[SuperBenjamin]

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The interview took place in 1985

Folks please air your opinion, is this what is happening to America now? Or is this total BS?

[gestalt]

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is a good place to start digging down into this.

[schwartzie]

sure. read about milton friedman, the Chicago School of Economics, and about neo con political theory. This amoral theory has been applied in many many places, including the US, so ... if you are looking, it's not hard to see how the theory plays out in practice.

[lincoln]

This is a great video thanks for sharing. Let me think about this...I can tell you that living in this country is a struggle for me every day. I just want to leave, I can't stand university, I can't stand listening to people, I can't stand most everything. I look around me and I get so freaked out. I can't connect to the world I live in. We are being bred to be servants, sheep. There is so much info out there. Alex jones is on a.m. radio, he talks about how our country is being degraded every day...there are a lot of others out there though. Alex is great though.

[eagleseven]

	Originally Posted by schwartzie To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	sure. read about milton friedman, the Chicago School of Economics, and about neo con political theory. This amoral theory has been applied in many many places, including the US, so ... if you are looking, it's not hard to see how the theory plays out in practice.

You do realize that the Chicago School of Economics is the antithesis of the Marxist subterfuge of which the ex-KGB agent speaks in the video? I don't think any of you watched the video at all.

[Aronnax]

	Originally Posted by eagleseven To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	You do realize that the Chicago School of Economics is the antithesis of the Marxist subterfuge of which the ex-KGB agent speaks in the video? I don't think any of you watched the video at all.

Subversion isn't unique to a particular economic system.

The sequence for infulence in that video were:

Demoralization

Destabilization

Crisis

Normalization


This sequence has been repeatedly used in Central and South America to create Governments friendly to US policies and corporations. Chile comes to mind, so does Honduras and El Salvador. Google the "School of the Americas" if you want to read about what we've done in the name of the free market.

[schwartzie]

exactly, Aron.
Eagle, cynic that I am.... I see totalitarian/authoritarian as an independent variable, not synchronous with a simple right/left, capitalism/communism political label. (so, for example, the chinese brand of state capitalism scares the hell out of me.)

[Causa Mortis]

	Originally Posted by SuperBenjamin To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Folks please air your opinion, is this what is happening to America now? Or is this total BS?

Yes, it is paranoid-delusional crap with no basis in fact. About as credible as your "increasing manufacturing is what pulled us out of the gr8 dpression" quasi-argument.

[Ray9]

I'm astounded at some of the responses. These poor souls don't even realize they fit the mold perfectly. All they can do is regurgitate what they have been fed. It's frightening.

[Causa Mortis]

	Originally Posted by Ray9 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I'm astounded at some of the responses. These poor souls don't even realize they fit the mold perfectly. All they can do is regurgitate what they have been fed. It's frightening.

No, u.

Present evidence, facts, theories, concepts, not just mindless conjecture and then scream "YOU ARE BRAINWASHED BECAUSE YOU DON"T SHARE MY PARANOID PERSONALITY DISORDER"

[hubcap]

	Originally Posted by Causa Mortis To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Yes, it is paranoid-delusional crap with no basis in fact.

Do you have facts to support your postion on this?

[SuperBenjamin]

	Present evidence, facts, theories, concepts, not just mindless conjecture and then scream "YOU ARE BRAINWASHED BECAUSE YOU DON"T SHARE MY PARANOID PERSONALITY DISORD

Well this is the whole point of the thread. It is to get your kind opinions to have a rough idea what you guys think and know. I am not sure why are you so emotional about me suggesting a not so popular theory to discuss as if it is a lash against your ego.

I said "theory" which is open for approval AND disapproval. The way you respond is making this theory at least a bit more credible though. But thanks for your responds its a good accompanying example in this thread.

[blueback]

Is it not significant to anyone else that the KGB's plan obviously didn't work? Or do you think that the KGB is still trying to carry out this plan and is now meeting with more success? Or do you think that someone else is copying the KGB's plan?

The process he described sounds a lot like what the neocons figured out. They realized that the best way to change the rules somewhere is to wait for a crisis to destabilize the system, then rush in with "aid", then rebuild the system in your own image before any locals can get back on their feet, then refuse to leave. Once a system solidifies it is hard to change, so you wait for a crisis to unsolidify it. The neocons simply realized that you can engineer a crisis instead of waiting for one.

Of course, the neocons got all the power they could hope for, and screwed up so badly that they turned the country over to a first-term minority senator. That's a pretty scathing indictment of their policies, IMHO. When America collectively says that they'd rather give the weird looking newbie a shot than stick with more of the same, you know you've pushed things way too far. The fun thing was that I got to tell my dad "told ya so" because he was really worried about the neocons, and I said they'd dig their own graves, so boo-ya!

[Causa Mortis]

Originally Posted by SuperBenjamin To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Well this is the whole point of the thread. It is to get your kind opinions to have a rough idea what you guys think and know. I am not sure why are you so emotional about me suggesting a not so popular theory to discuss as if it is a lash against your ego. I said "theory" which is open for approval AND disapproval. The way you respond is making this theory at least a bit more credible though. But thanks for your responds its a good accompanying example in this thread.

Its conjecture that's alleging ridiculous overarching conspiracy. If you're going to accuse someone of something outrageous, you need to "prove it" in some capacity, not just throw unsubstantiated negative comments out there and then expect everyone to buy into them because SuperBenjamin says so.

Then again, this is the second thread in which you've trashed someone or something with absolutely no basis whatsoever in fact, and then complained that we're small minded for not buying it.

	Originally Posted by Hubcap
	Do you have facts to support your postion on this?

The burden of proof lies with the accuser. Particularly when the accusations aren't supported by, oh, rationale or evidence.

[eagleseven]

	Originally Posted by blueback To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Is it not significant to anyone else that the KGB's plan obviously didn't work? Or do you think that the KGB is still trying to carry out this plan and is now meeting with more success? Or do you think that someone else is copying the KGB's plan?

It has been over 20 years since the USSR collapsed, yet socialism has never been more popular.

The European Union is ruled by social democrats, the communist Chavez is slowly converting all of South America (Zelaya in Honduras etc.), and the communist regimes of Southeast Asia have never been stronger.

Even in America, during this past election the people cried out for big government (IE socialism) to save them, and our President seeks to nationalize another 13% of our GDP. Worse still, our President believes and preaches the old Soviet lines about America's evil kapitalist past.


All this, despite the collapse of the USSR two decades ago. If the CIA was attempting to counter the KGB with free-market propaganda, they've failed miserably.

I'd say the KGB plan was damned effective, and we're still seeing its long-term effects. Perhaps this is why all the Eastern European immigrants I know are very upset at the way our country is changing?

[cruiseingheart]

	I'd say the KGB plan was damned effective, and we're still seeing its long-term effects. Perhaps this is why all the Eastern European immigrants I know are very upset at the way our country is changing? 10-01-2009 08:39 PM

Very true! I do belive I have seen this over and over again especially in hte US and UK.

	Present evidence, facts, theories, concepts, not just mindless conjecture and then scream "YOU ARE BRAINWASHED BECAUSE YOU DON"T SHARE MY PARANOID PERSONALITY DISORDER"

When I was told about this stuff I did not belive it but I looked into it my self and did some deep research I did not just watch a few videos and called it a day I read books and spoke to skeptics and belivers and looked at other internet resources. What i found out was some of conspracy theories are true. I don't think it is possible to prove everything by fact. But I have found enougth facts to belive some of these conspircy theories are conspiracy facts.
I try to explain this to a friend of mine who does not belive me when I tell him this stuff. Yet he is the one who does not belive that man acually landed on the moon!

[Crazyblue]

I think that it's a little too much credit to give any specific organization. An interview with a traitor doesn't really rank very high up in my list of 'creditable sources' and 'how' the KGB accomplished the goal of indoctrinating people isn't really mentioned. The trend towards socialism doesn't mean that it was engineered by anyone specifically, it's more of a natural reaction of people during a depression to want to make sure that primary needs are met even if you lost a job or something.

I'm looking at the clip again, it was a few days before I got around to the first part of this post. He skips right over what exactly is done and just says how he was surprised it went so fast. There is no way to measure the validity of the situations that he presents since he doesn't really provide evidence/examples to judge if they did ANYTHING AT ALL. Is there any reason to take this seriously?

[Conservationist]

No one needs to infiltrate this place.

People like to believe easy, convenient lies and they'll tear it apart on their own.

[eagleseven]

Originally Posted by Crazyblue To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I think that it's a little too much credit to give any specific organization. An interview with a traitor doesn't really rank very high up in my list of 'creditable sources' and 'how' the KGB accomplished the goal of indoctrinating people isn't really mentioned. The trend towards socialism doesn't mean that it was engineered by anyone specifically, it's more of a natural reaction of people during a depression to want to make sure that primary needs are met even if you lost a job or something.

How does this happen? The Political Scientist and Marxist
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described the process as a "Long March Through the Institutions."

Formally, it is known as
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, and it describes the need for a "Cultural War" over the values of a society. In order to convert a hardened Capitalist society to Communism, Gramsci argues, leftists must work to ingrain socialist values into the society through its cultural institutions.

Thus, the KGB funded all manner of leftist activism in the US from the late 1950s until the fall of the Soviet Union. As a result, the large majority of our institutions of higher education, media, Hollywood, and the intellectual class espouse socialist values. At my University alone, there are dozens of courses teaching the evils of the "Consumerist Society."

"Every American has the right to healthcare."
"Profitable companies are evil."
"Wallstreet Capitalists are the source of our social problems."

All these beliefs were unheard of in the US during the 1950s, but today, they are commonly-accepted truths among our cultural leaders (actors, directors, artists, academics). This movement has culminated in the election of an American President celebrated by communist leaders the world over. Yes we can!


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More recently, millionaire Michael Moore released a film that directly calls for the overthrow of our Capitalist system:


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Would such a film's release even been possible 30 years ago? Our society has changed.

[schwartzie]

	Originally Posted by eagleseven To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	... "Every American has the right to healthcare." "Profitable companies are evil." "Wallstreet Capitalists are the source of our social problems." All these beliefs were unheard of in the US during the 1950s, but today, they are commonly-accepted truths among our cultural leaders (actors, directors, artists, academics).

Values such as these (mostly the latter two) were at the core of of the labor movement, which, in the US was growing from the turn of the century until about the 1950's. Since then growth has been stagnant or in decline. Health care has a more complicated history.

	This movement has culminated in the election of an American President celebrated by communist leaders the world over. ...

and celebrated by non-communist leaders and citizens the world over; it doesn't take much to be better than the neocons....

[eagleseven]

	Originally Posted by schwartzie To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Values such as these (mostly the latter two) were at the core of of the labor movement, which, in the US was growing from the turn of the century until about the 1950's.

The modern labor movement has its origins in the socialist movement of Germany in the late 1800s. I did not single them out for the simple reason that modern unions are the leftist activists I mentioned above.


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	Originally Posted by schwartzie To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	and celebrated by non-communist leaders and citizens the world over; it doesn't take much to be better than the neocons....

Not so much. Obama has been upsetting our allies, as of late:


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Still, why exactly would a murdering dictator like Hugo Chavez praise Obama?

[blueback]

	Originally Posted by eagleseven To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	...All this, despite the collapse of the USSR two decades ago...I'd say the KGB plan was damned effective, and we're still seeing its long-term effects.

It sounds to me like you've combined the fact that a powerful, shadowy organization stated a goal, and that you can interpret the current situation as being closer to that goal than when the powerful, shadowy organization first stated it, and concluded that all the change between then and now was (is) under the control of that powerful, shadowy organization. That's why it's called a conspiracy theory; because it's easy to say "the KGB did it" instead of admitting the world is a lot more complicated than that.

The problem with conspiracy theories is that no one can ever explain why one powerful, shadowy organization is more successful than another. If conspiracies are so successful, then wouldn't a counter-conspiracy be equally successful? And if two competing conspiracies would be equally successful, then wouldn't they just cancel each other out?

	Originally Posted by schwartzie To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	...it doesn't take much to be better than the neocons....

Very true. I don't think it would have mattered who was running against the Republicans.

But, more on conspiracy theories.

Here's what really bothers me about them. Things like this "national brainwashing" idea are all well and good. Maybe it is possible to brainwash an entire nation. But how is it done? It isn't enough to just point to someone who said they wanted to do it, and then point to things that make it look like it's happening, to convince me you'll have to demonstrate that you understand the mechanism. I'm okay with the idea that you can understand it and I can't, but if you understand it you should be able to explain it pretty well, and should even be able to provide some specific predictions that will prove you understand how the process works.

The key idea, to me, is that I don't see anything happening that can't be explained by the simple fact that people are incompetent.

That is directly opposed to the core concept of all conspiracy theories, which is that people are infinitely competent. That is the basic idea that all explanations of conspiracies must rely upon. Like the idea that the US government is competent enough to hide and suppress evidence of aliens for decades. I don't buy it. No one, especially not a group of someones, is that competent. Secrets are only kept by dead men. The idea that hundreds or thousands of people can all keep the same secret year after year is absurd. Or at least requires a profound change in my understanding of how people work.

Back to the idea that people are incompetent. That neatly explains why people get so attached to absurd ideas. If we imagine that there are two things in existence, people and reality, then all interactions are between people and reality. Reality is consistent; it can't be anything but perfectly consistent. It is what it is. People, on the other hand, routinely do their best to challenge reality. When they are forced to confront reality, they realize they are wrong, and they become more realistic. When they are free from confronting reality, their delusions are safe, and they become less realistic. If there is one defining element of the past couple generations it is that they have had no significant war to fight. Without a massive destruction of value to deal with and rebuild from, the people of the West have suffered from the same fate as all spoiled children: they are incredibly self-centered.

Being massively selfish is a form of incompetence. What better metaphor is there for socialism than a petulant child demanding their parents give them what they want? The child doesn't care where the things they want come from, or what they cost, or what happens to them after their interest has waned. All they know is that there is enough that it is easier for their parent to just give it to them than to deal with the inevitable tantrum. Now imagine an entire house full of spoiled children, each demanding the share of what is available that they feel they are entitled to. And since they are each the most important snow flake in the room, whenever they see another child get anything they immediately demand more.

That scenario (metaphorical as it is) quite easily explains the current state of the world. No powerful, shadowy organizations required. Just people doing what they normally do: act as short-sightedly as the situation will allow.

[schwartzie]

	Originally Posted by eagleseven To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	This movement has culminated in the election of an American President celebrated by communist leaders the world over.

Norwegians are actually (secretly) communists--
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I'm pretty sure.

Either that or they are saying more about their feelings regarding the recently defeated president and his crew than about the incoming one (who has not been in office long enough to have much of a track record).

[eagleseven]

	Originally Posted by schwartzie To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Norwegians are actually (secretly) communists-- To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. I'm pretty sure. Either that or they are saying more about their feelings regarding the recently defeated president and his crew than about the incoming one (who has not been in office long enough to have much of a track record).

Nothing "secret" about Norway's socialism; they are quite proud of it. You act like it is some conspiracy, when in fact it is common knowledge to anyone with a basic understanding of European politics.

Norway is ruled by the
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, a Social Democrat party and full member of the
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. See also the
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.


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eagleseven added to this post, 13 minutes and 19 seconds later...

Originally Posted by blueback To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

It sounds to me like you've combined the fact that a powerful, shadowy organization stated a goal, and that you can interpret the current situation as being closer to that goal than when the powerful, shadowy organization first stated it, and concluded that all the change between then and now was (is) under the control of that powerful, shadowy organization. That's why it's called a conspiracy theory; because it's easy to say "the KGB did it" instead of admitting the world is a lot more complicated than that.

Complicated? An 80-year plan of political and cultural subterfuge involving dozens of countries with the ultimate goal of creating a one-world socialist paradise is the simple answer? The KGB was not pulling the strings like a puppeteer, but rather simply funded the
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, as Lenin put it. This is undeniable fact.

Only now, the useful idiots are in Congress.


To completely deny the effect Soviet influence had upon the world is both naive and overly idealistic.

	Originally Posted by blueback To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	The problem with conspiracy theories is that no one can ever explain why one powerful, shadowy organization is more successful than another. If conspiracies are so successful, then wouldn't a counter-conspiracy be equally successful? And if two competing conspiracies would be equally successful, then wouldn't they just cancel each other out?

To borrow your terms, the "counter-conspiracy" was equally successful, as seen by the rapid Capitalist globalization of the 1990s and early 2000s. There is no globalization in a Soviet world.

This is why leftists across the globe decry globalism and attack WTO conferences. The battle between capitalism and socialism is still with us, despite the passing of the USSR.

Perhaps you are the one with the simplistic worldview?

[blueback]

A counter-conspiracy would be one directly opposed to the original conspiracy. So, if a powerful, shadowy organization decided to convert the United States to a socialist/communist/hippie-love-fest/whatever utopia, then a counter to that would be a powerful, shadowy organization trying to make the United States into something not that. That's what "counter" means.

Anywho, are you saying there were two conspiracies? The KGB trying to spread socialism, and [blank] trying to spread capitalism (or globalism?)? And, are you saying that they both succeeded? It sounds like you are. Does that mean the places that were strongly capitalist are now more socialist, and the places that were strongly socialist are now more capitalist? Or does that mean the places that were strongly capitalist are now strongly socialist, and the places that were strongly socialist are now strongly capitalist? I suppose the problem I'm having understanding your conspiracy theory is that you have now added a second, interacting conspiracy theory. Are there any more?

Beyond that. . .is there anything in the world (according to your world view) that doesn't happen as the direct result of a conspiracy?

I have a problem with your idea that things as vague and arbitrarily monolithic as "socialism" or "globalization" are under the direct control of anyone. Just because someone wants them, doesn't mean they have anything at all to do with them actually happening. It becomes especially hard to substantiate when the "things" that are "happening" are so hard to define.

But, hey, if it makes you feel better to say that "it" happened because the KGB (and dozens of countries?) threw money at it, then go ahead.