team where winning or losing has a major impact on the team members.

---------- Post added 12-05-2009 at 04:48 PM ----------

	Originally Posted by MikeC To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	It's mean-spirited when you poke someone's ribs, and you actually feel good about yourself for doing so. Just don't do it at other's (emotional) expenses. There is this colleague of mine who thinks he's funny - making stupid okes and pranks even to the boss. I could shut him up, as he is one of those who can't take a joke himself.

People who purposely banter to cause pain but can't take a joke themselves are the worst. They become prime targets for evil banter, at from my point of view.