[fatcowmccloud]

I've noticed most people with Asperger's test out to be INTJ, INTP, ISTJ or ISTP but I'm wondering if Aspie cognitive processes actually bear any semblance to those of a "neurotypical" INTJ/INTP/ISTJ/ISTP. Are MBTI types really even applicable to Aspies? I'm reading these type descriptions and the only one that sounds even close is INTP, if only for the fact that Aspies are persistently lost in their own world of thought.

Thoughts?

[Latro]

It's been asked before. My thoughts:
More I's.
More T's.
Those who are F are more P. (Autism spectrum conditions are largely about a deficit of empathy. Fe is an empathy function, and FJs have it as one of their top two functions).

I don't really have any thoughts on N/S, nor about J/P in Ts. So this makes the typical Aspie an IxTx, in my eyes. Not really as much information as you might expect I guess. I'm inclined to call Aspies more N...but then they sometimes can become very obsessive (for lack of a better word; it's 1 am, I guarantee there's a better word here) about a particular thing, which I think might be more S than N.

Technically MBTI has been deemed (by its creators) to be invalid in those who are not neurotypical, though, as I recall.

[fatcowmccloud]

	Autism spectrum conditions are largely about a deficit of empathy. Fe is an empathy function, and FJs have it as one of their top two functions

Another thing Aspies naturally lack is the ability to think critically or truly deeply about anything (when I'm thinking about something I'm really interested in, what's happening is the thoughts are just sort of flying in and out of my head in the form of images, sounds, etc. I might be completely lost in this world my mind creates but there really is nothing going on) so the T function seems to be more pronounced as a result of their lack of empathy & their being over-rational about everything.

	I'm inclined to call Aspies more N...but then they sometimes can become very obsessive (for lack of a better word; it's 1 am, I guarantee there's a better word here) about a particular thing, which I think might be more S than N.

Obsessive is the perfect word, yeah.

	Technically MBTI has been deemed (by its creators) to be invalid in those who are not neurotypical, though, as I recall.

That's silly, considering Einstein, Newton, & Socrates who are considered historical INTP's all most probably had Asperger's Syndrome...

[admittedheretic]

The classical or literally typical person with Aspeger's syndrome has a deficit of something known as Theory of Mind (ToM.) Theory of Mind is the awareness that other people have thoughts separate from ones own. Those with lack of ToM will often assume that other people think the same way they do or be baffled about why people do what they do. Without ToM it should be easily understood that empathy does not exist.

There is great diversity amongst people with Asperger's syndrome because not everyone has the same thing. Asperger's is 100% diagnosed based of behavioral observations which leaves plenty room for error or uncertainty. The science fields dedicated to autism are full of black and white ideas, but some people are finally piecing together the grey puzzle. Using medical imagining it is irrefutable that certain sub groups of those with Asperger's have Autism, but in a milder form. A common false generalization is that all Aspie's lack empathy, but I think if you got to know a couple of them you would quickly find out this isn't the case. Some Aspie's have excessive empathy because they have intact theory of mind.

The majority of people with high function Asperger's will never know such a conidtion exists, but they will none the less suffer a significant loss of quality of life. The INTJ knows his inner workings very well so I think they are more inclined to discovering they would fit such label which makes it obviously seem more prevalent amongst the population. INTJ also tend to be self absorbed and when they view such a condition as a disease or misfortune they will avoid such a matter to spare their ego.

[Latro]

Originally Posted by fatcowmccloud To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Another thing Aspies naturally lack is the ability to think critically or truly deeply about anything (when I'm thinking about something I'm really interested in, what's happening is the thoughts are just sort of flying in and out of my head in the form of images, sounds, etc. I might be completely lost in this world my mind creates but there really is nothing going on) so the T function seems to be more pronounced as a result of their lack of empathy & their being over-rational about everything.

The way I'm interpreting this is that an Aspie's T function seems more pronounced than it is because of their extreme rationality and minimal empathy. (I say this because I'm not sure my interpretation is correct.) This...may not quite work as well as you might think, based on some things I've learned recently. Specifically, some of the swirling mass of chaotic thoughts that you're describing actually IS Ti. I have issues with this as well; a lot of that stuff seems like it HAS to be N, and yet it isn't. Pattern recognition jumps out at me in particular; unless I don't see it quickly, there is no "thinking" in my sense of the word involved in pattern recognition.

	Obsessive is the perfect word, yeah.

I didn't want to use it because of its connotation; it makes it seem particularly bad that they become so deeply interested in whatever thing they wind up interested in, which is not something I meant to imply. Its denotation fits quite well, though, I agree.

But now that it's morning, I think I have a better way to say it: they become engrossed in a particular thing, which again might be more S than N. Somehow that "clicks" better for me, based on what I've read (which is admittedly not a whole lot), than "obsessive about".

	That's silly, considering Einstein, Newton, & Socrates who are considered historical INTP's all most probably had Asperger's Syndrome...

Perhaps. I don't really have a source to support that claim; just something I heard I think either here or on another MBTI forum. It does make some sense, though; at the very least using MBTI on non-neurotypical people seems like a slippery slope.

[Kalarchis]

Originally Posted by admittedheretic To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

The classical or literally typical person with Aspeger's syndrome has a deficit of something known as Theory of Mind (ToM.) Theory of Mind is the awareness that other people have thoughts separate from ones own. Those with lack of ToM will often assume that other people think the same way they do or be baffled about why people do what they do. Without ToM it should be easily understood that empathy does not exist.

This is it entirely. My brother has Asperger's, and is ISFJ. Which brings me to this:

	Another thing Aspies naturally lack is the ability to think critically or truly deeply about anything

I gonna call bull on that one.

[admittedheretic]

Some Aspies do think significantly differently and I could understand why people would misconceptualize this as poor critical thinking. To elaborate the typical Aspie is a very visual learner and thinker. There brains are wired to process such information better than typical people can, but at the expense of other functions like auditory and kinesthetics. A hallmark of ADHD is processing information at the expense of the others. One may not be able to explain that a towel goes on the rack after a shower to a visual Aspie child, but if you visually show them what to do they will understand.

Einstein is a classic example of a visual Aspie and I don't think anyone would accuse him as having a lack of critical thinking.

If you've seen a post of mine you might know that I have been diagnosed with Aspeger's, but I lack visual ability. I can't even visualize a simple blue circle or red square in my imagination. I believe I am an extremely auditory dominant learner/thinker which really allows me to communicate my abstract and critical abilities to others.

What I hope you take from that is that doesn't make much since to apply MBTI types to such generalized views on what Asperger's is.

[Latro]

Originally Posted by admittedheretic To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

If you've seen a post of mine you might know that I have been diagnosed with Aspeger's, but I lack visual ability. I can't even visualize a simple blue circle or red square in my imagination. I believe I am an extremely auditory dominant learner/thinker which really allows me to communicate my abstract and critical abilities to others. What I hope you take from that is that doesn't make much since to apply MBTI types to such generalized views on what Asperger's is.

Auditory Asperger's sounds like NLD. I'm extremely auditory myself, for instance.

[Solaris]

It doesn't matter if you think it's silly or not, MBTI and Jung Typology are widely accepted to have less accuracy/validity when mental illness is involved. It's difficult enough for "normal" people to type themselves properly much of the time, let alone the difficulty of adding abnormal behavioral patterns into the mix. Since many of the people you listed as probably having Asperger's and being INTP were never actually tested for either, I don't think it's a good stance to take in supporting your argument.

[Latro]

	Originally Posted by Kalarchis To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	My brother has Asperger's, and is ISFJ.

This perplexes me, being an exception to my initial model. How does auxiliary Fe work in someone with Asperger's? Serious question; I'm not trying to contest your statement.

[CatalystAK]

I actually considered the fact that I had Asperger's before I did the MBTI and came up as INTJ. For me, I did lots of research into Asperger's and actually talked with a few Aspies. While we are very similar(in fact, the friend I have that also has Asperger's also tested as INTJ) I do think there are some vital differences.

For one, while Aspies usually only have one main interest at a time that they follow through and study at the exclusion of everything else, INTJ's seem to have many things that can interest them at once.

INTJ's greatly enjoy sarcasm and employ it regularly, Aspies seem to lack the ability to use sarcasm and sometimes don't even understand it.

I know there are more but these are the main differences. Back to the original topic I do think that Aspies share the most in common with the ISTJ, INTJ and INTP types.

[admittedheretic]

The reason an autistic person would not understand sarcasm is again because of a lack of theory of mind. They aren't able to wonder why the other person would have said something so they resort to taking it literally.

Another reason why sarcasm could be misinterpreted is if an Apsie is not able to understand body language and facial expressions. The only sort of sarcasm that confuses me is when people joke around with me. I can't read the body language so I don't know if people are just playing around or are serious. I understand literal sarcasm just fine.

Now someone with both of these traits probably won't be able to understand sarcasm at all.

[Latro]

	Originally Posted by admittedheretic To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I understand literal sarcasm just fine.

Isn't "literal sarcasm" kind of an oxymoron? Can you give an example of this, maybe?

[fatcowmccloud]

	Originally Posted by Kalarchis To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I gonna call bull on that one.

Aspies might be intelligent in that their brains can work out logical sequences very quickly but they lack higher-level thinking and understanding abilities, and have poor executive function (working memory, fluid intelligence, focus, etc... poor executive function is what is usually blamed for poor social skills, it's like ADHD taken to another level).

	Since many of the people you listed as probably having Asperger's and being INTP were never actually tested for either, I don't think it's a good stance to take in supporting your argument.

then why on every single mbti test does it say "historical INTP's, blah blah blah Albert Einstein" and alot of INTP type descriptions I've read are basically based on Einstein's behavior? From what I've read, Einstein is pretty much a classic case of Asperger's syndrome so tbh I'd say he was an Aspie beyond much reasonable doubt (some say he may not have had Asperger's because of his sense of humor, but I know some Aspies that are fucking hilarious...)

	For one, while Aspies usually only have one main interest at a time that they follow through and study at the exclusion of everything else, INTJ's seem to have many things that can interest them at once. INTJ's greatly enjoy sarcasm and employ it regularly, Aspies seem to lack the ability to use sarcasm and sometimes don't even understand it.

INTJ's are also able to initiate and sustain conversations... something Aspies don't really know how to do at all.

[Kalarchis]

	Originally Posted by fatcowmccloud To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Aspies might be intelligent in that their brains can work out logical sequences very quickly but they lack higher-level thinking and understanding abilities INTJ's are also able to initiate and sustain conversations... something Aspies don't really know how to do at all.

Again, bull. "Lack higher-level thinking"? What does that even mean? I see people throw that phrase around a lot and it's nonsense. They like to use it at school, a nice goal to hold over kids' heads. It's imaginary; just a heat haze.

My brother has no more trouble starting and working conversations than any other introvert. I've spent many nights talking with him for hours. I can have conversations just as deep with him as I can with my other ISFJ friend.

[fatcowmccloud]

...Are you sure your brother has Asperger's? If Aspies don't have "that much" trouble initiating conversations, I don't see how the syndrome is nearly as disadvantageous as it's made out to be.

His preference for Feeling is very odd for an Aspie, too.

[Kalarchis]

He definitely has Asperger's, and he has not always been as "normal" as he is now. He has put a great deal of personal effort into fixing his difficulties. He's 22 and in the last couple years has really matured and come into his own. He still has problems with Theory of Mind: controlling the volume of his voice when excited, detecting sarcasm and such in others' voices, knowing when enough is enough, etc. Most people think he's just another weird kid. I should also mention that we're fraternal twins.

The difference is, where you see "no higher-level thinking," I see only potential.

[insane]

ASD is Aspergers/Autism Spectrum Disorder (Autism being the 'extreme' end of the scale). It is not the same as having an amputated body part, being that it remains so. If someone is diagnosed with ASD, a characteristic (such being anti-social) can change throughout the persons life. It is concept derived from Jungian theories that everything can be described as being on sliding scale. 'Naturally' 'training' (in critical - higher - thinking, Theory of Mind etc) can alter someones position on the scale.
The MBTI is a guide to personality types. It dosnt necessarily have to fit 'normal' people.
I myself am ISTJ (an undiagnosed 'aspie') whom loves sarcasm and humour (leaning on 'F' there). Where i possibly differ from the typology is that my sense of humour is only shared with those i am comfortable with. This sense of humour is related to relevant things in life (like a good comedian) - highlighting the obvious inaccuracies etc - which is possibly related to critical thinking of a scenario.
An aspies brain is 'wired' differently, to obtain and retain information rather than socialising. That is a trait that is not necessarily holistic in nature, as learning (socially for example) can move the indicator on the slide.

[Solaris]

Originally Posted by insane To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

ASD is Aspergers/Autism Spectrum Disorder (Autism being the 'extreme' end of the scale). It is not the same as having an amputated body part, being that it remains so. If someone is diagnosed with ASD, a characteristic (such being anti-social) can change throughout the persons life. It is concept derived from Jungian theories that everything can be described as being on sliding scale. 'Naturally' 'training' (in critical - higher - thinking, Theory of Mind etc) can alter someones position on the scale. The MBTI is a guide to personality types. It dosnt necessarily have to fit 'normal' people. I myself am ISTJ (an undiagnosed 'aspie') whom loves sarcasm and humour (leaning on 'F' there). Where i possibly differ from the typology is that my sense of humour is only shared with those i am comfortable with. This sense of humour is related to relevant things in life (like a good comedian) - highlighting the obvious inaccuracies etc - which is possibly related to critical thinking of a scenario. An aspies brain is 'wired' differently, to obtain and retain information rather than socialising. That is a trait that is not necessarily holistic in nature, as learning (socially for example) can move the indicator on the slide.

I disagree completely. The types are written to be as general as possible and for "mentally stable" people. As ASD is a mental abnormality, it makes MBTI typing less accurate, as many of us have previously stated.

[admittedheretic]

	Originally Posted by Latro To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Isn't "literal sarcasm" kind of an oxymoron? Can you give an example of this, maybe?

I understand sarcasm perfectly in context and from tone of voice, but I personally can't tell from body language/facial expressions. So, if someone doesn't change their voice much and the only hint they give is their face, then I might miss it.

Now some 9lower functioning Mentally Retarded with AS) people don't even have the conceptional ability to make sense of sarcasm.

There is a HUGE difference.

[Latro]

Originally Posted by admittedheretic To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I understand sarcasm perfectly in context and from tone of voice, but I personally can't tell from body language/facial expressions. So, if someone doesn't change their voice much and the only hint they give is their face, then I might miss it. Now some 9lower functioning Mentally Retarded with AS) people don't even have the conceptional ability to make sense of sarcasm. There is a HUGE difference.

But then it's not literal, but instead derived from nonverbal auditory cues and/or context, isn't it?

Also, I can relate. I'm still abysmal about visual cues.

[insane]

	Originally Posted by Solaris To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I disagree completely. The types are written to be as general as possible and for "mentally stable" people. As ASD is a mental abnormality, it makes MBTI typing less accurate, as many of us have previously stated.

Even you admit that MBTI is a guide. But why does the MBTI test only have to be for "normal" people, when there are types that can genuinely define someone with a neurological abnormality? I dont mean to say that these types are specifically designed for "abnormal" people. If someone has a deficiency like ASD, then why does it make results for a "normal" person less accurate?

"As ASD is a mental abnormality, it makes MBTI typing less accurate, as many of us have previously stated." The only person i have seen post such a statement is yourself. There is so much variety in personalities with Apies that you cant put one type of (MBTI) label on the Aspie populace. That is a reoccurring theme throughout the posts.

	What I hope you take from that is that doesn't make much since to apply MBTI types to such generalized views on what Asperger's is

.

I think this quote sums up nicely what i am trying to say.

[Latte]

Reviving thread for social learnings of aspergers for make benefit glorious forum of intj


To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


I know for sure that some aspies have it that way. Social wallhax that can't be turned off can drain energy and hurts unless one is near-buddhaely finely tuned. Oft, it is connected to what I would call intuitive-leap synaesthesias, where way of expression, be it verbal, bodily expressions or other, is intuitively understood in the form of states of mind, which have their corresponding sensory equivalents for the individual.

It is an alternative way of developing theory of mind to the normal linguistically bound conceptualized manners in which most people structure their understanding.

[shytiger]

The article makes a lot of sense for me because for a long time I behaved exactly like somebody with Aspergers until I was able to get a handle on all of the emotions coming at me. I typed as INTP until the last couple of years. But, as they say in the article, "if you've seen one Aspie, you've seen one aspie." It seems to me that if somebody has this over-sensitivity it would be possible for him/her to overcome the "condition" as I have and be completely socially functional. Most clinicians assume that Aspergers/Autism spectrum never goes away, although they may be wrong since the condition is little understood. Whether this is a true "about face" or another condition is not clear. Can a distinction be made between "true" Aspergers with the original definition and Aspergers-like mechanisms to cope with over-empathy?

[baixue88]

I have a friend with Aspergers, let me tell you she is ANYTHING but INXX or ISXX. Definitely an exact opposite, in fact.

When I was younger, my mom was worried I was an Aspie. She took me in for testing, and the results were "She doesn't have Aspergers, she just doesn't give a crap." Not those exact words of course.