[curiousgeorge01]

Originally Posted by firebee To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

"But but that touchy woman! She had only turned me down twice a day for the past month! How was I to know that she didn't want to date me?" It would be helpful to come up with an actual example of a man who was successfully sued for making overt sexual advances on one occasion to a woman who was not his coworker, customer, student, et cetera. For the joy of anecdotal evidence, I can note that the two most recent men who initiated overt sexual advances with me ultimately got laid, whereas the two men who I have come closest to taking official action about conducted a string of mocking or creepy advances (respectively) over the course of an significant period of time which ultimately got to the point of talking at the back of the head of a person who was completely ignoring them in favor of conducting the business that they had come to the office or store (respectively) to do. I'm thinking it just might be possible to discern the difference between "unambiguous" and "howlingly inappropriate" well enough that the species is not in danger of dying off.

I don't think it's so much of a man being sued as much as the social ramifications. I once gave up an office romance even though girl heavily hinted because it can be seen as sexual harassment and I didn't want to risk it for either of us. She was all ambiguous about even though she heavily hinted; playing hard to get.

I don't know if it's only a problem with me, but the biggest problem I have with women is their PERCEPTION of things. Somehow jerks and criminals can get laid if he can get the woman to perceive him as being decent (not that the guys you laid are assholes, I'm just saying) and men get blamed if women perceive someone of interest who in reality is an asshole. I feel like for women, in relationships, they don't think about the ramifications as long as the men can guide them or trick them into feeling wanted. Again, I have no solid evidence of this, but it is what I have noticed. Meanwhile I'm sure there are some decent men out there who can't get women to perceive them that way and it's frustrating for a lot of them; it's almost like trying to figure out a secret language and they can't bridge women's perception with the reality of who they are, while other guys can keep feeding perceptions and get away with it.

If you want a recent example look at Anne Hathway. She went out with her guy for like years and once he was caught by the FBI, THEN did she break up with him. It's like really? You had NO IDEA he was a criminal? Please...

[IrishGuy]

Originally Posted by curiousgeorge01 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I don't think it's so much of a man being sued as much as the social ramifications. I once gave up an office romance even though girl heavily hinted because it can be seen as sexual harassment and I didn't want to risk it for either of us. She was all ambiguous about even though she heavily hinted; playing hard to get. I don't know if it's only a problem with me, but the biggest problem I have with women is their PERCEPTION of things. Somehow jerks and criminals can get laid if he can get the woman to perceive him as being decent (not that the guys you laid are assholes, I'm just saying) and men get blamed if women perceive someone of interest who in reality is an asshole. I feel like for women, in relationships, they don't think about the ramifications as long as the men can guide them or trick them into feeling wanted. Again, I have no solid evidence of this, but it is what I have noticed. Meanwhile I'm sure there are some decent men out there who can't get women to perceive them that way and it's frustrating for a lot of them; it's almost like trying to figure out a secret language and they can't bridge women's perception with the reality of who they are, while other guys can keep feeding perceptions and get away with it. If you want a recent example look at Anne Hathway. She went out with her guy for like years and once he was caught by the FBI, THEN did she break up with him. It's like really? You had NO IDEA he was a criminal? Please...

Here's a pretty good example, I think.....

( Show Spoiler )

Date: 05/30/2008
From: Safety Alert, UCI Police Department
To: Emergency Communication List
Re: Sexual Assault on Thursday, May 29, 2008


On Thursday, May 29, 2008, a female UCI student was waiting out in
front of Langson Library late in the afternoon when she was approached
by a young man. He introduced himself as "Danny", a student from
another (unknown) school. Danny and the UCI student talked in front
of Langson Library for two hours. Danny then suggested they visit the
Anteater Pub to eat or drink and they walked over to the Pub at
7:30pm.

While at the Anteater Pub, they continued talking and consumed several
beers each (no food). At 9:30pm, the female student was tired and
told Danny she had to go home; Danny offered her a ride and she
accepted. They walked to Danny's car in Parking Lot #1. Danny's car
is only described as silver in color (no further description). Danny
drove the female student out of Parking Lot #1 and made a hasty turn
into Parking Lot 3-A (adjacent to the Merage School of Business and
across from the Social Science Parking Structure). The parking lot
was empty. The female objected and asked why he had turned into the
empty parking lot; Danny told the victim he wanted to talk some more.

Once parked in Lot 3-A, the student and Danny talked for another hour
or so. Danny then unzipped the victim's jeans and reached in,
touching her pubic area several times; no penetration occurred. The
victim verbally resisted and Danny stopped. Danny then put his hand
into the victim's shirt, grabbing her breasts. Fearing for her
safety, the victim fled the silver car and ran away toward Langson
Library at 11pm. Danny started following the victim on foot for 100
yards, calling to her to stop; Danny returned to in his car and left
the area. The victim made good her escape and arrived at Langson
Library.

The victim was upset over the incident, and did not immediately seek
police assistance. She sat outside Langson Library for two hours
before being spotted by others who notified police at 1am. The victim
provided the below suspect description; she was not injured.

Suspect Description: "Danny", Male Asian, 21 years, short black hair,
brown eyes, 6 ft 1 inch tall, 160 lbs. Last seen wearing a gray
sweatshirt and blue jeans.

Our safety escort service is available by calling 949-824-SAFE. A
uniformed CSO will then meet you and escort you to your destination, a
safe alternative to walking alone at night.

If you have further information on the suspect or are a witness,
please call the UCI Police Department at 949-824-5223.

[larkin]

	Originally Posted by IrishGuy To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Here's a pretty good example, I think.....

I read the spoiler; pretty good example of what?

[curiousgeorge01]

Originally Posted by IrishGuy To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Here's a pretty good example, I think..... ( Show Spoiler ) Date: 05/30/2008 From: Safety Alert, UCI Police Department To: Emergency Communication List Re: Sexual Assault on Thursday, May 29, 2008 On Thursday, May 29, 2008, a female UCI student was waiting out in front of Langson Library late in the afternoon when she was approached by a young man. He introduced himself as "Danny", a student from another (unknown) school. Danny and the UCI student talked in front of Langson Library for two hours. Danny then suggested they visit the Anteater Pub to eat or drink and they walked over to the Pub at 7:30pm. While at the Anteater Pub, they continued talking and consumed several beers each (no food). At 9:30pm, the female student was tired and told Danny she had to go home; Danny offered her a ride and she accepted. They walked to Danny's car in Parking Lot #1. Danny's car is only described as silver in color (no further description). Danny drove the female student out of Parking Lot #1 and made a hasty turn into Parking Lot 3-A (adjacent to the Merage School of Business and across from the Social Science Parking Structure). The parking lot was empty. The female objected and asked why he had turned into the empty parking lot; Danny told the victim he wanted to talk some more. Once parked in Lot 3-A, the student and Danny talked for another hour or so. Danny then unzipped the victim's jeans and reached in, touching her pubic area several times; no penetration occurred. The victim verbally resisted and Danny stopped. Danny then put his hand into the victim's shirt, grabbing her breasts. Fearing for her safety, the victim fled the silver car and ran away toward Langson Library at 11pm. Danny started following the victim on foot for 100 yards, calling to her to stop; Danny returned to in his car and left the area. The victim made good her escape and arrived at Langson Library. The victim was upset over the incident, and did not immediately seek police assistance. She sat outside Langson Library for two hours before being spotted by others who notified police at 1am. The victim provided the below suspect description; she was not injured. Suspect Description: "Danny", Male Asian, 21 years, short black hair, brown eyes, 6 ft 1 inch tall, 160 lbs. Last seen wearing a gray sweatshirt and blue jeans. Our safety escort service is available by calling 949-824-SAFE. A uniformed CSO will then meet you and escort you to your destination, a safe alternative to walking alone at night. If you have further information on the suspect or are a witness, please call the UCI Police Department at 949-824-5223.

Well it does illustrate what I'm talking about albeit very creepily. I guess what I'm getting at is that let's say these types of men approach women all the time and women accept the invitation, doesn't that mean women already have a biased sample to base their judgements of men on? Given that a vast majority of women like to be approached, it doesn't seem that far fetched to believe.

Honestly, I'm not saying this as a man, but I think men have a more objective POV than women. The idea is purely based on men being the "predators" while women the "prey." The POV are very different if you're the chaser versus the chasee. The former probably has a wider view of the types he chases while the latter has only what she accepted.

[firebee]

	Originally Posted by IrishGuy To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	The female objected and asked why he had turned into the empty parking lot; Danny told the victim he wanted to talk some more.

	Originally Posted by IrishGuy To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Danny then unzipped the victim's jeans and reached in, touching her pubic area several times; no penetration occurred.

"But but that touchy woman! How was I supposed to know that going directly from "conversation" to "touching of genitals" with someone who I had taken to an isolated area late at night might not be the most romantic of moves?"

	Originally Posted by IrishGuy To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	The victim verbally resisted and Danny stopped. Danny then put his hand into the victim's shirt, grabbing her breasts.

"But but that touchy woman! How was I supposed to know that it might be a good idea to keep my paws the hell off a woman who had just expressed objection to my touching her?"

Amazingly horrible dating style or setup for date rape? Why pick -- it could just as well be both. Surely you do not mean that this constitutes an example of a blameless guy being run in merely for being clear about his intentions?

Just in case,
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are some tips that may help someone avoid similar unfortunate confusion in the future
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.

[curiousgeorge01]

I think he is saying why did she go with him at all? Or not leave sooner? There seems to be a fundamental difference in how we're looking at it. Here, you're asking why did the guy push it, and I am asking why did she go with him at all.

[Storm]

He asked her if he wanted a ride home. Usually, when people say "a ride home" to someone they barely know, they don't mean "pull into an abandoned parking lot and attempt to feel you up."

You are putting the blame of an attempted to sexual assault on the woman for daring to trust him for his word. I suppose all victims who ever got tricked into trusting their attacker are to blame too?

[curiousgeorge01]

Ok and you believe everyone who says that that they're actually going to give you a ride home? That's sort of naive. All I'm saying is that they met under dubious circumstances and that's enough to trust someone? You have to do better than that if you want to protect yourself, there's a lot of people out there who want to hurt you. Unfortunately women are more in danger from men than men are in danger from women in these sort of scenarios and need to up their precautions. Is that so illogical?

[firebee]

	Originally Posted by curiousgeorge01 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I think he is saying why did she go with him at all? Or not leave sooner? There seems to be a fundamental difference in how we're looking at it. Here, you're asking why did the guy push it, and I am asking why did she go with him at all.

Part of the point of the linky I put there is that this question -- "Why did she go with him / wear those jeans / leave her apartment after dark / not be under the protection of her father or her husband at all times?" is the question that gets asked first, second, quite a lot in the middle, and last whenever an event like this happens. It nigh unto overshadows the question of "Why did his mamma raise a cretin?"

These questions are not equivalent.

As to why she left with him, I'd venture to say a combination of social training and because he was a nice guy. Not appeared to be a nice guy -- was a nice guy. No horns sticking through the hair, minimal smell of cat pee, able to hold a conversation, bit of a sense of entitlement, social perception ability that in some cases is utterly FAIL. Pretty much the same as every other "nice guy" that has come through Relationships and Dating since the subforum was created. Just that at the end of the evening he got a little script running in his brain that started with him being Manly and Forward and ended in soft focus and movement under bedsheets, and he failed to notice a crucial lack of correlation with reality until it was too late.





firebee added to this post, 7 minutes and 16 seconds later...

	Originally Posted by curiousgeorge01 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Ok and you believe everyone who says that that they're actually going to give you a ride home? That's sort of naive.

I might be a tiny bit suspicious if somebody came up in a white van and said "I have some candy for you, little girl" -- but overall, if I met someone, hit it off with him, and conversed for a few hours it would seem entirely reasonable to ask for a ride home from him and to expect that he would take me home instead of attempting to nonconsensually rape me.

In fact, generally I expect men to not try and rape me unless I ask them to.

	Originally Posted by curiousgeorge01 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	All I'm saying is that they met under dubious circumstances and that's enough to trust someone?

Dubious circumstances? A student meeting another student in front of the library is what you call "dubious circumstances"?

Well, admittedly she would have been better served by going to meet men at the local BDSM club, where she would have some opportunity to discern whether they understood the concept of "consent". But somehow I don't think that's what you were proposing as an alternative.

[Storm]

Originally Posted by curiousgeorge01 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Ok and you believe everyone who says that that they're actually going to give you a ride home? That's sort of naive. All I'm saying is that they met under dubious circumstances and that's enough to trust someone? You have to do better than that if you want to protect yourself, there's a lot of people out there who want to hurt you. Unfortunately women are more in danger from men than men are in danger from women in these sort of scenarios and need to up their precautions. Is that so illogical?

Whenever a crime of any sort has occurred, it's always possible to find ways the victim could have avoided it. "Why didn't he keep a shotgun behind the counter?" "Why didn't she throw her purse and run?" "Why didn't she leave him?" "Why did she leave her drink unattended?" "Why didn't he just quit that fraternity?"

Sure, one should always be cautious and on one's guard. One should always look both ways before crossing the street, but if one gets hit by a car, the driver is the one to blame. I'm sure I don't have to explain that bit of logic to you.

The fault lies not with the one who was "naive" or didn't "do enough" the fault lies with the one who did it. Hindsighting the situation in attempt to mitigate the blame away from the actually perpetrator sets a scary precedent. Being naive is not a crime, being a rapist is.

[curiousgeorge01]

Originally Posted by firebee To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Part of the point of the linky I put there is that this question -- "Why did she go with him / wear those jeans / leave her apartment after dark / not be under the protection of her father or her husband at all times?" is the question that gets asked first, second, quite a lot in the middle, and last whenever an event like this happens. It nigh unto overshadows the question of "Why did his mamma raise a cretin?" These questions are not equivalent. As to why she left with him, I'd venture to say a combination of social training and because he was a nice guy. Not appeared to be a nice guy -- was a nice guy. No horns sticking through the hair, minimal smell of cat pee, able to hold a conversation, bit of a sense of entitlement, social perception ability that in some cases is utterly FAIL. Pretty much the same as every other "nice guy" that has come through Relationships and Dating since the subforum was created. Just that at the end of the evening he got a little script running in his brain that started with him being Manly and Forward and ended in soft focus and movement under bedsheets, and he failed to notice a crucial lack of correlation with reality until it was too late. Dubious circumstances? A student meeting another student in front of the library is what you call "dubious circumstances"? Well, admittedly she would have been better served by going to meet men at the local BDSM club, where she would have some opportunity to discern whether they understood the concept of "consent". But somehow I don't think that's what you were proposing as an alternative.

I'm not saying you have to go overkill all I'm saying is if things don't seem to add up or a little shady you should take the safer route. I was once at a strip club and a hot stripper who danced on me for a good hour asked me to come home with her. Yea she seemed real nice too! I didn't go with her because it just seemed weird, why the hell is she asking me out of all guys? I guess on the plus side is I could get sex, and then there's a host of minuses on the side; she could be nuts, take me somewhere, drug me and rob me, have someone ambush me etc. So what did I say? I said no!

Yes dubious! She just met the guy! And supposedly he's from out of town so she's never seen him before. That's enough to accept a ride home?!





curiousgeorge01 added to this post, 4 minutes and 0 seconds later...

Originally Posted by Storm To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Whenever a crime of any sort has occurred, it's always possible to find ways the victim could have avoided it. "Why didn't he keep a shotgun behind the counter?" "Why didn't she throw her purse and run?" "Why didn't she leave him?" "Why did she leave her drink unattended?" "Why didn't he just quit that fraternity?" Sure, one should always be cautious and on one's guard. One should always look both ways before crossing the street, but if one gets hit by a car, the driver is the one to blame. I'm sure I don't have to explain that bit of logic to you. The fault lies not with the one who was "naive" or didn't "do enough" the fault lies with the one who did it. Hindsighting the situation in attempt to mitigate the blame away from the actually perpetrator sets a scary precedent. Being naive is not a crime, being a rapist is.

Well if you looked both ways, you wouldn't be hit by a car
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.

Ok so if you walk into a neighborhood full of rapists and you get raped, it's the rapist's fault? Yes that IS naive.

[Storm]

Curious, your viewpoint is that of the classic "blame the victim" approach. The underlying assumption is that men are inevietably violent and women must constantly be on their guard. It's not the men's fault when rape occurs, it's the woman for not guarding against it. Similar to the way that a man who has sex on a first date is "just acting on his impulses" but a woman who does so is "giving it up too soon."

Again, I'm not saying people shouldn't take precautions (like looking both ways before crossing), but the fault, the entire fault, lies with the criminal and no one else.

*Note, I realize that men can be raped by men/women, and women can be raped by other women, a problems which, unfortunately, receive little attention.

	Originally Posted by curiousgeorge01 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Well if you looked both ways, you wouldn't be hit by a car To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. .

The pedestrian has the right of way because cars are large and dangerous machines. The person driving the car should realize this and be cautious for pedestrians. If you are driving and see a pedestrian, you are expected to be able to stop or avoid the person because you have the greater responsibility.

	Ok so if you walk into a neighborhood full of rapists and you get raped, it's the rapist's fault? Yes that IS naive.

Yes, it is. The rapist is the one who performed the crime. The rapist should go to jail, not the victim. Do you also think crimes should be allowed to happen if they become prevalent enough?

[Rudy]

	Originally Posted by curiousgeorge01 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Ok so if you walk into a neighborhood full of rapists and you get raped, it's the rapist's fault? Yes that IS naive.

Yes, cg, it is still the rapist's fault. :/ Such a person, walking into such a neighborhood, can be called stupid, naive, ignorant, foolhardy, headstrong, etc. What they cannot be called is immoral. They are not doing anything morally wrong by walking into said neighborhood, so they cannot be held as morally responsible for the results.

Now, if I read such a story in the papers, yes, I would probably think: "She really should have stayed out of that area," etc. However, I would still blame the rapist, and I would still pity the person who was raped.

[curiousgeorge01]

I'm not blaming the victim I'm just letting you know there's a price for too little precaution. Yea you're right, it is the perpetrator's fault, but that doesn't stop the fact that it happened! Like I say if I know a neighborhood is dangerous and I go anyway and am killed, I can't take back dying even if it's not my fault.

[firebee]

	Originally Posted by curiousgeorge01 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Ok so if you walk into a neighborhood full of rapists and you get raped, it's the rapist's fault? Yes that IS naive.

Yes! When a person commits rape, it is most definitely their fault!

Women are expected not to go out at night. Women are expected not to go out at all, really. Women are expected not to dress attractively (but if a woman dresses unattractively and fails as a result to secure a mate, employment, or whatever that's also her fault too). Women are expected to be suspicious of men that they meet under suspicious circumstances, such as in front of the library or at church. Women are under a web of various requirements related to the question of rape that if strictly held to would render them unable to function in society. Seems perfectly reasonable, ne?

Men are expected to not rape women...? Hold on there, buddy, let's not go making unrealistic requests.

[curiousgeorge01]

Actually the above does seem reasonable.

Men are expected not to rape women, but given that the ones who approach you are more likely to be one b/c they're "hunting" shouldn't you take more precaution against someone who approaches you? That does not seem unreasonable to me at all. I won't go home at all with women who first approach me.





curiousgeorge01 added to this post, 2 minutes and 52 seconds later...

Originally Posted by Rudy To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Yes, cg, it is still the rapist's fault. :/ Such a person, walking into such a neighborhood, can be called stupid, naive, ignorant, foolhardy, headstrong, etc. What they cannot be called is immoral. They are not doing anything morally wrong by walking into said neighborhood, so they cannot be held as morally responsible for the results. Now, if I read such a story in the papers, yes, I would probably think: "She really should have stayed out of that area," etc. However, I would still blame the rapist, and I would still pity the person who was raped.

Yes that person is not immoral but you can't say she is fault-LESS.

[Storm]

No one is saying that people shouldn't be prudent in their actions, but when an actual assault as occurred, in the OP, the question shouldn't be "What could the victim have done to have prevented this?" but "What could the rapist have done?"

There is only so much a person can do to be reasonable. There's a chain e-mail that has gotten passed around for a few years with lovely advice like "Don't wear overalls! Rapist carry scissors around so they can cut them off!" and "Look under your car before you get in it!" The attitude is one of perpetual fear for women. Behind every corner lurks a rapist with a pair of scissors.

The truth is, there are some reasonable steps a person should take (not going home with strangers I agree with), but there are only so many. Not going out at night is one that is a little off the deep end. The sun sets at 6pm, people get home from work at 5pm or later. Setting a curfey for adults after 6pm because of their sex is ridiculous.

[EL Gato]

	Ok so if you walk into a neighborhood full of rapists and you get raped, it's the rapist's fault? Yes that IS naive.

A neighborhood full of rapists??? Oh yes, I recall I once visited a nice town called Rapistville.
And what if it happens to be your neighborhood, or your mother's neighborhood?

Anyway, I find some of the threads on women as the devil that made me do it kind of tiresome. Are there mentally unstable females out there looking to get men into trouble? You bet, but perhaps you should turn the question around and ask yourself how can men be so naive and not run from women at the first signs of emotional instability (hint: blood leaving your brain). Anyway, I find there are no more crazy women out there than there are crazy or violent men.

[larkin]

	Originally Posted by Storm To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	There is only so much a person can do to be reasonable. There's a chain e-mail that has gotten passed around for a few years with lovely advice like "Don't wear overalls! Rapist carry scissors around so they can cut them off!" and "Look under your car before you get in it!" The attitude is one of perpetual fear for women. Behind every corner lurks a rapist with a pair of scissors.

Yes, this, exactly. I wonder how much it even occurs to men that because of viewpoints like the one CG is promoting, women have been taught to live in fear of one half of the population their whole life. I remember walking home alone from the library in college one night and being startled by the fact there was a guy on the path about twenty yards behind me. For the first time ever, I realized - he doesn't even know this isn't okay for me. Why would it even cross his mind that I'm constantly evaluating the level of threat guys pose? Why is it, for the first time, I am thinking to myself that maybe I shouldn't treat all men as basically predators?

CG, you're basically saying it's not only acceptable for women to live like this, you're saying that if they choose not to whatever happens to them is their fault. Not only is this absurd on its face, I sincerely doubt this is the outcome you actually want.

Weren't you just advocating a thread ago that women should be doing more initiating? How can you possibly reconcile the idea of approaching random strangers when in this thread you're saying that any time we spend alone with said random stranger might be "inviting" sexual assault?

Personally, I have no desire to treat all men that I'm still getting to know as potential date rapists. I prefer instead that men just be confident that the woman actually wants to proceed before they proceed. If they're in any way in doubt, they're welcome to ask.

[polaroid]

Well, we could do this two ways. One way, the way we've been doing, which clearly doesn't work is to focus on women as preventers. That is, we say to women: don't wear skirts, don't go out at night, don't go into that part of town, carry mace, don't look strangers in the eye, don't talk to strangers, don't accept rides home, don't drink, don't lend a lighter or cigarette to a stranger, don't go out without a male escort, don't open the door at home if you are alone, ad infinitum.

How about we instead focus on men, who commit nearly all rapes? Don't go out at night, don't drink, don't go out without a female escort, etc.

But it's all useless in the end. Most rapes are committed by rapists who know the victim, whether intimately or as an acquaintance. Even though the common idea of rape is the one where a large man jumps out from the bushes and attacks the young white woman walking down an alleyway alone at night, in reality a woman is mor likely to be raped by a boyfriend or husband than a stranger.

[Vagrant]

	Originally Posted by firebee To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	"But but that touchy woman! How was I supposed to know that it might be a good idea to keep my paws the hell off a woman who had just expressed objection to my touching her?"

You haven't read the stories around this forum where women say "No, no" to the guy, the guy stops, and she asks "Why'd you stop?" There are lots of women who simply say no because saying yes might make them feel guilty.

I'm not saying what he did was right, because it clearly was not. Just pointing out that something as simple as "no" can be misinterpreted by a horny guy.

[polaroid]

	Originally Posted by Vagrant To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	You haven't read the stories around this forum where women say "No, no" to the guy, the guy stops, and she asks "Why'd you stop?" There are lots of women who simply say no because saying yes might make them feel guilty. I'm not saying what he did was right, because it clearly was not. Just pointing out that something as simple as "no" can be misinterpreted by a horny guy.

It doesn't matter if 99 women have said "no" but when you stopped they admitted they meant yes. If the 100th woman says "no," you stop. That's the safest option for all parties involved--nobody gets raped, nobody "misinterprets" a 'no' and rapes someone.

[Vagrant]

	Originally Posted by polaroid To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	It doesn't matter if 99 women have said "no" but when you stopped they admitted they meant yes. If the 100th woman says "no," you stop. That's the safest option for all parties involved--nobody gets raped, nobody "misinterprets" a 'no' and rapes someone.

Well, I certainly stop if I hear no. But not every man is me.

[Storm]

	Originally Posted by Vagrant To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	You haven't read the stories around this forum where women say "No, no" to the guy, the guy stops, and she asks "Why'd you stop?" There are lots of women who simply say no because saying yes might make them feel guilty.

In such cases the man did the right thing.

[Warrior]

	Originally Posted by polaroid To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	It doesn't matter if 99 women have said "no" but when you stopped they admitted they meant yes. If the 100th woman says "no," you stop. That's the safest option for all parties involved--nobody gets raped, nobody "misinterprets" a 'no' and rapes someone.

I agree 100%, although it would be nice if that applied to women as well. It's bad for guys, too, when they tell women to stop and the woman doesn't.