[Antagonist]

With today's media, sex is everywhere. Sexual innuendos have leaked into shows for children, and it runs rampant in the music and movie industries. The importance of "good sex" is stressed everywhere in mainstream Western culture today, but how important is it exactly? Would you settle for "bad sex" if the partner was amazing in every other way? What about if the sex was great but your other needs weren't satisfied? Also, what is the difference to you between "bad sex," "mediocre sex," and "good sex?" I quote these because bad sex for some might be good sex to others. Also, is there any subjective significance to the phrase "if the glove fits..." to you?

In my current relationship, the sex is pretty mediocre. I've been with some sexual deviants before and I can't say that the experience was not enjoyable. However, typically my past partners who were crazy in bed were quite unstable outside and had a myriad of issues. My current SO is pretty vanilla in bed, but she's stable, has passion for life, and is generally a sweetheart when I'm not stuck in neurotic thought loops =P

Anyway, what is the importance of sex to you in a relationship? Is it possible to turn bad sex into good sex? What are your personal definitions of each?

[sunlover]

I think if either/both of the folks involved primary love language is "physical touch" it's paramount. I not, it's still important, but not nearly so.

[Blse]

Depends on each person and his/her values. Since this is an MBTI forum, I will give you the generalization made of NT Rational temperaments - generally NTs care less about excitment and more about comittment and dependability, generally NTs are into LTRs and see relationships as investments to be made wisely and do not view casual dating as fun. Again, these are generalizations - it depends on the person. Here's my take:

	Originally Posted by Antagonist To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	but how important is it exactly?

Depends on each individual; our culture tends to glorify casual sex ala Bachelor type, and paints married life as boring and sexually repressive. Ignore the mass culture IMO.

	Originally Posted by Antagonist To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Would you settle for "bad sex" if the partner was amazing in every other way?

Yes. I would not become involve with someone I do not perceive as physically attractive but being able to have a great conversation is more important as being good in bed. Sharing the same core values is also more important.

	Originally Posted by Antagonist To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	What about if the sex was great but your other needs weren't satisfied?

No. I don't even ask girls out unless I see longer-term potential, even if they're "hot." In that sense I'm stereotypical of the NT approach to dating. It's a carefully planned move taking many variables into account and looking years into the future. There is a place for impulsive emotionalism, but deciding upon a partner ain't it. That's my take, which happens to fall in line of how Rationals are generally described in their approach to courtship.

	Originally Posted by Antagonist To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Also, what is the difference to you between "bad sex," "mediocre sex," and "good sex?" I quote these because bad sex for some might be good sex to others. Also, is there any subjective significance to the phrase "if the glove fits..." to you?

If you ask me, no one can answer this question for you but you.

Originally Posted by Antagonist To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

In my current relationship, the sex is pretty mediocre. I've been with some sexual deviants before and I can't say that the experience was not enjoyable. However, typically my past partners who were crazy in bed were quite unstable outside and had a myriad of issues. My current SO is pretty vanilla in bed, but she's stable, has passion for life, and is generally a sweetheart when I'm not stuck in neurotic thought loops =P

If I were you, I would stay in that relationship. In my eyes, using my values as judgement guide, I would be just fine with "vanilla in bed," if they other person is stable, comitted and caring. Breaking up because sex is too boring - although still ok - seems like pure nonsense to me (in a frank irl discussion I would use the word BS). But that's me.

[cannotseethe]

I wouldn't stay in a relationship if the sex were mediocre unless I saw the potential for that changing. I think sexual frustration can affect the rest of the relationship. I also think that fantastic sex can help a relationship through troubling circumstances that might otherwise compromise it. I view it as an important dimension of human experience that shouldn't be neglected or downplayed.

[Storm]

^But, on the same note, great sex wouldn't be the first thing I'd look for in a mate.

[Slacker]

Aside from one particular experience in which the bad sex was due to a stunning lack of skill and common sense, unsatisfactory sex was always a reflection of other, more important issues, related to trust and regard. So I would probably end a relationship that featured bad or boring sex as soon as I realized that I wasn't going to find the emotional intimacy I require. Which is to say that, no, the quality of sex isn't that important, but it's a good indicator for other aspects of a relationship which are.

[cannotseethe]

	Originally Posted by Storm To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	^But, on the same note, great sex wouldn't be the first thing I'd look for in a mate.

Oh, thanks for that. I didn't mean to imply otherwise. I neglected that in my own experience a lot of other things have to be in place before that even becomes a question.

Going back to the OP: yes, I think you can turn mediocre sex into good sex, but I think it requires openness to the possibility. Some people have trouble talking about their sex life together at all, let alone openly acknowledging that it's not quite working and could use some work. Working on it together is half the fun.

Consider the alternative: you're thinking "our sex life is mediocre" and they're thinking "wow, we have the best sex ever!" I'd think that any sort of perceptual mismatch like that in a relationship is potentially problematic.

[Antagonist]

	Originally Posted by Blse To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	If I were you, I would stay in that relationship. In my eyes, using my values as judgement guide, I would be just fine with "vanilla in bed," if they other person is stable, comitted and caring. Breaking up because sex is too boring - although still ok - seems like pure nonsense to me (in a frank irl discussion I would use the word BS). But that's me.

Oh, I didn't plan on leaving it anytime soon at all. It was more of an elaboration on my opinion: great sex is great, but it's not everything. If a strong emotional connection is there, "vanilla sex" can be amazing.

	Originally Posted by cannotseethe To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I wouldn't stay in a relationship if the sex were mediocre unless I saw the potential for that changing. I think sexual frustration can affect the rest of the relationship. I also think that fantastic sex can help a relationship through troubling circumstances that might otherwise compromise it. I view it as an important dimension of human experience that shouldn't be neglected or downplayed.

I tend to view the term "mediocre" with a more positive outlook; perhaps I should have used "satisfactory" instead to be more clear. What about if the sex is good but the quantity is not enough? For instance, you and your partner have amazing sex one night a week, but he/she is not interested in it any more than that?

[cannotseethe]

	Originally Posted by Antagonist To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I tend to view the term "mediocre" with a more positive outlook; perhaps I should have used "satisfactory" instead to be more clear. What about if the sex is good but the quantity is not enough? For instance, you and your partner have amazing sex one night a week, but he/she is not interested in it any more than that?

This might sound silly, and might not work for everyone, but it can work. Talk about sex more often. Just bring it up as a topic of conversation. Not in a critical "I wish we had more sex" sort of way. Just as something that you talk about. Ask about their fantasies, maybe, or what they like most/least about your sex life. Talking about sex can be incredibly arousing. It can be fore-foreplay.

[larkin]

I've said before, so don't mean to sound like I'm repeating myself (to those keeping such a close count of others' opinions on such things), but sex is a form of communication. If the sex is bad, and as CST says there's no potential for that changing, I'm not sure how long I would feel comfortable in a relationship like that. I don't think I would settle for a partner who was unwilling to talk about it, experiment, change things, and work to meet each other's needs better, with either issues of sexual compatibility or general compatibility.

So yes, I think things can improve, but it always starts with being open about what you need. (EDIT: again as CST says, not in a "I need sex three times a day" kind of way. But you need to explore, and chances are she does too, it's just a matter of creating an environment that encourages that.)

Along those lines, the way you phrase it sounds more like you're working out how much interest you have in someone who's stable period, who's a little more vanilla than you're used to generally. But that's in transition. Yeah, I think it's possible to find a happy medium, someone who's more emotionally balanced but still holds mystery and attraction.

[True Rune]

Asexual chiming in.. I can do without.. xD
But I'm not a romantic kind either, but they exist and they'd say the same thing.

[astrolite]

I guess I am lucky. All I have to do is breathe a suggestive, warm whisper at the nape of my girlfriend's neck and she melts. Mood seems to always dictate how good it will be... so try some seduction to drive her wild. If you continue to have mediocre sex as the norm, perhaps there is a larger issue that needs to be addressed...

[Antagonist]

	Originally Posted by astrolite To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I guess I am lucky. All I have to do is breathe a suggestive, warm whisper at the nape of my girlfriend's neck and she melts. Mood seems to always dictate how good it will be... so try some seduction to drive her wild. If you continue to have mediocre sex as the norm, perhaps there is a larger issue that needs to be addressed...

Haha, I wouldn't even know where to start when it comes to seduction. Definitely not one of my strengths =/

[larkin]

	Originally Posted by Antagonist To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Haha, I wouldn't even know where to start when it comes to seduction. Definitely not one of my strengths =/

Start with: talking and touching. For most people, especially those in a relationship, it's (usually) not a thing where you have to buy her a dozen roses or anything. Just talking to someone while you're touching them is often enough.

[cannotseethe]

	Originally Posted by Antagonist To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Haha, I wouldn't even know where to start when it comes to seduction. Definitely not one of my strengths =/

Sounds like a worthwhile self-improvement project.

Just to be clear, it's not about picking up random women. It's about learning what really does it for your girlfriend and you. Everyone is different, so it is about experimenting and learning.

[Zombicide]

I don't care for sex, and by that I mean coitus or penetration or even worse, the disgusting things that people are into and consider sex or part of sex. Fantasy-wise sex is wonderful but real sex creeps me the fuck out and I'd prefer she not lie to me about her sexuality to keep the relationship going or whatever. There's a lot of other cool things we can do, including things akin to sex but no, sex itself is not necessarily important for me.

[Myotis]

Lol at sex between 2 humans, we already all know that you can't rely on anyone to do anything right.

All I need is one hand and one brain.

[astrolite]

	Originally Posted by Antagonist To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Haha, I wouldn't even know where to start when it comes to seduction. Definitely not one of my strengths =/

If you don't mind sharing... how do you usually engage sexual interest - or your girlfriend to you? Do you just saying "hey, it's Wednesday, let's f!@$" or is there a ritual/routine?

I've found that a lot of people like spontaneity, so keeping her guessing can also be a huge turn-on. Confidence is also a key... speak your words as if it WILL happen.

And for humor:
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

[JustMel]

I'm in agreement with CST and Storm's first replies. It's important to me to be sexually compatible and I have no intention of settling for someone who is mediocre in bed unless they're willing to learn.

Tantric Sex is a good book on the subject.

[Bluesea]

I think sex is a dimension of a romantic relationship that defines it as different from other intimate relationships and is an important thing to pay attention to, and to devote time and energy to just like any other part of a relationship. It wanes and changes through time and some people can get stuck in a rut and find it hard to talk to each other about it. If this part of the relationship is seen as less important or less relevant by one partner, and not another, this can lead to tensions that spill out into other areas of the relationship or could lead to one person making decisions to get releases in other ways outside the relationship. I think we need to take care of relationships we value, and put things into them to keep them interesting, evolving, satisfying and keep the communication about this going. I think it is common for people to just think everything will work itself out or be ok, just merely by being in the relationship together. I think this idea comes from the fairy story scenario - they fell in love "and lived happily ever after". All the detail about the process is in the falling into love and declaring a commitment, then the story ends, as if that is all that needs to happen. Whether we realise it consciously or not, some of these early stories or social messages have sewn expectations and blind spots in our awareness so we forge blindly on. Then real experiences teach us that things are otherwise later on, which helps our awareness grow about what we could have done instead.

I think good relationships, and good sex, are qualitatively different than bad ones partly because people are choosing to do different things, choosing to communicate differently about what is happening and their needs, and are investing in the situation more deliberately and consciously to maintain and/or grow what they want the relationship / sex life to be.

That being said - if you are both happy about it, however you are just wondering about whether you should be or not - as you have heard of, or perceive that better sex than what you currently have might exist - this process could in itself result in some dissatisfaction emerging, if you decide from this that you should be having better sex than you are? With media and people sharing experiences it can be natural to compare our experiences with what we observe others having and drawing a conclusion from it. I guess I would ask you why you are asking this question of yourself at the moment and what is at the end of the road when you explore that pathway of thought? Do you want confirmation or change?

	Is it possible to turn bad sex into good sex?

I definitely think you can improve things, however both parties need to be equally into this and comfortable with the process. I think it is wise to consider your partner's sexual self esteem and make sure you broach it in a way that does not result in a knock in confidence or sew seeds of doubt - as this can then impact negatively on her sexual self expression. There are heaps of resources out there to explore and much fun to be had in the exploration.

I guess what I am saying is, for me, I don't think it is something to sacrifice in favour of another part of the relationship. If other parts are good, great. However I would focus on improving the sex, so that the whole thing is great, as I would not want the relationship to deteriorate over time or be lost by neglecting this area. I do think though, that good sex can cover a bad relationship and keep people going for a while either until they end it or work through the difficult patch. So all in all, I think it is important.

[Antagonist]

Originally Posted by astrolite To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

If you don't mind sharing... how do you usually engage sexual interest - or your girlfriend to you? Do you just saying "hey, it's Wednesday, let's f!@$" or is there a ritual/routine? I've found that a lot of people like spontaneity, so keeping her guessing can also be a huge turn-on. Confidence is also a key... speak your words as if it WILL happen. And for humor: To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Lately I haven't engaged at all. 90% of the time I'm shot down and feel like a fool, so I've stopped completely. The other 10% of the time it feels like she's just going through the motions out of necessity for the relationship.

When she initiates, she usually just jumps me. The only time she kisses me passionately is before we have sex, so once there's any tongue involved I know what's going on and it just happens.

In the beginning we were both horndogs and jumped each other all the time. Now I hardly feel like she's attracted to me at all. When we do have sex it's not bad, I mean we both get off most of the time, but it feels like something is missing. I don't feel like she's that attracted to me anymore. Whenever a "hot" guy is on TV she hoots and hollers, and she tells me about how she gets smitten with shyness and turns red whenever whenever a military man in uniform or a fireman comes into her workplace. However, with me, I just don't feel like the attraction is there.

Maybe the flame has just burned out and it's time for me to move on.... I've posted a lot about my (perceived) relationship problems on this board before, perhaps I'm putting too much energy into it? I've been feeling more drained and less motivated than ever lately....

[TigerL]

Antagonist, I haven't kept track of your posts but it sounds like your problems are less about sex and more about the relationship in general.

From what I know, women who feel more secure/ loved/ supported (this comes down to even things like taking out the garbage, helping with the kids,etc.) in a relationship are more likely to be sexually engaged with their partners.

Sex is not high up on my list of priorities although attraction is there somewhere; my thought is anything can be improved if you are committed and put effort into it.

[Antagonist]

Originally Posted by TigerL To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Antagonist, I haven't kept track of your posts but it sounds like your problems are less about sex and more about the relationship in general. From what I know, women who feel more secure/ loved/ supported (this comes down to even things like taking out the garbage, helping with the kids,etc.) in a relationship are more likely to be sexually engaged with their partners. Sex is not high up on my list of priorities although attraction is there somewhere; my thought is anything can be improved if you are committed and put effort into it.

The funny thing is, I do everything in my power to show that I care for her. I give her massages spontaneously, rub her feet after a long day, among other things. It sort of seems like she's just with me for the security.... Maybe I'm just insecure? It feels like one of those brother/sister type relationships.

I've asked her if there's anything she's unsatisfied about in our sex life and she said everything is great, but I don't believe her for some reason. If everything was great then why would she seem so disinterested? I've pressed the issue to gain no further ground. We have deep conversations about personal issues and the commitment is there, it just feels like the passion has died. Any tips on how to reignite the spark? Lately I've been conflicted about where this is going, and I've almost given up hope. Sometimes I think it would just be easier to sever and move on with life than to just keep going through this cycle.

[TigerL]

It sounds like you are trying but she doesn't want to delve into the conversation with you. And it's hard to force it if the other person isn't interested.

You might have already done this but try to be as blunt and direct about your concerns with her as possible. Start with something positive, like "I love how we can have deep conversations about personal issues, etc." and go from there. Have there been any changes in your situation?

No need to elaborate here if you don't want to but some people lose their interest in their mate if he/she gains/loses too much weight/ job pressures/ interested in someone else, etc.

"Re-igniting the spark" - there are lots of books out there about maintaining a long-term relationship and you could probably check one out from the library. But the bottom line is you wil have to individualize the methods for you and her. How about thinking about some circumstances where you were both feeling great and trying to replicate them?

[Vagrant]

	Originally Posted by sunlover To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I think if either/both of the folks involved primary love language is "physical touch" it's paramount. I not, it's still important, but not nearly so.

I think sunlover brings up a great point here.

It depends on what each party finds important as communicating their caring for each other. If their love language is physical touch, then yes, sex would be crucial. If their love language is doing kind things for each other, then it wouldn't be as important.

I know that physical touch is very important to me in a relationship. So yes, good sex would be important.