[Firebrand]

The words "self-fulfilling prophecy" occur to me on reading this at first blush.

---------- Post added 12-05-2009 at 07:38 PM ----------

	Originally Posted by plotthickens To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	It is not the victim's fault that they were raped. It is the rapists' fault. It is not the victim's fault. It is the attackers' failing.

Ok, having spent years in martial arts, with many women and having helped train women in self-defense, I can tell you that this statement is 100% false. Your body-language tells the potential attacker everything about whether or not you'd make a good target. Stand tall and confident, and you significantly cut down your chance of attack. Slump, look uncertain, and give off a general sense of lack-of-confidence, and the attacker will know you make a successful target for them. Note, that this applies to men as much as women in cases like muggings. The only thing a predator fears is another predator.

I'm not, for the record saying that the defender is responsible for the attacker being the type of person to attack someone (and I meant this in the abstract) to begin with. I'm saying that every person is responsible for themselves to make a good target or not.

Here's a mailing from my previous Aikido instructor :

( Show Spoiler )

"1. Tip for self defense - Strike! :
The elbow is the strongest point
on your body.
If you are close enough to use it, do!

2.. Learned this from a tourist guide.
If a robber asks for your wallet and/or purse,
DO NOT HAND IT TO HIM.
Toss it away from you....
Chances are that he is more interested
in your wallet and/or purse than you,
and he will go for the wallet/purse.
RUN LIKE MAD IN THE OTHER DIRECTION!

3. If you are ever thrown into the trunk of a car,
kick out the back tail lights and stick your arm out the hole
and start waving like crazy..
The driver won't see you, but everybody else will.
This has saved lives.

4. Women have a tendency to get into their cars
after shopping, eating, working, etc., and just sit
(doing their chequebook, or making a list, etc.
DON'T DO THIS!)
The predator will be watching you, and this
is the perfect opportunity for him to get in
on the passenger side, put a gun to your head,
and tell you where to go.
AS SOON AS YOU GET INTO YOUR CAR ,
LOCK THE DOORS AND LEAVE..

If someone
is in the car
with a gun
to your head
DO NOT DRIVE OFF,
Repeat:
DO NOT DRIVE OFF!
Instead gun the engine
and speed into anything, wrecking the car.
Your Air Bag will save you.
If the person is in the back seat
they will get the worst of it .
As soon as the car crashes
bail out and run.
It is better than having them find your body
in a remote location.

5. A few notes about getting
into your car in a parking lot,
or parking garage:
A.) Be aware:
look around you,
look into your car,
at the passenger side floor ,
and in the back seat
B.) If you are parked next to a big van,
enter your car from the passenger door.
Most serial killers attack their victims
by pulling them into their vans while the women
are attempting to get into their cars.
C.) Look at the car
parked on the driver's side of your vehicle,
and the passenger side... If a male is sitting alone
in the seat nearest your car, you may want to walk back
into the mall, or work, and get a
guard/policeman to walk you back out.
IT IS ALWAYS BETTER TO BE SAFE THAN SORRY. (And better paranoid than dead.)

6. ALWAYS take the elevator
instead of the stairs.
Stairwells are horrible places to be alone
and the perfect crime spot.
This is especially true at NIGHT!)
(A note on this one, if there is one person on the elevator, then wait for the next one. If you are alone on the elevator, and a possible attacker(s) comes on, then get off immediately. The worst thing is to be trapped in a sound-proof, metal box, alone with an attacker, or possibly multiple attackers. Don't worry about 'hurting people's feelings' by getting off the elevator when you feel uneasy.)

7. If the predator has a gun
and you are not under his control,
ALWAYS RUN!
The predator will only hit you (a running target)
4 in 100 times; and even then,
it most likely WILL NOT be a vital organ.
RUN, Preferably in a zig -zag pattern!

8. As women, we are always trying
to be sympathetic:
STOP
It may get you raped, or killed.
Ted Bundy, the serial killer, was a good-looking,
well educated man, who ALWAYS played
on the sympathies of unsuspecting women.
He walked with a cane, or a limp, and often
asked 'for help' into his vehicle or with his vehicle,
which is when he abducted
his next victim.

9. Another Safety Point:
Someone just told me that her friend heard
a crying baby on her porch the night before last,
and she called the police because it was late
and she thought it was weird.. The police told her
'Whatever you do, DO NOT
open the door..'
The lady then said that it sounded like the baby
had crawled near a window, and she was worried
that it would crawl to the street and get run over.
The policeman said, 'We already have a unit on the way,
whatever you do, DO NOT open the door.'
He told her that they think a serial killer
has a baby's cry recorded and uses it to coax
women out of their homes thinking that someone
dropped off a baby. He said they have not verified it,
but have had several calls by women saying that
they hear baby's cries outside their doors
when they're home alone at night.

10. Water scam!
If you wake up in the middle
of the night to hear all your taps outside running or what you think is a
burst pipe, DO NOT GO OUT TO INVESTIGATE! These people turn on all your
outside taps full ball so that you will go out to investigate and
then attack.

Stay alert, keep safe, and look out for your neighbours!
Please pass this on
This e-mail should probably be taken seriously because
the Crying Baby Theory was mentioned on
America 's Most Wanted when they profiled
the serial killer in Louisiana "

It really comes down to common sense. Know the area and potential threat of the area you're going to. Above and beyond that, learn to size people up quickly and trust your gut about people. This shit's not complicated....

[daydreamer]

can't help but notice none of those tips use aikido.

"this shit's not complicated." be aware, be paranoid, but don't freak out if a nice guy smiles at you. contradictory, no? women - it's your responsibility to live in constant awareness (ie., fear) that you could be attacked at any time... but it's unfair for men to have to be aware that you feel that way.

women, be prepared for the fact that you might end up in the trunk of a car someday... and remember, being the cause of a crash is better on balance for society than for society to find your body in a remote location. i'll try to take society in consideration next time i'm threatened. oh and that nice guy who just wants a date.

i think it is odd that many of the same men who will get offended at the notion that they be aware and act in a manner consistent with showing sensitivity to this awareness, will also be the same men preaching taking self-defense, and practicing houdini methods of escape.

[Rudy]

	Originally Posted by daydreamer To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	i think it is odd that many of the same men who will get offended at the notion that they be aware and act in a manner consistent with showing sensitivity to this awareness, will also be the same men preaching taking self-defense, and practicing houdini methods of escape.

What I'm offended by is the idea that it's my responsibility to be thinking about this when I'm just doing my own thing. The sidewalk example again: I'm a pretty oblivious person; if I'm walking on a sidewalk at night, the fact that there is a lone woman walking near me will probably not even register. Nor should it be my responsibility to register it, unless it is my intent to interact with her. Hence my assertion that she should cross the street if I make her uncomfortable, rather than expecting me to a) be aware of her potential discomfort and b) cross the street myself.

It is when I intend to interact with someone that I have an obligation to respect their boundaries and be careful in the way that I approach them. When I have no intention of interaction, their fear does not lay any moral impetus on me.

[reb]

Firebrand, you can't talk 'personal responsibility' to some people. they don't understand that wolves look for weak animals to eat; it escapes their mechanisms; they think the world should be safe, like their fantasies.

i'm male; it's not about penises. some of y'all are female, it's not about vaginas.

if i saw gloria steinem getting raped, i would not intervene. she's liberated, and deserves the same treatment i would afford a man. besides, i think she is against concealed carry....so that's two reasons i would not intervene. the less of her there are around, the better i like it.

is it any wonder i don't want to deal with women who have a bucketful of reasons why this world should be other than it really is? carry a knife, be aware at all times. the cops aren't going to help you. you have to help yourself.

i watch my hairy white ass all the time; if you can't watch your own, then maybe you ought not go anywhere except with a dozen body guards trained in martial arts. i accept that 'shit can happen'; i don't like it, i might whine about it if it does, but it's a harsh world. deal with it, or hide under the couch.

[daydreamer]

Originally Posted by Rudy To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

What I'm offended by is the idea that it's my responsibility to be thinking about this when I'm just doing my own thing. The sidewalk example again: I'm a pretty oblivious person; if I'm walking on a sidewalk at night, the fact that there is a lone woman walking near me will probably not even register. Nor should it be my responsibility to register it, unless it is my intent to interact with her. Hence my assertion that she should cross the street if I make her uncomfortable, rather than expecting me to a) be aware of her potential discomfort and b) cross the street myself. It is when I intend to interact with someone that I have an obligation to respect their boundaries and be careful in the way that I approach them. When I have no intention of interaction, their fear does not lay any moral impetus on me.

yep. i get it. and i don't blame you for feeling that way... a lot of guys feel the same way. but some of the same group of guys will think it is a woman's responsibility, while they are going about their own thing living their life, to be sure to know how to break out a taillight when thrown into the trunk of a car. i mean, somehow, that's just common sense !

i don't ascribe this to you Rudy, i'm not trying to imply that this represents how you feel - i dunno all how you feel about the trunk in particular lol

[rain]

Originally Posted by Firebrand9 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

The words "self-fulfilling prophecy" occur to me on reading this at first blush. ---------- Post added 12-05-2009 at 07:38 PM ---------- Ok, having spent years in martial arts, with many women and having helped train women in self-defense, I can tell you that this statement is 100% false. Your body-language tells the potential attacker everything about whether or not you'd make a good target. Stand tall and confident, and you significantly cut down your chance of attack. Slump, look uncertain, and give off a general sense of lack-of-confidence, and the attacker will know you make a successful target for them. Note, that this applies to men as much as women in cases like muggings. The only thing a predator fears is another predator. I'm not, for the record saying that the defender is responsible for the attacker being the type of person to attack someone (and I meant this in the abstract) to begin with. I'm saying that every person is responsible for themselves to make a good target or not. Here's a mailing from my previous Aikido instructor : ( Show Spoiler ) "1. Tip for self defense - Strike! : The elbow is the strongest point on your body. If you are close enough to use it, do! 2.. Learned this from a tourist guide. If a robber asks for your wallet and/or purse, DO NOT HAND IT TO HIM. Toss it away from you.... Chances are that he is more interested in your wallet and/or purse than you, and he will go for the wallet/purse. RUN LIKE MAD IN THE OTHER DIRECTION! 3. If you are ever thrown into the trunk of a car, kick out the back tail lights and stick your arm out the hole and start waving like crazy.. The driver won't see you, but everybody else will. This has saved lives. 4. Women have a tendency to get into their cars after shopping, eating, working, etc., and just sit (doing their chequebook, or making a list, etc. DON'T DO THIS!) The predator will be watching you, and this is the perfect opportunity for him to get in on the passenger side, put a gun to your head, and tell you where to go. AS SOON AS YOU GET INTO YOUR CAR , LOCK THE DOORS AND LEAVE.. If someone is in the car with a gun to your head DO NOT DRIVE OFF, Repeat: DO NOT DRIVE OFF! Instead gun the engine and speed into anything, wrecking the car. Your Air Bag will save you. If the person is in the back seat they will get the worst of it . As soon as the car crashes bail out and run. It is better than having them find your body in a remote location. 5. A few notes about getting into your car in a parking lot, or parking garage: A.) Be aware: look around you, look into your car, at the passenger side floor , and in the back seat B.) If you are parked next to a big van, enter your car from the passenger door. Most serial killers attack their victims by pulling them into their vans while the women are attempting to get into their cars. C.) Look at the car parked on the driver's side of your vehicle, and the passenger side... If a male is sitting alone in the seat nearest your car, you may want to walk back into the mall, or work, and get a guard/policeman to walk you back out. IT IS ALWAYS BETTER TO BE SAFE THAN SORRY. (And better paranoid than dead.) 6. ALWAYS take the elevator instead of the stairs. Stairwells are horrible places to be alone and the perfect crime spot. This is especially true at NIGHT!) (A note on this one, if there is one person on the elevator, then wait for the next one. If you are alone on the elevator, and a possible attacker(s) comes on, then get off immediately. The worst thing is to be trapped in a sound-proof, metal box, alone with an attacker, or possibly multiple attackers. Don't worry about 'hurting people's feelings' by getting off the elevator when you feel uneasy.) 7. If the predator has a gun and you are not under his control, ALWAYS RUN! The predator will only hit you (a running target) 4 in 100 times; and even then, it most likely WILL NOT be a vital organ. RUN, Preferably in a zig -zag pattern! 8. As women, we are always trying to be sympathetic: STOP It may get you raped, or killed. Ted Bundy, the serial killer, was a good-looking, well educated man, who ALWAYS played on the sympathies of unsuspecting women. He walked with a cane, or a limp, and often asked 'for help' into his vehicle or with his vehicle, which is when he abducted his next victim. 9. Another Safety Point: Someone just told me that her friend heard a crying baby on her porch the night before last, and she called the police because it was late and she thought it was weird.. The police told her 'Whatever you do, DO NOT open the door..' The lady then said that it sounded like the baby had crawled near a window, and she was worried that it would crawl to the street and get run over. The policeman said, 'We already have a unit on the way, whatever you do, DO NOT open the door.' He told her that they think a serial killer has a baby's cry recorded and uses it to coax women out of their homes thinking that someone dropped off a baby. He said they have not verified it, but have had several calls by women saying that they hear baby's cries outside their doors when they're home alone at night. 10. Water scam! If you wake up in the middle of the night to hear all your taps outside running or what you think is a burst pipe, DO NOT GO OUT TO INVESTIGATE! These people turn on all your outside taps full ball so that you will go out to investigate and then attack. Stay alert, keep safe, and look out for your neighbours! Please pass this on This e-mail should probably be taken seriously because the Crying Baby Theory was mentioned on America 's Most Wanted when they profiled the serial killer in Louisiana " It really comes down to common sense. Know the area and potential threat of the area you're going to. Above and beyond that, learn to size people up quickly and trust your gut about people. This shit's not complicated....

These are the most fascinating tips I have ever read.

You're supposed to kick out the taillights and wave your arms out through them if someone ever throws you into the trunk? Oh and if someone has a gun, run and he might hit you, but not a vital organ part? LOL, ok...

Who would've thought!

[Cooper]

Zig zag patterns are too predictable...its like shooting ducks

[Rudy]

Originally Posted by daydreamer To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

yep. i get it. and i don't blame you for feeling that way... a lot of guys feel the same way. but some of the same group of guys will think it is a woman's responsibility, while they are going about their own thing living their life, to be sure to know how to break out a taillight when thrown into the trunk of a car. i mean, somehow, that's just common sense ! i don't ascribe this to you Rudy, i'm not trying to imply that this represents how you feel - i dunno all how you feel about the trunk in particular lol

I certainly don't think it's a woman's responsibility to know these things, but I think it's wise for anyone to know them, because of the sad fact that there are very nasty people in the world.


Take the taillight thing. If someone was kidnapped and ended up dead because they didn't know this trick, my reaction would not be "Oh, they should have known to kick the taillight out, then this wouldn't have happened." it would be "Poor so-and-so
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. if only they'd known to kick the taillight out." followed by calls to hunt down and possibly kill the kidnapper.

This is an important distinction, I think.

[plotthickens]

Zsych, yes, I am female. I also have a second-degree Dan in Kendo, with a few minor apprenticeships in the more contact sports, and am a California Armed Guard. Ability to defend one's self does not mean a guaranteed successful defense.

One out of every six women will be sexually assaulted. One out of every 2.5 women will have an abortion. These are sexually traumatizing experiences. You just wrote off a large portion of the population. I am part of that population. Let's see if I can turn this around: "Seriously, we don't NEED priviledged white males who offhandedly insult entire races, genders, and assaulted women groups. Our lives would be just as good without ever talking to them. Probably better." If you're not a (relatively young) white male, please accept my apology. I've never seen any other gender/race combo so offhandedly spout off something like

	Originally Posted by Zsych To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I admit that lets say I see a dirty looking black guy with his hands behind his back (holding who knows what) knocking at my door(no offense intended to our African American friends here, I'm just making it sound bad),...

Hm. Better: if you have six or more women in your family, one of them was likely assaulted because she didn't come with XY secondary characteristics. Blood, swelling, pain, tears. But, yeah, you don't need those women. Right?

Originally Posted by Firebrand9 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Ok, having spent years in martial arts, with many women and having helped train women in self-defense, I can tell you that this statement is 100% false. Your body-language tells the potential attacker everything about whether or not you'd make a good target. Stand tall and confident, and you significantly cut down your chance of attack. Slump, look uncertain, and give off a general sense of lack-of-confidence, and the attacker will know you make a successful target for them. Note, that this applies to men as much as women in cases like muggings. The only thing a predator fears is another predator.

Won't matter to a group of attackers, nor someone hyped up on drugs. And about "only rapists can stop rape": I have found three people -- two women, one man -- dead of suicide when they could not stop their rape. One of them was... bad. It took five days to clean away. All of them had been chastised for 'not doing enough' and 'maybe you really wanted it, you dirty $!#&." Where people want to learn to defend themselves, they do. When they are attacked, they fight back. When they are overwhelmed by the common crushing depression, "you didn't do enough, it's your fault" is the only logical correlation to a traumatized mind. And then they find the moproom in the back and kill themselves. 'only rapists can stop rape' keeps them from blaming themselves (we saved a few with that mantra, after we learned the lesson) and doesn't keep those who wish to, from learning how to defend themselves.

	Originally Posted by daydreamer To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	i think it is odd that many of the same men who will get offended at the notion that they be aware and act in a manner consistent with showing sensitivity to this awareness, will also be the same men preaching taking self-defense, and practicing houdini methods of escape.

Double standards. Women must be constantly open to all men, never closed, but able to help themselves if attacked because they are alone on this one, baby.

	Originally Posted by Rudy To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	It is when I intend to interact with someone that I have an obligation to respect their boundaries and be careful in the way that I approach them. When I have no intention of interaction, their fear does not lay any moral impetus on me.

Yeah, this is why one acts the same everywhere. In the big city, in a bar, on a crowded street, in a store, every location: no modification is necessary.

Please.

	Originally Posted by rain To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	These are the most fascinating tips I have ever read. You're supposed to kick out the taillights and wave your arms out through them if someone ever throws you into the trunk? Oh and if someone has a gun, run and he might hit you, but not a vital organ part? LOL, ok... Who would've thought!

Well
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, at least. Keep in mind while looking at this chart that most people high on adrenaline and everything else can't aim for $#!T.

[Rudy]

	Originally Posted by plotthickens To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Yeah, this is why one acts the same everywhere. In the big city, in a bar, on a crowded street, in a store, every location: no modification is necessary. Please.

I'm afraid I don't understand your point. Of course one acts differently in different places. However, if I were to go into the worst part of Philadelphia (which I have not yet done,) and I were afraid of each person I saw being a potential mugger, it would not be their moral responsibility to maintain distance from me, but rather my responsibility to maintain distance from them, if that is what I desired.

[firebee]

Second google result for "This e-mail should probably be taken seriously because the Crying Baby Theory was mentioned on America 's Most Wanted when they profiled the serial killer in Louisiana":


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Remember, kids, if a serial killer ever stuffs you in the cargo area of an first-generation Ford Explorer, the liftgate may be disassembled through the following procedure:

1. Open the liftgate door.
2. Remove the upper rear center garnish molding.
3. Support the door in the open position and disconnect the liftgate gas cylinder assist rod assemblies.
4. Carefully move the headliner out of position and remove the hinge-to-header panel attaching nuts.
5. Remove the hinge-to-liftgate attaching bolts and remove the complete assembly.

Of course, this assumes that you were not strangled to death with your own overalls first.

[daydreamer]

if someone has a gun, make sure you do too. there's little point in having a knife, if you don't have the strength to wield it

[Titian]

Originally Posted by MartinH To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

How do you do that? How do you foster the resources that make healing more effective? I've talked to quite a few people who've been raped or abused, and there's a big spectrum of symptoms down the line, some people almost seem to shut it away and carry on, for others their world is shattered - the difference seems to be the people, not the events. I'm interested in any ideas and advice - there are many women I care about (not least wife and daughter) and as you say, the chance is never 0%.

It's different to talk to you than to talk with a victim so it may be difficult for you to understand some of the feelings. I also want to be clear that suppressing feelings or having them magically go away is not an option for healing. I can still clearly remember the feelings I had at that time. Now I'll try to explain to you what did help and why I do not live in fear now.

The first thing that hit me when I was a child was that it must be my fault. This is irrational but when it was me against a guy like that then I had to come to terms with reality. I had to reconcile that I was right to challenge him and right to condemn his action. This doesn't happen to every victim but it did happen to me because of the circumstances. The helpful thing to know in this is to connect with reality that you are a victim. If you got cut and the trauma of it puts you into a shock so that you stop thinking about being cut then you may just go on bleeding. You need to react. You need to assess what has happened realistically, know you've been hurt, and know you're going to need to heal.

I saw this clearly over time and began to set my goal for healing at a full recovery. I had no intention of letting the crime negatively affect my life any more than was absolutely unavoidable. I don't know how common this attitude can be for victims but I do know that being able to recall the feelings of the rape does not make me afraid now. I felt them and I came to terms with them.

Since this is you and maybe you will be able to help then you need to know what has happened. You'd need to have that in your mind. I know it may be an immediate impulse to feel rage or even to feel helpless yourself but you need your priorities straight. You need to focus on the victim. This may have to be done in a very practical way. They need to feel safe again and if you are someone who can help with that then you need to be there. You've got to keep in mind what needs to happen though. The rapist will have taken away a certain mental and emotional state that was hopefully healthy before and you need to stay focused on seeing those wounds heal. If healthy is not coming back then what you're doing is not enough or it isn't right. One thing here is going to be that you should know what you're doing. It seems like there are usually as few people close to a rape victim that have a strong sense of this as there are victims who are prepared. There are people who specifically train for and gain experience with helping in this situation. You don't have to feel helpless and alone either because there are people willing to help.


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has a phone number that you can call for immediate counseling assistance at any time and either the hotline or the website can be used to search for a counseling center close to you. The website also has an
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page that addresses issues ranging from medical concerns to what family members can do to very important things you may need to know for the recovery process. It also, by the way, does have a page on
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that includes information which would have been relevant to my second incident and reiterates some of the more valuable advice in the article discussed by this thread.

Lastly Martin, I know we aren't really close friends but I did extend my friendship to you with sincere meaning. I am very willing to help you or anyone else here on the forum as much as I can if you are in this situation. Even if it is just needing someone to listen.

[Night Runner]

	Originally Posted by firebee To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Of course, this assumes that you were not strangled to death with your own overalls first.

Or tied up or drugged.
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	Originally Posted by daydreamer To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	if someone has a gun, make sure you do too. there's little point in having a knife, if you don't have the strength to wield it

Surely you're not an advocate of NRA's wet dream of ensuring universal courtesy by arming every American?
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Unless you have a gun glued to your palm, it'll take you quite a while to reach for it, grab it (assuming, once again, that you have it in an easily accessible holster or pocket, not a purse), take the safety off, aim it and fire. A knife may not be a perfect weapon, and hardly anybody knows how to really wield it, but it can be very effective and might discourage a certain percentage of attackers.

[firebee]

	Originally Posted by Night Runner To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Or tied up or drugged. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Or having had one's Achilles tendons severed by a razor-blade-wielding rapist who is flat enough to fit underneath a compact car. We must by all means enumerate a list of one-off strategies to deal with the latest oddly specific rapist-tactic that arrives in our inbox. It makes us feel safer.

	Originally Posted by Night Runner To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Unless you have a gun glued to your palm, it'll take you quite a while to reach for it, grab it (assuming, once again, that you have it in an easily accessible holster or pocket, not a purse), take the safety off, aim it and fire.

Indeed. Useless as they are, why is it that people continue to use the silly things? It's a better idea to have a knife open and in your hand at all times, so that you don't have to worry about fishing out your weapon when the time comes to gut someone. Which happens often.

	Originally Posted by Night Runner To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	A knife may not be a perfect weapon, and hardly anybody knows how to really wield it, but it can be very effective and might discourage a certain percentage of attackers.

Personally, I am all about carrying around a weapon that hardly anyone (including myself) knows how to wield. Of course, I assume by "discourage" you mean "exsanguinate", since one of the few things I know about kniveses is that the one that your opponent sees is being held by an idiot.

[Night Runner]

	Originally Posted by firebee To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Or having had one's Achilles tendons severed by a razor-blade-wielding rapist who is flat enough to fit underneath a compact car. We must by all means enumerate a list of one-off strategies to deal with the latest oddly specific rapist-tactic that arrives in our inbox. It makes us feel safer.

Yup - just like those ancient chain emails advising women to wear their hair short and wear clothing that would be difficult to cut off.
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In my opinion, those tips encourage a false sense of security, which can lead to some mighty careless actions. I agree with Rudy that being paranoid 24/7 is not a very good tactic. That said, being vigilant (and smart) in potentially dangerous locations (alleyways, empty parking lots, etc.) should be encouraged.

	Originally Posted by firebee To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Indeed. Useless as they are, why is it that people continue to use the silly things? It's a better idea to have a knife open and in your hand at all times, so that you don't have to worry about fishing out your weapon when the time comes to gut someone. Which happens often.

My point was that a knife is far easier to carry in your pocket. If the situation in question calls for vigilance, all you have to do is keep your hand in the pocket. If/when something happens, the knife is ready to use in less than a second.

	Originally Posted by firebee To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Personally, I am all about carrying around a weapon that hardly anyone (including myself) knows how to wield. Of course, I assume by "discourage" you mean "exsanguinate", since one of the few things I know about kniveses is that the one that your opponent sees is being held by an idiot.

Like you said, it makes us feel safer. Illogical though it may be, in the end it's all about perceptions. Sure, it would be great if you could call a time-out, reach in your purse for your S&W, aim for the kneecaps and yell "okay, go!" but in the absence of that, any sort of weapon in your hand - even a knife - could scare off some of the attackers. Of course, if the attacker in question is a 300lb gorilla in a drug-induced rage, the victim has little - if any - chance...

[Crazyblue]

If you have any weapon you had better be damn well ready to use it if the situation calls for it. That's what I've learned. Don't escalate with a weapon until you're going to use it. Personally I keep a survival knife in my truck and if there's ever a situation where it'd be necessary to use it, I wouldn't hesitate.

This should not be an issue that women have to even worry about, but it's not possible until this behavior is stopped, and going off of trends that doesn't seem likely. I can only influence my grid square, my own behavior and other people around me depending on my location. I avoid people at night as well, it just isn't worth the risk. In fact, I've had a co-worker jumped by 6 guys and he was hospitalized for several broken bones. It comes down to where you live and what it takes for you to be comfortable living there. I'd go pick something up from a store around here at night, but I definitely wouldn't be walking around.

[IrishGuy]

Originally Posted by firebee To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Remember, kids, if a serial killer ever stuffs you in the cargo area of an first-generation Ford Explorer, the liftgate may be disassembled through the following procedure: Open the liftgate door. Remove the upper rear center garnish molding. Support the door in the open position and disconnect the liftgate gas cylinder assist rod assemblies. Carefully move the headliner out of position and remove the hinge-to-header panel attaching nuts. Remove the hinge-to-liftgate attaching bolts and remove the complete assembly. Of course, this assumes that you were not strangled to death with your own overalls first.

Most cars have a cable running from the left side of the drivers side seat to the clasp on the trunk. One need only remove the plastic/fabric covering the clasp (most cars I've seen you can just rip it off) and pull on the cable to release the trunk clasp. Of course if you've been tied up and cannot get free the ease with which most trunks can be opened is quite irrelevant.

[Reon]

Originally Posted by firebee To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Second google result for "This e-mail should probably be taken seriously because the Crying Baby Theory was mentioned on America 's Most Wanted when they profiled the serial killer in Louisiana": To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Remember, kids, if a serial killer ever stuffs you in the cargo area of an first-generation Ford Explorer, the liftgate may be disassembled through the following procedure: Open the liftgate door. Remove the upper rear center garnish molding. Support the door in the open position and disconnect the liftgate gas cylinder assist rod assemblies. Carefully move the headliner out of position and remove the hinge-to-header panel attaching nuts. Remove the hinge-to-liftgate attaching bolts and remove the complete assembly. Of course, this assumes that you were not strangled to death with your own overalls first.

Seems like a lot to remember in a time of sheer terror.

This topic is so disappointing to me, this always happens. As soon as a group of people start talking about rape, two groups begin to emerge. One where women must be constantly vigilante and confident so that she will avoid rape; the fault lies with her, not the rapist. The rapist is only but a predator who will logically deduce which woman is worth the risk This group is typical endorsed by males who want to be able to approach women at any time without them being apprehensive towards them. The two second groups consists of those who realize that rapes happen, and it's never the fault of the woman (which it isn't) but must always have a shield and a fear of what a random male do to her. The proponents of this point of view are typically women. I know this is a generalization of this topic but, in general, nothing REALLY has been said that has not been said before.

Titian: Most people I know that have been raped follow the same line of progression that you have and they seem well off and adjusted to society. The others typically seem more or less sociable but if you go to far they will instantly shut down and often violently repulse anyone and everyone near them. In regards to the latter, how do you help without crossing their comfort zone?

[IrishGuy]

Originally Posted by Reon To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Seems like a lot to remember in a time of sheer terror. This topic is so disappointing to me, this always happens. As soon as a group of people start talking about rape, two groups begin to emerge. One where women must be constantly vigilante and confident so that she will avoid rape; the fault lies with her, not the rapist. The rapist is only but a predator who will logically deduce which woman is worth the risk This group is typical endorsed by males who want to be able to approach women at any time without them being apprehensive towards them. The two second groups consists of those who realize that rapes happen, and it's never the fault of the woman (which it isn't) but must always have a shield and a fear of what a random male do to her. The proponents of this point of view are typically women. I know this is a generalization of this topic but, in general, nothing REALLY has been said that has not been said before.

I think you missed the second camp. Not only do they state that rapes happen and that it is not the fault of the woman, but usually tack on "that rape is the failure of the rapist" or something similar. The problem with this is that it assumes that rapists are just supposed to regulate themselves or that society is supposed to train all young boys/men that rape is wrong; no means no etc. They assume that rape is purely an issue ego and male entitlement created by a society that pushes this ideal of the "assertive male" who brings home the bacon.

Here's the problem: animals (including primates) often force the opposite gender (usually male forcing female but not always) to submit to intercourse. This by definition is not rape since there are no laws governing consent amongst animals, but the behaviors are similar. This implies that rape is not only societal but also genetic; there are factors that make an individual more likely to commit rape. This means that education of all men will likely fail to prevent all/most male initiated rapes. Also, treating rape from this angle tends to criminalize all men; meaning that in every suspected case of rape involving men and women police will assume the male is guilty before seeing a scrap of evidence. This is something that applies to all crimes that are traditionally made by males towards females (autotopic reposted a link to a domestic violence case a little earlier). Most of the time this assumption will be correct, but when it is not correct irreparable damage will have been done to an innocent male's reputation which could affect their ability to succeed in life. This damage can be easily avoided. Then again, rape victims also experience irreparable damage, but can this damage be avoided?

What about the idea that women should just learn to protect themselves/become excellent judges of character/women are purely responsible for rape? This ignores that rape is a probability and not a certainty. No amount of prevention will provide an impenetrable armor against rape since it is the rapist (ideally, lets leave any notion of a "mistaken rape" out of this) is the one who ultimately initiates the rape. The rapist more or less controls the whole situation. Forcing all women to be extra vigilant to the point of paranoia tends to be counter productive since it just creates a lot of mental stress.

Does that make sense? Let me put it in terms of bicycles. On one extreme you have a bicyclist who is covered head to toe in protective gear (helmet, knee pads, elbow pads, training wheels, mouth guard etc). They are never allowed to go too fast on the bike for fear of having an accident. This is the paranoid, but mostly safe woman.

On the other end we have a bicyclist who wears no protective gear and rides recklessly; going very fast and running through stop signs etc. This is the reckless woman.

In the middle is the bicyclist who rides at a moderate pace and who wears a helmet just to be safe. They ride quickly but obey the rules of the road and keep an eye on traffic since not all drivers are paying attention. This is the woman who utilizes basic precautions to avoid being excessive risk, but not so many precautions that she lives in a bubble. What does this individual look like? That's highly debatable.

Bottom line is that in order to completely eliminate rape, someone's liberties will have to be violated. We can teach our young boys to respect women, but we cannot monitor and control them all the time, even if they have a gene or a background that makes them likely to rape, without violating their liberties. We can teach our young girls to be safe, but we cannot force them to live in a bubble without violating their liberties.

I think we could call this the prevention paradox.

[Seriously]

Originally Posted by Rudy To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I'm afraid I don't understand your point. Of course one acts differently in different places. However, if I were to go into the worst part of Philadelphia (which I have not yet done,) and I were afraid of each person I saw being a potential mugger, it would not be their moral responsibility to maintain distance from me, but rather my responsibility to maintain distance from them, if that is what I desired.

If they wanted to approach you in order to befriend you or get to know you better it would behoove them to do so in a non threatening manner otherwise you could possibly consider them a threat. Which would be counterproductive to their goal. The point of this thread initially IMO was to just give men a heads up that it might behoove them as well to consider how they are approaching a woman if they want to actually find her receptive. (behoove is my word for the day.
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)

Great analysis IrishGuy. I think you sum up the problem/situation extremely well.

[reb]

Irish, i don't have a prevention paradox. rape among 'civilized humans' is wrong. education is wonderful; prevention is wonderful; being alert is wonderful. however, there will still be some who wish to rape, which is mostly about 'control issues' from what i've read....

therefore, get rid of the 'rape' gene. the simplest way is to immediately kill proven rapers. kill them before they can pass on their genes, if possible. part of the problem is...like wine on the carpet...it will be impossible to get rid of all the 'rape' dna, most likely.

hope the 'animal' metaphor works for you...there are evidently a lot of posters in this thread who disagree that humans have any commonality to animals.

[Titian]

	Originally Posted by Reon To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Titian: Most people I know that have been raped follow the same line of progression that you have and they seem well off and adjusted to society. The others typically seem more or less sociable but if you go too far they will instantly shut down and often violently repulse anyone and everyone near them. In regards to the latter, how do you help without crossing their comfort zone?

It's difficult to react to "go too far" because I don't know if this refers to actions that are non-threatening which are being perceived as threatening by someone who still needs to heal or if it actually means taking something that is perceived as non-threatening to legitimately cross a line. The first scenario is probably most likely to occur in someone who has not realistically faced what happened to them. The second is most likely to occur because of a lack of empathy in the person who thinks their actions are harmless.

Speaking for myself I know that it would take a lot for me to react violently. Even being hit does not guarantee that I will hit back. I am opposed to violence in general. If I do not think a situation has forced a violent reaction I will continue to remain calm and aware. I vastly prefer the word "aware" to "fearful". Fear, simply put, is only useful for raising your adrenaline levels. Adrenaline is not very useful by itself and is meaningless if it is only the resource of a terrified mind.

What is tricky about it is that realistically facing what has happened is not comfortable. Some things that should be perfectly normal and not threatening will not be comfortable. Take sex for instance. If the victim was in a sexual relationship prior to the incident then that relationship is going to necessarily go through a phase where sex has a new context for one of the partners. Not knowing where the line is will be hard and there is no easy answer. The issue has to be faced by the victim and the victim's feelings have to be considered by their partner. How do you help without crossing the comfort zone in this case? You can't. You have to deal with this with patience and counseling. It's not going to be comfortable for anyone. The same thing would be true if the victim was frequently required to travel to the place where the rape occurred. Maybe this is necessary to go back to work. This can't be a comfortable part of the recovery process but it shouldn't be avoided.

I have to go back to my comparison to a wound healing. Let's say it's your hand that gets hurt. You need that hand. It will have to heal in order for you to go back to something like normal function before. The healing process takes time for the hand to feel like it can work again. If the hand gets back to the point where it should be able to work and can't because it still feels hurt then you have evidence of something other than physical damage. This would be easy to see in the case of a physical wound. The only way to see it in the case of psychological damage is to compare the condition of the person before and after the rape. If they were always uncomfortable with sex or afraid of their route to work then you have other issues to deal with. If they were comfortable with sex and had never been worried about going to work then they need to get back to that point. It's not likely they will make it all the way back to that point. You're going to have to deal with this like you would with seeing someone suddenly wince in pain and hearing "Oh, that's my old college football injury acting up." as an explanation. They're not going to want to be uncomfortable but they will have to deal with their memories.

The simplest answer that I can give to your question is to consistently care that you are helping. Some help cannot be given without the victim's cooperation so you should not place that responsibility too heavily on yourself. Definitely stick with the consistent desire to help though because what you are doing will be difficult and thus very meaningful to the person that you care about.

[plotthickens]

Originally Posted by Rudy To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I'm afraid I don't understand your point. Of course one acts differently in different places. However, if I were to go into the worst part of Philadelphia (which I have not yet done,) and I were afraid of each person I saw being a potential mugger, it would not be their moral responsibility to maintain distance from me, but rather my responsibility to maintain distance from them, if that is what I desired.

Yes. Everyone acts differently because we must be able to live together. It is out of deference to others that I meet eyes on the way to work *eyeroll*. So our behaviour is shaped by the surrounding environs and people.

If you're discriminating against people who are afraid -- where all other deferences (Inside Voice, meeting eyes, wearing a bra, shaving) are OK except those made to people just because they may be victims -- then that's a Tough Love so hard even I cannot contemplate it.

[combustor]

Originally Posted by Night Runner To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Or tied up or drugged. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Surely you're not an advocate of NRA's wet dream of ensuring universal courtesy by arming every American? To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Unless you have a gun glued to your palm, it'll take you quite a while to reach for it, grab it (assuming, once again, that you have it in an easily accessible holster or pocket, not a purse), take the safety off, aim it and fire. A knife may not be a perfect weapon, and hardly anybody knows how to really wield it, but it can be very effective and might discourage a certain percentage of attackers.

It's obvious you have no experience in defensive tactics with firearms by making up a bunch of nonsense about it. With a bit of training and a fair amount of practice one can draw from concealment, aim in on a target at 7 yards, put three rounds in the chest -- all in under 2 seconds. I'd hardly consider that "quite a while". And at shorter range it's even faster.

Knowing my girlfriend won't be a helpless victim when I'm not around is priceless. When I am around I am certainly glad to have an extra set of eyes and backup. I have never been the victim of a violent crime, but being able to learn from others' experiences and mistakes has given me a huge advantage with life in general. I never wait for something to happen to me before I resolve to do something about it or be prepared. You'll notice that most sheeple walk around completely oblivious to their surroundings, with the biggest exceptions being prior violent crime victims, criminals, or LEO. It is especially tough as an INTJ to get outside your head sometimes, and become aware of the external world, but it can be done. Your brain is best defensive tool there is, and INTJs usually have a good one.