[cannotseethe]

	Originally Posted by larkin To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	And sometimes even if you are in the top 5%! No more voting for Ken Lewis. But I'm sure he's just sitting in his backyard crying about it. Or, possibly, sitting in the offices of his thousand-dollars-per-hour lobbyists on K St., funded in large part through the government bailout. He'll have to console himself with influencing the government the old-fashioned way.

*gasp* You mean by voting?! Bizarre suggestion.

It has me wondering, all of a sudden, what would happen if we all voted on who got to vote. Who do you suppose would end up with voting rights?

[Storm]

	Originally Posted by mathogre To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	If you're getting money from the government, you're going to be biased to get more and vote accordingly. It has nothing to do with bias, so don't twist the argument.

I'm not twisting your argument. Just taking it to it's logical conclusion. Also you just wrote that you don't want people to vote who biased, but that it has nothing to do with bias? That's a direct contradiction.

The point of voting is that people get to voice their opinion. Opinions are biases (favor toward one side). If you eliminate everyone with an opinion you don't like, you aren't living a democracy anymore.

[mathogre]

Originally Posted by Storm To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I'm not twisting your argument. Just taking it to it's logical conclusion. Also you just wrote that you don't want people to vote who biased, but that it has nothing to do with bias? That's a direct contradiction. The point of voting is that people get to voice their opinion. Opinions are biases (favor toward one side). If you eliminate everyone with an opinion you don't like, you aren't living a democracy anymore.

We're not a democracy.

[cannotseethe]

	Originally Posted by mathogre To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	We're not a democracy.

That's irrelevant to his point. Frankly, I think pushing this line of thought to its real logical conclusion forces you to believe that voting itself is bad, and that nobody should vote.

[mathogre]

	Originally Posted by cannotseethe To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	That's irrelevant to his point. Frankly, I think pushing this line of thought to its real logical conclusion forces you to believe that voting itself is bad, and that nobody should vote.

That's as irrelevant as responding to the point about this being a democracy or a republic.

The original question was asked. I answered. Arguing about it is irrelevant.

[larkin]

	Originally Posted by cannotseethe To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	*gasp* You mean by voting?! Bizarre suggestion. It has me wondering, all of a sudden, what would happen if we all voted on who got to vote. Who do you suppose would end up with voting rights?

Ha, actually I meant the old old-fashioned way, which is buying your influence through lobbyists. Hey, it's the way of the world, I'm not complaining (much!), but it's part of what makes the idea that this whole thread is premised on - that there's this need to limit the rampant influence of poor people on our politicians - so ridiculous.

But, good point about voting.

[cannotseethe]

	Originally Posted by larkin To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	it's part of what makes the idea that this whole thread is premised on - that there's this need to limit the rampant influence of poor people on our politicians - so ridiculous.

It really is crazy, larkin, how much power and influence poor people have. Everything is slanted in their favor. They have the ear of major politicians, enjoy the best food and drink, fly around in private jets wherever they want ... to ... go ...

Uh.

[Aronnax]

	Originally Posted by mathogre To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	That's as irrelevant as responding to the point about this being a democracy or a republic. The original question was asked. I answered. Arguing about it is irrelevant.

That's one of the quirks about posting on this forum, people tend to ask you to defend the logic behind your statements.

As an aside if arguing about the post is irrelevant why are you still arguing? Personally I find value in exploring ideas and being forced to flesh out my own arguments.

[Dodeca]

Consider this scenario.

The voting rights of 32 million american have been taken away. Police arrest anyone trying to register to vote. The police must pull triple shifts. Gangs form to resit them. Moderate voters support the resistance. The rich buy off the police.

Waite a second. I think this is the plot of the movie V for Vendetta.

[Lucid]

	Originally Posted by mathogre To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	That's as irrelevant as responding to the point about this being a democracy or a republic. The original question was asked. I answered. Arguing about it is irrelevant.

Yeah, if you don't want to have your statements or ideas questioned or challenged it's best not to volunteer them.

However, by your logic people with children shouldn't be able to vote for the school board director since they are biased to want the best for their children.

I think you should reexamine both your logical process and your purpose for posting here.
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

[Storm]

	Originally Posted by mathogre To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	We're not a democracy.

Ok, the point was that if you want a government where people have a say in government, you have to, you know, give them a say. The term "democracy" was being used as a shorthand for this idea of representation through voting, not the technical definition.

Also, I don't really know who "we" is in that sentence, this argument isn't limited to any particular country.

Anyway, technicalities aside, you still haven't even bothered to address my concerns about where the logic of denying the vote to certain subsets leads us. Nor have you answered what you think the purpose of voting is.

	Originally Posted by mathogre To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	That's as irrelevant as responding to the point about this being a democracy or a republic. The original question was asked. I answered. Arguing about it is irrelevant.

Irrelevant if you thought this was a feeling circle where everyone is right. Very very very relevant if this were a discussion/debate about whether or not the idea expressed in the OP is a valid idea.

[Bluesea]

	originally posted by Tragic Hero Bluesea, could please articulate exactly how the poor in your country are oppressed?

No doubt the same ways all poor are oppressed in other countries. In some ways we actually have quite a good system in our country as there is welfare, subsidised and free health care options for people with less money. And a student loan system set up by the government so that people can educate themselves and in this way better their circumstances.

Majorities can inadvertently and deliberately exclude people by restricting their access to certain experiences due to the size of the price tag or expenses involved. Value bases within society can exclude people by developing systems around those values that reduce the growth and sustainability of alternative economic systems that may suit the poor better - capitalism for example verses barter. Social values that rule perceptions, judgements, middle class appearances can lower the poor's access to social acceptance and validation and keep them psychologically and emotionally oppressed. Language can be a barrier, immigrants can find it harder to get good jobs if their English is not great even if they are skilled and educated and had better jobs in their countries of origin, cultures can be oppressed in these sorts of ways through the greater number of challenges to do the same things.

[nowt]

Poor is the new black.

[paradoxical]

	Originally Posted by Dodeca To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Consider this scenario. The voting rights of 32 million american have been taken away. Police arrest anyone trying to register to vote. The police must pull triple shifts. Gangs form to resit them. Moderate voters support the resistance. The rich buy off the police. Waite a second. I think this is the plot of the movie V for Vendetta.

The officers are on furlow because their local governments don't have the financial resources to pay them.

Perhaps Martial Law is declared and then your scenario may continue to play out...