[MyOtherSelf]

I grew up watching two people, my parents, fighting with eachother and mistreating eachother constantly. I am starting to believe, as a result, that I have a very skewed perception about marriage (I see it as a dangerous and bad thing that just looks good on the outside) and about intimate relationships. I think i vary between two extremes...not demanding enough respect from a partner, and being overly idealistic in my expectations....mostly out of fear that I will end up in a relationship that looks like theirs.

My parents yell at one another all the time. My mother is verbally abusive, and my father's behaviour, though not as aggressive, perpetuates the cycle. I have a very deep fear of anger and violence (though there was no physical violence in my home while growing up, I still become completely paralyzed when someone expresses anger towards me)

Only today did it occur to me that even though I'm a smart person who has observed many relationships around me, there is a high chance that I don't truly know what a healthy relationship looks like. The only intimate relationship I have really "Seen" is my parents' relationship. I want to gain more perspectives on this...from those who have firsthand experience either in intimate relationships or witnessing intimate relationships...both good and bad. Where do you draw the line between behaviours you won't tolerate in your partner, and things that are mistakes and that can be forgiven? When does something turn from being an appropriate expression of anger to verbal abuse?

At your worst and most frustrated point, what is the cruelest thing you have ever said to your partner, or what is the cruelest thing your partner has ever said to you? Were you/they forgiven?

Yes, this topic is quite morbid. But I had such severe communication issues with my last boyfriend, and I still don't know if I was doing something wrong, or if his behaviour had crossed the line. I want my future relationships to be healthy...and I want to know when I am being mistreated, and when I am just in a fight. I have enormous difficulties trusting my instincts when it comes to these things.

Your help/insight/advice would be greatly appreciated! I can provide more details if necessary.

[Fanowene]

The best relationship I've seen so far is the one my parents have. They will have disagreements from time to time, but when trying to resolve the issue they will never call each other names or put each other down. They only speak of how they perceive things and try to understand where the other person is coming from. They don't keep secrets from each other either. Whatever I tell one parent will be known by the other parent sooner than later... They support each other in anything and everything they do, especially my dad. My dad lives for the family...

Guess how my father grew up? He grew up in a super abusive family, on a farm. His father was an alcoholic who beat up his family, treated them all like dirt (or worse), thought education was a waste of time, etc. etc. My dad turned out more than just alright (eventually). So don't worry, you can do it too.
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The worst thing that happens in our family is when somebody temporarily gets a bit lazy and doesn't help around in the house. Or, in the heat of a discussion, when somebody fails to truly consider another point of view. That's something we apologize to each other for. Even if we get mad at each other, forgiveness usually happens within a couple seconds or minutes. If it's a bigger deal, then we'll usually leave each other alone until the offended person decides to show his/her face again - with the expectation on both sides that the offense has been forgiven. There really is no reason to hold grudges.

My middle sister had a psychotic breakdown in the summer of 2008, and her recovery has been very difficult. She was pretty hard to deal with for several months. She's an INFP, so you can imagine how fragile she is and how hard it was for her to reestablish some notion of who she is, especially amidst all the negative feedback she was getting for her weird/destructive behavior. I'm still having really big troubles trying to forget all the things she did and said that summer... I love her, but she still hasn't regained my trust completely. She was so stupid for a while... It's sad, really. If I had more time to spend with her it would be a lot easier, but I don't live with my parents anymore. Come to think of it, I really should have engaged in small talk when she called me on Thursday. She called me with an "How are you doing?" and I just responded with a "Good. Why?" (she had a question about transcripts). I really should have asked her more about her life... People have been telling me that she wants to get close to me again. Her and I used to be so much closer than I was to my little sister. When she had her breakdown it was like she had died... like I had lost a sister. But she's gotten so much better... She's going to community college and getting good grades, she's gradually getting better at remembering stuff she's supposed to do, taking responsibility, etc. But I digress.

[Thinker]

I have been wondering the same thing recently.

My own family history is similar to your own.
A toxic family situation and no other relationships which can provide a reference point for a “good” relationship. I was 18 before I stayed at a friend’s place over night and realised families actually said things like “good morning” to each other.....and talked over breakfast. It was a revelation to me after seeing so much anger! I can’t recall my parents ever apologising to anyone for their actions.

Once again there was no physical violence in my situation.

I can equally relate to being “paralyzed when someone expresses anger towards me”.
I still find it difficult to deal with anger towards me. I just learned to switch off when I was a child.

I am married....and at the moment it is not all that happy...it is not an abusive relationship by any measure.
In some ways this does go back to my family history. I will leave it at that.
I am happy to answer questions in a PM.

[Latro]

I think I can kinda relate. My parents have some pretty substantial issues, probably not as bad as you all but still pretty substantial. I have no idea what a truly healthy relationship would be like, or how one might establish one properly. My one main thing is something my dad has imbued in me, which is to start from the premise of at least not saying things that are blatantly false, even if you don't share every detail (this applying to life in general not just relationships). I think that'd be pretty important, as would proper communication. I can't think of much else, though, and I have no relationship experience to work off of.

[catzmeow]

Originally Posted by MyOtherSelf To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I grew up watching two people, my parents, fighting with eachother and mistreating eachother constantly. I am starting to believe, as a result, that I have a very skewed perception about marriage (I see it as a dangerous and bad thing that just looks good on the outside) and about intimate relationships. I think i vary between two extremes...not demanding enough respect from a partner, and being overly idealistic in my expectations....mostly out of fear that I will end up in a relationship that looks like theirs. My parents yell at one another all the time. My mother is verbally abusive, and my father's behaviour, though not as aggressive, perpetuates the cycle. I have a very deep fear of anger and violence (though there was no physical violence in my home while growing up, I still become completely paralyzed when someone expresses anger towards me)

Based solely upon this, you probably will need to do some internal work to figure out what a healthy relationship looks like...your default setting is not a healthy one. You will likely be drawn to similarly conflicted relationships if you don't address the issues from your childhood. I would suggest that you spend time thinking about what a good relationship would look like, to you. What do you want? What would be intolerable to you? What is the minimum that you need?

For me, a healthy relationship is an equitable one. There is a reciprocal give/take between the partners, both of whom are committed to each other's well-being. There is room to grow. There is time spent apart, but a significant amount of enjoyment in spending time together. Fights are specific in nature, and don't spread out into attacks about each other's character and/or history.

[zibber]

There will always be "conflict" in relationships. Not conflict as in war, just disagreements. Unless you marry your clone, this is inevitable. (Even then, you're bound to quarrel over this and that. It's not like I always agree with myself, dig.)

What's important is how this is resolved. A "fight" can always be prevented or nipped in the bud and doesn't necessarily signify an "unhealthy" relationship. Through individual improvement, the tendency to turn a disagreement into a fight (by introducing unnecessary and/or malicious references and such) can be minimized.

In other words, disagreements are a fact of life. Two partners that fight a lot (ie unnecessarily escalate disagreements) need to work out personal issues, not necessarily "relationship issues".

There is no single template for a "healthy relationship", so don't fall into the conceptual trap of thinking there is "one way to do it". What you should consider in each individual case is the balance, harmony or however you want to call it. Is everyone's ideal give/take ratio in order? Are disagreements resolved maturely and level-headedly? What (misc.) qualms does each involved party have and can these realistically be resolved?

[northshore]

Only today did it occur to me that even though I'm a smart person who has observed many relationships around me, there is a high chance that I don't truly know what a healthy relationship looks like....Where do you draw the line between behaviours you won't tolerate in your partner, and things that are mistakes and that can be forgiven? When does something turn from being an appropriate expression of anger to verbal abuse? At your worst and most frustrated point, what is the cruelest thing you have ever said to your partner, or what is the cruelest thing your partner has ever said to you? Were you/they forgiven?

First off, the fact you are contemplating these questions is a great indicator that you already know what is appropriate or not within an intimate relationship, for you. Couples in cycles of abuse don't stop to think about the line between appropriate expressions of anger vs. verbal abuse. Some people are more self-aware than others, and you're obviously quite aware of what goes on around you.

I believe a healthy relationship can be very different for different people, particularly in different places/cultural contexts. Therefore, a healthy relationship is a relative concept, but one commonality should be a strong foundation of mutual respect.

For me, I think in an acceptable (healthy) type of conflict/disagreement, if there is mutual respect, no one unnecessarily escalates the conflict. Both parties will follow the golden rule, and nothing will be said which isn't both necessary and kind.

In teaching negotiation, the three elements which are usually discussed are interests, rights, and power. Once either party escalates beyond interests to rights, it is generally inevitable the whole conflict will become about who has the power. The key is to never let a conflict move beyond negotiating about interests (unless you have the power and it's a one time interaction, in which case you're the decider). But relationships are never about one-time interactions, so it is critical to never escalate.

	Where do you draw the line between behaviours you won't tolerate in your partner, and things that are mistakes and that can be forgiven?

I know we may have different perspectives on religion, and that's of course all good. However, to me, as a Christian, I believe all mistakes require forgiveness. This is actually a very practical belief. Always forgiving others makes life a lot easier and less prone to suboptimal spirals of negative interaction.

Of course, having standards is different than the issue of forgiveness, I think. For example, I dated a girl in high school and college who was wonderful 99% of the time. But 1% of the time she would get very angry and often swear at me. No one ever swore at each other in my home, but I found out they did in hers. This really hurt me, as I think it is abusive. So, I explained this wasn't ok with me and forgave her multiple times. However, I eventually ended the relationship over this since she wouldn't (couldn't?) change. She always escalated conflicts to power, and it's a losing long-term strategy.

	At your worst and most frustrated point, what is the cruelest thing you have ever said to your partner, or what is the cruelest thing your partner has ever said to you? Were you/they forgiven?

In my opinion, it is actions, not words, which can be the cruelest. But to answer your question, to me, the lack of words, ie being ignored, always hurts the most.

[MyOtherSelf]

	Originally Posted by catzmeow To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I would suggest that you spend time thinking about what a good relationship would look like, to you. What do you want? What would be intolerable to you? What is the minimum that you need?

It's so difficult to answer this question when I have no reference point. However, I know what I DON'T want based on relationships I have had in the past. I just don't have enough experience to figure out what I do need. One thing I am certain of though, is that I need someone who deals with anger in a healthy way. When my ex boyfriend was really angry, he would throw something at the door or slam it. When he got mad at me, he would become so angry and I would just completely shut down. Once when were in a fight, he said "F**k you" to me, and I just froze up and that was it. There was no resolving anything because I just became too fearful of communicating with him once his mood had escalated to that point.

I think that because of the way I grew up, I am in a constant state of fear that people are going to verbally assault me. My friends are mostly calm, smart, but very very easygoing people with very pacifistic personalities. I think this is a starting point for what I would look for in a mate. I just think that I don't have the right concept of how I deserve to be treated. I hope that I treat others well...I definitely try. But my past relationship was a prime example of me experiencing something that I thought was normal, because of how my parents interacted.

It scared me that I stayed in it for so long. The problem is, with parents who I can't trust, I sometimes feel like I have no backbone. I don't want to ever get into a bad relationship just because I need to feel like there's someone who cares. Then I will certainly end up like my parents.

It scared me how stupid I was being. I want to forgive myself and learn from it and move on...but right now I am coming to terms with the fact that I made some bad choices, and it's a horrible and scary feeling.

[jndiii]

	Originally Posted by MyOtherSelf To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	It scared me how stupid I was being. I want to forgive myself and learn from it and move on...but right now I am coming to terms with the fact that I made some bad choices, and it's a horrible and scary feeling.

This is exactly what you need to do: INTJs have all sorts of weaknesses, especially with respect to handling relationships. However, we do have some very good strengths, should we choose to take advantage of them. Primarily, we do not suffer fools gladly, and more importantly, we are very upset with ourselves when we make a foolish choice. We correct that foolishness as quickly as possible when we realize that it's there.

It feels bad and scary, but you can own it and live up to it.

I have a joke saying when people start to blame me for something or other: "Yes, it's all my fault. Beware my power! Mwahahahahah!"

If something is really your fault, that means it is under your control, and the only problem was how you exercised your control. Now, not only do you know better, you know you have control and that you can make future choices such that you (usually) won't repeat past mistakes.

Learning from your mistakes and vowing to make better choices in the future is exactly how to forgive yourself. You've made the mistake. You learn from it. The only unforgivable thing is to not learn from it.

[catzmeow]

Originally Posted by MyOtherSelf To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I think that because of the way I grew up, I am in a constant state of fear that people are going to verbally assault me. My friends are mostly calm, smart, but very very easygoing people with very pacifistic personalities. I think this is a starting point for what I would look for in a mate. I just think that I don't have the right concept of how I deserve to be treated. I hope that I treat others well...I definitely try. But my past relationship was a prime example of me experiencing something that I thought was normal, because of how my parents interacted. It scared me that I stayed in it for so long. The problem is, with parents who I can't trust, I sometimes feel like I have no backbone. I don't want to ever get into a bad relationship just because I need to feel like there's someone who cares. Then I will certainly end up like my parents. It scared me how stupid I was being. I want to forgive myself and learn from it and move on...but right now I am coming to terms with the fact that I made some bad choices, and it's a horrible and scary feeling.

The more you become cognizant of your own patterns and what motivates you, the better you will get at determining whether people are good for you, or not. Another thing that can be helpful is this...even if you don't have a lot of experience with relationships, watch your friends. Notice who has a good relationship, with qualities that you would like to experience, and who doesn't. Notice what behaviors would be intolerable for you, and what qualities you would like to seek out. You can learn from your friends' healthy relationships.

YOu should also consider talking to a therapist specifically for learning some coping strategies to deal with the hypervigilance (the ongoing fear that you describe).

[XFire35]

I have wondered this question before too. My family unit, well, it's not good; the relationships that my friends have with their families too, are just as peachy. In that regard, I see relationships as constant opportunities for betrayal, abuse and persistent upper-hand grabbing. This scares me a great deal, one of my biggest fears is become a certain person and having my relationships turn sour. His actions have messed with a lot of people and I don't want to join the fan club.

There is only one relationship that I have seen which is 'healthy', my aunt and uncles. It puzzles me greatly, how two people can live like it and not be at war, how they act together, well it just puzzles me.

[MyOtherSelf]

	Originally Posted by catzmeow To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	YOu should also consider talking to a therapist specifically for learning some coping strategies to deal with the hypervigilance (the ongoing fear that you describe).

I started seeing a Psy D (this is what my insurance covers) and at first, it was helpful, but now for some reason I don't feel so comfortable with it anymore. I am thinking about looking for a new one. I think I need to find one who is super duper smart...who I can't "trick." Not that I want to...but therapy just isn't as easy as I thought it would be.

[plotthickens]

MOS, your parents' relationship sounds like mine, except I got hit a lot. It's the verbal abuse that leaves the most scars, so... yeah, that sucks.

I've been in a lot of relationships. What seems to work are these guidelines:

1. At least one person must be willing to be 'the adult' at any given time. Both people must switch off on this or do it jointly.
2. Communications must be frequent, clear and honest. This requires honesty of and to one's self first.
3. The most important goals are happiness and harmony of all involved, both short AND long term.
4. Each person must be willing to give more than they think is fair for the relationship to work. That is, in relationship math, 80% + 80% = 100%.

	Originally Posted by MyOtherSelf To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Where do you draw the line between behaviours you won't tolerate in your partner, and things that are mistakes and that can be forgiven?

All mistakes can be forgiven as long as they do not do irreparable harm.
I will not tolerate disrespect of either of us, from either of us. Nor: disparagement, belittling, passive-aggressive comments, nor conversation that is not clear and honest.

THIS not THIS

"Dang, I broke that dish!" "Aw, that sucks. Did you hurt yourself? No shrapnel? Okay, I'll go get your shoes and a broom, don't move or you could cut your feet."
~not~ "Broke another one, eh genius?" (disrespect)
~not~ "I'm so clumsy and stupid." (disparagement & belittling)
~not~ "It's okay, we didn't NEED all of your grandmother's service, now, did we?" (passive aggressive)
~not~ "So ya don't like my grandmother's dishes?" (neither clear nor honest)

	Originally Posted by MyOtherSelf To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	When does something turn from being an appropriate expression of anger to verbal abuse?

When it could hurt the other person. If you don't know what could hurt, then you're not in an 'intimate' relationship yet.

	Originally Posted by MyOtherSelf To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	At your worst and most frustrated point, what is the cruelest thing you have ever said to your partner, or what is the cruelest thing your partner has ever said to you? Were you/they forgiven?

No I'm not telling you, and yes we were forgiven, because it was true. And we work on our problems as a partnership.

Originally Posted by MyOtherSelf To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Yes, this topic is quite morbid. But I had such severe communication issues with my last boyfriend, and I still don't know if I was doing something wrong, or if his behaviour had crossed the line. I want my future relationships to be healthy...and I want to know when I am being mistreated, and when I am just in a fight. I have enormous difficulties trusting my instincts when it comes to these things. Your help/insight/advice would be greatly appreciated! I can provide more details if necessary.

Reciprocity may be a good cue for you to use. "Would it be OK if this happened to my neice?" "Would I be OK if someone said this to me?"

Also, goals -- do not do anything that won't get you to your goals. Goals for happiness are achieved in many different ways; shredding your partner to vent anger will not get you BOTH there.

Be nice to yourself. The most expensive thing in the world is regret.

[TigerL]

This is a great thread, MyOtherSelf, and you've gotten some good advice.

Similar to you, I have parents who don't communicate well and don't fight fair so I don't have a good close example but through observation, reading, friendships, and work, I've developed some skills that are helpful to me.

Anger is normal and OK but it's what you do with it that is important. I've noticed that my parents tend to be angry at a one thing but then displace their anger onto other people unfairly to diffuse the anger they have inside. They have no self-awareness of this although there are rare moments way after they're angry that they'll respond to my pointing this out. (Reading about Freud defense mechanisms helped me.)

This is childish and wrong to me. When I am angry or upset about something, I pause mentally and ask myself why I am feeling what I am feeling rather than choose someone or something to automatically lash out at. This usually serves me well; obviously there are still times when I argue and accuse people unfairly but I usually apologize afterwards. I am constantly working on my communication skills.

The Golden Rule and reciprocity are good ways to gauge if you are being treated fairly in a relationship. When I was younger, I had boyfriend who, while not at all abusive, would always be late for our dates without good reason. After a year or so of this, I decided that, despite all his other good traits, it just wasn't going to work out because I would not do the same thing to him and would not tolerate it in my friends.

I'm in the middle of a friendship that could turn into something more and what was refreshing to see was my friend's attitude towards conflict. For example, he was recently in a sticky situation that could be misconstrued as my fault but rather than blame me, he just went about solving it and telling me he recognized I had no control over the situation.

I know you're not the one with anger issues but reading about anger management has been useful to me.

[postem]

	Originally Posted by plotthickens To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	~not~ "Broke another one, eh genius?" (disrespect) ~not~ "I'm so clumsy and stupid." (disparagement & belittling) ~not~ "It's okay, we didn't NEED all of your grandmother's service, now, did we?" (passive aggressive) ~not~ "So ya don't like my grandmother's dishes?" (neither clear nor honest)

Wow i lived a lot around such behaviour, and my parents always blamed me for being over agressive and resentful. I actively hated all people for a lot of time until i realized it wasnt others fault, i needed to find my own ways, despsite all problems i had in life.
I got into alcoolism, and it was a infinite loop. Until i realized my fate was on my hands i suffered a lot.

Overcoming traumas usually is hard, because we develop coping mechanisms that sometimes are even more hurtful (like alcoolism). It is hard to look at abyss where our fears live, but this is the only way to trully overcome it.

There is not a perfect guide "How to have an healthy relationship", but i think it passes by having a great deal of respect for each other. Not trying to fight for small things, not trying to make the other an slave. I think its up to being responsible and have a sense on welfare. A lot of people stay on an over streched relationship that is just a ghost, and stay together just for money, lazyness and other reasons, and this will surely lead to more and more hate and suffering. Better being alone than on an horrible relationship.

[catzmeow]

	Originally Posted by MyOtherSelf To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I started seeing a Psy D (this is what my insurance covers) and at first, it was helpful, but now for some reason I don't feel so comfortable with it anymore. I am thinking about looking for a new one. I think I need to find one who is super duper smart...who I can't "trick." Not that I want to...but therapy just isn't as easy as I thought it would be.

You can do a lot of work, on your own, by journaling every day and keeping a record of what you are thinking and feeling, and learning to slow down your emotional responses to situations to determine what you are REALLY thinking and feeling. Make a goal of writing down the things that you observe in your daily life that are positives that you would like to see in your own life, visualizing what you want on paper. Write out your "lessons learned" as you observe yourself identifying negative situations and avoiding an emotional response.

If you aren't feeling comfortable or making progress with your current therapist, by all means, change. It can take a while to find a good fit, and yes, you need someone that you can't "trick" and who will be smart enough to call you on your b.s.
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---------- Post added 11-24-2009 at 04:11 PM ----------

Originally Posted by plotthickens To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I've been in a lot of relationships. What seems to work are these guidelines: At least one person must be willing to be 'the adult' at any given time. Both people must switch off on this or do it jointly. Communications must be frequent, clear and honest. This requires honesty of and to one's self first. The most important goals are happiness and harmony of all involved, both short AND long term. Each person must be willing to give more than they think is fair for the relationship to work. That is, in relationship math, 80% + 80% = 100%. All mistakes can be forgiven as long as they do not do irreparable harm. I will not tolerate disrespect of either of us, from either of us. Nor: disparagement, belittling, passive-aggressive comments, nor conversation that is not clear and honest. THIS not THIS "Dang, I broke that dish!" "Aw, that sucks. Did you hurt yourself? No shrapnel? Okay, I'll go get your shoes and a broom, don't move or you could cut your feet." ~not~ "Broke another one, eh genius?" (disrespect) ~not~ "I'm so clumsy and stupid." (disparagement & belittling) ~not~ "It's okay, we didn't NEED all of your grandmother's service, now, did we?" (passive aggressive) ~not~ "So ya don't like my grandmother's dishes?" (neither clear nor honest)

This is beautiful stuff. I don't know about some of the posters on the thread, but I heard all of the disrespectful, disparaging, and belittling comments when I was growing up, for years. It has taken me a long time to work through this stuff and learn to communicate in a healthy way, as a result.

I wish I'd been looking at this so thoughtfully when I was your age, Self.

[Avowed]

	Originally Posted by MyOtherSelf To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Where do you draw the line between behaviours you won't tolerate in your partner, and things that are mistakes and that can be forgiven?

Behaviors? That is pretty vague! The way situations should be handled will always be different depending on the social contexts, history of the people involved, and the consequences. I recommend reading up on conflict resolution. While this won't help you figure out where to place the lines, it will help you deal with the situation when it is crossed. If you have a particular behavior in mind, such as cheating or abuse, just ask.

	Originally Posted by MyOtherSelf To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	When does something turn from being an appropriate expression of anger to verbal abuse?

The line is when they stop being upset with the situation and start being upset with you. There is a big difference between, "Ugh, we are going to be late." And, "Hurry up! I'm sick of waiting for you all the time!" One is appropriately voicing displeasure, and the other is applying a common, unfortunate event to the entire relationship thereby, by the transitive property of negative comments, voicing displeasure with you. When one says, "I'm sick of waiting for you." The other person hears, "I'm sick of you." Never escalate an argument over situations to an argument over the relationship.

	Originally Posted by MyOtherSelf To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	At your worst and most frustrated point, what is the cruelest thing you have ever said to your partner, or what is the cruelest thing your partner has ever said to you? Were you/they forgiven?

I don't say cruel things to my partners and wouldn't tolerate it.

	Originally Posted by MyOtherSelf To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I want my future relationships to be healthy...

Making honest efforts in relationships is one of the most important aspects of relationships.

[Nikonman]

Originally Posted by plotthickens To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I've been in a lot of relationships. What seems to work are these guidelines: At least one person must be willing to be 'the adult' at any given time. Both people must switch off on this or do it jointly. Communications must be frequent, clear and honest. This requires honesty of and to one's self first. The most important goals are happiness and harmony of all involved, both short AND long term. Each person must be willing to give more than they think is fair for the relationship to work. That is, in relationship math, 80% + 80% = 100%. All mistakes can be forgiven as long as they do not do irreparable harm. I will not tolerate disrespect of either of us, from either of us. Nor: disparagement, belittling, passive-aggressive comments, nor conversation that is not clear and honest.

This is what I wanted to say, but better.

With my ex, fights seemed to always degrade. I would hard headedly argue facts and logic, which was not always the right thing to do, and my ex would counter with "F you" and such. There was a lack of mutual respect, to say the least. Her "F you" shouts and deeply personal attacks made me lose respect for her, and I lost her respect with my sarcasm. I grew up in a good home, but my family members used a lot of blunt sarcasm. When you did something stupid, they'd say something like "you know that was stupid, right?" That sarcastic type of banter was standard, and I picked it up. It took me years to figure out that it was damaging, and by the time I figured it out, the spouse and I had so alienated each other that years of trying to repair the damage could not come close to restoring mutual respect.

I've come to greatly value mutual respect. I think that it is a vital element for a healthy relationship. Clear, open and honest communication is also vital. We are not mind readers, we should not expect our partners to be. Express what you want, what you think and what you feel and then your partner at least has a chance of understanding you. Commitment is big, it helps you get past the rough spots without giving up on the relationship. Working together to accomplish goals is another sign of a healthy relationship. I'm sure there is much more to be said on this topic, but those are my major points this late in the evening.

[Lockeed]

In order for a healthy relationship to prosper I believe a lot hinges on communication.

In my experiences I have had a hard time actually trying to express myself in a clear and... precise manor. As a few people have already said, clear, open, and honest communication is very very important. Something that I found has helped me do this is part of something called Nonviolent Communication. Its a book, if you want, you can find it on amazon, but most of the read can be summarized into this:

Observations
Feelings
Needs
Requests

When trying to communicate something to your partner, instead of saying, "You are a dirty pig." (ok, extreme example, but you will get the point) you can first, observe, "I have noticed that the kitchen has a lot of unwashed pots and pans in it." Then state your feelings, "This makes me feel discouraged." Then the specific need you need addressed, "I need for the kitchen to be clean in order to relax" then, at least in this case, a request, "would you please clean it?"

For me just the fact that I think about those four ideas helps me figure out better and more precise ways to communicate with my partner when I am feeling stressed or angry (both indicators that you really need to actually stop and think! What needs of yours are not being met?)

So I hope this may help you with trying to establish a healthy relationship, it certainly has for me.

[Zsych]

Hmm... in theory, I would say a healthy relationship would be born of respect for one another and caring about the other person's well being. A mutual sharing that does not reach the point of becoming need for the other person.

[Bahama Mama]

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Where do you draw the line between behaviours you won't tolerate in your partner, and things that are mistakes and that can be forgiven? When does something turn from being an appropriate expression of anger to verbal abuse? At your worst and most frustrated point, what is the cruelest thing you have ever said to your partner, or what is the cruelest thing your partner has ever said to you? Were you/they forgiven? Yes, this topic is quite morbid. But I had such severe communication issues with my last boyfriend, and I still don't know if I was doing something wrong, or if his behaviour had crossed the line. I want my future relationships to be healthy...and I want to know when I am being mistreated, and when I am just in a fight. I have enormous difficulties trusting my instincts when it comes to these things. Your help/insight/advice would be greatly appreciated! I can provide more details if necessary.

Dr. John Gottman writes in his book, "The Relationship Cure" that there are four signs that show that you and your partner are communicating unhealthily. The first one is criticism. The example that he uses is a situation where one partner is telling their lover to take out the trash. The critical couple says, "Why don't you take out the trash already? God! YOU'RE such a pig." The healthy couple might say something like, "Babe, I've asked you several times to take out the trash already. Can you please take it out now? It is really smelling up the place." In the second one the partner is not making a negative statement about their partner to make them defensive which is where an argument would begin. There are three others...I think it would be worth looking into because those are good signs of UNHEALTHY relationships. It's much easier to determine what not to do and what to stay away from then to list all the good things to do first.

I really suggest to grab a copy of this book. He does a lot of studies with many differnet couples, and he really knows what hes talking about. Just by looking at a couple in a room discussing a disagreement for a few minutes he can tell if they will last or break up and if they do break up, in how long.

There are other lists i have come across...like "dirty fighting techniques". One of them is waiting for the right time to pick a fight with your partner. Watching every move your partner makes to collect ammo for a later fight. Using sex as a weapon. etc.

According to positive psychology too, it says that in a healthy relationship there should be 5 compliments for every negative remark. It might feel awkward at first, but trust me...compliments go a long way...even something so simple as..."those socks look really good on your feet."

Cheating is a symptom of an unhealthy relationship. I feel in some cases it is okay to forgive infidelity. If it seems as though the partner did it because you guys were fighting a lot for a few months and if your partner was honest about it, it seems forgivable. cheating is NOT okay if someone does it over and over again and is not honest about it. I will not tolorate being called curse words or being hit nor will i toloerate someone who does not appreciate me or show me he appreciates me.

Anger is a tricky one. I feel that with the right one loud arguments should only occur once or twice a year. When healthy partners are mad at each other they will take a break before things get too heated and come back together to talk things through. There is a much higher chance of getting the results each partner wants this way. Anger is not something that should be coming out often. Maybe annoyed, ticked off, pissed, or a little mad...never always angry, furious or constatnly frustrated.

The worst thing ive ever said to my partner...Well, i dont say things that will hit below the belt. Never. Neither has my partner done that to me either. If you are in a realtionship with someone, both of you are on the same team. If you punch your team mate in the stomach, it slows you down too...so why would you do that? But...when i was growing up my father was very abusive and he used to call my mother and I a 'c*nt' all the time and call us names and yell at us for doing things with others. Being jealous can really bring out a person's ugly side and make them say really mean things. Keep those things from coming out of your mouth. train yourself to not make them come into your head.