[Ray9]

Here is my opinion of capital punishment. In theory I'm against it; in practice I support it. Liberal Democrats may need to consult someone to explain this. This incident took place just a few miles from where I live and I believe all four should be dragged to a public square and hung by the neck until dead.


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[INTJRyan]

	Originally Posted by Ray9 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Here is my opinion of capital punishment. In theory I'm against it; in practice I support it. Liberal Democrats may need to consult someone to explain this.

Why is that? I'm pretty much used to conservative Republicans holding hypocritical views.

In reality, this is a horrible crime, and I shed no tears for a criminal put to death. However, there is not equal justice under the law in this country. I work in the legal profession and see it everyday. The rich get preferential treatment if for no other reason than being able to hire better/more attorneys and experts. Until this inequality is abolished (an impossibility in my view) the State should not be killing people.

[Storm]

I'm not seeing any reasons why hanging is better than the current system of capital punishment. I'm also not seeing any reason why a public execution is better than a private one.

[LordCorbin]

Originally Posted by INTJRyan To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

In reality, this is a horrible crime, and I shed no tears for a criminal put to death. However, there is not equal justice under the law in this country. I work in the legal profession and see it everyday. The rich get preferential treatment if for no other reason than being able to hire better/more attorneys and experts. Until this inequality is abolished (an impossibility in my view) the State should not be killing people.

I agree. Though, to be honest, if I was in charge, I would fast track these scum to the end of the line(after their convictions of course).

[Ray9]

	I'm not seeing any reasons why hanging is better than the current system of capital punishment. I'm also not seeing any reason why a public execution is better than a private one.

A crime like this is not just a crime against victims, it's a crime against the community. It's a crime against humanity. The community deserves to see justice done and it deserves to see it done quickly. There are no mitigating circumstances when killing is done for the sake of killing. My guess is that public hangings would have a profound deterrent effect on thrill killers.

In reality, this is a horrible crime, and I shed no tears for a criminal put to death. However, there is not equal justice under the law in this country. I work in the legal profession and see it everyday. The rich get preferential treatment if for no other reason than being able to hire better/more attorneys and experts. Until this inequality is abolished (an impossibility in my view) the State should not be killing people.

Local communities should have the right to enforce this punishment to protect the innocent from future immitators. Let all the members of the community be the jurors. As far as equal treatment under the law, that should be up to each individual community to decide. If some communities decide they want to sacrifice the innocent for some lofty, theoretical purpose then so be it.

[Holiman]

Some crimes are so bad that society itself feel's the need for both the harshest punishment available but also something that might instill a fear in those that might seek to do the same. Almost any case that recieves the death penalty will then of course be so terrible that the argument against the death penalty becomes nearly impossible to make and keep.

People do bad things and their must be punishment. The death penalty has to me some things that make it both unreasonable and useless.

1. its expensive. I know everyone thinks they can make it cheaper but you cannot and keep it fair and just if you did it would just make more problems.

2. its unfair. How many death row inmates have been found either innocent or wrongly convicted. You cannot make amends to a corpse.

3. its never been proven to stop others from commiting crimes. You sometimes only make the person killed into a icon that those of bent natures might look up towards later.

4. its not a very good punishment. No matter how terrible the wait, the fear or the trauma in the death penalty it doesnt really pay for the crime one must commit to be deserving of the punishment.


To add because I just cannot stand to let statements such as Ray9 has just made I qoute

Dr. Arthur Raper was commissioned in 1930 to produce a report on lynching. He discovered that "3,724 people were lynched in the United States from 1889 through to 1930. Over four-fifths of these were Negroes, less than one-sixth of whom were accused of rape. Practically all of the lynchers were native whites. The fact that a number of the victims were tortured, mutilated, dragged, or burned suggests the presence of sadistic tendencies among the lynchers. Of the tens of thousands of lynchers and onlookers, only 49 were indicted and only 4 have been sentenced."

[Profit]

	Originally Posted by Ray9 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	A crime like this is not just a crime against victims, it's a crime against the community. It's a crime against humanity. The community deserves to see justice done and it deserves to see it done quickly. There are no mitigating circumstances when killing is done for the sake of killing. My guess is that public hangings would have a profound deterrant effect on thrill killers.

Capital punishment has little impact on deterring murder or violent crimes. It may actually cause a slight increase in murder rates.

From:
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This is a short paper looking at statistical data concerning the impact of capital punishment as a deterrent.

" In 1935 Robert Dann published an analysis of homicides in Philadelphia during 60 days before and 60 days after five highly publicized executions. Dann argued that the deterrent effect of the executions should result in lower homicide rates during the post-execution periods. The result was the opposite; rates were higher than usual. Some 20 years later Leonard Savitz did a similar study, although in his work the critical days were the ones when death sentences were pronounced after well-publicized trials. Savitz found no significant difference in homicides for the before and after periods.7 Similar studies of short-term deterrence were carried out in Chicago and California, and again no deterrent effect was found."





Profit added to this post, 4 minutes and 17 seconds later...

Originally Posted by INTJRyan To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Why is that? I'm pretty much used to conservative Republicans holding hypocritical views. In reality, this is a horrible crime, and I shed no tears for a criminal put to death. However, there is not equal justice under the law in this country. I work in the legal profession and see it everyday. The rich get preferential treatment if for no other reason than being able to hire better/more attorneys and experts. Until this inequality is abolished (an impossibility in my view) the State should not be killing people.

I agree with Ryan. While I shed few tears for criminals I know that some individuals receive preferential treatment and some innocent people are convicted of crimes. For these reasons I do not support capital punishment.

[INTJRyan]

	Originally Posted by Ray9 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Loal communities should have the right to enforce this punishment to protect the innocent from future immitators. Let all the members of the community be the jurors. As far as equal treatment under the law, that should be up to each individual community to decide. If some communities decide they want to sacrifice the innocent for some lofty, theoretical purpose then so be it.

Sacrifice the innocent? Wow. Ok moving on...

Do you realize the chaos that would cause? And we already tried that. It led to a phrase now used in common parlance: witch hunt. If anything, there should be more uniformity in the law, not less.

[Ray9]

Here are two more locals that should have danced at the end of a rope.


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[Mogura]

I think the idea behind public hangings is to serve as a crime deterrent for the general public. This was in the days before education, newspapers, Internet etc. was widely available. Also, it probably provided some sort of satisfaction for the mob mentality that demanded action, whether justified or not.

Though the crime you cite is indeed heinous and warrants an appropriate punishment (execution perhaps), I don't think a public hanging would really do much except to satisfy the mob that demands "justice".

As for child serial rapists, I would support public beheadings...

[Warrior]

Originally Posted by Ray9 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

A crime like this is not just a crime against victims, it's a crime against the community. It's a crime against humanity. The community deserves to see justice done and it deserves to see it done quickly. There are no mitigating circumstances when killing is done for the sake of killing. My guess is that public hangings would have a profound deterrent effect on thrill killers. Loal communities should have the right to enforce this punishment to protect the innocent from future immitators. Let all the members of the community be the jurors. As far as equal treatment under the law, that should be up to each individual community to decide. If some communities decide they want to sacrifice the innocent for some lofty, theoretical purpose then so be it.

I'm all for the death penalty. In fact, I'd like to see it used a little more, but not because it has a deterrent effect. It may or may not, but the purpose is to punish, not to deter someone from committing a crime.





Warrior added to this post, 7 minutes and 4 seconds later...

	Originally Posted by Holiman To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	1. its expensive. I know everyone thinks they can make it cheaper but you cannot and keep it fair and just if you did it would just make more problems.

So. It's well worth it.

	2. its unfair. How many death row inmates have been found either innocent or wrongly convicted. You cannot make amends to a corpse.

This is not relevent. Innocent people being convicted of crimes is not good, but it is a seperate matter. It has no bearing on whether or not the death penalty is suitable punishment for a crime.

	3. its never been proven to stop others from commiting crimes. You sometimes only make the person killed into a icon that those of bent natures might look up towards later.

Again not relevent. The penalty for any crime is to punish, not to deter. This logic could be used to abolish all penalties for all crimes.

	4. its not a very good punishment. No matter how terrible the wait, the fear or the trauma in the death penalty it doesnt really pay for the crime one must commit to be deserving of the punishment.

What payment would you suggest? I think taking a person's life is fitting punishment for some crimes.

[IrishGuy]

Public hangings just encourage and incite mob rule and in the recent past they were used primarily to intimidate African American communities. I'm all for punishing those who commit heinous crimes, but my intuition tells me that public hangings would just encourage extrajudicial execution. When you get into the realm of extrajudicial executions you get lynchings and the Salem witch trials all over again.

[Ray9]

	Capital punishment has little impact on deterring murder or violent crimes. It may actually cause a slight increase in murder rates.

I'm wondering if murders committed in prison by inmates serving life sentences are considered in some of these statistics.

[Profit]

	Originally Posted by Ray9 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I'm wondering if murders committed in prison by inmates serving life sentences are considered in some of these statistics.

You are reaching my friend.

"Data from 1973 to 1984 show that murder rates in the states without the death penalty were consistently lower and averaged only 63% of the corresponding rates in the states retaining it."

"Another method is to follow the murder rate in a fixed state or jurisdiction and see what happened when capital punishment was abolished, and, in some cases, when it was reintroduced. Sellin and others did studies of this kind too. These investigations again failed to reveal any additional deterrent effect due to capital punishment.5"

[Warrior]

Originally Posted by Profit To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

You are reaching my friend. "Data from 1973 to 1984 show that murder rates in the states without the death penalty were consistently lower and averaged only 63% of the corresponding rates in the states retaining it." "Another method is to follow the murder rate in a fixed state or jurisdiction and see what happened when capital punishment was abolished, and, in some cases, when it was reintroduced. Sellin and others did studies of this kind too. These investigations again failed to reveal any additional deterrent effect due to capital punishment.5"

Any number of factors could account for this, but whether there is a deterrent effect or not doesn't matter. The point of capital punishment is just that - punishment. (It's not called capital deterrence.)

[Profit]

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During 2002, the latest year for which such data are available, there were 978 jail inmate deaths and 2,946 state prisoner deaths from all causes. During the same year, suicides accounted for 314 jail inmate deaths and 168 state prisoner deaths. Fewer than 50 deaths in either local jails (20) or state prisons (48) were homicides.
During 2002, there was a higher homicide rate among the U.S. resident population (6 per 100,000) than either in state prisons (4 per 100,000) or in local jails (3 per 100,000).
Most states had no prisoner homicides during the course of a year. Thirty-one states reported none during 2001. Twenty-nine states reported none during 2002. During the two-year period from 2001 through 2002, three states reported 43 percent of all prison murders -- California, 21; Texas, 10 and six in Maryland.

California, Texas, and Maryland all have or had capital punishment in 2002.





Profit added to this post, 1 minutes and 23 seconds later...

	Originally Posted by Warrior To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Any number of factors could account for this, but whether there is a deterrent effect or not doesn't matter. The point of capital punishment is just that - punishment. (It's not called capital deterrence.)

I am specifically arguing against Ray's statement that capital punishment is a deterrent. You should also read the entire report.

[hubcap]

Originally Posted by Profit To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

You are reaching my friend. "Data from 1973 to 1984 show that murder rates in the states without the death penalty were consistently lower and averaged only 63% of the corresponding rates in the states retaining it." "Another method is to follow the murder rate in a fixed state or jurisdiction and see what happened when capital punishment was abolished, and, in some cases, when it was reintroduced. Sellin and others did studies of this kind too. These investigations again failed to reveal any additional deterrent effect due to capital punishment.5"

One of the problems with these studies is that the average inmate spends over 10 years on Death Row before being executed. It isn't difficult to understand why the death penalty as currently used isn't much of a deterrant.

I believe that if the punishment were more swift there would be more of a deterrant effect.

However, it is certain that no person will ever commit another crime after they are executed, so they are certainly deterred from further crimes.

[Mogura]

	Originally Posted by Profit To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	"Data from 1973 to 1984 show that murder rates in the states without the death penalty were consistently lower and averaged only 63% of the corresponding rates in the states retaining it."

Interesting. I wonder if this is because states without the dealth penalty tend to be liberal, thus providing better social services and educational opportunities so that fewer individuals "slip through the cracks".

Perhaps I'm reaching, but I think pondering the why behind the statistical data is more important than the statistical data itself...

[Profit]

Originally Posted by hubcap To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

One of the problems with these studies is that the average inmate spends over 10 years on Death Row before being executed. It isn't difficult to understand why the death penalty as currently used isn't much of a deterrant. I believe that if the punishment were more swift there would be more of a deterrant effect. However, it is certain that no person will ever commit another crime after they are executed, so they are certainly deterred from further crimes.

Again, please read the entire report.


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[Valiyn]

Better to lock someone away and apologize to the innocent later for locking then up then kill anyone swiftly and be wrong about them being guilty. The death penalty should never be swift, nor should any passing of legal judgment be swift. Making the people afraid of the government/law isn't crime deterrence, it's oppressive rule. That is why we have a lengthy process, so we have less chance of inciting the guilty to punishment and to make sure everything is well established with evidence.

[Tyrant Soup]

Ethical and practical considerations should be argued separately. Do murderers deserve to die? Yes.

[Valiyn]

	Originally Posted by Tyrant Soup To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Do murderers deserve to die? Yes.

Why? Is there a statistical correlation between killing someone and a decline in how many people are killed by other people (murder)?

[Aronnax]

Nations without a death penalty have a lower per capita murder rate than nations with a death penalty. This indicates murder rate is more strongly related to cultural issues rather than a lack of punishment.

However, killing killers feels right so it's far more gratifying to focus on executions rather than the social issues that lie at the root of the problem. That's why you get posts talking about how important it is to "hang them by the neck until dead" rather than posts discussing "What are the socioeconomic conditions that created young men like this and what should we do to fix the problem?"

[Corbu]

	Originally Posted by Mogura To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	As for child rapists, I would support public beheadings...

Fixed it for you, you seem to have added a word. Although I would be tempted to remove "child" as well.

As for the alleged criminals, after a trial by their peers, if they are found guilty execution is acceptable.





Corbu added to this post, 23 minutes and 3 seconds later...

	Originally Posted by Aronnax To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Nations without a death penalty have a lower per capita murder rate than nations with a death penalty. This indicates murder rate is more strongly related to cultural issues rather than a lack of punishment.

Source?

	Originally Posted by Aronnax To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	However, killing killers feels right so it's far more gratifying to focus on executions rather than the social issues that lie at the root of the problem. That's why you get posts talking about how important it is to "hang them by the neck until dead" rather than posts discussing "What are the socioeconomic conditions that created young men like this and what should we do to fix the problem?"

The socio-economic conditions are the enabling, labeling and failing to hold people accountable for their actions. These "young men" do not have the same values as the rest of the inhabitants of their environment and choose to not adapt to the identified norms of the society, they had a choice, they committed a crime. Any attempt to shift the focus off of their horrendous act and place the liability back onto society is circular and non-productive.

[Warrior]

	Originally Posted by Valiyn To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Why? Is there a statistical correlation between killing someone and a decline in how many people are killed by other people (murder)?

Who cares. Once again, the purpose of punishment is ot punish, not to prevent other crimes. The only questions that matters is whether the death penalty is appropriate punishment for a particular crime.





Warrior added to this post, 3 minutes and 44 seconds later...

Originally Posted by Aronnax To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Nations without a death penalty have a lower per capita murder rate than nations with a death penalty. This indicates murder rate is more strongly related to cultural issues rather than a lack of punishment. However, killing killers feels right so it's far more gratifying to focus on executions rather than the social issues that lie at the root of the problem. That's why you get posts talking about how important it is to "hang them by the neck until dead" rather than posts discussing "What are the socioeconomic conditions that created young men like this and what should we do to fix the problem?"

If you want a thread about changing socioeconomic conditions that created young men (apparently women never commit crimes) and what should we do to fix the problem, I'm all for that. That question, however, is not relevent to the argument of whether the death penalty is appropriate punishment for those individuals that do commit crimes.