I Hated A Clockwork Orange

**rara avis** · 03-30-2009, 01:06 PM

Go ahead, have at me, I've brought foam bats with which you may take out your aggression:

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I just watched it for the first time the other night. I thought it was ridiculous, masturbatory, tedious, clumsy, and just... hatefully boring. I was conscious of all the actors acting. I found I could not care what happened to anyone in the movie, or what they had to say. The sets could've been designed by an excitable 15 year old. I thought the attempts to be sssshhhocking were juvenile- even looked at from the perspective of 1971 when it was "pushing the envelope"- and btw, K-Word, thanks for doing everyone that favor - and I have been considerably more entertained by people's detailed explanations of why this movie is great than I was by the movie itself. That's bad.

Anyway, since the topic of the day seems to be movies, I thought I'd toss that out there and see whether anyone has something to say. FTR, I was disappointed not to at least find this movie interesting.

The Shining was very good. Next up: either Barry Lyndon or Dr. Strangelove.

**Prunesquallor** · 03-30-2009, 01:08 PM

What about the book? I liked it...never seen the movie, though.

**uncon** · 03-30-2009, 01:10 PM

	Originally Posted by dalidaisy To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	3. I will send you my thoughts on it, but only if you say "please"...

Regarding Lynch - see Inland Empire. It's no Mulholland but incredible nonetheless.
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good
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.

Something to keep in mind is that every character is not to be taken literally. They could be two sides of the same person or they could represent something metaphorically and not be a character at all in the traditional sense. Lynch's films are dreams and in dreams there are literal, physical things mixed in with symbolic/magical things. Ultimately his films are always about a loss of innocence (really, his innocence lost told through different characters). Lynch is one of the greats - maybe the only actual "great" director left that would be up there with Bergman or Bunuel. I can't think of any contemporary director who I like more when considering their entire career. There aren't many artists but he is surely one. This wasn't really directed at you dalidaisy - just needed a jumping on point.

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- beautiful work.

**rara avis** · 03-30-2009, 01:19 PM

Haven't read it. The language would have been interesting, if it hadn't gotten kind of lost in my overall sense of irritation. I actually was wondering about the book while I was watching, for that reason.

**azelismia** · 03-30-2009, 01:27 PM

Originally Posted by rara avis
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Go ahead, have at me, I've brought foam bats with which you may take out your aggression:

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I just watched it for the first time the other night. I thought it was ridiculous, masturbatory, tedious, clumsy, and just... hatefully boring. I was conscious of all the actors acting. I found I could not care what happened to anyone in the movie, or what they had to say. The sets could've been designed by an excitable 15 year old. I thought the attempts to be sssshhhocking were juvenile- even looked at from the perspective of 1971 when it was "pushing the envelope"- and btw, K-Word, thanks for doing everyone that favor - and I have been considerably more entertained by people's detailed explanations of why this movie is great than I was by the movie itself. That's bad.

Anyway, since the topic of the day seems to be movies, I thought I'd toss that out there and see whether anyone has to say. FTR, I was disappointed not to at least find this movie interesting.

The Shining was very good. Next up: either Barry Lyndon or Dr. Strangelove.

I hated a clockwork orange too. Dr strangelove is definitely worthwhile though. awesome movie.

**uncon** · 03-30-2009, 01:36 PM

	Originally Posted by rara avis To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I thought it was ridiculous, masturbatory, tedious, clumsy, and just... hatefully boring.

It is all those things and more. It works on two levels - social commentary (this stuff is bad, so is the treatment) and vicarious enjoyment (probably only for men though). Like when Fox news does a show on how horrible pornography is - it's a good excuse to show titillating things while condemning them.

It deals with crime and punishment, aggression and guilt brought on by an out of control libido (testosterone). Born with a sweet tooth in a candy store behind thick glass. What was the real point of the film - maybe it's simply about a young male's perspective of civilization as one of it's discontents. I identified quite a bit with the protagonist but mostly in thought and not in deed, being a somewhat externally reserved INTJ.

I wouldn't have recommended it to you though.

2001 or Strangelove are good choices but I think Full Metal Jacket might be his best though. Lolita is more depressing than sensational and Eyes Wide Shut is a disaster. Never seen Lyndon b/c it seemed like a snoozer.

**Night Runner** · 03-30-2009, 01:51 PM

I watched it once with a few buddies - they were big fans, so that made the experience bearable. It didn't leave much of an impression on me, except for 3 things:
1) The fast-forwarded sex scene was amusing.
2) I understand K's effort to sound artsy and use Russian words, but did he have to butcher them so horribly? It's not devOchka - it's dEvochka, for FSM's sake!
3) I found the brainwashing/eye-poking scene to be very disturbing. I'm very protective of my eyes (to the point where I would never wear contacts) and seeing all those things done to the actor's eyes was easily one of the most disturbing movie-watching experiences I have ever had.

**BlackOp** · 03-30-2009, 01:54 PM

Well...CWO isnt one of my favorite Kubrick films. It was a button pusher...especially for what was happening in 1971 cinema. He was already punching holes in "modern escapism" before there was modern "ultra-violent" escapism...he saw it coming. The underlying premise came in one quote " thing seems so much more "alive" when they are on the big screen". All the exaggerated penis imagery (to me) was about repressed males living vicariously through moving images...their heros are reckless, lawless womanizers. "Badboys"....Ironically his satire backfired as there were outbreaks of real-life imitators. Kubrick had the movie pulled in some places......when was the last time that happened. Props...

One scene that is lost on some is the joyride car scene...with the cheesy blue screen superimposed backdrop. He wanted to make them appear "cartoony"...as if to mock the viewers vicarious obsession with violence and create an emotional disconnect.

Like it or hate it...it still is an important film. There was nothing like it at the time. It is a bit form over function but respect its insubordinance and nose thumbing. Quite the juxtaposition to 2001 (rated G) which was his previous film. I think he "wanted to get dirty" with it and push the envelope. He had guts...

**Bobert** · 03-30-2009, 01:57 PM

Barry Lyndon was punished by many. A lot of Kubricks' films arouse controversy.

I liked Clockwork when I was 18. But I haven't seen it in a long while. I didn't care for Eyes Wide Shut either.
But his camera work is amazing.

**dandylion** · 03-30-2009, 02:44 PM

	Originally Posted by Night Runner To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I found the brainwashing/eye-poking scene to be very disturbing. I'm very protective of my eyes (to the point where I would never wear contacts) and seeing all those things done to the actor's eyes was easily one of the most disturbing movie-watching experiences I have ever had.

Oh yes, that part made me want to die.

**tp6626** · 03-30-2009, 02:49 PM

I enjoyed it, but I think I can see why someone might not be interested by it. I think it does appeal to young males more; it is somewhat juvenile.

I preferred Dr Strangelove, and will bet that you can't stop thinking of Moriarty when you watch it!
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(With that avatar, Moriarty is Dr Strangelove to me, I even imagine him sat in the wheelchair, and when I read his posts they are in that accent).

Anyway, I won't want to spoil anything, so I'll not do any odd quotes (there are plenty). In fact, seeing as you didn't like CWO, I'm hard pushed to guess which way you'll swing with regards to Dr Strangelove.

I thought it was funny, thought-provoking, and full of oddly intriguing ideas. I reckon they all had a good laugh making it!
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(I don't think Jennifer Aniston is in it though).

**CatalystAK** · 03-30-2009, 03:05 PM

A Clockwork Orange does seem like a film you either really like or one that you really hate. I personally really liked it because when I first saw it I was in the middle of taking a film criticism class and I could really identify all the parts of the film because things are so extreme.

I also think that the 'really like it or really hate it' is true of a lot of Kubrick's works. I really liked The Shining, Dr Strangelove and Full Metal Jacket. 2001 and Spartacus I saw when I was younger and didn't fully appreciate them but if I saw them now I might.

**BlackOp** · 03-30-2009, 03:51 PM

	Originally Posted by uncon To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Regarding Lynch - see Inland Empire.

I am a big fan of Lynch but Inland Empire was way too self-indulgent and LONG. IMO. To the point of becoming annoying rather than abstractly challenging. I found the first 1/2 of Lost Highway to be similar in tone (to IE) but much more effective and unconsciously creepy. Mulholland Drive and Blue Velvet were fantastic though. I am a huge fan of Bergman also and agree about Lynch being in the same class (almost).

**ntwady** · 03-30-2009, 04:03 PM

	Originally Posted by dalidaisy To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Oh, and Mulholland Drive (another Lynch film). If you like complexity & brain teasers, this one's perfect.

I find it quite fitting that you would like this movie, with all the sexual undertones (as well as the overt ones) and all.

I actually took a film studies class two years ago and chose that movie as my culminating final project - disassembling and analyzing every minute detail. My presentation was over 2 hours long to do this movie justice.

Honestly, I wouldn't say Mulholland Drive is even one of my favorite movies, but I loved the challenge in understanding such an abstract, convoluted, and non-linear story.

**uncon** · 03-30-2009, 04:06 PM

	Originally Posted by BlackOp To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I am a big fan of Lynch but Inland Empire was way too self-indulgent and LONG. IMO. To the point of becoming annoying rather than abstractly challenging. Mulholland Drive and Blue Velvet were fantastic though. I am a huge fan of Bergman also and agree about Lynch being in the same class (almost).

Yes, not his best but still good if you're into Lynch. They're probably not in the same class but I really can't think of anyone else that would even come close. There just aren't any huge names anymore - a sure sign that we're in the declining phase (popular music seems that way also). Oh well, opera had its time also.

**BlackOp** · 03-30-2009, 04:07 PM

Originally Posted by Ntwadumela
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I find it quite fitting that you would like this movie, with all the sexual undertones (as well as the overt ones) and all.

I actually took a film studies class two years ago and chose that movie as my culminating final project - disassembling and analyzing every minute detail.

My presentation was over 2 hours long to give this movie justice.

Honestly, I wouldn't say Mulholland Drive is even one of my favorite movies, but I loved the challenge in understanding such an abstract, convoluted, and non-linear story.

What did you conclude was the blue box/key metaphor? The espresso scene?

**Kisai** · 03-30-2009, 04:18 PM

The blue box/key was "Rita's" contract with the Evil Spirit Forces of Hollywood. She set Betty up to trade her fate for hers, which she gladly did out of love.

The espresso scene is just David Lynch having fun.

**dalidaisy** · 03-30-2009, 04:19 PM

	Originally Posted by Ntwadumela To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I find it quite fitting that you would like this movie, with all the sexual undertones (as well as the overt ones) and all.

Geez, I must be pretty transparent, with all my sex talk, huh? Seriously, though, I did not like it for the sex, though it does add to the appeal. I like movies that are complex, surreal & layered. Oh, & I am a big fan of Lynch...

**BlackOp** · 03-30-2009, 04:27 PM

	Originally Posted by Kisai To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	The blue box/key was "Rita's" contract with the Evil Spirit Forces of Hollywood. She set Betty up to trade her fate for hers, which she gladly did out of love. The espresso scene is just David Lynch having fun.

I got that it was destroying her small city idealism. There is a certain sadness (blue) when you find what you hold dear is proven wrong. If you want to achieve artistic greatness you have to open the box and suffer the transition...the "key". The scene where she gets emotional to the "taped" singing performance and the other is unaffected. Easily susceptible to Hollywood gimmicks...much like a "target audience" is to a water downed, premeditated movie plot.

The espresso scene was a metaphor for Lynchs disdain for artistically stunted movie executives. Their initial reaction to his films (espresso) is spit out in disgust. "But sir, this is the finest espresso in the world". The whole film is a "fuck you" to Big Hollywood.

**Kisai** · 03-30-2009, 04:31 PM

"First of all to understand what happened to Killer, you gotta understand who Killer the dog was..."

**ntwady** · 03-30-2009, 04:45 PM

Originally Posted by BlackOp
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I got that it was destroying her small city idealism. There is a certain sadness (blue) when you find what you hold dear is proven wrong. If you want to achieve artistic greatness you have to open the box and suffer the transition...the "key".

The espresso scene was a metaphor for Lynchs disdain for artistically stunted movie executives. Their initial reaction to his films (espresso) is spit out in disgust. "But sir, this is the finest espresso in the world". The whole film is a "fuck you" to Big Hollywood.

I believed the box and key to be tied with Diane's repressed memories (murder, sexual abuse, etc.) and her falsely constructed reality. The reality lay within the box: empty, desolate, and disheveled. The box must remain closed for her to live in this fantasy state. As the box opens, so does her reality.

Honestly, my memory is hazy on the espresso scene. It's been a while.

**INTJoe** · 03-30-2009, 04:54 PM

Rara, I think you should have saved ACO for the last of Kubrick's films. It's probably his most complex and polarizing*. Sweep this one under the rug and don't hate on him just yet. Dude really is an amazing film-maker. I think BlackOP has done you a dis-service by allowing you to view ACO before you are primed for it.

That said, ACO is one of my least-favorite by him. Kubrick has earned the right for me to give it another chance though in a while.

Barry Lyndon is fucking amazing, and I hate period epics.

I would have suggested you watch his films in order, beginning with 1956's The Killing. That, and 1957's Paths of Glory are both black and white gems.

*Even if you don't find ACO edgy, it is undeniable the social impact it had in England. Kubrick received death threats until he removed the film from English theaters (at this time, he was a permanent English resident), and it was not shown until after his death in 1999. The English at the time were quite worried that copycat crimes would be committed.

**dalidaisy** · 03-30-2009, 04:57 PM

Originally Posted by BlackOp
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I got that it was destroying her small city idealism. There is a certain sadness (blue) when you find what you hold dear is proven wrong. If you want to achieve artistic greatness you have to open the box and suffer the transition...the "key".

The espresso scene was a metaphor for Lynchs disdain for artistically stunted movie executives. Their initial reaction to his films (espresso) is spit out in disgust. "But sir, this is the finest espresso in the world". The whole film is a "fuck you" to Big Hollywood.

I saw the blue box as a metaphor for her repressed memory & the key was her guilt & symbolic of the murder.

I agree that the espresso scene depicting the mobster who can't stand his less than perfect espresso depicts Hollywood executives showing their disdain for his work.

**Kisai** · 03-30-2009, 05:00 PM

If the blue key belonged to Betty, why is it in Rita's purse with a bunch of money?

**BlackOp** · 03-30-2009, 05:44 PM

	Originally Posted by Kisai To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	If the blue key belonged to Betty, why is it in Rita's purse with a bunch of money?

Its been a while but I thought they were the same person...."the dark side" of her unconscious. That whats great about Lynch and its left open-ended. The box was definitely a symbol of her unconscious...imo.

03-30-2009, 01:06 PM	#1
rara avis Core Member [163%] MBTI: INTP Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 6,521	Go ahead, have at me, I've brought foam bats with which you may take out your aggression: To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. I just watched it for the first time the other night. I thought it was ridiculous, masturbatory, tedious, clumsy, and just... hatefully boring. I was conscious of all the actors acting. I found I could not care what happened to anyone in the movie, or what they had to say. The sets could've been designed by an excitable 15 year old. I thought the attempts to be sssshhhocking were juvenile- even looked at from the perspective of 1971 when it was "pushing the envelope"- and btw, K-Word, thanks for doing everyone that favor - and I have been considerably more entertained by people's detailed explanations of why this movie is great than I was by the movie itself. That's bad. Anyway, since the topic of the day seems to be movies, I thought I'd toss that out there and see whether anyone has something to say. FTR, I was disappointed not to at least find this movie interesting. The Shining was very good. Next up: either Barry Lyndon or Dr. Strangelove.
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03-30-2009, 01:08 PM	#2
Prunesquallor Veteran Member [66%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 2,647	What about the book? I liked it...never seen the movie, though.
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03-30-2009, 01:19 PM	#4
rara avis Core Member [163%] MBTI: INTP Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 6,521	Haven't read it. The language would have been interesting, if it hadn't gotten kind of lost in my overall sense of irritation. I actually was wondering about the book while I was watching, for that reason.
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03-30-2009, 01:51 PM	#7
Night Runner Core Member [148%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 5,931	I watched it once with a few buddies - they were big fans, so that made the experience bearable. It didn't leave much of an impression on me, except for 3 things: 1) The fast-forwarded sex scene was amusing. 2) I understand K's effort to sound artsy and use Russian words, but did he have to butcher them so horribly? It's not devOchka - it's dEvochka, for FSM's sake! 3) I found the brainwashing/eye-poking scene to be very disturbing. I'm very protective of my eyes (to the point where I would never wear contacts) and seeing all those things done to the actor's eyes was easily one of the most disturbing movie-watching experiences I have ever had.
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03-30-2009, 01:54 PM	#8
BlackOp Veteran Member [78%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 3,155	Well...CWO isnt one of my favorite Kubrick films. It was a button pusher...especially for what was happening in 1971 cinema. He was already punching holes in "modern escapism" before there was modern "ultra-violent" escapism...he saw it coming. The underlying premise came in one quote " thing seems so much more "alive" when they are on the big screen". All the exaggerated penis imagery (to me) was about repressed males living vicariously through moving images...their heros are reckless, lawless womanizers. "Badboys"....Ironically his satire backfired as there were outbreaks of real-life imitators. Kubrick had the movie pulled in some places......when was the last time that happened. Props... One scene that is lost on some is the joyride car scene...with the cheesy blue screen superimposed backdrop. He wanted to make them appear "cartoony"...as if to mock the viewers vicarious obsession with violence and create an emotional disconnect. Like it or hate it...it still is an important film. There was nothing like it at the time. It is a bit form over function but respect its insubordinance and nose thumbing. Quite the juxtaposition to 2001 (rated G) which was his previous film. I think he "wanted to get dirty" with it and push the envelope. He had guts...
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03-30-2009, 01:57 PM	#9
Bobert Member [41%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 1,671	Barry Lyndon was punished by many. A lot of Kubricks' films arouse controversy. I liked Clockwork when I was 18. But I haven't seen it in a long while. I didn't care for Eyes Wide Shut either. But his camera work is amazing.
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03-30-2009, 02:49 PM	#11
tp6626 Core Member [108%] MBTI: iNTj Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 4,345	I enjoyed it, but I think I can see why someone might not be interested by it. I think it does appeal to young males more; it is somewhat juvenile. I preferred Dr Strangelove, and will bet that you can't stop thinking of Moriarty when you watch it! To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. (With that avatar, Moriarty is Dr Strangelove to me, I even imagine him sat in the wheelchair, and when I read his posts they are in that accent). Anyway, I won't want to spoil anything, so I'll not do any odd quotes (there are plenty). In fact, seeing as you didn't like CWO, I'm hard pushed to guess which way you'll swing with regards to Dr Strangelove. I thought it was funny, thought-provoking, and full of oddly intriguing ideas. I reckon they all had a good laugh making it! To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. (I don't think Jennifer Aniston is in it though).
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03-30-2009, 03:05 PM	#12
CatalystAK Member [06%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 275	A Clockwork Orange does seem like a film you either really like or one that you really hate. I personally really liked it because when I first saw it I was in the middle of taking a film criticism class and I could really identify all the parts of the film because things are so extreme. I also think that the 'really like it or really hate it' is true of a lot of Kubrick's works. I really liked The Shining, Dr Strangelove and Full Metal Jacket. 2001 and Spartacus I saw when I was younger and didn't fully appreciate them but if I saw them now I might.
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03-30-2009, 04:18 PM	#17
Kisai Core Member [356%] MBTI: XXXX Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 14,263	The blue box/key was "Rita's" contract with the Evil Spirit Forces of Hollywood. She set Betty up to trade her fate for hers, which she gladly did out of love. The espresso scene is just David Lynch having fun.
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03-30-2009, 04:31 PM	#20
Kisai Core Member [356%] MBTI: XXXX Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 14,263	"First of all to understand what happened to Killer, you gotta understand who Killer the dog was..."
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03-30-2009, 04:54 PM	#22
INTJoe Veteran Member [75%] MBTI: INTj Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 3,009	Rara, I think you should have saved ACO for the last of Kubrick's films. It's probably his most complex and polarizing. Sweep this one under the rug and don't hate on him just yet. Dude really is an amazing film-maker. I think BlackOP has done you a dis-service by allowing you to view ACO before you are primed for it. That said, ACO is one of my least-favorite by him. Kubrick has earned the right for me to give it another chance though in a while. Barry Lyndon* is fucking amazing, and I hate period epics. I would have suggested you watch his films in order, beginning with 1956's The Killing. That, and 1957's Paths of Glory are both black and white gems. *Even if you don't find ACO edgy, it is undeniable the social impact it had in England. Kubrick received death threats until he removed the film from English theaters (at this time, he was a permanent English resident), and it was not shown until after his death in 1999. The English at the time were quite worried that copycat crimes would be committed.
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03-30-2009, 05:00 PM	#24
Kisai Core Member [356%] MBTI: XXXX Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 14,263	If the blue key belonged to Betty, why is it in Rita's purse with a bunch of money?
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