[rufsketch1]

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Frisco is heard on the tape instructing other elephant trainers to hurt the elephants until they scream, "holler," and run away; to use both hands to beat the elephants with a bullhook; and to sink the bullhook's metal spike into their flesh and twist it back and forth until they scream in pain. Says Frisco on the tape, "Sink that hook into 'em ... when you hear that screaming then you know you got their attention. ... Right here in the barn. You can't do it on the road. ... I'm not gonna touch her in front of a thousand people. ... She's gonna fucking do what I want and that's just fucking the way it is." Frisco can also be heard shouting, "I am the boss, I will kick your fucking ass," with regard to the elephants. Frisco is "still employed by Carson & Barnes." Footage of Tim Frisco's abusive training session can be viewed on PETA's web site Circuses.com. Sadly though, elephants are typically broken and made to fear their handlers by means of force. Ray Ryan, who worked with elephants at the San Diego Wild Animal Park, is now convinced that most elephant trainers use punishment to dominate elephants. In his book, Keepers of the Ark: An Elephant's View of Captivity, Ryan describes the attitude that persists among most elephant keepers: "How dare the elephants fight back when we ask them to do a certain behavior? They're on this planet to serve us in any way we see fit, and if any one of them chooses to do otherwise, he or she will pay the price." Bullhooks are routinely used by elephant trainers because, according to Veterinarian Sara Winikoff and other elephant experts, an elephant will not voluntarily perform difficult, physically strenuous and painful maneuvers many times a day on command. "No form of positive reinforcement alone will elicit these unnatural behaviors," says Winikoff. Jane Garrison, PETA's elephant specialist, agrees. As Garrison told the Today show host Katie Couric, when she appeared with Pacelle to discuss Ringling's treatment of animals, it's ridiculous to think that circuses are training animals with positive reinforcement. "If that were the case," said Garrison, "the trainers would be carrying a bag of food treats, not a bullhook..." In addition to Tim Frisco's violent beatings, PETA's investigator also videotaped a handler at Carson & Barnes Circus using a blowtorch on an elephant's skin to remove hair, and chained elephants and caged bears rocking and swinging their heads endlessly--the extreme stereotypic behavior caused by mental distress.

[Silverity]

I couldn't get past the 30-second line. Urgh. The lengths people go to for 'entertainment'.

[mrStevens]

So are the handlers mentally ill or are they acting based on socially accepted practices?

[Aronnax]

	Originally Posted by mrStevens To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	So are the handlers mentally ill or are they acting based on socially accepted practices?

Socially accepted practice; to get results from an elephant it has to be terrified of its handler. Elephants are highly intelligent and don't have a lot of patience for people messing around their feet. Elephants can easily kill handlers and won't bond to humans the way many other mammals will so fear is the primary instrument of control.

Elephants belong in India and Africa, not performing tricks at the circus.

[Tough Love]

I feel sick after reading that. I have never been to the Zoo or Circus (with animals) as my father refused to take us or let us go. Although i have been to hundreds of ''national parks'' where the animals are allowed to pretty much roam free (But im talking Aussie animals so yeh koala's and kangaroo's).

I remember asking my Dad for a budgie when i was a kid, and he sat me down and explained that birds arent meant to be kept in cages. I understood that at four....

[plotthickens]

Dolphins have their own language. We haven't decoded it yet, but they talk in recognizable semantic patterns.

Each pod has its own vernacular -- different families talk to each other with a less varied vocabulary. They also don't talk as well or as much.

When we take dolphins from the sea, we frequently match them with other dolphins who are not from the same family. If they are released, they may never find those who speak their own 'language' again.

Sick, mean, evil. Boycott.

[rara avis]

Vote with your dollar. Don't fund this kind of business.

Zoos and wildlife parks may fall on either side of the fence- many of them are protecting/preserving animals which would not have made it in the wild for whatever reason, or who were removed from where they belong for bad reasons but can't be rehabilitated. The zoo uses the opportunity for education, and the amusement factor funds the care of the animals.

Some of them, however, pay to have animals unnecessarily placed into captivity for no real reason besides profit.

Even in the best case scenarios, though, it just does not sit well in my gut to see an animal like a big cat held captive in a diorama for me to look at.

[rufsketch1]

Hmmm, I was a bit more interested in the psychology of the people willing to do this sort of thing, but it's been moved, so I guess there's nothing wrong with yet another ethics thread.

[PunkinA]

rufsketch, I don't see that you need to abandon your psychological approach. Even in the realm of ethics, the psychology of the actor is important.

The head trainer clearly has no hang-ups about causing an animal pain. At times he seems to revel in it. I have known a number of people in my life who were capable of enjoying hearing another animal squeal in pain. In every instance I can recall (anecdotal) the person willing to cause suffering had some abuse in their past. I don't see humans who are raised in a caring/nurturing environment as likely to derive pleasure out of whipping an animal.

I wonder how much of the audience would still pay to see the show if they were exposed to the experience of watching how the animals are trained? I suspect many spectators can separtae themselves mentally from the act of beating an elephant in order to allow themselves the sensation of entertainment.

It seems that causing abuse, and merely allowing someone else to perform abuse have different psychological qualities.

[Zodd]

Their is a reason why they hurt the elephants, if they don't hurt the elephants, the elephants won't learn and the show flops, causing circuspeople to go bankrupt and the elephant loses his home (will go to the zoo then or something but it will take the place of another elephant in line to go to the zoo).
I can't imagine how it would be fun to hurt an animal, I can only see is as a necessity.
The elephants maybe only gets hurt so much as a mother slaps her child, they have a skin even lions have trouble biting trough and weigh I don't know how much ton.

---------- Post added 11-27-2009 at 03:46 PM ----------

Their is this vid though of these Chinamen torturing a fox though, first 5 minutes they kick it and hit it with a stick while all they stand around it in a circle laughing. Then the skin it alive, laughing I think. I only saw one minute of it in total and don't know if I have the balls to watch more of it.
But this elephant vid could be totally different, totally professional.

[zibber]

Originally Posted by Zodd To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Their is a reason why they hurt the elephants, if they don't hurt the elephants, the elephants won't learn and the show flops, causing circuspeople to go bankrupt and the elephant loses his home (will go to the zoo then or something but it will take the place of another elephant in line to go to the zoo). I can't imagine how it would be fun to hurt an animal, I can only see is as a necessity. The elephants maybe only gets hurt so much as a mother slaps her child, they have a skin even lions have trouble biting trough and weigh I don't know how much ton.

That's total bunk. An elephant's natural habitat isn't exactly a circus cage.

How you're essentially justifying this bullshit is:

1) We've taken the elephant's natural habitat away (or taken it from its habitat).
2) The elephant now depends on humans for survival.
3) Humans can do whatever they deem "necessary" to the elephant.

I'm not dignifying the argument with a spelled out rebuttal. I'll just jot it down here and hope you come to an understanding of the many ways in which your justification is absurd.

[Zodd]

what does it matter what his natural habitat is? as long as it's happy it's good imo. I don't know if its happy or more happy by just looking at that vid and neither do any of you. Same thing with an animal depending on a human for survival.
Humans can do whatever they deem necessary yes, look they do it right there in the vid, I'm not condoning of it, but what if it is necessary?
Still think it's absurd?

[plotthickens]

	Originally Posted by Zodd To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	what does it matter what his natural habitat is? as long as it's happy it's good imo. I don't know if its happy or more happy by just looking at that vid and neither do any of you.

You're right. Do you think that an elephant who is being beaten to the point of screaming is more or less likely to be 'happy'?

[Zodd]

	Originally Posted by plotthickens To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	You're right. Do you think that an elephant who is being beaten to the point of screaming is more or less likely to be 'happy'?

No. But everybody screams sometimes, especially animals, life has it's ups and downs.
This is 3 minutes of the elephants lifetime.

[Elena]

	Originally Posted by Zodd To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	No. But everybody screams sometimes, especially animals, life has it's ups and downs. This is 3 minutes of the elephants lifetime.

But do you think it is correct to treat the elephant in that way?
Yes everyone has ups and down, but that sort (to the elephants) can be avoid not like our lifes.
Yes just 3minutes. Thats all it takes to be tramutized, I know that and if its recourring that it is damaging. I know that also. I dont think that is only 3minutes in the elephants life that is hurtful, this might be going for for years. Elephants form very close bonds with herd members and if they see another one is dying they stay with it and help it get up until it finally dies. These captive elephants are getting hurt themselves aswell as the other elephants.

---------- Post added 11-27-2009 at 12:01 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Zodd To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

---------- Post added 11-27-2009 at 03:46 PM ---------- Their is this vid though of these Chinamen torturing a fox though, first 5 minutes they kick it and hit it with a stick while all they stand around it in a circle laughing. Then the skin it alive, laughing I think. I only saw one minute of it in total and don't know if I have the balls to watch more of it. But this elephant vid could be totally different, totally professional.

Out of curiousty (and stupidly) I google in roughly what you said in key words.
I found the video I think and had to mute it.
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( Show Spoiler )

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I would never wear fur.

[rara avis]

Originally Posted by Zodd To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Their is a reason why they hurt the elephants, if they don't hurt the elephants, the elephants won't learn and the show flops, causing circuspeople to go bankrupt and the elephant loses his home (will go to the zoo then or something but it will take the place of another elephant in line to go to the zoo). I can't imagine how it would be fun to hurt an animal, I can only see is as a necessity. The elephants maybe only gets hurt so much as a mother slaps her child, they have a skin even lions have trouble biting trough and weigh I don't know how much ton.

There are many situations where it could be reasonably argued that causing pain or distress to another creature is a necessity. Entertainment is not one of those, IMO. The circus is entertainment. And if most of the people who pay to bring their children to see the amazing animals do cute tricks also really saw this part of things, the entertainment value would disappear. It's a dishonest product.

For my part, in terms of psychology, I tend to have an instant sort of empathy for animals- their distress is often my distress. I'd go to great lengths to avoid watching the video you're talking about- I don't even like hearing about it, I'll be thinking about that all day, now. I don't have this for people- sympathy, if I stop and think about it, but rarely empathy. I don't know why this is.

I wonder at people who can work in labs where injury and illness is caused to animals for the sake of research, scientific progress. If I thought I would cure someone of cancer or what-have-you by mutilating thousands of mice or rabbits, I'm sure I would brace myself and do it - but it would cause me a lot of personal damage to do so. So I suppose I should be glad that there are people who can do this for me, so I don't have to.

But still, I wonder at (and am kind of disturbed by) people who don't so much as flinch at injury to animals.

[plotthickens]

	Originally Posted by Zodd To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	No.

You just proved my point.

So you'd be OK with exchanging lives with the elephants? Because everyone has their ups and downs. Eyep. Sure.

[Elena]

Originally Posted by rara avis To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

There are many situations where it could be reasonably argued that causing pain or distress to another creature is a necessity. Entertainment is not one of those, IMO. The circus is entertainment. And if most of the people who pay to bring their children to see the amazing animals do cute tricks also really saw this part of things, the entertainment value would disappear. It's a dishonest product. For my part, in terms of psychology, I tend to have an instant sort of empathy for animals- their distress is often my distress. I'd go to great lengths to avoid watching the video you're talking about- I don't even like hearing about it, I'll be thinking about that all day, now. I don't have this for people- sympathy, if I stop and think about it, but rarely empathy. I don't know why this is. I wonder at people who can work in labs where injury and illness is caused to animals for the sake of research, scientific progress. If I thought I would cure someone of cancer or what-have-you by mutilating thousands of mice or rabbits, I'm sure I would brace myself and do it - but it would cause me a lot of personal damage to do so. So I suppose I should be glad that there are people who can do this for me, so I don't have to. But still, I wonder at (and am kind of disturbed by) people who don't so much as flinch at injury to animals.

Sorry for getting that in your head, but gee... the images will be in my sleep tonight. (I was stupid for clicking it)
I don't have sympathy for people either, hey I also find it interesting and sickend by people who don't mind inflicting pain on animals.

[Zodd]

Originally Posted by rara avis To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

There are many situations where it could be reasonably argued that causing pain or distress to another creature is a necessity. Entertainment is not one of those, IMO. The circus is entertainment. And if most of the people who pay to bring their children to see the amazing animals do cute tricks also really saw this part of things, the entertainment value would disappear. It's a dishonest product.

Yes arguing, not swinging your sword wildly. Would you rather have a dead elephant then a circus elephant, that's just what I'm getting at.

	Originally Posted by rara avis To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	For my part, in terms of psychology, I tend to have an instant sort of empathy for animals- their distress is often my distress.

I try to set those emotions away and see it isn't as painfull for the elephant as it first looked like. As I said, they have uberthick skin and way a lot, but yeah the sight of a man swinging a stick with full force isn't fun to watch.

Originally Posted by rara avis To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I wonder at people who can work in labs where injury and illness is caused to animals for the sake of research, scientific progress. If I thought I would cure someone of cancer or what-have-you by mutilating thousands of mice or rabbits, I'm sure I would brace myself and do it - but it would cause me a lot of personal damage to do so. So I suppose I should be glad that there are people who can do this for me, so I don't have to. But still, I wonder at (and am kind of disturbed by) people who don't so much as flinch at injury to animals.

Yeah, they are sacrificing the animals and theirselves (if they don't like hurting animals) for a greater cause. And in the case with the elephant, they might have even saved the elephant from somewhere, I don't know.

	Originally Posted by plotthickens To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	You just proved my point. So you'd be OK with exchanging lives with the elephants? Because everyone has their ups and downs. Eyep. Sure.

No. In the long run it might just be better for both the elephants, the circuspeople and the children who watch the show to teach them like that, it's just a possibity.

[Rudy]

	Originally Posted by Zodd To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Yeah, they are sacrificing the animals and theirselves (if they don't like hurting animals) for a greater cause. And in the case with the elephant, they might have even saved the elephant from somewhere, I don't know.

Please tell me that I'm misunderstanding you, and that you're not implying that circus tricks are similarly a "greater cause."

And a point of history to illustrate why your second sentence is morally invalid:

For long stretches of human history, people took enemies captured in wars and made slaves out of them. Sucks, but that's the way it was. Is, in someplaces.

Then, we grew up a tiny bit (still have a ways to go.) We started thinking about slavery and whatnot. A lot of people made the argument that taking slaves in this way was still okay because, hey, it was better than killing them, right? If one captured an enemy troop, they said, if you spared his life it was morally yours. A lot of people bought this argument, too.

That's what you're doing here; you're saying that the treatment of that elephant is okay, because they may have saved it from death.

Now, why are both of these arguments invalid? One reason is that they motive the capture/torture of humans/animals. In the first case, if one is allowed to take slaves from war, then one will make war specifically for the purpose of gaining slaves. If one is permitted to sell an Elephant to the circus, when the alternative is killing them, then it will encourage more and more to seek out Elephants to sell to the circus.

[Zodd]

"circuspeople making a living + less dead elephants + better circusshow > hurting elephants" might be true.

Maybe somewhere in Africa elephants are being hunted and some organisation (WWF or something dunno) takes them away from the hunted area but don't have a good place to put them, so thats where the circuspeople come in. So the elephants are warslaves to the human race in some way yes, but they are rescued from the hunters by the organisation and the circuspeople. It's the fault of the hunters but not the organisation and circuspeople.

[plotthickens]

Originally Posted by Zodd To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

"circuspeople making a living + less dead elephants + better circusshow > hurting elephants" might be true. Maybe somewhere in Africa elephants are being hunted and some organisation (WWF or something dunno) takes them away from the hunted area but don't have a good place to put them, so thats where the circuspeople come in. So the elephants are warslaves to the human race in some way yes, but they are rescued from the hunters by the organisation and the circuspeople. It's the fault of the hunters but not the organisation and circuspeople.

If they're hunted, they're dead.

If they're rescued, they're rehomed, put in reserves, or Zoos. The Circus is a torturous death trap for animal slaves.

To train an elephant, you must have it from infancy. This requires ripping it from its mother.

The training methods used consistently violate federal and international animal cruelty laws.

You have no idea what you're talking about, do you? Go educate yourself and then come back. Here, watch these videos of elephants getting stabbed, slapped, kicked, and abused. Then go watch any Nature special on them. Talk to you soon.


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[Zodd]

I just said it was a possibility. But if you want to stay biased, look at every vid with one view only thats your choice. Have fun watching your PETAvids.

[plotthickens]

	Originally Posted by Zodd To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I just said it was a possibility. But if you want to stay biased, look at every vid with one view only thats your choice. Have fun watching your PETAvids.

Point taken. So show me evidence that proves circus animals are treated ethically.

[Zodd]

I can't, neither can you prove all circus animals are treated unethically.
But maybe you've done your research on it and you know theres a great deal of wrongdoing in the circusbusiness to animal, I don't know much about it, I just said about what I could make out of that video.

Many animalorganisations love animals so much they try to brainwash people by showing all sorts of video's of animals being abused, also those stupid commercials btw. Playing on peoples emotions and their guilt. This is what makes people blind with hate and without doing deeper research they go saying some people are bad people and forcing their will to others.

---------- Post added 11-30-2009 at 02:02 AM ----------

	Originally Posted by Aronnax To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Elephants belong in India and Africa, not performing tricks at the circus.

We belonged in Africa, do we need to perform all this tricks in this society?