[Colette]

	Originally Posted by Lights To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	He is like prometheus on speed. It's hard to even argue with him because its just so much fun to watch.

And yet here you are, in full masochistic INFJ mode, keeping 'em all honest, day after day. Rather you than me, my friend
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Was it Shaw who said Democracy is the only system that is guaranteed to deliver to the people exactly the Government they deserve? Pretty spot on, whoever it was..

[Theodoric]

	Originally Posted by thod To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Who is the productive class? The planners, the engineers, the skilled worker, all these are left behind. Anyone that actually does anything is still here. The only one that has gone is the non productive. The guy that puts in 12 shifts making cars is not the leech, its the guy that sits in Bermuda with his trust fund that is the leech. You have got it all mixed up.

And then when the business owner, I mean the leech as you call him, decides that enough is enough and that he is sick of paying taxes and closes his business, moves it to China, and enjoys increased revenues by lowering his costs, those people in the productive class are now without a job. He is providing those producers with a job. He is operating the business so that it stays in business which those producers are unable to do.

All those producers are lacking many things such as the skills to operate a business and the capital to start a business. So now, without their former employer and no one willing to take them on because there skills are not in demand they go running to the government for help. Then the government decides to implement protectionist trade policies and increases taxes on the rich and corporations, and the whole cycle repeats itself. Unless you are advocating that the government decides to close off the borders and disallows people to leave the country while at the same time increasing tariffs on imported goods there is no way that increasing taxes will work. And increasing tariffs on imported goods only does one thing which is encourage other countries to adopt the same protectionist practices in turn, which will then further lower the markets in which products from the first government are reduced making it a completely closed society, unable to bring in revenue from outside sources and stagnating economically. Increasingly taxes on businesses has a similar adverse effect. At worst, this increased the costs of doing business which are then placed upon the consumer, which is usually the worker or producer as you call him. So now the consumer does not only have to shoulder the burden of the taxation that has been placed upon him, but also the burden of taxation that was placed upon the businesses he patronizes. However, at worst it leads to businesses fleeing their country to set up operations in countries that do not tax so heavily.

The precedent for people leaving countries for economic reasons, mainly tax reasons, has already been set. Denmark is already feeling this. Young Danes are leaving Denmark in record numbers, many of which were born and educated at the government's expense, have fled because of the obscenely high tax rates, sometimes reaching 68% of a persons income. These people are well educated, highly skilled, and would contribute significantly to the nations economy. However, due to the repressive, progressive tax system that the Danish government has instituted, these people that would have increased the economic well being of the country have fled to places that value them much more. And this shows the inherent flaw in wealth redistribution systems. The skilled workers with much to lose flee them, increasing the economic instability not only by reducing the workforce, but also putting more strain on the businesses to find highly skilled workers. It then sends a message to the rest of the populous that hard work is not rewarded and in demand skills are not valued. This in turn leads to economic stagnation, which then leads to increased unemployment and poverty.

[Lights]

Flat tax on household income and corporate profits.

Problem solved. The tax rate will be stable so businesses can prosper and won't flee and the government will get what it needs. Otherwise, businesses will just continue to run off to country after country in attempt to always find the lowest tax rate and that will keep tax rates too low to allow for effective government.

[Sylvanus]

	Originally Posted by Lights To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Flat tax on household income and corporate profits. Problem solved. The tax rate will be stable so businesses can prosper and won't flee and the government will get what it needs. Otherwise, businesses will just continue to run off to country after country in attempt to always find the lowest tax rate and that will keep tax rates too low to allow for effective government.

Or a
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. It encourages businesses to invest, workers to work, savers to save.

[Theodoric]

	Originally Posted by Lights To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Flat tax on household income and corporate profits. Problem solved. The tax rate will be stable so businesses can prosper and won't flee and the government will get what it needs. Otherwise, businesses will just continue to run off to country after country in attempt to always find the lowest tax rate and that will keep tax rates too low to allow for effective government.

Or we implement the Fair Tax. Either way, it solves the problems of increased taxation leading to the fleeing of highly skilled individuals and corporations.

[thod]

The problem is that lowering taxes will not stop business from fleeing. I can produce anything cheaper outside the US where everyone is rich. I can move my business anywhere in the world, fine, most of the world will work for $2 a day. This is not accpetable to Americans. They will not tolerate one car per town and a refrigerater per 5 houses. Thats the standard that Americans will have to live at if they are going to compete.

Anything that can be moved offshore or outsourced is being done so. Not because of taxes but because of labor costs. They could open up the borders and allow free for all immigration. That would bring down labor costs and keep the industry in the US. But such drastic falls in living standards with men on every street corner looking for work will bring the govenrment to its knees.

Perhaps you ask why the financial firms continue to cluster around Wall street despite it being the most expensive place to do business.

[Theodoric]

Originally Posted by thod To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

The problem is that lowering taxes will not stop business from fleeing. I can produce anything cheaper outside the US where everyone is rich. I can move my business anywhere in the world, fine, most of the world will work for $2 a day. This is not accpetable to Americans. They will not tolerate one car per town and a refrigerater per 5 houses. Thats the standard that Americans will have to live at if they are going to compete.

Americans need to learn several things. One, if your only skills are menial labor which anyone can do, you've already placed yourself outside of the market. Professional skills are in demand. Being able to lift something, not so much. There is little excuse for this since an education is freely available where you can learn and develop professional grade skills.

Two, the current high standard of living that many take for granted is grossly inflated. Americans expect a car for each spouse and then another car for their overprivileged kid. Americans aren't content with living in simple homes like they did decades ago. They need to live in sprawling McMansions, replete with all the modern conveniences and having 5 bedrooms and 3 baths for only 2-5 people. And this is mostly because Americans are fueled by jealousy and are not content because someone else has a thing they don't.

Three, American whine and complain that all the jobs are moving overseas. However, if we kept all our jobs in the country, then these Americans would further complain when faced with higher and higher prices for necessities. As individual incomes keep rising, prices keep rising. The only way to lower prices is to either outsource production or to automate. Either way, jobs are being lost. At least with outsourcing it stimulates the economies of other countries and creating new products, thereby allowing us to export our manufactured goods to them and creating more jobs.

	Originally Posted by thod To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Perhaps you ask why the financial firms continue to cluster around Wall street despite it being the most expensive place to do business.

Not really. No other place in the World offers the same diverse skills, connections, and financial resources. Malaysia has plenty of unskilled laborers that can sew a button on a shirt. However the number of investors, bankers, attorneys, and other professionals are relatively none. Its an expensive place to do business, but at the current time it is the only place that this business can be done.