[plotthickens]

There seems to be a lot of 'what the heck do women want????' posts on INTJf. Yeah, we can be kinda hard to understand. We're complicated. This is mostly why I'm heterosexual. :wink:

Below, find a link to hands down the best essay I've ever seen on the subject. It details how women see society, themselves, men, and how these relate to each other. It illuminates some otherwise inexplicable behaviours via hard data. It categorically lists near-universal do's and don'ts that will improve all relations with females. It's worth your time.

If I may speak for most women: thank you to every person of every gender who has read and taken the time to understand this essay.


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[Cooper]

I like the title....now I'll read the essay

---------- Post added 12-02-2009 at 01:01 PM ----------

Wow...

I mean no offense by this question....Is that what women think and really feel?

If so, that is so fucked up. I cannot even imagine thinking like that day in and day out about every male you meet. I'm going to go ponder this......

[Theaetetus]

I second that thought, cooper. I'm surprised that I've never heard of this before. I guess having good intentions and being male kinda makes me predisposed to not knowing.

[plotthickens]

Cooper, T,

Yes. Every single day, every single male, every single dark alley.

Hence I never go unarmed, got my first dan before reaching age of maturity, and... well, other highly unusual things. I refuse to be a victim or afraid... much.

[Vagrant]

I like the phrase Schrodinger's rapist. Terribly funny.

But yeah, I never really thought of this either. I mean, I've heard serious statistics of women getting raped, but I never realized how bad the effect is. At least it helps me understand where women are coming from.

But I already understood certain things were unacceptable -- such as saying hi in a dark alley. I always try to meet somebody in the open, in a brightly lit, public place with plenty of escape room.

[Cooper]

I have some questions...this is something I have never thought of, I was (am) in the dark about it and very blown away...

Is this more likely in large population centers, or does it matter?
Is this something you are actively taught or 'just do'?
At what age does this start?
When you start dating a guy, when does it go away? Or does it?
Does every female do this?

I am the type of guy that will offer to help a woman with her bags in the parking lot, help with large or heavy things in the store, open doors, give her my seat, take off my sunglasses when I talk to her, etc. Does this send up those red flags?

Is this truely what women think? I realize you said 'yes' to that, but that is such a fucked up way to look at every male you encounter...

[Daisy McRae]

Lol. Speaking for myself, I'm always fairly careful with strangers etc, but it really isn't like I spend all my time wondering if men are potential rapists. There comes a point when you just have to trust people - most of them are fairly decent! And in my country we're not allowed to walk around armed, which I'm grateful for to be honest - surely that just sets everyone on edge all the time?

[plotthickens]

	Originally Posted by cooper To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I have some questions...this is something I have never thought of, I was (am) in the dark about it and very blown away... Is this more likely in large population centers, or does it matter?

Yes is more likely. That's likely why women dress less attractively in densely populated centers. The more rural, the more feminine the clothing, generally.

	Originally Posted by cooper To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Is this something you are actively taught or 'just do'?

Yes to both. Especially since most girls are taught that ANYTHING sexual is bad, and get propositioned sexually/exposed to predation from a very young age. Therefore we conclude that bad things happen when we're away from authority/adult figures/safety.

	Originally Posted by cooper To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	At what age does this start?

Whenever your parents first send you out with a warning to 'be careful of strange men', 'don't let them touch you', or you get someone wagging their bits at you in the park.

Oh yeah, it happens.

	Originally Posted by cooper To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	When you start dating a guy, when does it go away? Or does it?

It goes away. Until he rapes you, two years into the relationship. Then you're always on guard. Or I am, at least.

	Originally Posted by cooper To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Does every female do this?

Every woman I've ever talked to about this... yes.

	Originally Posted by cooper To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I am the type of guy that will offer to help a woman with her bags in the parking lot, help with large or heavy things in the store, open doors, give her my seat, take off my sunglasses when I talk to her, etc. Does this send up those red flags?

Yes. And it sends up green flags. We are very used to dealing with conflicting signals. The amount and type of flags and our previous experiences determines our reactions to you.

	Originally Posted by cooper To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Is this truely what women think? I realize you said 'yes' to that, but that is such a fucked up way to look at every male you encounter...

YES. YES. YES. I have very good reason to do so. And so does nearly every other woman. Hmmm. Do you walk into a bar and evaluate which of the men you'd have problems with if you got in a fight or something similar? It's the same thing, except one out of every six women you've ever met has had this happen to her... since it's more likely for us to be assaulted, we're more likely to think about it with every single male we encounter.

	Originally Posted by Daisy McRae To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Lol. Speaking for myself, I'm always fairly careful with strangers etc, but it really isn't like I spend all my time wondering if men are potential rapists. There comes a point when you just have to trust people - most of them are fairly decent! And in my country we're not allowed to walk around armed, which I'm grateful for to be honest - surely that just sets everyone on edge all the time?

'Armed' does not always mean guns. The staff is the single most effective weapon in hand-to-hand fighting, especially in skilled hands, and that's including projectile weapons of all types (though I am inordinately fond of the Handgun Stopping Power coffee table book for its effects on Jehovah's Witnesses.
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)

An armed society is a polite society. Being an unarmed rape survivor would put me 'on edge' much more than being an armed rape survivor.

I'm very glad for you that you've never been assaulted, Daisy. I hope it stays that way. Please reconsider "Lol"ing at those of us who have been forced to endure it.

[firebee]

	Originally Posted by cooper To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I realize you said 'yes' to that, but that is such a fucked up way to look at every male you encounter...

Possibly you want to explain why you have such a high degree of certainty of how women should view unproven men, that you are confident in characterizing this model as "fucked up"?

I wouldn't say that I think "could be a rapist" every time I see someone male, but the thought of "potential rapist" (possibly also "potential non-raping pain in the ass") does pretty much ultimately inform any encounter I have with a male person, and more or less along the lines of what the essay outlines. If a person approaches me in public when I have "Do Not Disturb" up, that person is being annoying. If they persist beyond the point where any reasonable person should be able to read disinterest, that person is making me wonder whether their inappropriate behavior has sinister roots. And there are certain behaviors that go immediately to "This person is a threat, I evade now and seek lighted and populated area."

Mostly this is not a problem if people are polite -- but it seems that half of humanity has some sort of mission that justifies to them acting rudely...

[vash]

I personally know three women who were raped (three that admitted it, that is). All of them were caught off guard, and only one of them knew her attacker: none of them were "dressed provocatively" or "drunk" (common male excuses for rape). I am very cautious around men that I don't know well (somewhat less so around those that I do know), and I never put myself in compromising situations (why would a woman be anywhere near a dark alley alone, as the article describes?). Still, I know women can never be careful enough. Far too many men believe women are here to do their bidding, whatever it is. We might live in the 21st century, but some men's attitudes are still Neanderthal. In a highly sexualized society, all women are at risk because society would have us believe that our body parts are our way to success. I would rather be subjected to name-calling (and safe) than to conform to social expectations and be a victim.

[materfamilias]

	Originally Posted by cooper To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I have some questions...this is something I have never thought of, I was (am) in the dark about it and very blown away...

Cooper: You may continue your chivalrous acts and we will still thank you for them.
But consider this: On an instinctive level, we are smaller and physically weaker than most men and we react accordingly to a perceived threat.
With fear.
There is a big difference between a man who helps you with your groceries and a man who comes on to you at night on a public transit bus. IMO, most women don't believe all men are potential rapists. But the article sounds a cautionary note on male behavior and how it is interpreted -- or misinterpreted.
I have no data, but my guess is that men with issues may tend to congregate where social services are available, i.e., cities and county seats. Or they live in suburbia or small towns where their deeds go unpunished.
In short, everywhere.
I've had several encounters over the past few years with stalkers and threats of harm (all job related). One guy showed up in my workplace at night by getting in a side door (my intj publisher rescued me); another wrote my name on public buildings. A man threatened me at a remote accident scene where I was alone and had no cell phone service.
Now, I sleep with a piece of a 2-by-4 under my bed.

[firebee]

More pointy quote from the comments on that essay:

I don’t want strange men to stop bugging me because I’m scared of them. I want them to shut the fuck up because the probability they’ll add anything positive to my life, even for a few seconds, is vanishingly small. And the probability that they’ll annoy me approaches 1. And the probability that they’ll turn violent if they feel like it is nowhere near zero. Fear doesn’t enter into it, just basic awareness of reality.

Mostly it's not "Hai, I iz goin rape you now." Mostly it's "Ur boundaries? I iz in them." But from the standpoint of a guy who is trying to make the acquaintance of an acceptably attractive female, both of these cases end up in Category: DENIED.

[Cooper]

	Originally Posted by plotthickens To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Do you walk into a bar and evaluate which of the men you'd have problems with if you got in a fight or something similar? It's the same thing, except one out of every six women you've ever met has had this happen to her... since it's more likely for us to be assaulted, we're more likely to think about it with every single male we encounter.

Once you put it that way, it makes a bit more sense. However, I cannot fathom walking around on eggshells like that...

[vash]

	Originally Posted by materfamilias To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I've had several encounters over the past few years with stalkers and threats of harm (all job related). One guy showed up in my workplace at night by getting in a side door (my intj publisher rescued me); another wrote my name on public buildings. A man threatened me at a remote accident scene where I was alone and had no cell phone service. Now, I sleep with a piece of a 2-by-4 under my bed.

I have been stalked more than once - the first time in high school, the second time as an undergrad. Both were frightening experiences. I now live next door to a (retired, married) man who watches my comings and goings and has made inappropriate comments to me. As soon as this started (three years ago), I filed a police report on him. Now, he just watches and says nothing. I say nothing to him at all, but my home security system is always on and I am thinking about having security cameras installed. People ask me why I don't just move, but I refuse to be scared out of my home (I just bought it four years ago). Interestingly enough, he has convinced his wife that I am crazy, and she is very hostile to me. I have been in this situation before (men who come on to me and women who want to know what I did to cause it). Too many women are unsupportive of other women who experience harrassment from men.

[Synamon]

	Originally Posted by cooper To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Is this truely what women think? I realize you said 'yes' to that, but that is such a fucked up way to look at every male you encounter...

More fucked up than the attitude many of the men express in threads asking if men and women can be friends where they say "Hell no, I'd hit that"?

[Cooper]

	Originally Posted by firebee To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Possibly you want to explain why you have such a high degree of certainty of how women should view unproven men, that you are confident in characterizing this model as "fucked up"?

No problem.....

No woman should have to walk around feeling threated and wondering who is going to cause her harm. Its 'fucked up' that our world has come to this and women do not feel safe. Its not right....

(I realize that life isn't 'right' and 'fair' and all those other Disney ideas, however I was raised to treat women with respect and I live by that...it is what my Mother taught me)

[firebee]

	Originally Posted by cooper To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	However, I cannot fathom walking around on eggshells like that...

It's not really a matter of walking on eggshells -- mostly, it's like how most people, when they see two young men wearing unusually spiffy matching suits coming down the street on bicycles, either real quick turn off all the lights and hide under the coffee table or real quick turn on the death metal and have their girlfriend strip naked and lie on the coffee table. Because they know that if they don't, they're going to have to do a lot of work to deflect the sincere and friendly and persistently selling something doorbell-ringer.

And if the doorbell-ringers upon seeing that nobody is home do not turn around and go away, but instead produce a saw and start working on the door, then one might begin to be having a state of alarmedness.

[Cooper]

Its still fucked up.....

*please see above post by me*

[plotthickens]

Vash, MF, you have my sympathy. Good for both of you for being proactive without letting the problem seriously affect your life.

	Originally Posted by firebee To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	"potential non-raping pain in the ass"

Dude. YES. YES, yes, this, and I'm rolling my eyes so much I can see my own brain. PITAs are everywhere, and every single one of them thinks that we should want to them eyerape us. And if we don't, we're manhaters. *eyeroll*

	Originally Posted by vash To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	All of them were caught off guard, and only one of them knew her attacker: none of them were "dressed provocatively" or "drunk" (common male excuses for rape).

It is not the victim's fault that they were raped. It is the rapists' fault.

It is not the victim's fault. It is the attackers' failing.

	Originally Posted by cooper To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Once you put it that way, it makes a bit more sense. However, I cannot fathom walking around on eggshells like that...

I don't walk on eggshells. Most of us don't, after recovery. We walk with dignity, self-respect, awareness of our surroundings, and our chosen weapon. We are proactive and strong and self-sufficient, because now we're sure that nobody will 'save us'. We actively engage (talk to, confront) our fears to overcome them, and boy is it hard the first few times. But we do it, because cowering behind the sofa would give them the win.

When we think we're in danger, we stop being nicey nice: "Try it" our walks say, "And you'll have find your teeth later." Eggshells? Pfah.

[Cooper]

Originally Posted by plotthickens To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I don't walk on eggshells. Most of us don't, after recovery. We walk with dignity, self-respect, awareness of our surroundings, and our chosen weapon. We are proactive and strong and self-sufficient, because now we're sure that nobody will 'save us'. We actively engage (talk to, confront) our fears to overcome them, and boy is it hard the first few times. But we do it, because cowering behind the sofa would give them the win. When we think we're in danger, we stop being nicey nice: "Try it" our walks say, "And you'll have find your teeth later." Eggshells? Pfah.

I stand correctly informed...you have given me a new insight on the thoughts and feelings of women.

[firebee]

	Originally Posted by cooper To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Its still fucked up..... *please see above post by me*

I don't disagree, but I might even be a bit more forgiving of the transgressing guys. This is a hard problem, and it's not all about rape -- only the kernel of it is. There are going to be predators out there who take advantage of people. Both men and women, even, and that probably does feature into your calculations of how to deal with strangers even if you're not aware of how it does.

It's not hard to inadvertently cause offense, unfortunately. There's a strong social thread that trains men that success is an inevitable result of persistence and another one that trains women to have highly permeable boundaries and to be ambiguous in expressing them. When these two people meet, the likely unfortunate result is "Oh hey, your comfort zone? I passed it five minutes ago, and now you are beating me about the head and shoulders with a Mag-Lite. Maybe I should try my other pick-up line?" That's not really anyone's fault, often enough, and much as I can see that it should not be, I also see why it is.

[khadi]

	Originally Posted by cooper To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Is this more likely in large population centers, or does it matter? Is this something you are actively taught or 'just do'? At what age does this start? When you start dating a guy, when does it go away? Or does it? Does every female do this?

It starts whenever we learn to be wary. This can be from direct experience, or being taught by someone else, or media, maybe. I'd guess that girls in the city are taught to be careful, by parents or peers, relatively early on. Others of us learn from men directly.

[Ben1220]

Those rape statistics seem counter intuitive, maybe I just live in a really safe country.

*looks up stats

About 1000 women are raped every year in the state where I live (6 million people). In fact men are more common victims of crimes against the person in general (rape being just one example of this.) Especially young men like me, I should be the most paranoid walking around at night according to these statistics. Maybe things are just extremly different in USA, 1 in 6 sounds far far too high. If it is true, I can understand the paranoia to some extent, but I would be carefully looking at how those figures were calculated, since they seem so counter intuitive.

But I do think that many people would feel this way no matter what the statistics said. Its more of a cultural conditioning of fear, I have experienced the same thing too.

Melbourne Central Business District has a big nightlife culture and is sometimes in the news for late night violence and drunken violence, and there is a massive police presence, with about 1 police car parked on every block on saturday night. My paranoid parents, media sensationalism and lack of exposure to the area after dark made me a little nervous, almost fearful when I'm in the city by myself after 9 pm, but after going out late a few more times, and in hindsight I sort of feel that this fear was unjustified.

Of course a few bad experiences with dodgy homeless people while waiting for the bus for example might make someone more paranoid as well.

[plotthickens]

	Originally Posted by cooper To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I stand correctly informed...you have given me a new insight on the thoughts and feelings of women.

*smooch*

This is why I love big strong men (and I'm not talking physical neither). They got nothin to prove so they can experience and learn without a huge ego getting in the way. Yeay Cooper!


Ben: citations, please.

[Aronnax]

	Originally Posted by Synamon To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	More fucked up than the attitude many of the men express in threads asking if men and women can be friends where they say "Hell no, I'd hit that"?

Or the screwed up comments in the thread that would not die: "Sexual Assault: Does The Victim Share Responsibility? "

The outlook is justified; it's sad that it has to be that way though.