INTJs and Playing Devil's Advocate

**Uytuun** · 02-19-2008, 02:40 PM

I've just had this discussion with a friend of mine and I noticed some interesting recurring dynamics.

*Since I acknowledge the validity of virtually all perspectives, my own opinion is so broad and nuanced that it can't really be called an opinion anymore.

*I'm reduced to trying to explain to people that their opinion is only one of many and automatically start playing devil's advocate.

*A result of this multi-facetted "opinion" and merely picking an opposing theory to defend for the sake of the discussion is that I can't argue with the same zeal some other people seem to be able to argue with.

*When I acknowledge that they have a point, they consider it "winning" the discussion.

I'm a there's no absolute truth, even the fact that there's no absolute truth is not absolute, a statement which is again not absolute etc. kind of girl. And even that's not absolute.
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Well, at least when I really start thinking.

I'm very bad at convincing people and people never really convince me of the superiority of their one theory.

Sound familiar?

**thod** · 02-19-2008, 02:47 PM

You should practice playing devils advocate. It is a skill and it hones your own thoughts on a subject when you take the opposite stance. Its fun too, try arguing for something you dont believe, say creationism, and just see the bigots come flocking who realy dont understand the position you normaly take.

The idea of these forums is not to win discussions but to learn. It may be an INTP thing. But if I lose I am still happy. I have learned about arguing that issue and obtained some new facts. Never be afraid to troll, trolling is the best way to get opinions out of people. I forget who it was that said if you want to find out what somebody realy thinks contradict them. If you are up against feminists advocate female slavery. If you are against socialists advocate libertarianism. You will rapidly be able to ascertain the mood of the thread and pick the trolling postion.

**Jgib5328** · 02-19-2008, 02:55 PM

I'm on my colleges debate team and have always loved debating and arguing. I always play the devil's advocate especially when my friends give me their opinion, even if I agree with it completely, I argue the opposing case for fun. I think it helps you develop yourself more intellectually and is just fun. I'm generally a better debater than most so I usually end up winning, but it is still fun (well winning usually is).

**aexis** · 02-19-2008, 02:55 PM

I'm a big fan of playing Devils Advocate. Not only is it fun, but it also often yields new insights into areas you'd not previously considered.

An ex-coworker of mine was a militant-vegan, feminist and enviro-cop. I'm sure you know the type. I had endless hours of fun debating reasons to not recycle, over-fishing, animal testing, and why eating meat is great.

Just don't be an asshole about it. I wasn't, and I'm still relatively good friends with her.

**Jgib5328** · 02-19-2008, 02:57 PM

lol, we all pretty much gave the same response within minutes. Maybe it really is an INTJ and maybe an INTX thing in general, seems like it.

**Kotetsu** · 02-19-2008, 03:11 PM

I enjoy taking the opposite view during debates where there is no discussion. I distinctly remember a devout anti-abortion teacher of mine take me outside after I gave a presentation discussing the causes and consequences of abortion in a positive light (we'd been asked to prepare a presentation conveying our views after reading an anti-abortion article, but since I didn't have any strong opinion on the matter I chose to pick the opposite side). I'm almost always the person to take the side that is not being supported (every class debate degenerates into the repeating of arguments for one side and universal agreement) and argue it. I wish more people could look at an issue and accept that there exist arguments for both sides and refrain from seeking to belittle and defeat those who bring up other viewpoints.

**Lucid** · 02-19-2008, 03:28 PM

I was raised in a family of lawyers. We've been lawyers for 3 or 4 generations now. Arguing is how we communicate. And while it can be tiring at times, it does sharpen one's mind, force one to consider alternate perspectives and to critically examine one's own positions in detail.
Also it's fun
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A friend of mine once asked me, "Why do you have to argue with everything? You're not going to change people's minds."

My response was that a conversation in which everyone was just agreeing with one another was supremely boring.

**ElstonGunn** · 02-19-2008, 04:37 PM

	Originally Posted by Lucid To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	A friend of mine once asked me, "Why do you have to argue with everything? You're not going to change people's minds."

You should have said, "Why did you tell me that? You're not going to change my mind."
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My guess is that the term "Devil's Advocate" wasn't created by an INTJ. I don't see anything demonic about it. I would have called it "A good way to test ideas and see if they're any good." What it lacks in snappiness, it more than makes up for in accuracy.

**ghyspran** · 02-19-2008, 05:00 PM

I'd agree that it probably wasn't an INTJ who came up with the term because i'd think most INTJs would consider that someone "playing the Devil's Advocate" is just a normal conversation and wouldn't need a special term

**Lucid** · 02-19-2008, 08:11 PM

	Originally Posted by ElstonGunn To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	You should have said, "Why did you tell me that? You're not going to change my mind." To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Good point. I will use that one next time!

**burazekun** · 02-19-2008, 09:08 PM

	Originally Posted by Uytuun To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I'm a there's no absolute truth, even the fact that there's no absolute truth is not absolute, a statement which is again not absolute etc. kind of girl. And even that's not absolute. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Well, at least when I really start thinking.

So you're not absolutely a girl?

Sorry had to pick that out of context, I dont mean to offend.

**coffeeloverfreak** · 02-19-2008, 09:42 PM

I play Devil's Advocate all the time. Sometimes it's just for the mental exercise. Sometimes it's just to piss off people who I find smug or annoying.

In any case, I find it excellent practice. Arguing something you wholeheartedly believe is rarely as strong as finding a rational argument for something you don't believe. Why? Because arguments you don't have to make to yourself will rarely be as strong. You'll fall into the trap of assuming that you're preaching to the choir, so to speak.

It's also a great way to open your mind to things you might not have considered before, or to better understand the point of view of your opponent. When you are forced to argue the opposing side, you can better anticipate its arguments, and form better counter-arguments.

**lordrrr** · 02-20-2008, 12:25 AM

I like to do it to piss people off and because I like to argue a lot (it's excellent practice for an up and coming defense attorney).

**Antares** · 02-20-2008, 01:14 AM

I find it fun to argue points that I don't really believe in, and often, when considering an issue, I consider both sides. I'm against racism, sexism and genocide, but I can argue for them any day, and people are usually appalled. They seem to think that just because I'm arguing for them, I really believe that; even if I clarify that my intention is for the sake of the argument. I can agree with their views completely, but picking them apart is just so much fun.

**Uytuun** · 02-20-2008, 02:33 AM


	So you're not absolutely a girl? Sorry had to pick that out of context, I dont mean to offend.

No, I'm not absolutely a girl that believes "there's no absolute truth, even the fact that there's no absolute truth is not absolute, a statement which is again not absolute etc." It referred to the entire preceding sentence.

**The Many** · 02-20-2008, 12:00 PM

	Originally Posted by Uytuun To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	No, I'm not absolutely a girl that believes "there's no absolute truth, even the fact that there's no absolute truth is not absolute, a statement which is again not absolute etc." It referred to the entire preceding sentence.

Your argument is actually a logical fallacy known as The Lier's Paradox - you even seem to be aware of its paradoxical nature but you still argue for it. Of course, you are right in that there is an element of subjectivity to understanding, but this does not at all mean that there is no such thing as an absolute truth. Not to imply I'm some sort of objectivist either, but there is truth, even though we can only observe it to various degrees.

As to playing the Devil's Advocate (which I suppose I am partially doing here - I apologize if the argument above came across in a somewhat blunt way, but I thought you might be interested in knowing), I despise it. Usually I don't get along very well with people who like to do it all the time either. Most often they seem to be pretty insecure and have to constantly prove themselves and how intelligent they are. Personally I usually don't enjoy arguing or discussing things, I have done it so many times already and I have have usually also thought through most of the points which will be brought forth from the opposition, which makes the entire discussion pretty tedious. I prefer getting drunk and joking around instead, and not to bother with serious discussion when serious discussion is too serious for the context.

**Uytuun** · 02-20-2008, 12:49 PM

What part of that post are you referring to? The sentence you quoted is slightly confusing (apologies) and I don't know what you read into it.

AFAIK I haven't been arguing for anything in this thread. I'm quite aware of the paradoxical nature of the claim.

**errrzarrr** · 02-20-2008, 03:28 PM

Playing Devil's Advocate is, at least, very funny. In fact, I am laughing while reading you because I remember things I did arguing with people.

Now i am going to play more the D's A.

**The Many** · 02-20-2008, 04:25 PM

	Originally Posted by Uytuun To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	What part of that post are you referring to? The sentence you quoted is slightly confusing (apologies) and I don't know what you read into it. AFAIK I haven't been arguing for anything in this thread. I'm quite aware of the paradoxical nature of the claim.

No worries. I referred to "there's no absolute truth, even the fact that there's no absolute truth is not absolute, a statement which is again not absolute etc."

That was the argument, and it is, as mentioned, a paradox. Hence I got confused as to why you are/were using it.

**pavman** · 02-20-2008, 04:50 PM

	Originally Posted by Uytuun To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I'm a there's no absolute truth ... kind of girl. And even that's not absolute. ... Well, at least when I really start thinking.

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Not to play Devil's advocate, but there is absolute truth.

1+1 = 2 is an absolute truth.
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Gravity is an absolute truth.
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Your existence is an absolute truth (well, while you exist, not sure about after... I wouldn't think so if you stopped existing, although this can lead us down all sorts of does she still exist if...roads, so I'll leave it there).

*waits for someone to pull some obscure mathematic-geek theorem on my a$$*

And for the record: I love Devil's advocate. And I am usually enthusiastic about it...but people don't tend to like me, so there's always a price! Almost no one ever admits I've won the argument; however, I've had friends say I was rather convincing, so I'm thinking I do tend to win, they just won't admit it...

I do admit that I tend to find flaws in my own arguments while making them, then sometimes supplying those flaws to my opponent....yes, I'm too dam nice.

**coffeeloverfreak** · 02-20-2008, 06:19 PM

Pavman:


	1+1 = 2 is an absolute truth.

No it's not. It's a convention. All mathematics is merely convention. Like rules of a game, we define math conventions because they're internally consistent, useful, and they work. But, as is especially evident in higher-level mathematics, there are infinite different ways of defining these conventions. We've simply picked ones that seem elegent or useful to us, or that people have become accustomed to. It's like how most people use PCs because they're compatible, but that doesn't make them any more "right" than Macs.


	Gravity is an absolute truth.

Again, no it's not. Even an intro physics student will be able to tell you that. Gravity only seems absolute on earth, but in the context of space, it is extremely relative.


	Your existence is an absolute truth.

Yeah? Prove it. I dare you.

**lordrrr** · 02-20-2008, 06:24 PM

I agree with coffee I believe we can never be 100% positive with anything, but we can be like really close like 99.999999999% positive.

**coffeeloverfreak** · 02-20-2008, 06:32 PM

It's all about defining the frame of reference. We can be close to 100% positive that something works in close to 100% of the cases within our frame of reference. But we're taking certain things as a given.

For instance, most of what we "know" about natural sciences applies only to our world; we're holding certain things like gravity, general climate and polar magnetic fields constant.

If we were to try to get at something "absolute", it would have to be true in any possible situation. It's precisely our lack of ability to define limits by defining a frame of reference that makes the concept of absolute truth such a difficult one to fathom.

**MNRon** · 02-20-2008, 06:38 PM

	Originally Posted by lordrrr To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I like to do it to piss people off

That goes over so well with jurors
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**Provoker** · 02-20-2008, 07:11 PM

I find that playing devil's advocate sharpens me and strengthens my procedural intelligence. However, many people take it to extreme levels and get so caught up with being right rather than doing right. To the devil's advocate, it's just a game. But to a person who has been exploited, or had genocide committed against their people or anything serious, it's not a game and it can be rather cruel to play devil's advocate (when you don't even believe in what you're saying) in this sort of context. Moreover, most people play devil's advocate with the motivation of attaining a higher level of truth, but they become spineless in the process when they become habituated to criticizing and detstroying the opinions of others and offering nothing edifying or constructive themselves. In this respect, Socrates is a perfect decadent as he lived like a parasite who criticized the beliefs of others while offering nothing constructive himself.

At the end of the day, even the devil's advocate must work, eat, live, and exist in society, and there will be definitive interests despite arguing (in vain) in favor of opposing interests. When this occurs, the d.a. becomes mcdonalized or what I prefer to call 'paper mache' - maybe that's the truth they're after?

02-19-2008, 02:40 PM	#1
Uytuun Member [26%] MBTI: INTj Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,062	I've just had this discussion with a friend of mine and I noticed some interesting recurring dynamics. Since I acknowledge the validity of virtually all perspectives, my own opinion is so broad and nuanced that it can't really be called an opinion anymore. I'm reduced to trying to explain to people that their opinion is only one of many and automatically start playing devil's advocate. A result of this multi-facetted "opinion" and merely picking an opposing theory to defend for the sake of the discussion is that I can't argue with the same zeal some other people seem to be able to argue with. When I acknowledge that they have a point, they consider it "winning" the discussion. I'm a there's no absolute truth, even the fact that there's no absolute truth is not absolute, a statement which is again not absolute etc. kind of girl. And even that's not absolute. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Well, at least when I really start thinking. I'm very bad at convincing people and people never really convince me of the superiority of their one theory. Sound familiar?
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02-19-2008, 02:47 PM	#2
thod Core Member [163%] MBTI: INTP Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 6,526	You should practice playing devils advocate. It is a skill and it hones your own thoughts on a subject when you take the opposite stance. Its fun too, try arguing for something you dont believe, say creationism, and just see the bigots come flocking who realy dont understand the position you normaly take. The idea of these forums is not to win discussions but to learn. It may be an INTP thing. But if I lose I am still happy. I have learned about arguing that issue and obtained some new facts. Never be afraid to troll, trolling is the best way to get opinions out of people. I forget who it was that said if you want to find out what somebody realy thinks contradict them. If you are up against feminists advocate female slavery. If you are against socialists advocate libertarianism. You will rapidly be able to ascertain the mood of the thread and pick the trolling postion.
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02-19-2008, 02:55 PM	#3
Jgib5328 Member [47%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 1,896	I'm on my colleges debate team and have always loved debating and arguing. I always play the devil's advocate especially when my friends give me their opinion, even if I agree with it completely, I argue the opposing case for fun. I think it helps you develop yourself more intellectually and is just fun. I'm generally a better debater than most so I usually end up winning, but it is still fun (well winning usually is).
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02-19-2008, 02:55 PM	#4
aexis New Member [01%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 41	I'm a big fan of playing Devils Advocate. Not only is it fun, but it also often yields new insights into areas you'd not previously considered. An ex-coworker of mine was a militant-vegan, feminist and enviro-cop. I'm sure you know the type. I had endless hours of fun debating reasons to not recycle, over-fishing, animal testing, and why eating meat is great. Just don't be an asshole about it. I wasn't, and I'm still relatively good friends with her.
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02-19-2008, 02:57 PM	#5
Jgib5328 Member [47%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 1,896	lol, we all pretty much gave the same response within minutes. Maybe it really is an INTJ and maybe an INTX thing in general, seems like it.
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02-19-2008, 03:11 PM	#6
Kotetsu Member [03%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 140	I enjoy taking the opposite view during debates where there is no discussion. I distinctly remember a devout anti-abortion teacher of mine take me outside after I gave a presentation discussing the causes and consequences of abortion in a positive light (we'd been asked to prepare a presentation conveying our views after reading an anti-abortion article, but since I didn't have any strong opinion on the matter I chose to pick the opposite side). I'm almost always the person to take the side that is not being supported (every class debate degenerates into the repeating of arguments for one side and universal agreement) and argue it. I wish more people could look at an issue and accept that there exist arguments for both sides and refrain from seeking to belittle and defeat those who bring up other viewpoints.
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02-19-2008, 03:28 PM	#7
Lucid Core Member [147%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 5,900	I was raised in a family of lawyers. We've been lawyers for 3 or 4 generations now. Arguing is how we communicate. And while it can be tiring at times, it does sharpen one's mind, force one to consider alternate perspectives and to critically examine one's own positions in detail. Also it's fun To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. A friend of mine once asked me, "Why do you have to argue with everything? You're not going to change people's minds." My response was that a conversation in which everyone was just agreeing with one another was supremely boring.
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02-19-2008, 05:00 PM	#9
ghyspran New Member [01%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 11	I'd agree that it probably wasn't an INTJ who came up with the term because i'd think most INTJs would consider that someone "playing the Devil's Advocate" is just a normal conversation and wouldn't need a special term
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02-19-2008, 09:42 PM	#12
coffeeloverfreak Member [09%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 391	I play Devil's Advocate all the time. Sometimes it's just for the mental exercise. Sometimes it's just to piss off people who I find smug or annoying. In any case, I find it excellent practice. Arguing something you wholeheartedly believe is rarely as strong as finding a rational argument for something you don't believe. Why? Because arguments you don't have to make to yourself will rarely be as strong. You'll fall into the trap of assuming that you're preaching to the choir, so to speak. It's also a great way to open your mind to things you might not have considered before, or to better understand the point of view of your opponent. When you are forced to argue the opposing side, you can better anticipate its arguments, and form better counter-arguments.
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02-20-2008, 12:25 AM	#13
lordrrr Banned MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 723	I like to do it to piss people off and because I like to argue a lot (it's excellent practice for an up and coming defense attorney).
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02-20-2008, 01:14 AM	#14
Antares Core Member [170%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 6,827	I find it fun to argue points that I don't really believe in, and often, when considering an issue, I consider both sides. I'm against racism, sexism and genocide, but I can argue for them any day, and people are usually appalled. They seem to think that just because I'm arguing for them, I really believe that; even if I clarify that my intention is for the sake of the argument. I can agree with their views completely, but picking them apart is just so much fun.
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02-20-2008, 12:49 PM	#17
Uytuun Member [26%] MBTI: INTj Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,062	What part of that post are you referring to? The sentence you quoted is slightly confusing (apologies) and I don't know what you read into it. AFAIK I haven't been arguing for anything in this thread. I'm quite aware of the paradoxical nature of the claim.
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02-20-2008, 03:28 PM	#18
errrzarrr Member [15%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 612	Playing Devil's Advocate is, at least, very funny. In fact, I am laughing while reading you because I remember things I did arguing with people. Now i am going to play more the D's A.
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02-20-2008, 06:24 PM	#22
lordrrr Banned MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 723	I agree with coffee I believe we can never be 100% positive with anything, but we can be like really close like 99.999999999% positive.
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02-20-2008, 06:32 PM	#23
coffeeloverfreak Member [09%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 391	It's all about defining the frame of reference. We can be close to 100% positive that something works in close to 100% of the cases within our frame of reference. But we're taking certain things as a given. For instance, most of what we "know" about natural sciences applies only to our world; we're holding certain things like gravity, general climate and polar magnetic fields constant. If we were to try to get at something "absolute", it would have to be true in any possible situation. It's precisely our lack of ability to define limits by defining a frame of reference that makes the concept of absolute truth such a difficult one to fathom.
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02-20-2008, 07:11 PM	#25
Provoker Banned MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 198	I find that playing devil's advocate sharpens me and strengthens my procedural intelligence. However, many people take it to extreme levels and get so caught up with being right rather than doing right. To the devil's advocate, it's just a game. But to a person who has been exploited, or had genocide committed against their people or anything serious, it's not a game and it can be rather cruel to play devil's advocate (when you don't even believe in what you're saying) in this sort of context. Moreover, most people play devil's advocate with the motivation of attaining a higher level of truth, but they become spineless in the process when they become habituated to criticizing and detstroying the opinions of others and offering nothing edifying or constructive themselves. In this respect, Socrates is a perfect decadent as he lived like a parasite who criticized the beliefs of others while offering nothing constructive himself. At the end of the day, even the devil's advocate must work, eat, live, and exist in society, and there will be definitive interests despite arguing (in vain) in favor of opposing interests. When this occurs, the d.a. becomes mcdonalized or what I prefer to call 'paper mache' - maybe that's the truth they're after?
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