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INTJ-ESTJ Relationships intj and estj
Old 10-24-2009, 03:58 AM   #1
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Hi all,

What's your thoughts on INTJ-ESTJ relationships?

Are there any INTJs who are in, or have been in ESTJ, relationships? How did they work out?

I've met this one ESTJ and I was shocked to discover that a lot of the assumptions I had about ESTJs did not seem to apply in her case.

She hates people who are closed minded and think only they know the answer. She's not especially religious. When I said that I'm not very traditional and don't care much for doing "what's socially expected", she seemed quite accepting of the whole thing. She didn't seem to be highly traditional, status conscious or "I let society do the thinking for me" at all.

I'm still in the process of figuring out how I feel about all this. There was a time I would have said that I would not have ever considered an SJ for a relationship, that I would only consider a fellow Intuitive - especially an NF.

But to my surprise, a lot of intuitives/NFs I've approached simply have not been interested in me. I know everyone is an individual so not every intuitive would dig me, but I found it striking that I couldn't capture the attention of a single intuitive. It made me think... perhaps other intuitives simply do not put the same premium on pairing with another intuitive as I do? That perhaps I'm being far too theory-based with respect to finding someone?

I guess my one fear is that an SJ would not enjoy talking about their inner world the way I do. But maybe establishing that level of intimacy is a challenge all relationships face and is not related to type?

I don't know. What do the rest of you think about ESTJ-INTJ pairings? Was there much intellectual and emotional depth? Is my concern about the S/N divide in an ESTJ-INTJ relationship overstated and out of proportion?

Appreciate any thoughts. Would also be interested in hearing the thoughts of any other iNtuitives who've had, or are in, relationships with Sensors.
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Old 10-24-2009, 04:30 AM   #2
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How are you sure she is an ESTJ? Did she test herself more then once? Did you ask questions about how she processes things? (Just checking)

I find it amusing that an ESTJ likes me at the moment. I was curious about him at first until I learned he was quite religious. ._. I don't find him imitating and he actually was surprised by that. So far our conversations are quite fine. Despite being religious or jarred by some off-hand talk about religion he's open to other life styles. I think SJs might get more rigid as life goes on though (confirmation bias). I've noticed from the posts around the forum, most INTJs are fine with friendships with ESTJs not necessarily romantic ones; however, everyone is different. Must remember that.

I'm wondering how to break it to this ESTJ gently I have no interest in him. Yes, I was curious, but umm yeah. ._. Do ESTJs appreciate bluntness? Hmm...

Plus he scares me with his 'must fix' everything and 'help' everyone OCD. O_O I swear the extraverts I've come across have no sense of personal space. They don't believe in 'bubbles'.
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Old 10-24-2009, 04:38 AM   #3
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  Originally Posted by Amphorian
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How are you sure she is an ESTJ? Did she test herself more then once? Did you ask questions about how she processes things? (Just checking)

No, it's a valid question.

I don't know for sure. I'm still in the process of getting to know this person.

So why do I believe she's an ESTJ then? I mentioned MBTI during one of our conversations and she said she took a test at work which suggested her was ESTJ and she thought the ESTJ description matched her quite well.

I know. Don't say it. MBTI tests are notoriously unreliable. Believe me, if I had a dollar for every new person to MBTI that I said that to I'd be a millionaire. But her telling me she's an ESTJ is a starting point.

It could be that she's a different type but so far I'd consider that unlikely. From a purely empirical perspective, based upon my observations of her behaviour, I'd tentatively type her as E??J. So her being ESTJ is not far fetched. And when I speak with her, she does seem to be more concrete than abstract.

To be honest, in a lot of respects I'm not a stereotypical INTJ either. I've always tested INTJ and the character description matches me quite closely, however I have done a lot of work to embrace my emotions and I'm not afraid to show them. To some people, they might consider me to an unusually emotional INTJ or borderline NT/NF. But that wouldn't be accurate. I'm an INTJ who has just done a lot of work on himself and evolved from the "Dr Spock" mentality of believing that feelings are a corrupting influence and need to be completely subjugated by thinking.

Maybe I'm being a little too vanilla in my assumptions about ESTJs and their ability to share their inner world and relate to my inner world?
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Old 10-24-2009, 10:15 AM   #4
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Well I had an ESTJ friend who fitted the description so well it has disturbing lol. Anyway we got on rather well . He was rather honest and straight with what he wanted from a situation and was as self-confident as myself in everything he did. We rarely disagreed on any decision like where to go eat or what to do next.

Now the bad side...concepts. ESTJs aren't good with concepts from what I've gathered. They also have big trouble seeing things from the way an N would see things. They usually use facts as a foundation and use logic to build on those facts to get some kind of idea of what an N may have thought up. They're also insanely externally confident and cocky.

Have course that's just one experience.

When it comes to MBTI testing, it can be 100% correct and 0% correct. It all depends on how honest you're being. Most of my friends were typed accuratly on the first try and we all validated that the way we percieved eachother matched the descriptions.
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Old 10-24-2009, 12:46 PM   #5
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  Originally Posted by INTJDownUnder
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Maybe I'm being a little too vanilla in my assumptions about ESTJs and their ability to share their inner world and relate to my inner world?
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We all have an inner world. Hers is Si instead of your Ni. You share Te so that helps with communication. All the stereotypes about S types are just that, stereotypes and don't apply in one on one situations.

My husband has Si and I don't find it hard to relate to him at all. The step by step approach of Si is straightforward and easy for me to understand. I know exactly where I stand. My J (Te) finds that much easier to deal with than very strong Ne which bounces all over the place and is full of uncertainty.

We all have different needs and wants in a relationship and MBTI type only makes up a small part of our character. Attraction and matching up values are way more important. Using MBTI to help understand someone or figure out the best way to communicate is useful, using it to screen possible partners isn't.

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Old 10-24-2009, 01:52 PM   #6
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This is an convenient thread. I've been having some issues with an ESTJ.

We met almost three months ago when word got around that me and my roommate's dorm is a video game haven. While he invades everyone's personal space and is generally afficationate, after a few gaming nights he seemed to start focusing more on me. Now he says things like "when we're married" in a lighthearted manner and initiates physical contact whenever possible. What bothers me is that I don't know if he's doing this because he realized it throws me off balance and finds it amusing? Or if he does like me? Or a little of both?

On a non-derailing note, I got one of my friends from highschool take the MBTI and he got ESTJ. We act like siblings; we'll get on each other's nerves but are always there when the other needs someone.
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Old 10-24-2009, 08:50 PM   #7
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  Originally Posted by Murky Muse
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Now he says things like "when we're married" in a lighthearted manner and initiates physical contact whenever possible. What bothers me is that I don't know if he's doing this because he realized it throws me off balance and finds it amusing? Or if he does like me? Or a little of both?

I'd just confront him to clear the air. E.g. "You always make this joke about us getting married. Do you like me?". Get it out into the open where you can deal with it.

If he denies liking you, then put it back onto him "So why do you keep joking about us getting married then?". If he says he likes you, then you can say whether or not you like him and put an end to the jokes.

If you deal with things directly, it's like you're giving people permission to speak about things they're holding back on. And even if he doesn't take advantage of your offer to get whatever's bothering him off his chest, he's far less likely to make that "we're married joke" again.

If he does, just remind him "Hey [insert name], didn't we already talk about this?" etc.

Easy peasy. The hard part is making the decision to confront in the first place. But it gets easier after that.





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  Originally Posted by Synamon
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We all have an inner world. Hers is Si instead of your Ni. You share Te so that helps with communication. All the stereotypes about S types are just that, stereotypes and don't apply in one on one situations.

My husband has Si and I don't find it hard to relate to him at all. The step by step approach of Si is straightforward and easy for me to understand. I know exactly where I stand. My J (Te) finds that much easier to deal with than very strong Ne which bounces all over the place and is full of uncertainty.

We all have different needs and wants in a relationship and MBTI type only makes up a small part of our character. Attraction and matching up values are way more important. Using MBTI to help understand someone or figure out the best way to communicate is useful, using it to screen possible partners isn't.

Thanks Synamon. I really value your insight. Particularly your comment about understand rather than to screen.

Out of curiosity, what type is your hubby?

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Old 10-24-2009, 11:56 PM   #8
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  Originally Posted by INTJDownUnder
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Hi all,

What's your thoughts on INTJ-ESTJ relationships?

Are there any INTJs who are in, or have been in ESTJ, relationships? How did they work out?

I've met this one ESTJ and I was shocked to discover that a lot of the assumptions I had about ESTJs did not seem to apply in her case.

She hates people who are closed minded and think only they know the answer. She's not especially religious. When I said that I'm not very traditional and don't care much for doing "what's socially expected", she seemed quite accepting of the whole thing. She didn't seem to be highly traditional, status conscious or "I let society do the thinking for me" at all.

I'm still in the process of figuring out how I feel about all this. There was a time I would have said that I would not have ever considered an SJ for a relationship, that I would only consider a fellow Intuitive - especially an NF.

But to my surprise, a lot of intuitives/NFs I've approached simply have not been interested in me. I know everyone is an individual so not every intuitive would dig me, but I found it striking that I couldn't capture the attention of a single intuitive. It made me think... perhaps other intuitives simply do not put the same premium on pairing with another intuitive as I do? That perhaps I'm being far too theory-based with respect to finding someone?

I guess my one fear is that an SJ would not enjoy talking about their inner world the way I do. But maybe establishing that level of intimacy is a challenge all relationships face and is not related to type?

I don't know. What do the rest of you think about ESTJ-INTJ pairings? Was there much intellectual and emotional depth? Is my concern about the S/N divide in an ESTJ-INTJ relationship overstated and out of proportion?

Appreciate any thoughts. Would also be interested in hearing the thoughts of any other iNtuitives who've had, or are in, relationships with Sensors.


I am borderline between ESTJ and ESFJ, more on the side of T. I am currently in a bit of a mess with my INTJ man, but mainly due to a lot of stress externally that put strained our relationship, and poor communication on my part.
I really appreciate that he's very direct with me. I DO tend to be rigid, however I never think that anything is the end all answer and am always open to new information, ideas, and ways of doing things. I don't like society's norm, and dance to the beat of my own drum.
I have very intense emotion ranging from the bedroom to my artwork, and I love debating theories on good and evil, whether our country was founded as a republic or a democracy, and so on.
I think that the MBTI has less to do with stereotypes and more how you process things. Yes, I do tend to be rooted in down to earth facts and details and less on abstract theories. I like things I can see and believe in. But I can also discuss abstract concepts of what could be.
I am trying to learn my INTJ better, and I think open communication can bridge any gap personally.
The biggest difference that causes friction is our polarity of needs. I need lots of emotional/physical connection, he needs very little. If we patch things here soon, I hope to find ways of working on this so neither of us is feeling abandoned or smothered.

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Old 10-26-2009, 01:06 AM   #9
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I have an ESTJ friend whom I enjoy socializing with. He was originally my boss. It took over a year of interaction before we understood each others communication style. The MBTI profile would have helped tremendously, but I wasn't familiar with it back then.

It's the classic case of the independent thinker vs the defender of the establishment. We had a clash of values, to say the least.

What I've come to learn was that he is can be quite open minded and will accept new ideas as long as concrete proof is provided. In fact, a single demonstration is usually enough. Without the concrete proof, he will come across as being rigid and uncompromising. That was the key to his heart and mind.

That's why I find it surprising that romance could develop between the two types. The initial clash will often drive the pair apart before deeper understandings and respect develops.
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Old 10-27-2009, 09:36 PM   #10
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  Originally Posted by INTJDownUnder
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I'd just confront him to clear the air. E.g. "You always make this joke about us getting married. Do you like me?". Get it out into the open where you can deal with it.

If he denies liking you, then put it back onto him "So why do you keep joking about us getting married then?". If he says he likes you, then you can say whether or not you like him and put an end to the jokes.

If you deal with things directly, it's like you're giving people permission to speak about things they're holding back on. And even if he doesn't take advantage of your offer to get whatever's bothering him off his chest, he's far less likely to make that "we're married joke" again.

If he does, just remind him "Hey [insert name], didn't we already talk about this?" etc.

Easy peasy. The hard part is making the decision to confront in the first place. But it gets easier after that.

I had come close to questioning him about it a few times, but decided against it right before I said anything. I finally did bring it up and told him it confused me because I didn't know what he meant by it. While he didn't tell me why, he hasn't done it since.

Of course, now I'm worried I made him feel awkward because...actually, I don't know because while he's backed off, he hasn't been distant or anything. I'm probably just overanalyzing the situation.

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Old 10-28-2009, 07:12 AM   #11
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  Originally Posted by Murky Muse
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I had come close to questioning him about it a few times, but decided against it right before I said anything. I finally did bring it up and told him it confused me because I didn't know what he meant by it. While he didn't tell me why, he hasn't done it since.

Of course, now I'm worried I made him feel awkward because...actually, I don't know because while he's backed off, he hasn't been distant or anything. I'm probably just overanalyzing the situation.

Why so quick to doubt yourself?

You said you felt confused by those comments of his. That's the way you felt. The way you feel does not need to be justified. The way you feel just is.

I think you did excellent. Something was bothering you and you raised it in a constructive manner. His decision not to take you up on your offer to talk about his joke has absolutely nothing to do with you and everything to do with him. He had his reasons and he chose not share them at that point in time. He might explain in the future. Who knows. Whether he does explain or not is unimportant.

The fact that he stopped with the joke means that he is respecting your boundary - which you made clear earlier: either explain the joke or knock it off.

Don't feel guilty because the guy didn't respond with cheers and smiles. For all you know he might feel perfectly OK. You can't control other people's reactions, so don't think his reaction has anything to do with you. To assume you can control other people's reactions and feel guilty about it assumes you're a lot more powerful than you really are (NB: no one is that powerful. Not even Hitler).

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Old 10-28-2009, 07:24 AM   #12
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I've had experiences with several ESTJs; I'd been madly infatuated with one, and I think he is on the whole an admirable character and a hard worker; I'm very appreciative of another; she's gregarious, humorous and open-minded. I can't stand to be in the same room with one in particular; she's gregarious, alright, but she also fancies herself to be above everyone. She gossips shamelessly (broadcasting her own relationship troubles to the whole class, no less); she sucks up to you when she thinks she needs you and insults you the instant she doesn't. I find that it works better when you ask "how do I interact with (insert name here)" than "do INTJ-ESTJ relationships work". Analyze the implications of MBTI with regards to her individuality, not the ESTJ stereotype.
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Old 10-28-2009, 07:26 AM   #13
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  Originally Posted by Antares
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I find that it works better when you ask "how do I interact with (insert name here)" than "do INTJ-ESTJ relationships work". Analyze the implications of MBTI with regards to her individuality, not the ESTJ stereotype.

Thanks Antares, that is good advice.

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Old 01-01-2010, 12:29 AM   #14
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I have a very close friend which is ESTJ. For the first year we've saw each other (not dated, just saw, at school) we used to fight all the time. Once in a while we even spent a couple of months without talking to each other.

After several years several people that are actually more like me then her are gone and we still see each other very often, even though we went to different universities.

I believe that what happened to us is that we fought so much that we learned why and when it happens. Since we don't want to fight and we know each other so well, when one senses that the other is going through that path, this one just finds a way to slip out of it.

Despite of that, I think that our (friendly) relationship works because we have separate lives; that way we only need to respect each other's choice. If we dated each other or closer then that, our lives would start mixing together and our choices would have greater impact on the other. If that happened I believe that we would start fighting again.

---------- Post added 01-01-2010 at 03:32 AM ----------

  Originally Posted by Antares
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She gossips shamelessly (broadcasting her own relationship troubles to the whole class, no less); she sucks up to you when she thinks she needs you and insults you the instant she doesn't.

It seems like the behavior of an SP (concrete utilitarian), not an SJ (concrete cooperative).

---------- Post added 01-01-2010 at 03:40 AM ----------

  Originally Posted by Blues69
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When it comes to MBTI testing, it can be 100% correct and 0% correct. It all depends on how honest you're being.

It also depends on how much do you know yourself. Since N's have a more active inner world, I suppose they probably know themselves better then S types.

Since SJs work well with hierarchies, I assume that they'll probably shape themselves to be more alike what their parents, priest or whoever they think that is their superior tells them it's the right way to be.

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Old 01-01-2010, 01:47 AM   #15
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It seems that not many people in this forum pay attential to socionics. I think they are spot on about intertype relations.

If you can enjoy long and interesting converstions with her then I would doubt that she is ESTJ.
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Old 01-01-2010, 07:45 AM   #16
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  Originally Posted by Zelder
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It seems that not many people in this forum pay attential to socionics. I think they are spot on about intertype relations.

If you can enjoy long and interesting converstions with her then I would doubt that she is ESTJ.

I used to think that way but I now think I was being too black and white. Personality theory is based upon generalisations which are only true most of the time. They're not like laws of physics.

I've met NT personality types whom I found boring and uninteresting. I suppose it's inevitable that I encountered an ESTJ whom I found interesting to talk to.

The conversation did have a slightly different feel to it, however it was still quite interesting.

---------- Post added 01-01-2010 at 11:54 PM ----------

Plus the other thing I was shocked to discover was that other iNtuitives types do not place the same premium on N-N matching as I did/do.

You pick up most typing theory textbooks and they prattle on about the importance of type pairing and how it explains everything about dating.

Imagine my surprise when I discovered a lot of iNtuitive women simply cared less than two hoots that I was a fellow iNtuitive (which would have been evident from the way I spoke about myself and my interests)? Now, maybe that was just a case of the individual woman not being interested in me. But the sample size was large enough for me to start doubting the validity of the whole type pairing theory (e.g. N-N or any other grouping).

I think if you're a student of type theory as I am/was, you can fall in love with the theory and selectively view reality to find supporting evidence. My experience is that when people pair up, it's a lot more complex than simply personality type.

I've learnt that I can't just theorise the world away in a vain hope to understand it. The problem with theory is that it is limited by our imagination. I'm much more grey when it comes to personality typing than I used to be. I still rely on it, but if I see big contractions it doesn't bother me.

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Old 01-01-2010, 06:45 PM   #17
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  Originally Posted by Zelder
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It seems that not many people in this forum pay attential to socionics. I think they are spot on about intertype relations.

If you can enjoy long and interesting converstions with her then I would doubt that she is ESTJ.

Zelder,

It's just that it's way easier to verify scientifically the personalities alone then the relationship between people. In his book, "Please Understand Me", Dr. Keirsey cites his field work in order to test and create stronger categorizations on top of MBTI types.

If you're studying people relationships there are 256 (16x16) possible combination of types to examine, which makes it harder. Also, there is a lot of noise introduced in this kind of analysis, since how people relate to each other has other components beyond personality. We could cite mood (which varies with time), social backgroud, life experiences etc.

I've only read enough on Socionics to know what is it about. I think that because of what I described, any theory that deals specifically with people interaction must be weaker then just dealing with the individuals. This happens not only because it's way harder to test and control the other variables but also because the theory becomes weaker as it tries to predict more stuff out of the same data.

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Old 01-02-2010, 12:35 AM   #18
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  Originally Posted by INTJDownUnder
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Besides on this forum Synamon (INTJ) is married to an ESTJ. If personality theory is an absolute science, then that should not be possible. Keirsey himself says that any personality type grouping can work, just some pairings tend to occur more frequently than others. Again, not a black and white declaration.

Correction, my husband is ESFJ, but there are other forumites with ESTJ spouses, JustMel is one who comes to mind. Actually based on
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, a lot of the married INTJs on the forum are paired with S's.

There more to every person than MBTI type, it only describes a fraction of your overall personality. Someone with the same cognitive functions as you doesn't necessarily value the same things or have the same goals that you do. Using MBTI as a tool to help understand the way your mate thinks in order to facilitate better communication is great, using it to screen for a mate isn't.

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Old 01-02-2010, 12:44 AM   #19
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  Originally Posted by Synamon
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There more to every person than MBTI type, it only describes a fraction of your overall personality. Someone with the same cognitive functions as you doesn't necessarily value the same things or have the same goals that you do.

I agree with you. Temperament is supposed to be a component of your personality, not the whole thing. Also, personality is only supposed to be a component of how you relate with other people. That's why I find it hard to believe that we can create a theory that models accurately the relationship between people just basing on temperament types.

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Old 01-02-2010, 04:02 AM   #20
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  Originally Posted by Synamon
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Correction, my husband is ESFJ, but there are other forumites with ESTJ spouses, JustMel is one who comes to mind. Actually based on
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, a lot of the married INTJs on the forum are paired with S's.

There more to every person than MBTI type, it only describes a fraction of your overall personality. Someone with the same cognitive functions as you doesn't necessarily value the same things or have the same goals that you do. Using MBTI as a tool to help understand the way your mate thinks in order to facilitate better communication is great, using it to screen for a mate isn't.

Agreed. It took me a while but I got there eventually.

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Old 01-02-2010, 10:24 AM   #21
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I know ESTJs, but I think this topic is about romance? I don't have much to offer, but considering they are ESTJs, the gender of the ESTJ will matter. I think a female INTJ will have a much different experience than a male one.
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Old 01-02-2010, 10:34 PM   #22
INTJDownUnder
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"I am an old man and have known a great many troubles, but most of them have never happened." (Mark Twain)
MBTI: INTJ
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 164
 

  Originally Posted by True Rune
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I know ESTJs, but I think this topic is about romance? I don't have much to offer, but considering they are ESTJs, the gender of the ESTJ will matter. I think a female INTJ will have a much different experience than a male one.

I guess the only way to know is to ask a female INTJ who had such an experience and compare notes with a male INTJ.

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