[Kisai]

Saw it. Waaaaaayy too much Deus Ex Mechana in the plot.

( Show Spoiler )

Complaints:

Nero commands a mining vessel. A mining vessel 120 years in the future, but a mining vessel that can wipe out 49 Klingon ships and go engage Starfleet for dessert?? If that's a mining vessel, what the hell do Cardassians send to attack their enemies, ice cream trucks? What are they mining, Borg cubes?

* * *

A star explodes, threatening the universe. Spock moves to stop it. Nobody else in the universe makes a move, just Spock. The Cardassian homeworld is destroyed before Spock can do anything. Nero is enraged at Spock. Nero should be more enraged that he has a ship that can hold the entire population of Cardassia, but sat on his hands suddenly surprised that the star apparently blew up at Warp 9.9999999, crossing AUs like they were centimeters.

* **
Spock goes to stop the exploding star. He's armed with Red Matter. He apparently only needs a little to actually do the job, but he brings enough with him to wipe out the whole galaxy. When this stockpile does get crashed into Nero's ship, again, only a little needed to destroy a planet, there are no magnified effects, no new galactic center, for instance.

***

Spock is captain. Kirk enrages Spock by taunting him about his destroyed planet and dead mother. Spock becomes Kirk's friend. WTF?

***

Spock is marooned on the same planet as Kirk. They manage to bump into each other. Spock knows the equations needed to send Kirk back. Somehow either Kirk, Scotty, or Spock knows the exact location of the Enterprise in Warp Space to the zettasecond. Somehow they don't know where Nero's ship is in order to plant 100 photon torpedos inside it. Somehow basic astrophysics, the expansion of space, isn't known to Scotty.

[Synchronicity]

Nero was a Romulan, Kisai, not a Cardassian. Cardassians are the ones with suspension bridge necks.

[spiritdetectivegirl]

	Originally Posted by Kisai To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Saw it. Waaaaaayy too much Deus Ex Mechana in the plot.

Yeah a bit. Still liked it though.

[eternaltriangle]

	Originally Posted by spiritdetectivegirl To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Casting was great, never knew how much Karl Urban looked like McCoy--he pulled it off well. My father is a long time, old school Trekker and he enjoyed it. Had his irks about it but he went in expecting some dissfigurement so, no hard trama there.

That you use the word "Trekker" gives it all away!

I liked the movie, though it is kind of a long trailer for a new set of movies. Nero isn't that great a villain, and the plot doesn't have the moral dilemmas that made the better Star Trek episodes. That said, I was quite encouraged by the cast. I think Sulu is the only character that doesn't really capture the original (are there Asian actors in Hollywood other than Harold and that guy from Mad TV). Sulu was an enthusiastic man who had a zest for life, whereas Harold is kind of quiet and sarcastic.

PS: Did anybody catch Randy Pausch's cameo? I did not.

PPS: I am also encouraged that Vulcans learn about public goods.

[spiritdetectivegirl]

Hah, guilty as charged eternaltriangle.

I agree with your post though, just did'nt have the brain cells to pin point it. (Half dead with fatige.)

Also, it sort of bugged me that Winona Ryder was in the movie. Don't know why, she just seemed out of place.

[eternaltriangle]

Originally Posted by Kisai To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Saw it. Waaaaaayy too much Deus Ex Mechana in the plot. ( Show Spoiler ) Complaints: Nero commands a mining vessel. A mining vessel 120 years in the future, but a mining vessel that can wipe out 49 Klingon ships and go engage Starfleet for dessert?? If that's a mining vessel, what the hell do Cardassians send to attack their enemies, ice cream trucks? What are they mining, Borg cubes? * * * A star explodes, threatening the universe. Spock moves to stop it. Nobody else in the universe makes a move, just Spock. The Cardassian homeworld is destroyed before Spock can do anything. Nero is enraged at Spock. Nero should be more enraged that he has a ship that can hold the entire population of Cardassia, but sat on his hands suddenly surprised that the star apparently blew up at Warp 9.9999999, crossing AUs like they were centimeters. * ** Spock goes to stop the exploding star. He's armed with Red Matter. He apparently only needs a little to actually do the job, but he brings enough with him to wipe out the whole galaxy. When this stockpile does get crashed into Nero's ship, again, only a little needed to destroy a planet, there are no magnified effects, no new galactic center, for instance. *** Spock is captain. Kirk enrages Spock by taunting him about his destroyed planet and dead mother. Spock becomes Kirk's friend. WTF? *** Spock is marooned on the same planet as Kirk. They manage to bump into each other. Spock knows the equations needed to send Kirk back. Somehow either Kirk, Scotty, or Spock knows the exact location of the Enterprise in Warp Space to the zettasecond. Somehow they don't know where Nero's ship is in order to plant 100 photon torpedos inside it. Somehow basic astrophysics, the expansion of space, isn't known to Scotty.

( Show Spoiler )

The marooning does actually make SOME sense. Keep in mind that Nero marooned Spock on the ice planet because it was close to Vulcan, and would enable him to see the destruction of his homeworld. Spock II marooned Kirk on the ice planet because it was also close to Vulcan (which is where they happened to be at the time). What is less plausible is that they happened to be at the same place (maybe it is a small planet - though the existence of megafauna does not suggest a small contained eco-system to me), and that Kirk found Spock not the other way around (Spock could potentially have seen the pod fall from space, or hear the noise caused by Kirk running away from giant alien monsters).

Also, as I understood it, the Federation sent Spock to save Romulus.

Your other points are pretty pertinent.

I saw the following weak points:

1. Kirk's dad uses his self destruct maneuver to save the ship, yet we know he doesn't destroy Nero's ship (because Nero is still around). If Nero is still around, what is stopping him from attacking the undefended shuttles? Additionally, you would think that software would exist in the future capable of driving a ship into another ship, eliminating the need for Kirk's father to die. Kirk's dad is an idiot, not a hero.

2. The federation seems to have forgotten to defend its planets - namely earth and Vulcan. I find it head-scratch worthy that there were no ships in orbit around those planets to defend them.

3. What the hell was Nero doing for 25 years? Nero hatched his red matter plan to destroy Vulcan 25 years before the events of the movie (that is revealed more or less by his dialogue at the start). This implies that he knows Spock had a ship with red matter, and knows what red matter can do. Therefore it seems strange that he is so bitter at the federation and Spock, since he must also know they were at least trying to save his planet. Moreover, not knowing when Spock would emerge from the event horizon, he must have waited in that same spot for 25 years. This should have been difficult to do since he was clearly an enemy of the federation.

4. Why did Pike send Kirk, Sulu and "ensign Ricky" to the drill bit armed with swords?

5. Kirk manages to travel 14+ kilometers in the arctic (the distance to the nearest federation base) without a snow-suit (or really any sign that he notices the cold).

These are not impossible events but they reflect a storyline that isn't as seamless as one might like.

[Synchronicity]

Originally Posted by eternaltriangle To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

( Show Spoiler ) The marooning does actually make SOME sense. Keep in mind that Nero marooned Spock on the ice planet because it was close to Vulcan, and would enable him to see the destruction of his homeworld. Spock II marooned Kirk on the ice planet because it was also close to Vulcan (which is where they happened to be at the time). What is less plausible is that they happened to be at the same place (maybe it is a small planet - though the existence of megafauna does not suggest a small contained eco-system to me), and that Kirk found Spock not the other way around (Spock could potentially have seen the pod fall from space, or hear the noise caused by Kirk running away from giant alien monsters). Also, as I understood it, the Federation sent Spock to save Romulus. Your other points are pretty pertinent. I saw the following weak points: 1. Kirk's dad uses his self destruct maneuver to save the ship, yet we know he doesn't destroy Nero's ship (because Nero is still around). If Nero is still around, what is stopping him from attacking the undefended shuttles? Additionally, you would think that software would exist in the future capable of driving a ship into another ship, eliminating the need for Kirk's father to die. Kirk's dad is an idiot, not a hero. 2. The federation seems to have forgotten to defend its planets - namely earth and Vulcan. I find it head-scratch worthy that there were no ships in orbit around those planets to defend them. 3. What the hell was Nero doing for 25 years? Nero hatched his red matter plan to destroy Vulcan 25 years before the events of the movie (that is revealed more or less by his dialogue at the start). This implies that he knows Spock had a ship with red matter, and knows what red matter can do. Therefore it seems strange that he is so bitter at the federation and Spock, since he must also know they were at least trying to save his planet. Moreover, not knowing when Spock would emerge from the event horizon, he must have waited in that same spot for 25 years. This should have been difficult to do since he was clearly an enemy of the federation. 4. Why did Pike send Kirk, Sulu and "ensign Ricky" to the drill bit armed with swords? 5. Kirk manages to travel 14+ kilometers in the arctic (the distance to the nearest federation base) without a snow-suit (or really any sign that he notices the cold). These are not impossible events but they reflect a storyline that isn't as seamless as one might like.

Let's see... where shall I begin?

( Show Spoiler )

First of all, you may have missed it earlier but I responded to someone earlier in the thread who mentioned the improbability of Kirk and Spock running into each other on the frozen moon. This is true to a point, but it becomes more plausible when you consider that both of them were close to the Starfleet outpost. It makes sense in Kirk's case since young Spock would obviously intend for him to land there (otherwise he would basically be condemning him to death), but less sense in old Spock's case. I hypothesized that Nero might have actually intentionally placed Spock within range of rescue. Nero made it clear that he wanted Spock to live with the same pain he felt, so it stands to reason that he would permit Spock to live with that pain.

Your first point: it was George Kirk's intention to autopilot the ship, but the autopilot was disabled. It flashes by pretty quick on the screen, but it's there. Star Trek has a long, long history of battle damage inconveniently disabling crucial functions.

Your second point is partly true. We don't know the size of Starfleet's armada, but it seems unreasonable that they would not have some ships to defend their home systems (especially considering their enemies have cloaking technology). To be fair, they DID have ships to defend Vulcan: the ones they sent along with the Enterprise, but I got the impression the ships and their crews were new and not yet ready to be taking underway, so there's that. On the other hand, the reason Nero interrogates Captain Pike is to gain the codes he needed to bypass the defenses surrounding Earth, so to Starfleet's credit they did have defenses in Earth sector (enough to make Nero worry, at the least)

You're right about number three. Nero is a loon. EDIT: Well, I suppose it's possible that Spock screwed up somehow and Nero holds him accountable, but we can't know either way since Spock gave very few details about the chain of events leading to the destruction of Romulus. What's even more stupid on Nero's part is destroying the one organization that could have saved Romulus again. What, did he think destroying the Federation would stop the star from going supernova again in 120 years?

Point four: Sulu had a sword because he is trained to use one. Kirk had a phaser, but it fell over the edge when he tried to pull it on one of the Romulans. Olson presumably had one too, but we'll never know because "he's dead, Jim."

Point five: let's have a little faith in Starfleet, eh? I'm sure Kirk's survival coat was more than just wool and terrycloth.

[eternaltriangle]

Originally Posted by Synchronicity To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Let's see... where shall I begin? ( Show Spoiler ) First of all, you may have missed it earlier but I responded to someone earlier in the thread who mentioned the improbability of Kirk and Spock running into each other on the frozen moon. This is true to a point, but it becomes more plausible when you consider that both of them were close to the Starfleet outpost. It makes sense in Kirk's case since young Spock would obviously intend for him to land there (otherwise he would basically be condemning him to death), but less sense in old Spock's case. I hypothesized that Nero might have actually intentionally placed Spock within range of rescue. Nero made it clear that he wanted Spock to live with the same pain he felt, so it stands to reason that he would permit Spock to live with that pain. Your first point: it was George Kirk's intention to autopilot the ship, but the autopilot was disabled. It flashes by pretty quick on the screen, but it's there. Star Trek has a long, long history of battle damage inconveniently disabling crucial functions. Your second point is partly true. We don't know the size of Starfleet's armada, but it seems unreasonable that they would not have some ships to defend their home systems (especially considering their enemies have cloaking technology). To be fair, they DID have ships to defend Vulcan: the ones they sent along with the Enterprise, but I got the impression the ships and their crews were new and not yet ready to be taking underway, so there's that. On the other hand, the reason Nero interrogates Captain Pike is to gain the codes he needed to bypass the defenses surrounding Earth, so to Starfleet's credit they did have defenses in Earth sector (enough to make Nero worry, at the least) You're right about number three. Nero is a loon. EDIT: Well, I suppose it's possible that Spock screwed up somehow and Nero holds him accountable, but we can't know either way since Spock gave very few details about the chain of events leading to the destruction of Romulus. What's even more stupid on Nero's part is destroying the one organization that could have saved Romulus again. What, did he think destroying the Federation would stop the star from going supernova again in 120 years? Point four: Sulu had a sword because he is trained to use one. Kirk had a phaser, but it fell over the edge when he tried to pull it on one of the Romulans. Olson presumably had one too, but we'll never know because "he's dead, Jim." Point five: let's have a little faith in Starfleet, eh? I'm sure Kirk's survival coat was more than just wool and terrycloth.

( Show Spoiler )

On point 1, fair enough, though it strengthens the point to add that it is extremely random that Scotty happened to be assigned to that particular outpost.

On point three I resolve to believe that Spock screwed up and arrived late due to incompetence. However, he is not willing to admit it.

Now, point 6, if Earth does have defenses capable of defeating Nero, how come nobody on the Enterprise thought to warn Earth that a crazy man was coming (possibly with codes tortured out of Admiral Pike). Nero seems to be able to get quite close to earth without any problems. The Enterprise is able to chase Nero effectively, despite a brief detour and the superior technology of Nero's ship. Presumably there must be at least some federation ships closer to Earth than both Nero and the Enterprise (at least at the point where they see Vulcan get destroyed).

Point 7, what the hell is Admiral Pike on when he promotes Kirk to first officer, from his previous rank of possibly expelled cadet (particularly given the history of the last encounter wit Nero). Even if Kirk is really smart he has absolutely no experience outside of the academy. Indeed, even as a student he clearly wasn't a very good one, and cheated on his final exam. Then again, the Enterprise is apparently staffed entirely with newbies for some reason.

Point 8, Spock's romance with Uhura is... irrational. It predates time-altering events that could possibly have impacted Spock's upbringing or Uhura's (I suppose you could make a ripple in time butterfly wings argument from the point of Kirk's birth onward), which means that it must have taken place in both the movie, and in the storyline of the original series. However, it is strange that there is absolutely no sign of this. In general, Quinto's Spock seems quite different from Nimoy's. He is smarmy where Nimoy is serenely logical, and apparently prone to snapping.

Random question: when did Starfleet decide to get affirmative action for aliens. The main crew of the enterprise in the original series is almost entirely human (save Spock). The crews tend to get progressively more diverse. Can anybody explain this definitively?

[Synchronicity]

Originally Posted by eternaltriangle To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

( Show Spoiler ) On point 1, fair enough, though it strengthens the point to add that it is extremely random that Scotty happened to be assigned to that particular outpost. On point three I resolve to believe that Spock screwed up and arrived late due to incompetence. However, he is not willing to admit it. Now, point 6, if Earth does have defenses capable of defeating Nero, how come nobody on the Enterprise thought to warn Earth that a crazy man was coming (possibly with codes tortured out of Admiral Pike). Nero seems to be able to get quite close to earth without any problems. The Enterprise is able to chase Nero effectively, despite a brief detour and the superior technology of Nero's ship. Presumably there must be at least some federation ships closer to Earth than both Nero and the Enterprise (at least at the point where they see Vulcan get destroyed). Point 7, what the hell is Admiral Pike on when he promotes Kirk to first officer, from his previous rank of possibly expelled cadet (particularly given the history of the last encounter wit Nero). Even if Kirk is really smart he has absolutely no experience outside of the academy. Indeed, even as a student he clearly wasn't a very good one, and cheated on his final exam. Then again, the Enterprise is apparently staffed entirely with newbies for some reason. Point 8, Spock's romance with Uhura is... irrational. It predates time-altering events that could possibly have impacted Spock's upbringing or Uhura's (I suppose you could make a ripple in time butterfly wings argument from the point of Kirk's birth onward), which means that it must have taken place in both the movie, and in the storyline of the original series. However, it is strange that there is absolutely no sign of this. In general, Quinto's Spock seems quite different from Nimoy's. He is smarmy where Nimoy is serenely logical, and apparently prone to snapping. Random question: when did Starfleet decide to get affirmative action for aliens. The main crew of the enterprise in the original series is almost entirely human (save Spock). The crews tend to get progressively more diverse. Can anybody explain this definitively?

( Show Spoiler )

Point six: I assumed there were no ships closer to the Narada than the Enterprise, and that she was busy chasing Nero from Vulcan to Earth. It was this presumption that made me question Spock's decision to regroup with the Starfleet ships returning from whatever sector they were busy in when the crisis started. While he was right about the Enterprise being outmatched by Nero's ship, I would think that the billions of lives in danger would make it worthwhile to at least try a different approach to stopping Nero (and indeed Chekov managed to come up with a strategy that ultimately worked).

I'll chalk up point seven to narrative expedience. Kirk needs to be the captain of the Enterprise for the movie to be "correct". I presume Pike decided to promote Kirk because he recognized his potential as a leader (additionally, many Starfleet captains have a reputation for preferring "maverick" officers to serve as second in command). Perhaps he was counting on Spock to counterbalance Kirk's temperament, which he did, to a point, before he shot him out the airlock :P

Point eight will simply have to be chalked up to all the other changes that happened, like Scotty ending up on Vulcan's moon or Chekov being on the crew of the Enterprise from day one. There would definitely be a butterfly effect resulting from the destruction of the Kelvin, and it gives the writers carte blanch to rewrite the story in a way that is more entertaining.

Oh, and as for your random question, it's probably just a budget thing. The old Star Trek probably preferred to spend their money on special effects instead of unique alien costumes. Despite the fact that the Federation consists of dozens of races, humans still dominate the crews of Starfleet ships. From an in-universe standpoint, the increased diversity can be explained by the addition of new races into the UFP, which happens every once and a while.

[Allie]

It has been awhile since I last saw the TV series. So, with distance and blurred minute details, I will say that I really enjoyed the movie. It did what it was supposed to, which is to entertain.

( Show Spoiler )

Not sure if this is spoiler worthy, but better safe than sorry:

The old series were not cluttered and were thought provoking, whereas this movie is Star Trek on steroid. Zachary Quinto did a great job as Spock. I really did identify with him as the young Spock. All in all, I have been ready for a refresh on these series though.

However, I do think they cheated with the alternate timeline. This is the easiest fix to any story, when it comes to sci fi--IMHO.

[eternaltriangle]

Originally Posted by Allie To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

It has been awhile since I last saw the TV series. So, with distance and blurred minute details, I will say that I really enjoyed the movie. It did what it was supposed to, which is to entertain. ( Show Spoiler ) Not sure if this is spoiler worthy, but better safe than sorry: The old series were not cluttered and were thought provoking, whereas this movie is Star Trek on steroid. Zachary Quinto did a great job as Spock. I really did identify with him as the young Spock. All in all, I have been ready for a refresh on these series though. However, I do think they cheated with the alternate timeline. This is the easiest fix to any story, when it comes to sci fi--IMHO.

	At least they didn't use "it was all a dream" - which incidentally was the Duckman Star Trek parody approach. Actually this movie had more than a few similarities to that episode of Duckman.

[Rudy]

Saw the movie yesterday, and absolutely adored it.

( Show Spoiler )

I thought the alternate universe they set up is absolutely brilliant. If they did not do so, the limitations on future movies with this new take would have been too great, and too predictable. They get to keep the familiarity of the old crew, while introducing a completely new overall plot line.

[Mozzes]

Originally Posted by Allie To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

( Show Spoiler ) Not sure if this is spoiler worthy, but better safe than sorry: The old series were not cluttered and were thought provoking, whereas this movie is Star Trek on steroid. Zachary Quinto did a great job as Spock. I really did identify with him as the young Spock. All in all, I have been ready for a refresh on these series though. However, I do think they cheated with the alternate timeline. This is the easiest fix to any story, when it comes to sci fi--IMHO.

( Show Spoiler )

I agree with this. The least they could've done was give us some mind unraveling time travel paradoxes to chew on.

[Kisai]

Time travelling paradoxes turn off general movie audiences like cold water on nuns. Even Doc Brown and a chalkboard can't keep them up to speed.

I'm just wondering which direction they're going with this. Are they going to riff off the original series? A 'City on the Edge of Forever' movie or a 'Pon-farr' twist? I really hope that they develop Chekov, Scotty, and Sulu's personality a bit.

[lilaznme423]

Hey guys,
It's been a really long times since I've logged on, due to classes and such. I went to see Star Trek yesterday, I personally thought that it would not be my cup of tea, and I now LOVE STAR TREK. I've just discovered that Mr. Spock in the movie is and INTJ...^________^ and I LOVE HOW HE ACTS!! I find him so endearing because of how he communicates to other (logic rocks), and how he is able to control his emotions at most times^_^...so much more to say about what I AM CRAZY about Mr. Spock! But, I want to know what you guys think of him. So please respond^_^

[Rho1334]

Spock is the shangri la of logical thinking...i love him. But i think nimoy is better than thee other guy.

[AnotherNormal]

	Originally Posted by lilaznme423 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I've just discovered that Mr. Spock in the movie is and INTJ...^________^ and I LOVE HOW HE ACTS!! I AM CRAZY about Mr. Spock!

You can be crazy about him but there seems to be some debate regarding his type.

He may not be an intj.
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[rarnesen]

Great movie..

[ssrprotege]

Uh, Spock is more of an ISTJ, I heard. Oh well.

[Cygnus]

	Originally Posted by ssrprotege To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Uh, Spock is more of an ISTJ, I heard. Oh well.

Negative. Spock is highly intuitive, likely, just as intuitive as Kirk. Details and facts consistantly get incorperated into a larger understanding of a pattern or a theroy for him. He trusts his own flashes of insight and also trusts them in others, most of the time. Additionally, I believe he eventually became an ambassador, due to his experience, judgement, and intuition.

[ssrprotege]

	Originally Posted by Cygnus To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Negative. Spock is highly intuitive, likely, just as intuitive as Kirk. Details and facts consistantly get incorperated into a larger understanding of a pattern or a theroy for him. He trusts his own flashes of insight and also trusts them in others, most of the time To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Read
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
and refute some of the points addressed here, please. I at first thought he was an INTJ with a super-strong J, too.

[runoverazebra]

I really enjoyed the movie. I have never seen any of the earlier movies or the tv shows, but I still loved the movie.

[LionsPride]

I just altered the title so you don't have to put your text in spoilers anymore.

I've enjoyed the discussion thus far, interesting comments. I too wondered why they made such a huge amount of black hole inducing red matter when a little dab will do ya. Also, Why would you have a dangerous platform diving mission and only give one guy the charges? Was the plot improved by Kirk picking up a gun and just shooting the platform until it broke?

Overall I loved the movie and laughed out loud in a number of spots. Some were even parts that were supposed to be laughed at.
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I laughed to myself when Spock was talking to his mother and asked if he went all Vulcan if she would be upset and she then tells him she'd be proud regardless. I know it was supposed to be touching, but I was thinking "Brilliant, reassure someone who's thinking emotions aren't valuable by saying telling them you are emotionally proud of them. Ya, that makes sense."
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[More Tea]

	Originally Posted by Mozzes To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	That looks like the new Enterprise in your avatar. Is that some sort of ironic protest?

It was the old Enterprise from--I think--Star Trek IV. I combined the shot with a painting of a nebula. I might bring the old avatar back once the masses stop going on about the new movie. But for now, I'm thinking an adorable Pallas cat is in order.

[Latro]

Some reviews I have seen have described the most recent Star Trek movie as being very good (others have described it as very bad; strangely I have found no moderate reviews, heh). Having never seen any of the show beyond a very basic familiarity with some basic things (e.g. Vulcans almost never show emotion), I thought it was a pretty mediocre action movie. Fantastic special effects, virtually nothing else of interest.