Would you feel guilty if you killed in self-defense?

**Alex** · 08-21-2009, 01:16 PM

A thread elsewhere made me wonder how some of you guys here would answer. Say someone crossed "the line" in the commission of a crime - everyone has a different line; for some, it's threatening their lives, or their kids' lives, and for others, it's stealing something very valuable or important - and you felt you had the ability and the right to defend yourself using lethal force. You do so, and the assailant dies as a result. Would you feel guilty?

I've heard of some people feeling eaten up after stopping store robberies and accidentally killing the victims when only meaning to use injurious force. In my opinion, if they were using guns, they were using the wrong weapon if they intended to point and shoot but not to kill. A gun is a deadly weapon; you have to anticipate that someone could die if you shoot them.

Personally, if I felt I was justified in shooting you during a crime, I seriously doubt I'd feel a hint of remorse. I've never HAD to do this, thankfully, but once my threshold was crossed, I couldn't imagine feeling anything but gratitude that such a piece of shit would never be able to repeat his actions beyond that day.

**Ham** · 08-21-2009, 01:19 PM

Well I'd like to think that I wouldn't feel guilty, but not having been put in that position before I can't really say. I've found people almost never act the way they would have liked to under stress.

**BlizzarD** · 08-21-2009, 01:21 PM

i dont think i would feel guilty.. if i have power that means i must use it, thats all i even think about working in police or something, i do not afraid to press trigger to save someone, yet i can do it just for defending, i cant imagine attacking innocent people..

**wittykitty** · 08-21-2009, 01:44 PM

I can't honestly say I would feel guilty. It would be easy to rationalize it in my mind as a simple: it was me or him. I did what needed to be done in order to survive.

**curiousgeorge01** · 08-21-2009, 01:52 PM

I don't think I'd feel guilty AT THAT MOMENT. Maybe a week later I might be like "holy crap, I just took a life." Not sure if they necessrily translates into feeling guilty.

**Yuan** · 08-21-2009, 01:55 PM

Alex I agree with you. However, my cousin, who is impossibly nice, hates the idea of killing anyone. She says there is no way to know what would happen for sure to a person, if you don't kill him. That is, would he do something bad again? would he turn good? would he affect the world in a positive way, even if he is still bad? ... And, well, she has a good point. Anyone can do good, no matter how bad they are. Even if they are serial killers, they can have positive effects on those who they don't kill (like their neighbors? ).

It's just something to consider; her ideas weaken my resolve.

**themuzicman** · 08-21-2009, 01:57 PM

No one has any idea until they do it.

**Luckeydavid** · 08-21-2009, 01:58 PM

	Originally Posted by wittykitty To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I can't honestly say I would feel guilty. It would be easy to rationalize it in my mind as a simple: it was me or him. I did what needed to be done in order to survive.

I completely agree. I'd find myself purposely blocking out any feelings toward the situation and acting as coldly as possible in any regard to it. This mindset is a necessity for me to not be overwhelmed with guilt.

	Originally Posted by themuzicman To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	No one has any idea until they do it.

I completely disagree. I know I would be compelled by extreme guilt, and the only way I'd survive would be to essentially to turn off any feelings.

But then again, it's all hypothetical. I could very well eat my words... or a shotgun.

**Nemesis** · 08-21-2009, 02:00 PM

I wouldn't feel guilty about protecting myself, but I would feel guilty about taking the life of someone somebody out there deeply cares about. Of course, as Ham pointed out, who knows how I would react under duress. People's morals tend to fly out the window in different situations.

**Fanowene** · 08-21-2009, 02:10 PM

I don't know for sure if I'd feel guilty, but I think I would. Why would my life be worth more than his/hers? I don't know how I'd rationalize in a situation where several lives are at stake because of a certain individual's existence... I don't think I have the right to kill another person even if / just because I think it's the right thing to do.

**Luciferi** · 08-21-2009, 03:11 PM

I wouldn't feel the least bit guilty, nor would I hesitate to pull the trigger. In a self-defense situation, where it's you or them, you have to be willing to put yourself first. Or your family or home or whatever. They are in the wrong, you are in the right.

Okay, so maybe you take someone's life. But the way I see it is 1) anyone who goes around threatening other people to the point that the victim even has to resort to "me or you" thinking is a waste of oxygen and it's a favour to everyone else in the world to get rid of them and 2) maybe they have a mother who claims to love them or something, but she if she loved them so much, why didn't she do a better job raising them?

That said, even if the law is on your side, killing someone in self-defense will guarantee you years of legal misery, both in criminal and civil courts, and will cost you thousands. If I hesitated to pull the trigger, it would be because I wanted to avoid that headache, not because I would be worried about feeling guilty.

**BananaKT** · 08-21-2009, 03:13 PM

I don't know if I would feel guilt but I would certainly mourn the loss of my innocence.

**KalaKesar** · 08-21-2009, 03:16 PM

I capture and carry spiders outside to release them. I don't like killing, but I certainly would if my hand were forced to protect myself or someone else. It would be regrettable but not qualified for guilt, the difference being that guilt indicates the action was wrong and should not have occurred and is certainly not to be repeated. Regret, on the other hand, being more a wish that the outcome might have had a more positive ending.

Perhaps I'm splitting hairs.

**Jack Raiden** · 08-21-2009, 03:23 PM

I wouldn't really know until I've done it.

Right now I don't think it would bother me. If it came to pulling the trigger then I probably had a good reason and I wouldn't second guess myself. It might hit me later but I wouldn't dwell on it.

**StreetScooby** · 08-21-2009, 03:38 PM


	I've found people almost never act the way they would have liked to under stress.

+1

StreetScooby added to this post, 2 minutes and 11 seconds later...


	Anyone can do good, no matter how bad they are.

Have to disagree with you on that one.
Doing good is really a prolonged effort.
It's not a "spot-market" thing.

**CycleBreaker** · 08-21-2009, 03:42 PM

I feel quite righteous when defending myself. No guilt whatsoever.

**eagleseven** · 08-21-2009, 04:37 PM

While I have never killed anyone, I have been in situations where inflicting bodily harm was necessary.

I had no problems inflicting the harm at the time (I had to be pulled off the guy), and remember it quite fondly, actually. Luckily, the guy didn't need to be hospitalized.

Righteous anger or sadist? You decide!
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(I know I'm not sadistic, because I do not like to see the helpless harmed)

eagleseven added to this post, 3 minutes and 43 seconds later...

	Originally Posted by Luciferi To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	That said, even if the law is on your side, killing someone in self-defense will guarantee you years of legal misery, both in criminal and civil courts, and will cost you thousands. If I hesitated to pull the trigger, it would be because I wanted to avoid that headache, not because I would be worried about feeling guilty.

Indeed. Which is why I prefer to give the mugger my wallet...cheaper in the long run.

**thiagofralves** · 08-21-2009, 04:58 PM

Thinking 'bout it now, rationally, I shouldn't feel guilty if I did it only as a last resort to protect my life. I think I could survive it, I've seen felt worse when I wasn't able to do anything to protect someone.

**Prunesquallor** · 08-21-2009, 05:06 PM

I woudn't feel guilty, just appalled and probably nauseous.

**Nemesis** · 08-21-2009, 05:33 PM

	Originally Posted by Luciferi To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	2) maybe they have a mother who claims to love them or something, but she if she loved them so much, why didn't she do a better job raising them?

While I agree with your first point, this one almost sounds like you are blaming the mother. I'm not trying to throw a strawman at you, but this seems to the the implication you are making. A murderer can have the best family in the world, and still murder. What if the killer is a parent?

**eagleseven** · 08-21-2009, 05:37 PM

	Originally Posted by Nemesis To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	While I agree with your first point, this one almost sounds like you are blaming the mother. I'm not trying to throw a strawman at you, but this seems to the the implication you are making. A murderer can have the best family in the world, and still murder. What if the killer is a parent?

Then the parent should reconsider risking his life through crime when he has a child at home...

...if he survives the gunwound, that is.

**Luciferi** · 08-21-2009, 06:05 PM

	Originally Posted by Nemesis To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	While I agree with your first point, this one almost sounds like you are blaming the mother. I'm not trying to throw a strawman at you, but this seems to the the implication you are making. A murderer can have the best family in the world, and still murder. What if the killer is a parent?

Do you think that is the exception or the rule? It seems to me that most criminals don't come from particularly loving families. The ones who do come from caring, supportive families and still go on to murder make headlines because it is so uncommon. It's not like there isn't a major cause and effect relationship between the breakdown of family structure and crime. Just look at any inner-city neighbourhood. So yes, the parents are often to blame for the way their children turn out. However, that's not to say the responsibility for one's actions isn't squarely on the shoulders of the criminal because it is.

Luciferi added to this post, 6 minutes and 37 seconds later...

	Originally Posted by eagleseven To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Indeed. Which is why I prefer to give the mugger my wallet...cheaper in the long run.

It really depends on the circumstances. If I was being mugged at gun or knife point, then the illusion that you might live through it goes out the window. Using a weapon to commit a crime adds a whole new level to things. You can't be assured that he will be satisfied at taking your wallet and let you live so you can file a police report. When a criminal pulls out a weapon, the rules of the game change. In that case, I would instantly pull out a gun and fire without even a single warning.

However, if the assailant was unarmed, depending whether or not he was close enough to grab me, I would still pull out the gun, but I would give him a warning: "Don't come any closer or I'll shoot!" At that point, you've given him fair warning and if he continues advancing, then when you make the 911 call, you can say "He forced me to shoot him, he gave me no choice." But you also give the guy a chance to run for his life. It's his decision whether he lives or dies.

**PLC** · 08-21-2009, 07:28 PM

I wouldn't feel any sort of guilt if the use of lethal force was justified at the moment in my eyes. In a situation where it's you or them, I'd rather take the chance of possibly feeling guilt afterward or having to go to court and everything... than being dead.

Anyway, if you ever get to the point where you have to use lethal force, I'm pretty damn sure that your brain shut down long ago and you're running 110% on a dirty mix of adrenalin and survival. There's no question going through you brain like "Am I gonna go to court? could I get jail time? Would I feel bad if I kill him?" In a kill or be killed situation, you kill or you die and your instinct knows it.

That being said, I wouldn't use lethal force if not necessary in a situation I know it could easily be brushed off as an accident or self-defense or then I would feel massive guilt.

**eagleseven** · 08-21-2009, 08:01 PM

Originally Posted by Luciferi
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It really depends on the circumstances. If I was being mugged at gun or knife point, then the illusion that you might live through it goes out the window. Using a weapon to commit a crime adds a whole new level to things. You can't be assured that he will be satisfied at taking your wallet and let you live so you can file a police report. When a criminal pulls out a weapon, the rules of the game change. In that case, I would instantly pull out a gun and fire without even a single warning.

A competent mugger knows not to display the weapon until it is already in striking distance; when the knife/gun is an inch from your stomach. At this range, pulling a gun is nearly impossible, and the motion will most likely cause the mugger to attack (with fatal results, at that range).

Your best chance of survival is to give the mugger what he wants, while cautiously moving out of range. When you move out of range, or if he is distracted (perhaps by your wallet), you draw and fire...unless he just takes your wallet and runs, as shooting a man in the back is almost always Manslaughter.

Drawing when the knife is at your belly, or the gun is at your head, is almost always fatal.

Originally Posted by Luciferi
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However, if the assailant was unarmed, depending whether or not he was close enough to grab me, I would still pull out the gun, but I would give him a warning: "Don't come any closer or I'll shoot!" At that point, you've given him fair warning and if he continues advancing, then when you make the 911 call, you can say "He forced me to shoot him, he gave me no choice." But you also give the guy a chance to run for his life. It's his decision whether he lives or dies.

As a rule of thumb, you cannot shoot to kill during strong-arm robberies unless you are being attacked by multiple muggers, or the mugger brandishes a weapon.

You'll have a very hard time explaining why you lethally shot an unarmed man in court.

Luckily for me, my build makes me a poor mark for strong-arm muggers.

P.S. It is far better to identify muggers before they approach...if they notice that you are aware of their intent, they'll back off. They're criminals, not soldiers, after all.

**Luciferi** · 08-22-2009, 12:49 AM

Originally Posted by eagleseven
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A competent mugger knows not to display the weapon until it is already in striking distance; when the knife/gun is an inch from your stomach. At this range, pulling a gun is nearly impossible, and the motion will most likely cause the mugger to attack (with fatal results, at that range).

Your best chance of survival is to give the mugger what he wants, while cautiously moving out of range. When you move out of range, or if he is distracted (perhaps by your wallet), you draw and fire...unless he just takes your wallet and runs, as shooting a man in the back is almost always Manslaughter.

Drawing when the knife is at your belly, or the gun is at your head, is almost always fatal.

Hence why I said what I did below about displaying the weapon with a verbal warning before the person is in range to harm me.

As a rule of thumb, you cannot shoot to kill during strong-arm robberies unless you are being attacked by multiple muggers, or the mugger brandishes a weapon.

You'll have a very hard time explaining why you lethally shot an unarmed man in court.

Luckily for me, my build makes me a poor mark for strong-arm muggers.

P.S. It is far better to identify muggers before they approach...if they notice that you are aware of their intent, they'll back off. They're criminals, not soldiers, after all.

Depends on where you live. My state is quite friendly to gun owners and to those who act in self-defense. Also, most juries tend to be sympathetic to the pretty young woman who cries self-defense and not so sympathetic to a big hulking criminal. Why did I shoot an unarmed man? I was scared and I knew I couldn't outrun him or out-wrestle him and he didn't back off when I warned him. In most cases, that is a good enough excuse in court.

And yes, it is better to avoid them all together or behave in a way that deters them. (Attackers tend to avoid women who walk confidently and appear to be paying attention to their surroundings, for example.) I'm not dumb. I do know the law.
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08-21-2009, 01:16 PM	#1
Alex Member [05%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 229	A thread elsewhere made me wonder how some of you guys here would answer. Say someone crossed "the line" in the commission of a crime - everyone has a different line; for some, it's threatening their lives, or their kids' lives, and for others, it's stealing something very valuable or important - and you felt you had the ability and the right to defend yourself using lethal force. You do so, and the assailant dies as a result. Would you feel guilty? I've heard of some people feeling eaten up after stopping store robberies and accidentally killing the victims when only meaning to use injurious force. In my opinion, if they were using guns, they were using the wrong weapon if they intended to point and shoot but not to kill. A gun is a deadly weapon; you have to anticipate that someone could die if you shoot them. Personally, if I felt I was justified in shooting you during a crime, I seriously doubt I'd feel a hint of remorse. I've never HAD to do this, thankfully, but once my threshold was crossed, I couldn't imagine feeling anything but gratitude that such a piece of shit would never be able to repeat his actions beyond that day.
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08-21-2009, 01:19 PM	#2
Ham Member [04%] MBTI: ENTJ Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 197	Well I'd like to think that I wouldn't feel guilty, but not having been put in that position before I can't really say. I've found people almost never act the way they would have liked to under stress.
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08-21-2009, 01:21 PM	#3
BlizzarD Member [02%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 89	i dont think i would feel guilty.. if i have power that means i must use it, thats all i even think about working in police or something, i do not afraid to press trigger to save someone, yet i can do it just for defending, i cant imagine attacking innocent people..
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08-21-2009, 01:44 PM	#4
wittykitty Member [23%] MBTI: XXXX Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 921	I can't honestly say I would feel guilty. It would be easy to rationalize it in my mind as a simple: it was me or him. I did what needed to be done in order to survive.
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08-21-2009, 01:52 PM	#5
curiousgeorge01 Core Member [117%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 4,690	I don't think I'd feel guilty AT THAT MOMENT. Maybe a week later I might be like "holy crap, I just took a life." Not sure if they necessrily translates into feeling guilty.
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08-21-2009, 01:55 PM	#6
Yuan New Member [01%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 25	Alex I agree with you. However, my cousin, who is impossibly nice, hates the idea of killing anyone. She says there is no way to know what would happen for sure to a person, if you don't kill him. That is, would he do something bad again? would he turn good? would he affect the world in a positive way, even if he is still bad? ... And, well, she has a good point. Anyone can do good, no matter how bad they are. Even if they are serial killers, they can have positive effects on those who they don't kill (like their neighbors? ). It's just something to consider; her ideas weaken my resolve.
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08-21-2009, 01:57 PM	#7
themuzicman Core Member [284%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 11,363	No one has any idea until they do it.
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08-21-2009, 02:00 PM	#9
Nemesis Core Member [304%] MBTI: XXXX Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 12,189	I wouldn't feel guilty about protecting myself, but I would feel guilty about taking the life of someone somebody out there deeply cares about. Of course, as Ham pointed out, who knows how I would react under duress. People's morals tend to fly out the window in different situations.
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08-21-2009, 02:10 PM	#10
Fanowene Member [33%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 1,354	I don't know for sure if I'd feel guilty, but I think I would. Why would my life be worth more than his/hers? I don't know how I'd rationalize in a situation where several lives are at stake because of a certain individual's existence... I don't think I have the right to kill another person even if / just because I think it's the right thing to do.
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08-21-2009, 03:11 PM	#11
Luciferi Member [17%] MBTI: IsTp Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 683	I wouldn't feel the least bit guilty, nor would I hesitate to pull the trigger. In a self-defense situation, where it's you or them, you have to be willing to put yourself first. Or your family or home or whatever. They are in the wrong, you are in the right. Okay, so maybe you take someone's life. But the way I see it is 1) anyone who goes around threatening other people to the point that the victim even has to resort to "me or you" thinking is a waste of oxygen and it's a favour to everyone else in the world to get rid of them and 2) maybe they have a mother who claims to love them or something, but she if she loved them so much, why didn't she do a better job raising them? That said, even if the law is on your side, killing someone in self-defense will guarantee you years of legal misery, both in criminal and civil courts, and will cost you thousands. If I hesitated to pull the trigger, it would be because I wanted to avoid that headache, not because I would be worried about feeling guilty.
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08-21-2009, 03:13 PM	#12
BananaKT Member [07%] MBTI: intj Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 316	I don't know if I would feel guilt but I would certainly mourn the loss of my innocence.
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08-21-2009, 03:16 PM	#13
KalaKesar Member [02%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 113	I capture and carry spiders outside to release them. I don't like killing, but I certainly would if my hand were forced to protect myself or someone else. It would be regrettable but not qualified for guilt, the difference being that guilt indicates the action was wrong and should not have occurred and is certainly not to be repeated. Regret, on the other hand, being more a wish that the outcome might have had a more positive ending. Perhaps I'm splitting hairs.
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08-21-2009, 03:23 PM	#14
Jack Raiden Member [04%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 184	I wouldn't really know until I've done it. Right now I don't think it would bother me. If it came to pulling the trigger then I probably had a good reason and I wouldn't second guess myself. It might hit me later but I wouldn't dwell on it.
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08-21-2009, 03:42 PM	#16
CycleBreaker Member [08%] MBTI: inxj Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 337	I feel quite righteous when defending myself. No guilt whatsoever.
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08-21-2009, 04:58 PM	#18
thiagofralves Member [10%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 434	Thinking 'bout it now, rationally, I shouldn't feel guilty if I did it only as a last resort to protect my life. I think I could survive it, I've seen felt worse when I wasn't able to do anything to protect someone.
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08-21-2009, 05:06 PM	#19
Prunesquallor Veteran Member [66%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 2,647	I woudn't feel guilty, just appalled and probably nauseous.
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08-21-2009, 07:28 PM	#23
PLC Member [02%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 111	I wouldn't feel any sort of guilt if the use of lethal force was justified at the moment in my eyes. In a situation where it's you or them, I'd rather take the chance of possibly feeling guilt afterward or having to go to court and everything... than being dead. Anyway, if you ever get to the point where you have to use lethal force, I'm pretty damn sure that your brain shut down long ago and you're running 110% on a dirty mix of adrenalin and survival. There's no question going through you brain like "Am I gonna go to court? could I get jail time? Would I feel bad if I kill him?" In a kill or be killed situation, you kill or you die and your instinct knows it. That being said, I wouldn't use lethal force if not necessary in a situation I know it could easily be brushed off as an accident or self-defense or then I would feel massive guilt.
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