[ranwayslo]

So as a sort of small follow up to the white knight thing. I am experiencing a sort of paradigm shift. I recently had a conversation with a woman that was requesting my help. I told her frankly and in no uncertain terms that I was not interested in helping her solve all of her problems. That if she wanted to spend time with me that it would have to be as equals and not with her as a dependent. I told her that the issue was her problem and she needed to figure it out on her own. She got very pissy and revealed that she knew the girl the White Knight thread was about and further revealed that they had talked about me and she got the idea that I would be willing to help her out for a while. She then threw a royal fit and ranted on for quite a while about all the ways in which she was/is superior to the other girl and I was stupid for wasting time on the other girl and wanting to know what made her less special and blah blah blah...I'm honestly considering moving to another continent at this point.

I listened to all her bullshit for a while then did something that I rarely do with supposed damsels in distress. I lost my temper. I told her exactly what I think about the both of them and sent her sorry ass packing.

Now they are both texting me and calling me asking me to come over and call them back. I have a major case of wtf! Currently I'm ignoring both women. I don't want anything to do with either one. I found it very disturbing that I had been discussed at all and that this new woman decided that I would be an easy mark. I'm slightly put out at the moment and suffering from a lowered opinion of females in general. I am quite certain given the number of female friends that I have who don't act this way that I will quickly recover, but just now I am still pissed.


So my question is WTF?

[Jinxu]

It's been awhile and I've never read the White Knight thread. Can you give us a quick rewind?

[rickster]

	Originally Posted by ranwayslo To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	So my question is WTF?

Haaaa!!!! WTF indeed!

It can be all summed up in one old adage: "Birds of a feather flock together".

In reality, when we clean house we need to do each and every wing of the joint. It's rarely about giving one individual the heave-ho: it's usually the whole damned network that needs to hit the highway.

In the words of one of my gurus, Marianne Williamson: "It's not that we should be asking ourselves "Why do I keep meeting women like this?" - it's that we should be asking ourselves "Why do i keep giving women like this my number?""
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

[ranwayslo]

	Originally Posted by Jinxu To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	It's been awhile and I've never read the White Knight thread. Can you give us a quick rewind?

Drama, more drama, a lot more drama...drama again, drama(drama), drama cubed. INTJ looking around wondering wtf happened, and yet realizing that he is entirely responsible then pulling the plug on the whole thing and then nuclear drama followed by a commitment to understand the flaw in the approach to relationships in which several smarter people made some excellent points. However its like being a spirit in a world of conjurers, once they know your name you will never get any peace.

On a serious note I have in the past been attracted to needy females and attempted to help them develop themselves into fully functional people. It has been decided I believe that this is either a manifestation of control issues, a sign of poor personal emotional development, mommy issues, or a combination of any of the above spiced with other contributing factors. The usual result was to my satisfaction in which the female arrived at a point where she was no longer dependent upon me and moved on. The most recent foray involved an extremely self destructive young woman who fed on my support to enable her pattern of behavior and I got sucked into her world, until her behavior began to affect me and it quite frankly broke my heart to see her doing those things to herself and I had to give up trying to help her as I had become as much of a contributor to the problem as anyone else.

I have since tried to distance myself as much as humanly possible but I still hear things and apparently she has taken a nose dive into the abyss. I am constantly hardening myself to her plight and refusing to get involved in similar situations.

[Mader]

Don't know the White Knight thread.

Kinda suspect it means that you help those who need help and tend to attract those who need help.

If she wanted help she should have said so at the beginning. It is bad form to be nice (suck up) to someone just because they can be useful. It is bad form to date someone because they can be useful to you.

I agree, WTF. Users. avoid them Dysfunctional people seem to find each other and cling together. Yes, the 'birds of a feather flock together'. I spent a major portion of my life trying to prove this wrong. My therapist explained to me (I tend to be thickheaded) that if two alcoholics show up to a cocktail party, somehow, by the end f the night, they will find each other and become 'best buddies'.

You done good, rickster is right. clean house, then, if necessary, make a list of red flags so you can pick up on this even earlier in the relationship. BTW, this happens to both men and women. Not all women are evil or users, keep looking, you will find a nice woman.

[Night Runner]

Interesting... Are you going to apply this paradigm to the rest of your life? If so, how? Could you keep us posted?
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


I've been having a similar problem for a very long time: people would confuse my kindness for weakness and attempt to exploit it. It caused quite a few disasters in the past. At the moment, I'm neutral - but I'm seriously considering giving this up and start putting my interests first.

[wotsamattaU]

I just recently untangled myself from a similar situation. Promptly wrote out a red flag list for myself to refer back to. This is the short version:

• don't allow anyone to emotionally manipulate you

• drop the relationship as soon as you realize they are batshit crazy

• don't allow yourself to get sucked into the vortex of anyone else's BS

• if the drama never ends - cut them loose

• if they continually play the victim and won't accept responsibility for their actions - run

• don't buy this 'help me I'm trying to change, I don't know what to do' BS

• if you are feeling drained of your life's energy after dealing with them - cut the cord

• if the friendship seems overwhelmingly lopsided - recognize you are being used

[WaeV]

I hope you find a girl who is as devoted to your happiness as you are to hers.
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

[Silence]

I agree- and I'm going to say that I'm proud of you for making a stand and sticking to it. I've known TB's (Toxic Bitches) like that, and they're very much the same person inside. The world revolves around them, Entitlement Soup flows through their veins, and they are positively outraged when you stop living your life for them and commence with your own.

I find it ludicrous that the second one would come a-sniffing at you, after they clearly discussed how to divide you up. Ignore their calls and texts, and they'll move on like the scavengers they are when there is no more emotional profit to be gained from you. Pity Parasites tend to band together like leeches; when there is no victim to be playing, they can stroke each other's ego and re-affirm that they so need/deserve someone to save them from their wretched lives (all the while ignoring the fact that they've made their own wretched bed).

You deserve someone far better- someone that challenges you and brings out the best.

[duende60]

Non-monetary prostitution.

It sounds like these women view you as a sort of low-rent sugar daddy, only instead of paying in LaBoutins and diamonds, you pay in more practical services and problem solving. It doesn't sound like they see any particular value in you, as a person, but only as a tool to get things they need done, done. Not very flattering to you, and you are right to feel consternation at their cold-blooded discussion of how you might be used.

Your declaration of standards is a good start in changing your luck, I think. Its fine to be helpful and open-hearted, but you maybe need to separate that from your sexual/romantic life. As you stated, if a woman wants to be in a relationship with you, it needs to be on equal footing, with each of you wanting the other *person*, not whatever that person can give them. Stay away from the young women who haven't grown up, and look for ones that are doing it for themselves. They may not be wearing booty shorts and hanging out at party spots (thought they might, you never know,) cause they'll likely be working, or taking care of their kids, or what have you. In other words, start looking for an adult woman, not a child who needs a nanny.

Oh, and for heaven's sake, block their phone numbers.

[Seriously]

Wow. I can't believe that...well I can but I don't want to. Where do these women come from??

Anyways it's good you found out sooner than later and put a stop to it. Hopefully you will find a real woman who isn't look for someone to leach off of but someone to share with.

[eri]

I'm glad to hear that when you refused to help, she blew up and let out that she knew the other girl...that's great.

[ranwayslo]

Originally Posted by Night Runner To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Interesting... Are you going to apply this paradigm to the rest of your life? If so, how? Could you keep us posted? To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. I've been having a similar problem for a very long time: people would confuse my kindness for weakness and attempt to exploit it. It caused quite a few disasters in the past. At the moment, I'm neutral - but I'm seriously considering giving this up and start putting my interests first.

Honestly yes I am. I striving toward an equilibrium. In my career I always look out for myself first. Not in the cut throat climb over someone to get ahead way, but in the if you cost me money or threaten my job you must go kind of way. It just makes good sense in my mind. I'm now applying the strategy and tactics that have made me successful at work to all areas of my life. I"m also toning down my natural aggression at work by tempering my behavior with some of the patience I have up to now reserved for the "damsels". I'm hoping to see a net gain of reduced drama in both areas. It certainly won't hurt my chances for advancement at work to be less threatening to my superiors. I know from previous experience in the dating world that a certain level of assertion and aggression is not necessarily a bad thing.

Really, what this amounts to is dropping the social persona's and projecting the INTJ all the time. The way I will apply this and save my job is I will be silent when I do not have anything pleasantly constructive to say.

On another note, Rickster's post brought something to mind that I should have realized.

	In the words of one of my gurus, Marianne Williamson: "It's not that we should be asking ourselves "Why do I keep meeting women like this?" - it's that we should be asking ourselves "Why do i keep giving women like this my number?""

I didn't give either woman my number, the second got it from the first and the first tracked me down through a mutual acquaintance after I helped her get her car started. So I'm going to take a step back from the dating scene for a while until I get my network cleaned out. I used to have a rule about people who gave my number out without permission.

I must admit that it has been a little bit depressing to be viewed as a resource and not as a person. However I do know that all women are not like that. And I will keep telling myself this until I believe it.





ranwayslo added to this post, 3 minutes and 9 seconds later...

	Originally Posted by Seriously To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Wow. I can't believe that...well I can but I don't want to. Where do these women come from?? Anyways it's good you found out sooner than later and put a stop to it. Hopefully you will find a real woman who isn't look for someone to leach off of but someone to share with.

Yeah, I found out that it wasn't going to go anywhere within 5 minutes of meeting this second woman. The whole fiasco was over in under 30 minutes. My guard is up. I don't forget things quickly and unfortunately I do not forgive easily. It would be nice if these women all looked a certain way or wore some kind of uniform. It would make them readily identifiable.

[rickster]

Originally Posted by ranwayslo To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Honestly yes I am. I striving toward an equilibrium. In my career I always look out for myself first. Not in the cut throat climb over someone to get ahead way, but in the if you cost me money or threaten my job you must go kind of way. It just makes good sense in my mind. I'm now applying the strategy and tactics that have made me successful at work to all areas of my life. I"m also toning down my natural aggression at work by tempering my behavior with some of the patience I have up to now reserved for the "damsels". I'm hoping to see a net gain of reduced drama in both areas. It certainly won't hurt my chances for advancement at work to be less threatening to my superiors. I know from previous experience in the dating world that a certain level of assertion and aggression is not necessarily a bad thing.

But isn't equilibrium - or more correctly a desire for a truly integrated life - one of the goals of your paradigm shift anyhow? That is, a life which isn't defined by continual dramas and spiking dysfunction in one area all the time?

	Originally Posted by Seriously To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Wow. I can't believe that...well I can but I don't want to. Where do these women come from?? Anyways it's good you found out sooner than later and put a stop to it. Hopefully you will find a real woman who isn't look for someone to leach off of but someone to share with.

A good woman is on her way for you. That's a certainty. There's an excess of single women who are truly wonderful in every way, and they're wanting to meet a man just like you. When she's actually going to turn up is essentially none of your business, because right now you are busy successfully implementing a paradigm shift in your thinking about all areas of your life.

The souffle will collapse if you keep opening the oven door before it's done!
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

[wittykitty]

Good job ranwayslo! Now for a healthy, independent and intelligent woman to pop up and have you be her damsel in distress!

[duende60]

Originally Posted by rickster To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

A good woman is on her way for you. That's a certainty. There's an excess of single women who are truly wonderful in every way, and they're wanting to meet a man just like you. When she's actually going to turn up is essentially none of your business, because right now you are busy successfully implementing a paradigm shift in your thinking about all areas of your life. The souffle will collapse if you keep opening the oven door before it's done! To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Oh, thats beautiful, Rickster! And, very true, too.

Ranwayslo, I salute you for recognizing the need to examine your own paradigms and shift them as necessary to reorient your life in a better direction. You are preparing yourself for a much better future, and I know you will eventually encounter a woman who will love you for the essence of the man you are, and not just for what she can get you to do for her. You deserve no less!

[catzmeow]

I don't think that it is just INTJs who are prone to "rescuing" behavior. Many personality types have issues with giving our time and emotions to non-reciprocal relationships. When I find myself giving too much, I have learned to back off and learn to receive. It works better that way. And, it doesn't leave me feeling drained and unappreciated.

[PortInStorm]

Echo the "nicely done". I'm not totally sure about the losing your temper part, but that is to be preferred to letting them bleed you dry. Wish sincerely that you met a quality partner to share with. Best of luck, buddy, you have great intentions.

[reb]

ranwayslo,

been there; done that.

last one, i had done nothing to encourage her; she picked me 'somehow'-attitude? expression? convenience? dunno. she kept trying to get me to go dancing/out to eat (i don't think it would have been a monetary 'hep me', but an emotional 'hep me'). i demurred.

i had made the mistake of giving her an email address, since she was a friend of a mutual friend. did not realize he would let someone that balled up near him.

the emails got nasty when i would not do as desired. i kept copies of the emails. a friend said 'ya got enough to support stalking?' and i said 'good idea! i think i do.'

i emailed the whackadoo 'i have copies of the last two weeks of emails, profanity included. i am now sending copies of them to my isp, and will print them out. if get ONE more, am going to the county da with the whole stack.'.

never heard another word. txts are savable, yea?

lessons learned.

[BananaKT]

Well done, ranwayslo.

The world is filled with predatory people. The trick is to avoid them and to save the best of yourself for those who will appreciate their good fortune.

Very proud of you.

[magdalena]

Ranwayslo.
This is an interesting topic to me. I am very much attracted to men who are a "knight" type, and I love that the INTJ is able to help me sort through my feelings and thoughts and tear apart my logic.
However, with my current flame-he does not like to be helped at all. I have the ability to help him, although I can't do a lot about my own personal situation in life. He could though. Instead we're at an impasse, he won't accept help from me, and he wants me to suck it up and be strong and help myself. Which, I do try to do-I do like to do things for myself.
I always viewed a healthy relationship as one where two people took care of and helped each other. But I've always been attracted to men were were masculine (NOT macho)
and who had a caretaker's instinct.
Couldn't this need for the white knight be balanced if she's taking good care of you and looking out for you? I struggle with whether or not this is an unhealthy need or normal give that I am pretty old fashioned and traditional. And I like the traditional old fashioned gender roles.

[Bluesea]

Well it sounds like you've found a good test ... if you ask for equality and adulthood and they act out like a child and start performing emotional blackmail or dramas ... it is a good sign they are the type you want to steer clear of. That this happened so early into knowing the person is a good sign ... no longer do you have to experience this sort of personality for a long time before cutting loose. Congratulations.

[Amphorian]

All I have to really say is 'WTF' at that woman. o_o Man some people really can be batshit crazy. I'd have probably blew my top too (considering my anger is like a ticking time bomb).

Good plan of action. Lay low, then start readjusting your life. Perhaps new areas of interest should be included with social functioning (clubs, classes, volunteer work, etc.)

[schwartzie]

hm... I sympathize with you not wanting to be manipulated or used. Everyone has their limit of what is reasonable to ask for and give, and the boundary may vary from person to person and relationship to relationship.

For most of my life, I've been the more competent person about "doing stuff" in my relationships, a conventionally capable intj. In one relationship tho, with someone more competent, farsighted and generous than me, the man was the person doing things for me; he could see even subtle things that needed doing, and simply did them, or, when he thought best, asked if I wanted help with the thing. It surprised me to discover how profoundly attractive that was, that he had the ability to anticipate my needs, and the willingness to put himself in harms way to solve my real-world problems. I greatly enjoyed a partner that could stand shoulder to shoulder.

The point of which is--don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. You maybe do the kind of work you do because you are good at, and like, solving problems.

There is a test, the "languages of love" thing, that asks you to consider how you value things that might be considered loving. For some people, e.g. the giving of gifts is attractive; for others, giving your time/receiving the other person's time is most valued, and so on. You might want to check yourself. I think this one version.

To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

[ranwayslo]

Originally Posted by magdalena To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Ranwayslo. This is an interesting topic to me. I am very much attracted to men who are a "knight" type, and I love that the INTJ is able to help me sort through my feelings and thoughts and tear apart my logic. However, with my current flame-he does not like to be helped at all. I have the ability to help him, although I can't do a lot about my own personal situation in life. He could though. Instead we're at an impasse, he won't accept help from me, and he wants me to suck it up and be strong and help myself. Which, I do try to do-I do like to do things for myself. I always viewed a healthy relationship as one where two people took care of and helped each other. But I've always been attracted to men were were masculine (NOT macho) and who had a caretaker's instinct. Couldn't this need for the white knight be balanced if she's taking good care of you and looking out for you? I struggle with whether or not this is an unhealthy need or normal give that I am pretty old fashioned and traditional. And I like the traditional old fashioned gender roles.

Magdalena:

I have been considering how best to reply since you posted this, I keep strange hours for my time zone and was awake when you posted this, and even now I remain a bit conflicted. The type of woman (also applies to men, I am not one to base behaviors on gender) that spawned this and the original white knight thread is one who would never for a second consider how to help her partner or mate, but would constantly drain on him. I went through quite a long period of this before it began to have enough of an impact on me that I realized I was only making matters worse for both of us. Considering what you have written you are not this kind of woman.

I find it curious that your flame doesn't like to be helped. I might be mistaken but I am understanding by implication that your SO is INTJ. If this is not correct it will change a little about my impression.

My thoughts on why people reject help:

1. They do not recognize the need.
2. Insecurity, they pretend it is not an issue (think of an ostrich burying its head in the sand)
3. Complacency
4. Fear of change
5. In the case of a boyfriend it may be chauvinism
6. They actually don't need the help
7. They understand that the struggle (including failures) is sometimes more important than the goal
8. Insecurity (fear becoming dependent on someone who may eventually leave them)

There are of course many more reasons. Probably as many reasons as there are people, but the important information is not so much the reason as the root cause or causes hidden behind the reasons.

I feel like I am rambling so the main thing that I want to convey to you Magdalena is that as I originally defined a White Knight I see you more in that light than in the role of a "damsel in distress".

Lastly I would like to add this little gem of wisdom that I gleaned from so many wonderful people on this forum. In a relationship your role is not to fix your partner. Your role is to love and care for your partner as they are. When you start thinking in terms of fixing someone you bring dominance and submission into the equation. In terms of healthy relationships this is a clear sign of trouble. Find a way to accept your partner for his problems and allow him to love you in spite of yours. If either of you are unable to do this then you will see a divide grow between you and eventually the distance will be to great to overcome. In shifting my paradigm from being that of the "fixer", who everyone goes to with their problems to being just a friend I have seen an impressive level of closeness develop between myself and my friends. It is a humbling thing to learn that people may like you for you and not for your ability to save them.