[TigerL]

Try volunteering for something you care about. Pick something with a scheduled time/ period of committment where you can be around the same people for a length of time. Some cities have programs where the same small group of people volunteer together in different activities so it's also a part social event.

For the outdoors part, look into groups like the Adironack Mountain Club or the Sierra Club, both of which have social groups classified by activity, singles, age group, etc.

It does get harder once you are out of university. I also like to take it slow and most of my past relationships developed from men I got to know over time, so I can see where you're coming from.

Oh, and this is hard for an INTJ, but socialize with people even if they aren't in your date-able category (e.g. way older than you, already married, etc.). I've had people in these categories introduce me to other people they know who are date-able.

[Blse]

Originally Posted by Shirley To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

If it's possible, you might consider taking an evening class. Maybe something with an even gender mix or even female dominated if possible. Perhaps study a new language in the evenings or take some art classes. Not only are you expanding your knowledge (last I checked, a very INTJ thing to do!) but you are placing yourself in a situation where you may meet someone of the opposite gender in a method suited to your relationship style. From there, you can check and see if any of these women are worth your time over the 4 months or 'roundabouts of class time.

How does this work for people who are in their mid 20s and up? Wouldn't most people in your class be way younger (a guy around 30 at a JC hitting on 'em youngns sounds a bit creepy IMO). But seriously are there courses specifically geared towards the "more mature audience?"

	It does get harder once you are out of university.

That's why I'm starting to feel under pressure here (not helpful at all). I think I'll start a thread on that, don't want to hi-jack this one...

[Seriously]

Have you tried speed dating? I was wondering about it....if it gives you enough time to project enough of your personality to suck them in..uumm I mean interest them.
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[AgentofGaming]

	Originally Posted by Causa Mortis To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	College is indeed the easiest possible place to meet people

Curious, what makes college the easiest? I can goto school the whole school year and only have to open my mouth 3 times which doesn't involve eating or "excuse me"... which is not much better than elsewhere.

[Mogura]

	Originally Posted by Seriously To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Have you tried speed dating? I was wondering about it....if it gives you enough time to project enough of your personality to suck them in..uumm I mean interest them. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Speed dating kinda goes against the whole "slow to get to know" thing, don't you think?

[countrygirl]

Originally Posted by Mogura To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

When it comes to relationships, romantic or otherwise, I firmly believe that knowing oneself is an essential step in the process. I mean, after all, if you don't know yourself, how do you know what you want (or don't want) out of the relationship--or life in general? Anyways, I know myself all too well and 2 facts are evident: 1. I am slow to get to know. 2. I have trust issues. Item number 2, I will have to work out on my own. Item number 1 seems to be more of an issue for others more than it is for myself (well, it is an issue for me in that sense). And it would probably would explain why first dates never turn into second dates, etc., etc. A lot of these women seem to (unrealistically) expect some magical chemistry or intense romantic attraction will be revealed in the course of the first date. If not, then that's it--no second date.... ....Has anyone been in this type of situation (slow to get to know/trust issues/lack of opportunities for meeting women)? How did you deal with it? Thank you...

When my husband was single, he consided himself "a slow hand with the women". In other words, slow to get to know. And it is tied in with the inability to trust. If you are not forthright in giving information, and I'm not talking about revealing every detail, people will think that you are not interested in them. And you will give off an impression of someone who is unapproachable. People also don't like to pull teeth on a date, they like to feel a connection with the other person. If women (and I generalize) don't get a spark or chemistry, you'll be friend zoned very quickly and as you stated, will not get a second/third date. My husband didn't date women beyond the 4th date if he felt that he didn't want to marry them.

When my husband and I met for the first time (after talking on the phone for a couple of weeks) there was chemistry. If the chemistry wasn't there, there wouldn't have been a marriage.

[TigerL]

	Originally Posted by Blse To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	That's why I'm starting to feel under pressure here (not helpful at all). I think I'll start a thread on that, don't want to hi-jack this one...

Blse, I might be totally off-base here but I get the impression from other posts you're still in your 20s. You have plenty of time. Continue to work on your career and earnings potential while improving your social skills/ appearance and getting out there and you will attract women. In current US society, men continue to attract women of different ages well into their 40s-50s (and beyond). If you want kids, you have more time to work with than women although there is some evidence that there is a higher risk of certain conditions like autism when the father is older.

(This is one aspect of life where I wish I were male instead of female. Yes, it's unfair but that's life.)

By classes, this could also mean cooking classes, dancing classes, sailing, etc.

[Autoptic]

	Originally Posted by TigerL To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Blse, I might be totally off-base here but I get the impression from other posts you're still in your 20s. You have plenty of time.

Time without is bad and against the point. Probability is decreasing, difficulty is increasing, and payoff is decreasing. They're are mental and emotional ramifications of frustration, loneliness, and just being alone that will worsen over time, possibly with permanent effects.

	Continue to work on your career and earnings potential while improving your social skills/ appearance and getting out there and you will attract women. In current US society, men continue to attract women of different ages well into their 40s-50s (and beyond).

But the age range of the women isn't increasing just moving which means they're getting older too at the same rate. This is bad. Inevitable, but it kind of blows the good old years when they weren't that good just old.

They idea wasn't to get the girl at some point but ASAP. Her value is only in the present and how much of that's happens to be left, which is less the longer it takes to get her. Time isn't improving anything but quite the opposite. It's not even potentially deepening the relationship here since there isn't one.

	If you want kids, you have more time to work with than women although there is some evidence that there is a higher risk of certain conditions like autism when the father is older. (This is one aspect of life where I wish I were male instead of female. Yes, it's unfair but that's life.)

You do know men's sexual ability and experience degrade with aging right? There's also the matter of being strongly visually stimulated when you're partner's visual is degrading. Kid specific—the man's advanced age can have negative effects on either end of the experience.

Bad news is one thing I'm good at.

[Zhen]

I am the same as you, OP. Don't worry about it. These things if they're going to happen will happen. Of course it's easier for me to say as a female. However if you see someone you might like don't presume just ask...guts pay off more often than not
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[Seriously]

	Originally Posted by Mogura To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Speed dating kinda goes against the whole "slow to get to know" thing, don't you think?

I don't know that is why I was asking if anyone had tried it. I'm not sure if they prep you before or if you just go cold turkey. And how long you get and if you go back a few times or just once.

[TigerL]

Autoptic, you're right I wrote what I wrote with some assumptions about what type of relationship Blse (or others) was seeking. Guess I'll wait for Blse's thread for what the definition of "pressure" is.

In terms of women age range moving or your partner's "visuals", I'm always glad to hear that men are interested in dating women near their own age but am well aware of men who date women much younger than themselves. Yes, we hear about "cougars" but the older man/ younger woman relationship is much more common.

[Mogura]

	Originally Posted by Seriously To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I don't know that is why I was asking if anyone had tried it. I'm not sure if they prep you before or if you just go cold turkey. And how long you get and if you go back a few times or just once.

A friend of mine did it. He described it as being a game of musical chairs with 40 people (20 men, 20 women), except less exciting. You sit around a table, boy-girl-boy-girl-etc. configuration, someone rings a bell, and you've got 3 minutes to get to know the person sitting next to you. In getting to know the person, you can ask your own questions, or you can use the suggested ones. Bell rings, gents all stand up, move down one chair, and the process repeats. (Remember, this is done 20 times, so if you're not a fan of small talk or banal getting-to-know-you questions, you're in for a ride!) All the while, you make a list of your top 5 picks, to be submitted at the end of the whole affair. Someone gathers up all of the lists, and couples interested in each other are identified. You might have been picked by the person you felt a connection with, or you might have not. Assuming you score, then you get to go on a date with that person--which is up to you to arrange, etc.

Again, if you're slow to get to know, or you're the type of person who "grows on people" then you might be at a disadvantage in this type of setting...

[Causa Mortis]

	Originally Posted by AgentofGaming To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Curious, what makes college the easiest? I can goto school the whole school year and only have to open my mouth 3 times which doesn't involve eating or "excuse me"... which is not much better than elsewhere.

On a large campus you see about 400-500 attractive women every day. Probably half are single, half of what's left are marginally attached. You have something in common with them, and you have very, very easy openers with them like "Hey aren't you in my ______ class" and "Hey I know you aren't you an econ major? Oh my mistake, what's your major?"

It doesn't get any easier than that.





Causa Mortis added to this post, 4 minutes and 46 seconds later...

	Originally Posted by Mogura To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Again, if you're slow to get to know, or you're the type of person who "grows on people" then you might be at a disadvantage in this type of setting...

You can learn to "grow on people" - its called "projecting your personality." The extremely charismatic develop these skills (ie JFK spent the latter half of his life obsessing on how to cultivate movie-star like charisma, Clinton and Obama likely did the same)

I personally have not tried speed dating, but I might. I think that a) I'd do very well in this setting and b) it'd be a great chance to work on managing your first impression skills, which are critical for many forms of relationship-building.

Interpersonal skills are just like any other - they get better with practice and being aware of mistakes.

[JohnDoe]

	Originally Posted by Causa Mortis To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	You can learn to "grow on people" - its called "projecting your personality." I personally have not tried speed dating, but I might. I think that a) I'd do very well in this setting and b) it'd be a great chance to work on managing your first impression skills, which are critical for many forms of relationship-building.

Just because your shallow doesn't mean that everyone else in the world is. First impression skills are a great way to take command of a business situation. Doesn't work so well when your looking for more then a one night stand.

[Causa Mortis]

	Originally Posted by JohnDoe To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Just because your shallow doesn't mean that everyone else in the world is. First impression skills are a great way to take command of a business situation. Doesn't work so well when your looking for more then a one night stand.

A) How am I shallow?
B) Who says I am looking for one night stands?
C) Why are you threatened by my posts?
D) What in the world does this have to do with anything?
E) How is it shallow to learn to smile, be witty and charming, learn to quickly establish rapport, etc? The only forms of depth are frowning moodiness?

[JohnDoe]

	Originally Posted by Causa Mortis To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	A) How am I shallow? B) Who says I am looking for one night stands? C) Why are you threatened by my posts? D) What in the world does this have to do with anything?

The idea that you think that it is possible to learn to "grow on people" to solve the problem is de facto a shallow position. It implies that someone who is hard to get to know is "broken" and that the fix is to learn some skills. There is no inherent reason to believe this is the case. I'm not happy with your posts because it makes it sound like there is something inherantly wrong with Mogura. It is not clear from the information provided that this is the case. In particular why would Mogura want to learn to give certain impressions very quickly if they are not associated with his actual personality? The only reason to do so would be cheap hookups. How good you are at interpersonal relationships is entirely independent from how easily people can get to know you. And I prefer people who are hard to get to know for one, they actually have depth of character unlike people who are easy to get to know.

[daydreamer]

	Originally Posted by Autoptic To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	But the age range of the women isn't increasing just moving which means they're getting older too at the same rate. This is bad. Inevitable, but it kind of blows the good old years when they weren't that good just old.

not bad. being stuck in how you think is bad. older is better in many, many case. i aint saying that 'cuz i'm old. i'm saying that 'cuz it's true.

apart from that, i know a lot of guys your age who have trouble relating to those their age. if you're more mature than many your age, you'll have a better time of it when they catch up a bit
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	Originally Posted by Autoptic To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	You do know men's sexual ability and experience degrade with aging right? There's also the matter of being strongly visually stimulated when you're partner's visual is degrading. Kid specific—the man's advanced age can have negative effects on either end of the experience.

what you don't know about men and women is a lot. for one, aging has a lot of pleasant surprises in store for you, yes autoptic, even you
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[JohnDoe]

	Originally Posted by Causa Mortis To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	E) How is it shallow to learn to smile, be witty and charming, learn to quickly establish rapport, etc? The only forms of depth are frowning moodiness?

Because quickly establishing rapport has nothing to do with making romantic connections.

[Causa Mortis]

	Originally Posted by JohnDoe To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	The idea that you think that it is possible to learn to "grow on people" to solve the problem is de facto a shallow position.

He's saying he's at a disadvantage in that position. He is, but only because he's choosing to be. He has the option to change, or to continue to wallow in the fact that he has some disadvantages.

	In particular why would Mogura want to learn to give certain impressions very quickly if they are not associated with his actual personality?

Show me the part where I suggested generating inauthentic impressions. Unless you consier smiling, putting people at ease, and landing an effective joke here and there necessarily inauthentic.

	The only reason to do so would be cheap hookups.

Unquestioned assumption with no supporting rationale or evidence. Charisma puts people in a position of interest and comfort and makes establishing any form of relationship easier - business relationships, friendships, romantic relationships, hookups.

As supporting evidence, I'll offer JFK as an example. Everyone who knew him considered him likable, funny, self-assured, and generally a pleasure to be around. This constructively influenced his relationships with, well, everyone and in a variety of types of relationships - I'll mention a group as heterogenous as Robert McNamara, Curtis LeMay, LBJ, Nikita Kruschev, Jacqueline Onassis, and Marilyn Monroe. They all liked him personally, even if they clashed with him professionally and resented him. This charisma was largely developed.

Contrast him with the genius guy who never talks to anyone in class or elsewhere, or the guy on the subway who people all move away from - is their lack of charisma helping establish relationships that further whatever their goals are, or is this indulgence of social anxiety killing them? I'm going with the latter.

	How good you are at interpersonal relationships is entirely independent from how easily people can get to know you.

Unquestioned assumption with no supporting rationale or evidence. And its self-rationalizing, so I'm not going to touch it.

	And I prefer people who are hard to get to know for one, they actually have depth of character unlike people who are easy to get to know.

The second half of this is again an unquestioned assumption with no supporting rationale or evidence. Some people have layers. Having charisma does not indicate a lack of depth, merely that what's on the surface puts people at ease and is generally likable. I don't know why this is objectionable, unless this somehow strikes a personal chord.

As for the need to litter your ineffective posts with ad homs, carry on, but I won't respond to them.
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[JohnDoe]

	Originally Posted by Causa Mortis To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	He's saying he's at a disadvantage in that position. He is, but only because he's choosing to be. He has the option to change, or to continue to wallow in the fact that he has some disadvantages.

Yes, but I don't think the OP wants the answer of "be completely fake" for the question.

	Show me the part where I suggested generating inauthentic impressions. Unless you consier smiling, putting people at ease, and landing an effective joke here and there necessarily inauthentic.

Because you can do all of those things and still be hard to get to know. Rapport is a necessarily but not sufficient condition for romantic connections. On the other hand it is a sufficient connection for cheap hookups.

	Unquestioned assumption with no supporting rationale or evidence. Charisma puts people in a position of interest and comfort and makes establishing any form of relationship easier - business relationships, friendships, romantic relationships, hookups.

Sure. But its not clear that the problem here stems from lack of charisma. Charisma in it self is not sufficient for romantic connections. You still have the intangible connection that you need if you want more then a cheap hookup. Love is not this rational thing where you just go down some checklist and oh hey everything checks I guess I love her.

	Unquestioned assumption with no supporting rationale or evidence. And its self-rationalizing, so I'm not going to touch it.

Right anything that disagrees with the sacred INTJ logic worldview is crap

	The second half of this is again an unquestioned assumption with no supporting rationale or evidence. Some people have layers. Having charisma does not indicate a lack of depth, merely that what's on the surface puts people at ease and is generally likable. I don't know why this is objectionable, unless this somehow strikes a personal chord.

No but charisma alone does not produce relationships. So unless you are proposing he be charismatic and deceptive, its not clear that this is necessarily a solution.

[Causa Mortis]

	Originally Posted by JohnDoe To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Yes, but I don't think the OP wants the answer of "be completely fake" for the question.

Straw man. Charisma in my book does not require "being completely fake". JFK never struck me as inauthentic (except perhaps when going for cheap hookups), yet he oozed a charm that facilitated meaningful and successful relationships in every area of his life.

	Because you can do all of those things and still be hard to get to know. Rapport is a necessarily but not sufficient condition for romantic connections. On the other hand it is a sufficient connection for cheap hookups.

If its necessary but not sufficient, and you're lacking the necessary condition, you're going nowhere. You've got to have the necessary condition to even consider the sufficient.

	Sure. But its not clear that the problem here stems from lack of charisma. Charisma in it self is not sufficient for romantic connections. You still have the intangible connection that you need if you want more then a cheap hookup. Love is not this rational thing where you just go down some checklist and oh hey everything checks I guess I love her.

I agree - but if you're so low on the charisma-o-meter that the other sex won't take the time to get to know you, I'm thinking that your best bet for relationships is to up the charm a bit.

	No but charisma alone does not produce relationships. So unless you are proposing he be charismatic and deceptive, its not clear that this is necessarily a solution.

You stated yourself that its a necessary but not sufficient condition. I don't see how more flirty smiles, more jokes, and more upbeat conversations are going to hurt him, nor how do I see how they're inauthentic, unless depression is an integral part of his identity.

[JohnDoe]

	Originally Posted by Causa Mortis To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I agree - but if you're so low on the charisma-o-meter that the other sex won't take the time to get to know you, I'm thinking that your best bet for relationships is to up the charm a bit.

Your making a pretty big assumption that is in fact the problem here. I haven't seen anything in the posts that suggests it is. So why don't you elaborate on why you think this charisma issue is the problem as opposed to my theory which is that charisma probably has nothing to do with it, whereas not trusting enough may.

[Causa Mortis]

	Originally Posted by JohnDoe To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Your making a pretty big assumption that is in fact the problem here. I haven't seen anything in the posts that suggests it is. So why don't you elaborate on why you think this charisma issue is the problem as opposed to my theory which is that charisma probably has nothing to do with it, whereas not trusting enough may.

Item number 1 seems to be more of an issue for others more than it is for myself (well, it is an issue for me in that sense). And it would probably would explain why first dates never turn into second dates, etc., etc. A lot of these women seem to (unrealistically) expect some magical chemistry or intense romantic attraction will be revealed in the course of the first date. If not, then that's it--no second date. I am not handsome or a fashionista by any measure, so I know that I cannot rely on my physical appearance to be "the pull". That's fine, I've got other tricks up my sleeve, namely being warm, confident, easy-going, and witty, and presenting myself as the balanced individual that I am. Plus, I've been there, done that, so I've always got stories to tell. Despite all of my self-professed warmth and cultivated self worth, I am slow to get to know. I liken the discovery of my personality to the peeling of the layers of an onion--a process that requires time, effort, and patience. And it's not as if you're going to find an unpleasant surprise if you keep peeling--there's no dark pith or evil little worm sitting at the core, just onion. *Sigh* These women all seem to want a roller coaster ride that I just can't give; I'm not into roller coasters. Now, if they want a log ride, that's a different story.

Indicates:
1. Doesn't have pull in regards to fashion or physical presence
2. Indicates that he presents self as "balanced." My guess is that's seen as "boring and takes no interpersonal risks."
3. "These women all seem to want a roller coaster ride that I just can't give; I'm not into roller coasters." - Yet again a sign that boredom on the part of the dates
4. The dates verbalizing that they don't feel chemistry with him. This is the most obvious example.

None of this is cause for distress. Charisma comes naturally for very few people, and the very best work very, very hard to develop it.

[JohnDoe]

Originally Posted by Causa Mortis To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Indicates: 1. Doesn't have pull in regards to fashion or physical presence 2. Indicates that he presents self as "balanced." My guess is that's seen as "boring and takes no interpersonal risks." 3. "These women all seem to want a roller coaster ride that I just can't give; I'm not into roller coasters." - Yet again a sign that boredom on the part of the dates 4. The dates verbalizing that they don't feel chemistry with him. This is the most obvious example. None of this is cause for distress. Charisma comes naturally for very few people, and the very best work very, very hard to develop it.

See I managed to read
1) Average guy wrt fashion
2) yeah ok that may be an issue.
3) Doesn't like drama
4) I want to know if he feels chemistry with these people. Not feeling chemistry with someone is not necessarily indicative of poor charisma it can also be poor targeting.

[Dru]

i'm very guarded. it seems silly, but knowing that doesn't help anything; mentally, i feel like a turtle without a shell, a fish out of water if i'm in a position of even the slightest vulnerability.

fighting the urge to draw back into myself is like trying to breath in space.