[northshore]

Hi everyone!

I'm posting here for advice from INTJ females. I'm an INFJ guy (weak I, strong NFJ), and am completely in love with an INTJ female (strong INTJ in all categories). I'll start with some background, the situation, and then my question.

Background
We're both in our thirties; I've been in a few relationships previously, on lots of dates, and get hit on regularly. Therefore, at this point I know exactly what I'm looking for and this girl is it. She is logical, independent, precise, objective, confident, thorough, responsible, brilliant, moral, and extremely funny (she can do sarcasm with a straight face which is very, very funny, and then will not ever admit it was sarcasm, she also will periodically be critical in a way where I know she doesn't mean it, which is funny too). She doesn't seem to act at all on feelings, which is interesting. We also share exactly the same values and principles, which is important to me.

I haven't stated the strength of how I feel to her. My observation is that INTJs tend to make relationship decisions methodically and slowly. I also suspect she might not understand how I could be so certain about her so quickly. So, I largely keep my feelings/thoughts to myself and tone everything down. Also, we've only been on four dates over the past month, so it's early on.

Situation
Despite my interest, it's obviously only a go if she's also interested. So, I decided to be direct. I told her I like her and am interested in spending more time together. She told me she likes me too but is unsure about dating, though would definitely like to get to know each other better. I told her, sounds great (even though I'm not entirely certain what she's thinking). Subsequently, we've gotten together a couple times and she even invited me over to her place to hang out, which seems positive. She also apparently pays close attention to the things I say and has made some very sweet gestures. Therefore, I decided direct seems to be working for me, so I told her I'm very interested in her and definitely would be interested in dating. She told me she doesn't really want to get into dating. I asked if she would elaborate, and she said she doesn't want to get into the physical aspects that go along with dating right now. I told her, not a problem at all, as the reason "dating" matters to me is I'd talk about different things with her depending if the context is romantic or friendship, plus I obviously higher prioritize someone I'm interested in dating over not, so that's why it'd be helpful to know what she's thinking. She seemed surprised by my reply and said that made sense but she just isn't sure yet, though wants to keep talking and getting together. (btw, we're both christian (protestant), and take our faith seriously)

Question
I'm inclined to take her words at face value, go with the flow, keep any talk of feelings to a minimum, be direct, and respect her boundaries. My question: is this the best approach?

Naturally, she doesn't show ANY emotion, so it's very difficult to know whether I'm deluding myself or if she's interested.

Thanks for reading, all feedback is welcome, though I'd especially appreciate feedback from INTJ females.

Footnotes:
* Take it as given, I am absolutely an INFJ, and she is absolutely an INTJ.

[SelfMadeBum]

What is your question exactly?

[Tough Love]

As an INTJ female, i hate dating as a rule. So much so that i have previously taken a guy back to mine just to avoid going on a date with them. I think its the structure of the 'normal' dating process i cant stand. I get very uncomfotable, and dont act like myself. I'de rather someone got to know me for who i am, and i can only be that way when i am in comfortable surroundings.

You say that she is critical, sarcastic and a strong woman. IMO it sounds like she is displaying what one would call a smoke screen, and one she may not be able to uphold in a dating environment. She perhaps doesnt want to lose that sense of control over herself?

If i were you, i would scrap the formal dating idea, and find somewhere you can hang out as friends and then, let it gradually move into something else.

Im also not quite sure what the question is, but theres feedback for you.

[Bluesea]

It sounds like she wants time. If you are thinking lifetime, you have time. Enjoy the experience of slowly getting to know her. No signs yet she is put off by your approach so in answer to your first question, seems like it is working. In answer to your second question, don't rely on some typing system to choose your compatibilities for you. Trust your self and your experiences. I think what Keirsey, et al., are saying is that often we can beneft from being with people who have strenghts we do not have - from a personal growth and balance of the relationship perspective. People however are not fixed entities, if they test as one thing, they can also have developed and can continue to develop other aspects of themselves in response to their own intuitive and experiential awareness that they need to be able to adapt to situations that make them feel uncomfortable at times, and master those. Some people can test one thing, but have developed ok enough strategies for situations where they need opposite strengths, and do not necessarily need another in their life to encourage this growth. Yet others, may benefit from it greatly, and not really want to develop anything more beyond being themselves as they are. Different strokes for different folks?

In terms of your more imbedded curiosity about how INTJ women would / might be thinking / feeling about your responses .... this might be light relief for you when people answer, but may not be what she is actually thinking / feeling, so be careful ... I can't see your approach as making any glaring errors myself at this point. Relax. Enjoy. If you do end up in a long term relationship in the future, this courting phase will seem like a short and very special time in your history, so make the most of it.

She sounds a bit noncommital ... I guess I am curious about the basis of that too, however she is not rejecting or resisting your advances, as you are both Christian, perhaps it is about her values and wanting / but not being sure that males will totally understand her choices / comfort levels around intimacy in inital encounters with dating situations?

[imjustcarrie]

Wow, she sounds like me!
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


I am most comfortable just hanging out. I refuse to "date" as I hate being put in a box like that. My INTP guy and I have a weekly "Sunday School" after choir practice each week, and we just hang out at a local bar. Yes, we love irony. It's much more comfortable, we can be ourselves, and there are no boxes to be anxious about. Using this once a week scheduled time, we've progressed at a rate that was acceptable for both of us.

Also, taking her words at face value can be tricky. If she is at all passive aggressive, she may be saying more than you think she is. But since I do not know her, I do not know that...and cannot state absolutely. How was that for a disclaimer?

I prefer to be questioned about what's "between the lines." If I say something that could be interpreted in more than one context...I would rather someone ask for clarification than to assume the wrong intent. I dislike being misunderstood, and would rather roll my eyes at you for questioning me...then think you obviously weren't really listening to me.

Also, she's probably showing more emotion than you realize. I was yelling my emotions for several months, when all my INTP was hearing was a whisper. Emotion is very subtle for an INTJ, so look closely. You may be missing something.

Any of that make sense?

[Storm]

Did you ask her what she meant about "the physical aspects?" Is she asexual perhaps? I would have asked her to elaborate more on that, because it's rather cryptic. It could mean she's not physically attracted to you, or code for that she doesn't want to date at all.

Everything else seems fine - it looks like how I like approach dating actually. No need to jump into a full fledged relationship before you know the person well enough.

[Silverity]

She sounds a lot like me as well. I stress the need to just be friends with a guy for a LONG time before I date them. Usually at least a year, more likely 3-4. It takes a lot of contact before I'm comfortable enough to consider dating because, urgh, I really hate dating, I like to just skip the entire session and jump to "we're together". I think what you're doing is fine.

[cannotseethe]

	Originally Posted by Silverity To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	She sounds a lot like me as well. I stress the need to just be friends with a guy for a LONG time before I date them. Usually at least a year, more likely 3-4. It takes a lot of contact before I'm comfortable enough to consider dating because, urgh, I really hate dating, I like to just skip the entire session and jump to "we're together". I think what you're doing is fine.

3-4 years? Really? I find myself wondering what you mean by the word "dating" then. Surely you wouldn't need to spend 3-4 years seeing movies and bowling with a man you call your buddy/pal before you'd be willing to graduate to road trips and going out to dinner and...uh, other things.

[Danny]

I got your question; it was clear. Yes, that's the best approach. Direct, clear, and DON'T push.

Wanting to know what she's thinking is a compliment and likely may intrigue her IF she has any interest in you, BUT understand that she may not be able to share (articulate) that with you. If she's not very interested in you, wanting to know what she's thinking can feel very intrusive, threatening, and creepy.

Above all, take her at face value--and don't read her face.
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

[northshore]

My sincere thanks to everyone who replied. Your comments have really broadened my perspective. Specifically, thanks SelfMadeBum for your initial reply, as I revised my post and it's now much more succinct.

	If i were you, i would scrap the formal dating idea, and find somewhere you can hang out as friends and then, let it gradually move into something else. (ToughLove)

	I am most comfortable just hanging out. I refuse to "date" as I hate being put in a box like that. (imjustcarrie)

Thank you both - I'm going to take your advice and no longer ask if we're dating or not and see where that goes.

	Also, she's probably showing more emotion than you realize. (imjustcarrie)

YES - I think this is VERY possible, especially given everything I've read on this forum. She was emailing me almost daily for a couple weeks, so that sounds like way more contact than is typical.

	Did you ask her what she meant about "the physical aspects?" Is she asexual perhaps? I would have asked her to elaborate more on that, because it's rather cryptic. It could mean she's not physically attracted to you, or code for that she doesn't want to date at all. (Storm)

Very interesting. I hadn't considered any of this. Regarding physical aspects of a relationship, I didn't ask and she didn't say. I always avoid asking others potentially uncomfortable questions. I sure hope she's not "asexual", yikes! I actually think no, and it's that she's just very careful about romance. She did once say she's eventually looking for a relationship, and I'm uncertain if the physical attraction just isn't there. If so, I presume she would have said so? Perhaps not.

	She sounds a bit noncommital ... I guess I am curious about the basis of that too, however she is not rejecting or resisting your advances, as you are both Christian, perhaps it is about her values and wanting / but not being sure that males will totally understand her choices / comfort levels around intimacy in inital encounters with dating situations? (Bluesea)

YES. she's completely noncommittal, but she also has never flat out rejected or resisted an advance so far. I'm presuming this is either a reaction to some past experience or perhaps she's simply considering options and doesn't want to commit.

Silverity - Thanks for the input - I think I'm going to go with the friends plan. She knows I'm interested in something romantic, so I presume she'll let me know if/when that works for her. I don't mind being friends either, as I sincerely like her and value her company. If I'm not right for her, I'd rather see her with someone who is. Of course, I'm really crazy about her so hope this will go relationship
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

	I got your question; it was clear. Yes, that's the best approach. Direct, clear, and DON'T push. (Danny)

Danny - you are so right about not pushing an INTJ. Good advice, and I am sitting back now waiting to hear from her, hopefully. I've written her multiple mawkish emails, which I will never actually send. I love her and am dying to tell her, but I can't imagine that going well. Therefore, I'm trying to speak in her language, which is tough since I'm all F, no T. I think she's all T, no F.

Anyhow, thanks! You are all super generous with your time to help a stranger.

[SelfMadeBum]

	Originally Posted by northshore To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Question I'm inclined to take her words at face value, go with the flow, keep any talk of feelings to a minimum, be direct, and respect her boundaries. My question: is this the best approach?

Thank you; I'd rather be sure on what you're asking, than provide a response that's useless to you.

This approach sounds best to me at this point;

Take her words at face value: For me at least, this is always recommended. As long as I'm being serious, I mean what I say, and I expect to be heard and believed. She says she doesn't know; I would take that to mean she honestly doesn't know and would like some time to gather more information for analysis, and to become more comfortable with you.

By the way, it's not totally accurate to say she's all T and no F. We have feelings too. As a matter of fact, Fi (Introverted Feeling) is our tertiary function, and has to do with considering our feelings in making decisions. Having a strong T (in our case Te; Extraverted Thinking), from my understanding has to do with the strength of the preference, as in she is more comfortable thinking out decisions logically in her dealings with people; this does not mean she doesn't have strong feelings.

The case may be that she is not used to calling up those feelings, or having them aroused, which would cause her to deal with them. It's been said we aren't "in touch" with them, and that might certainly be so in her case. Which means she will need a little more time to sort things out. Give her that time.

Keep any talk of feelings to a minimum: This early in the relationship, (four dates, right?) YES. As I said before, it takes time, often a lot of time, for an INTJ to open up to a person,to become comfortable with that person and reveal bits of themselves at a time. You have strong feelings for her right now, and that might overwhelm her, and cause her to pull back, should you come on too strong.

Respect her boundaries: Absolutely, but I think this goes for most people. She is religious, as you said. Typically, personal principles are very important to us, and it's important that they are respected by others, especially those we have relationships with. If she says she's not comfortable doing certain things with you, she means it and hell yes, you should respect that.

All in all, I think your plan is fine.
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

[Danny]

	Originally Posted by northshore To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Danny - you are so right about not pushing an INTJ. Good advice, and I am sitting back now waiting to hear from her, hopefully. I've written her multiple mawkish emails, which I will never actually send. I love her and am dying to tell her, but I can't imagine that going well. Therefore, I'm trying to speak in her language, which is tough since I'm all F, no T. I think she's all T, no F.

	Originally Posted by northshore To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I'm all F, no T. I think she's all T, no F.

An F Would think that. Has it occurred to you that perhaps she likes the F in you? Why change who you are? Be who you are and LET her be who she is; just understand the difference i.e. don't make assumptions about her facial expressions.

	Originally Posted by northshore To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I love her and am dying to tell her, but I can't imagine that going well.

Maybe you should just tell her! Having someone attracted to you is attractive in and of itself; it may go better than you "imagine". Besides, if you don't as an F you may spill it out sideways in frustration and that WON'T go over well with an INTJ. When you tell her with all your warm compassion touchy-feely-ness (and that's not bad), that INTJ's can like in an F, just be prepared for a flat facial expression and give her lots of time (at least overnight) to respond to you 'cause she'll think about it for a while--and that's not bad, either.

[rara avis]

	Originally Posted by northshore To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Question I'm inclined to take her words at face value, go with the flow, keep any talk of feelings to a minimum, be direct, and respect her boundaries. My question: is this the best approach?

Well, my first thought was, What choice do you have? But I suppose you could just pick your own thing and go with that instead... I just don't know why you would. What she's told you seems to make sense.

I've been told, very directly by someone who'd been close to me for years, that it takes serious cajones to try to be my friend. It surprised me to hear this, but I just hadn't thought about it like that. I'm nice, but I suppose I'm just not naturally a really reassuring person. My natural inclinations don't really add up to me dispensing a lot of mercy, at close quarters - you are in, or you are out. The best way I know to be merciful is to be cautious in the first place. Which is, again, not reassuring to people who are trying to get close.

Especially in terms of interpersonal relationships, there are no guarantees- so much of it is based on F-stuff, which seems too intangible and alarmingly fluid for me to be comfortable building a course of action on it. If I like you now, who's to say I won't Feel differently next week- and if I've already dived in, then what do I do? Then it's REALLY awkward, and I may do damage. It takes time to become accustomed to a person, to be able to take some longer-term sampling of my feelings, and to see whether there are practical supports for what feelings or intentions I may have.

[cannotseethe]

	Originally Posted by northshore To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I love her and am dying to tell her, but I can't imagine that going well.

So I'm not a woman, and I'm not this woman, and everybody's different, and personality type isn't everything, and I don't know the context, etc. (can we just call those the "standard caveats" so I don't have to re-write them every time I make a post?
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
)

But, I can tell you that if someone said "I love you" to me after four dates, I'm almost sure I would flip out. Which would mean one or more of the following would almost surely happen:

• I wouldn't say "I love you" back (unless I were really feeling it) but instead would somewhat blandly say "what?"
• My head would explode with thoughts like "are you insane?"
• I'd disappear for awhile till aforementioned explosion died down and I could think clearly.

Take it for what it's worth.

[northshore]

Keep any talk of feelings to a minimum: This early in the relationship, (four dates, right?) YES. As I said before, it takes time, often a lot of time, for an INTJ to open up to a person,to become comfortable with that person and reveal bits of themselves at a time. You have strong feelings for her right now, and that might overwhelm her, and cause her to pull back, should you come on too strong. - SelfMadeBum

This was good advice, which sadly I didn't follow. Things were going well, then I didn't talk with her for a few days, and then I recently sent a ridiculously over-emotive email (yes, way too soon, way too much information, and email is such the wrong medium.) It's just so incredibly rare that I meet someone I like so much!

So, in hindsight, yes, she was interested, and yes, coming on too strongly is a huge mistake.

Any new advice is welcome. This time you can bet I'll try to follow it. My thinking is it's really not up to me at this point and either she'll understand the context that I simply like her a lot, let it slide, and call or write, or will just write me off. Is there really any alternative? Lesson learned: when in doubt, do nothing! I forgot that over-thinking is such a mistake in dating...

[hope]

My view as an INTJ female: I think it is very important to give her enough space. I hate when people push to get closer, especially those "passive aggressive" acts. I have stopped going out with a few people as they were so "pushy", despite the fact that I do enjoy their company. I just couldn’t breathe - literally!

When it is time to get closer, you two will be closer, just let it go with its nature pace – unless you really want to drive her away.

[Sunyata]

First, congrats on coming to this forum. Excellent, intelligent choice.
This place is essential for understanding the garden-variety INTJ.

You are INFJ guy ga-ga over INTJ girl.
I am INFJ girl gag-ga over INTJ guy.
A familiar story.

I also was VERY sure about how I felt about my INTJ guy within a two weeks of knowing him. I told him via email. Dont know if his head exploded, but he said just because we have a lot of shared traits [which is very true] doesnt mean it is love. [I am para-phrasing muchly, but that's the jist.] He said, lets get to know one another first.

This confused me since he made the first moves and came to me. I was puzzled, but I backed off. I was interested in this first-ever INTJ guy. So I toned it down--for an INFJ.
For an INTJ, maybe not so much, but I was being me. The me that attracted him to me in the first place, I guess.
Told him I adored him, that he was wonderful, the best person I'd ever met. Easy, because it was all true. No flattery or lies. He didnt mind. I didnt expect him to say it back--he didnt.
But he LIKED it.
Now, six months later, we are fine companions.
He hasnt said he loved me--unless that one time we were talking on the phone--coulda swore he said "love you, bye.", but I cant be sure.
But he does call me sweet names which I absolutely LOVE!
I never comment when he's called me a sweet name; I think It might embarrass him and I dont want to make a huge deal over it and I certainly dont want him to stop!
It does take a long time for a INTJ to trust, but once they do--it is SOLID!
They are loyal friends and really very sweet people.
Must admit, because of my INTJ, I think they are all very wonderful.

Go on and tell her you adore her, that her mind fascinates you and she's possibly the smartest person you've ever met. [Which will be true, I daresay.]
I'd avoid the use of the word LOVE.
There are other synonyms that express the same sentiment and are not so emotionally-loaded.
And yes, keep the emo WAAAAY down.
What's casual for you, may be over-the-top for her.
Emotions REALLY do puzzle INTJs and most dont want to talk about them. Go figure!

Good Luck with your INTJ girl.
Keep us updated on your progress?

[northshore]

	Originally Posted by hope To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	My view as an INTJ female: I think it is very important to give her enough space. I hate when people push to get closer, especially those "passive aggressive" acts. I have stopped going out with a few people as they were so "pushy", despite the fact that I do enjoy their company. I just couldn’t breathe - literally!

Well, you pretty much summed it up. Things were going great and then I acted like a complete goof. And yes, I inadvertently sure did write something ridiculously passive aggressive. I am so upset with myself! I don't even agree with so much of what I wrote. I was just sad that we weren't talking as frequently as we had, and I like her so.

She didn't write me back (no surprise there) and the next day I wrote a very, very brief apology. I figure it's always right to apologize quickly and completely when wrong.

Is there hope? I don't know. I'd like to say you live and you learn, but this wasn't just any girl, she is exactly what I'm looking for! ironically this is exactly why I got myself into such a pickle in the first place. Normally I've got it together! sigh...

Thanks all for the nice replies. sunyata - I'm so glad to hear your situation is going well, you sure did it right!

[JohnDoe]

	Originally Posted by northshore To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I figure it's always right to apologize quickly and completely when wrong.

INFJ's tend to often appear (at least if people could read our minds) to probably be some of the most impulsive of all people. This is of course, nonsense, because most of our thoughts are pretty well backed up by intuition, experience, and quite often logic. But people believe that the length of time it takes to make a decision is correlated to the quality of that decision. So here is the lesson you get to learn: you know those INFJ thoughts where you can make decisions really quickly compared to most people? Don't let those out and life is a hell of a lot easier. To most people an apology delivered quickly and completely probably is going to look fake, because you didn't think about it for days. This is especially true when dealing with INT's.