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MBTI vs. Astrology astrology
Old 10-23-2009, 04:37 PM   #1
perefalc
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As a Capricorn and an INTJ, I have noticed and identified with many traits that are associated with each of the types. I dislike being associated with traits because of my birthday, but there are so many things that I identify with as a Capricorn.

Has anybody else noticed similarities/differences between their sign and MBTI?
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Old 10-23-2009, 04:49 PM   #2
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I've noticed other similarities, but it's mostly just confirmation bias. The main difference between MBTI and astrology is that you don't get to choose which sign you are. I think that because one gets to self-test and figure out what one's own type is, there is a stronger basis for drawing conclusions based on MBTI type. (Not a lot stronger, there's still a lot of room for error in determining type.) FWIW, I tend to associate IN/STJ with Capricorn, INFJ with Scorpio, E/INTP with Aquarius, and INFP with Pisces - but even as I do that, I note that it's just pattern-finding, and not real measurements of anything.

With respect to sun sign, even a professional astrologer will tell you that the sun sign, while significant, isn't that significant and can easily be overshadowed by other factors. The only thing I'd tell you differently than the professional astrologer is that the rest of astrology is confirmation-biased, too. I've learned a lot about people and myself from astrology - and simultaneously learned that astrology is really not very useful at all.
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Old 10-23-2009, 05:06 PM   #3
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The first thing I thought when I saw the title of this new topic was "Capricorn!", lol!
The astrological forces I associate with INTJ are "Capricorn" and "Saturn"...and "Virgo" to a lesser degree. The more aspects Saturn has and the more planets are in Capricorn (and it's house, the 10th) and maybe Virgo (and it's house, the 6th), the more likely it is that you are an INTJ. But that's only my own theory...
I myself am no Capricorn, I am an Aries (or have Sun in Aries, to speak more accurate), not the sign you associate with a typical INTJ...on the contrary (rather with ENFP). But I have some pretty tough Saturn aspects, that rule my whole birth chart and maybe thats the reason why I am a typical INTJ: Saturn square Sun, Saturn square Pluto (in house 10) and Saturn square Jupiter. All in all I have 8 Saturn aspects, but these 3 are the most powerful and most hard ones...they dictate the framework and direction of my character development and most likely my destiny.
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Old 10-23-2009, 05:17 PM   #4
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I must admit, the whole idea of floating rocks in the sky that talk to people has always held a certain appeal to me. Often, I would say, what they have to say is as equally important, or even more, as something a lot of people have to say.

My only problem is that I can listen to the one without problem, but have to use ear plugs for the other.
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Old 10-23-2009, 05:32 PM   #5
The Great Malefic
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  Originally Posted by NoOne
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I must admit, the whole idea of floating rocks in the sky that talk to people has always held a certain appeal to me. Often, I would say, what they have to say is as equally important, or even more, as something a lot of people have to say.
My only problem is that I can listen to the one without problem, but have to use ear plugs for the other.

Lol, already the old greeks and romans knew that they are not only rocks but gods who impact our character development (...and our destiny, but no INTJ would like to hear that, lol!).
And don't worry, everybody listen to them subconscious...

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Old 10-23-2009, 05:44 PM   #6
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For me (and I'm assuming most people), I found out my astrology sign first, then my mbti.

posing a hypothetical question: Suppose that one found out their sign, then started acting/using the characteristics of that sign, then took the MBTI test, etc.

What if the same person had a different sign, would their MBTI change?

I'm not sure if there is even an answer to that, just something I was pondering.
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Old 10-23-2009, 09:54 PM   #7
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I'm a Pisces Sun, Pisces Ascendant, and Aquarius moon. The intuitional aspects of Pisces and Aquarius relate quite strongly to how I perceive Ni (imo), since both signs rank up there as the most intuitive and internally-reflective (especially Pisces), but the empathic/compassionate aspects of Pisces seem much more INFJ.

However, I've long felt like much more of a 'feeler' than the average INTJ. I use my Fi almost more than I do my Te. I also tend to value my Fi over my Te.

I think it's standard with Astrology to look at a person's entire natal chart, since just the Sun sign is supposedly not very indicative of one's personality. Many believe the Ascendant or even the North Node to be of greater/equal significance to the standard Sun sign. Also it's pretty standard to take the combined Sun, Moon, and Ascendant signs for a more complete picture.

I don't necessarily 'believe in' astrology, I just find it vaguely interesting. The problem with viewing Astrology (and especially one's entire natal chart) is that so many factors come into play that you can get it to say almost anything... and thus the whole confirmation bias mentioned earlier.
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Old 10-23-2009, 10:14 PM   #8
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I am a scorpio and sometimes I don't feel very intj I'm kind of a hybrid infp/intj... I know as a child I was very orderly and systematic and all and I still am to an extent but after spending some time in the world I am more cautious, jaded and compassionate...
Scorpios are simply intense and deep. I don't feel that what I am relates well with the world in its present form
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Old 10-23-2009, 11:58 PM   #9
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An important difference between MBTI and astrology is if you work out someone's MBTI type and then give them the description of another type they will on average disagree with it whereas if you work out someone's astrological sign but give them the description of another type they will on average agree with it. AKA astrology is bullshit relying on conformation bias whereas MBTI is a way of describing human personality.
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Old 10-24-2009, 12:56 AM   #10
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  Originally Posted by Freedom Geek
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An important difference between MBTI and astrology is if you work out someone's MBTI type and then give them the description of another type they will on average disagree with it whereas if you work out someone's astrological sign but give them the description of another type they will on average agree with it. AKA astrology is bullshit relying on conformation bias whereas MBTI is a way of describing human personality.

Not really. Maybe statistically, but the average person isn't exactly known for their wealth of self-knowledge. If someone told me I was an Aries, Taurus, Gemini, Leo, Libra, Virgo, Sagittarius, etc, I'd be inclined to say 'bullshit', because they aren't all interchangeable. I have a fairly coherent understanding of all the astrological archetypes, and with this knowledge in mind, Neptunian and Mercurial influences fit better than the others.

That said, I neither 'believe' in it nor 'disbelieve'. It's just an additional frame of reference. It's basically a wealth of symbolism and archaic 'knowledge'. Even if it is wholly superstitious or running contrary to contemporary wisdom, that doesn't really change my opinion.

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Old 10-24-2009, 12:59 AM   #11
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I picked several signs at random. Each of them have many points which applied.
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Old 10-24-2009, 01:01 AM   #12
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  Originally Posted by Tyrant Soup
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I picked several signs at random. Each of them have many points which applied.

Personally, I have never found this to be the case.

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Old 10-24-2009, 02:19 AM   #13
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I think the problem with people saying 'bullshit' about astrology is the fact most don't know there is more to it then just sun signs. I'm not sure about this correlation though between MBTI and astrology though.

I know I'm a cuspid (Capricorn/Aquarius), ascendent Virgo, moon in Libra. I know I have a higher duality between INTJ/INFP then most other INTJs as well, but... if you look at an old thread (search for astrology) you'll find there is no correlation. If I do recall it was pretty darn even across the board. =p


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Old 10-24-2009, 02:40 AM   #14
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  Originally Posted by Amphorian
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I think the problem with people saying 'bullshit' about astrology is the fact most don't know there is more to it then just sun signs. I'm not sure about this correlation though between MBTI and astrology though.

I know I'm a cuspid (Capricorn/Aquarius), ascendent Virgo, moon in Libra. I know I have a higher duality between INTJ/INFP then most other INTJs as well, but... if you look at an old thread (search for astrology) you'll find there is no correlation. If I do recall it was pretty darn even across the board. =p


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The star signs are an integral part of astrology and if they are bullshit the entire thing is probably bullshit. The predictions that astrologers make are also bullshit, scoring no better than competing skeptics in studies. The reason they seem to work is that they are so vague they can apply to a whole range of activities and even then well you remember the hits and forget the misses.

Astrology is not based upon evidence, it is no more than an outdated medieval belief system.


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Old 10-24-2009, 02:41 AM   #15
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I guess the signs can be a little more flexible than MBTI.

My MBTI agrees with my sign, I think
It's Virgo in sun, in moon and in Mars... but I don't know the rest.
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Old 10-24-2009, 03:09 AM   #16
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some of my charts:
Sun sign: Gemini
Rising Sign: Scorpio
Moon Sign: Cancer
Element: cusp of air and water
Quality: Mutable
Nodes: Leo and Aquarius
MBTI: INTJ and has always tested INTJ

As you can see, I'm all over the place, astrologically speaking. For instance, I'm a gemini and a scorpio, which would mean that I'm my own arch enemy XD and according to my rising and nodes, I should be an extrovert and a natural born leader, which is so far from the truth it's almost laughable. I tend to be the one to forsee the failure and fall of the leader.

I have this fuzzy theory that signs had more truth in the past because people lived according to the seasons more and relied on the world around them, including the stars and the sun, and the age that certain values and experiences are introduced has a lot to do with the shaping of the child's personality. and that since children tend to be more self centered (which is not always a bad thing), and tend to pay more attention around the time of their birthdays because that's when they expect to get stuff, that the things going on during those months may stick better in their minds, for instance, winter children (like capricorns) might have remembered more tough times and become more practical as a result and so on. over time, we tend to rely less and less on the 'outside' world and would be less affected by it and would stray more from the sign. it's a loose theory that i'm still working on, but it seems to make some amount of sense to me.

I tend to relate more to my MBTI type than my signs, but as neither are what I would consider reliable, i wouldn't make decisions based on them, but i do find it amusing when my personality really does correlate with my MBTI or my sign.
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Old 10-24-2009, 01:28 PM   #17
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  Originally Posted by Freedom Geek
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The star signs are an integral part of astrology and if they are bullshit the entire thing is probably bullshit. The predictions that astrologers make are also bullshit, scoring no better than competing skeptics in studies. The reason they seem to work is that they are so vague they can apply to a whole range of activities and even then well you remember the hits and forget the misses.

Astrology is not based upon evidence, it is no more than an outdated medieval belief system.


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Despite me personally being a heavily oriented person for 'evidence' myself, I do realize some things can be not 'bullshit' without proof. Yep, it's true. Crazy I know? Of course, interesting enough I don't agree with all of astrology, especially the predictions. More so the blueprints of people personalities (strengths and weaknesses, not an absolute or picture perfect way to have a personality, just what best can be utilized and watched out for/improved upon). I'm more inclined to agree with that part despite the lack of proof. But we're all different, view things differently and utilize things differently. So what may be helpful for another might not be of use to you.

Also, they really aren't that vague when you get indepth about the planets and their precise location at the time of birth, time of birth, location of birth, etc. ._. It's actually creepy I must say. The predictions have been off though for me, blueprints with all information considered not so (also with others that I have entered their info). It does freak me out how accurate it is (the blueprint part). o_0 Because yes, it does bother me their isn't "proof". It really does. But then again no true studies of astrology and it's accuracy have been done. Which is not a good thing actually when saying it is or isn't correct. I think we need to study planets more, their effect on other celestial bodies and perhaps how they influence Earth, study human's minds more (I believe minds can be heavy influenced without knowing it) before truly coming to a conclusion. Yes, I would like astrology to be tested formally and at a deeper level! And once it has will change my views accordingly. ^_^ Until then I'm open about the possibilities of influences of celestial bodies on humans directly or indirectly.

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Old 10-24-2009, 01:33 PM   #18
perefalc
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  Originally Posted by Freedom Geek
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An important difference between MBTI and astrology is if you work out someone's MBTI type and then give them the description of another type they will on average disagree with it whereas if you work out someone's astrological sign but give them the description of another type they will on average agree with it. AKA astrology is bullshit relying on conformation bias whereas MBTI is a way of describing human personality.

  Originally Posted by Freedom Geek
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The star signs are an integral part of astrology and if they are bullshit the entire thing is probably bullshit. The predictions that astrologers make are also bullshit, scoring no better than competing skeptics in studies. The reason they seem to work is that they are so vague they can apply to a whole range of activities and even then well you remember the hits and forget the misses.

Astrology is not based upon evidence, it is no more than an outdated medieval belief system.


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I'm glad that you feel so impassioned and indignant over "bullshit". Don't worry, I'm pretty sure none of us are going to start reverting back to the Dark Ages. Although, I'm suddenly having the urge to brush up on my Chaucer.

For the most part, astrology is not about predicting the future. Most of it is more about different planetary positions affect human personalities, various human events, etc. It's only been since the past couple hundred years that astronomy and astrology have been seen as separate studies.

The study of the night sky has been around since about the 3rd millennium B.C.E. and is considered the oldest of the natural sciences. Yes, the earliest astronomers were usually priests, and identified the stars and planets with divine beings. I could easily see believing in the sun/planets as gods that through mathematical calculations predicted the best time to plant/harvest crops rather than a faceless, invisible divine being that speaks to people in tongues.


But, I didn't create this thread to argue over astrology being a pseudoscience or not. I thought that it would be interesting to look at the coincidences between two different ways of looking at peoples personalities.

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Old 10-24-2009, 02:30 PM   #19
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If there were similarities then all INTJs would be born under the same sign and they aren't. Previous polls on the forum showed a pretty even distribution for all astrology signs.
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Old 10-24-2009, 02:37 PM   #20
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  Originally Posted by lincoln
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I am a scorpio and sometimes I don't feel very intj I'm kind of a hybrid infp/intj... I know as a child I was very orderly and systematic and all and I still am to an extent but after spending some time in the world I am more cautious, jaded and compassionate...
Scorpios are simply intense and deep. I don't feel that what I am relates well with the world in its present form

I'm a Scorpio and identify with many Scorpio traits; more than that, I share similarities with all of the Scorpios I know, which are quite a few.

Coincidence?

Maybe, maybe not.

As far as the correlation between MBTI and the Zodiac, there are quite a few traits that the INTJ and the Scorpio share.

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Old 10-24-2009, 03:00 PM   #21
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  Originally Posted by SelfMadeBum
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I'm a Scorpio and identify with many Scorpio traits; more than that, I share similarities with all of the Scorpios I know, which are quite a few.

Coincidence?

Maybe, maybe not.

As far as the correlation between MBTI and the Zodiac, there are quite a few traits that the INTJ and the Scorpio share.

Don't even think that way for a second. Even just a basic knowledge of how many months in pregnancy a woman will undertake should tell you the overt nonsense of astrology, and why everything is so mysteriously vague that pretty much anyone can fit, by such a percentage, into any one "sign" of their choosing.

With that said there isn't an original comparison for the INTJ, just like how the INTJ type isn't anything greater than another basic generalization that Keirsey categorized together arbitrarily, not mathematically.

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Old 10-24-2009, 03:35 PM   #22
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No, there is no 'reason' to astrology. However, I have no problem existing outside of what science can explain.

Besides, I never said there was anything to it.
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Old 10-24-2009, 03:48 PM   #23
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Why have you suddenly become more vague? For any belief there has to be a reason for that belief, and astrology reasons that the month in which you were born in will determine your individual characteristics. That is wrong and it is easily disprovable by relying 100% on vagueness.

And you did speculate earlier that you didn't know that for sure, so you, at least then, did say there was something to the theory.
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Old 10-24-2009, 03:54 PM   #24
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I never committed to believing anything. I have to pull from AaronSheffield here and say, "I said what I said; I did not say what I did not say."

All I said was that I identify with the traits of the Scorpio; I said all of the Scorpios I know share certain traits; I said the INTJ and the Scorpio share a number of traits.

Explain to me where I said I give importance/credence to astrology or where I claimed it was based on reason, or that it determined anything. How can you disprove what has never been proven?

Since when does 'I don't know' mean 'there's something to it?'
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Old 10-24-2009, 04:10 PM   #25
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Ok, I suppose I presumed a bit when I read your first comment on this thread since it's clear to me now you're completely neutral with the theory; you never chose one belief over the other.

So let's change the terms a little by me asking you how the Scorpio fits the INTJ more than any of the other signs despite how equally vague they are, and why it would matter when they, respectively, are just implicit and explicit astrology.
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