[DrGuitar]

	Originally Posted by StreetScooby To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	1. I understand the history, but in all honesty, I cannot see how forgiveness applies here. 2. Have they acknowledged what they did? 3. If I had done that, my father would have beat me senseless, and kicked me out of the house.

1. Unfortunately, you took my "forgiveness" quote out of context. I was trying to make the point that a person who has no knowledge of anything but abuse, may not have a true understanding that they were abused and in turn will not even consider that they need to forgive their abusers to move on.

2. No, they were unable to take responsibility for their earlier actions. As I said, one of my uncles who beat me as a child did make a statement recognizing that I had turned out well considering my childhood. I believe he was speaking more about the mental and emotional abuse rather than the physical abuse.

3. By the time I was 15, my father had stopped beating me 5 years earlier. I believe he really did not believe in corporal punishment and beat me when I was younger just because he saw my mother and her siblings do it. He also recognized that my mother had her own mental issues and was releasing her own anger on me as a release for herself. But if it makes you feel any better, I was thrown out on the street quite a few times in my middle teens. Each time I had done nothing wrong, but my mother had screwed up somehow and blamed me to pass the heat. I refused to blame my mother, so I took the heat. A couple of times, I confronted my mother later and told her that I knew what happened (that she had lied to protect herself) and the incident was never spoken of again. My parents were divorced within a few years.

Finally, I believe you. I am not trying to make it seem like my life was worse than yours and "I forgave, why can't you?". You know your own history. I know many folks in the world had it much worse than me. This post is not really about how bad you had it, but is really about "what do you do now" and "how do you accomplish it".

I can only tell you what I did. If you are comfortable and content with how you feel right now, then there is nothing you need to do. And even if you are not content, but are still not ready to move from that spot, then you do not need to do anything.

But this topic started with you asking the questions,

	Originally Posted by StreetScooby To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	]People have always been a mystery to me. Anyone else here have similar experience? I'm a trooper, I move on, but that part of my life is still something I block out. I need to move past it, but I'm not sure how. Comments?

So I answered the best I could. I spent many years full of anger about my lost childhood. And it took those years for me to realize that time spent angry hurts no one but me. So I sought help in a good therapist and worked through the anger and found that I had the capacity to forgive and move on. As I have said, I still carry scars, some of them pretty deep. But I am healthier and happier not carrying around all that anger. And I did not need to rub my anger in the face of my attackers for me to move on. The fact is that before my mother and father died, I was on very good terms with them. And they showed me respect as a man. Sure, they could still be assholes sometimes, but who isn't?

[Aeroscoper]

A very emotionally charged topic that hits to the very core of many people here so I'll attempt to tread lightly...

I had what would be considered by most, an "abusive" upbringing. I, as well as my sisters, had suffered much, and none of us had childhoods for the most part. Upbringings not as severe as some of the moving stories presented in this thread, but I definitely have some insight into the topic no doubt.

A few things mentioned earlier I'd like to confirm and emphasize if I may. The power of forgiveness, and human resilience.

I've gone from resenting and despising the abuser, to understanding, to forgiving, to now actually appreciating them. If anyone's interested on how I went about this journey, please pm me, it's a bit too raw for me to disclose openly, and not sure I'd be very patient with typical INTJ counterpoints to what I"d experienced, no offense.

Bottom line is that depth of character is forged through obstacles and challenges, and I wouldn't be the man I am today if I hadn't gone through such times. I wouldn't be the man my wife fell in love with.

From what I've read it seems very evident that those that went through such childhoods have that depth I mention, and I applaud how you guys have handled things thus far.

Forgiveness is all about you, not them. I truly believe without forgiveness, you're allowing those abusers to still have some control and power over you, even if by minuscule amounts.

[realJim]

Sorry you had to take beatings. No one should have to suffer like that.

Without religion there will be good people doing good things and bad people doing bad things. It takes religion to get good people to do bad things.

Growing up I sometimes got the belt, but usually it was the hairbrush. Blisters and cuts were not uncommon. One sweet day of revenge, my brother and I had to go up and get the brush, and stuffed comic books in our pants before we brought the torture device. We laughed at her while she hit us, and our mom hurt her wrist in an attempt to beat us into submission. She doesn't know about that to this day.

I've forgiven my mom and sleep well at night. I'm 2500 miles away though, so I guess there's a bit of passive agressiveness in that.

[rickster]

	Originally Posted by daydreamer To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	extreme cases - many holocaust survivors will never heal, regardless of their capacity to forgive. some veterans suffering from ptsd can forgive but still mourn for their losses and for those of others they witnessed.

It's never about those who can't - it's about those who can, and do. Holocaust survivor Eva Kor is the best-known example:

"I believe with every fiber of my being that every person has the human right to live with or without the pain of the past, and that it is a personal choice. My question is, "How many people would choose to live with pain, when they could heal from it?"

I do believe that this healing is possible through the act of FORGIVENESS. and I believe in FORGIVENESS as the ultimate act of self healing, and self-empowerment. once a person decides to forgive, there is a tromendous feeling of wholeness in thought, spirit and action all moving in the same direction creating a powerful force for healing and freedom.

My forgiving the Nazis is a gift of freedom I gave myself, a gift of peace for myself, it is also a gift of peace for everybody who wants it. Both peace and war begin in the heart and mind of one person. Pain and anger are the SEEDS for WAR. FORGIVENESS is the SEED for PEACE"


Additionally, the emergence of evidence that forgiveness actually can and does heal is being currently studied as a sociological advancement.

Our unwillingness to forgive is invariably reinforced by the vanity of the "my pain is bigger than yours" mentality. When victims assemble, a Pissing Contest of Pain is bound to be the main event. Each wants to come up with the supreme tale of suffering that supports unforgiveness, and more often than not it's their own story.

I abhor the cruelty of the human condition in all the forms it takes, but please have a good look at Eva Kor and her experiences before you decide "unforgivable" things were done to you. If you haven't practiced forgiveness you have no business advocating whether or not it's effective.

[daydreamer]

	Originally Posted by rickster To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	If you haven't practiced forgiveness you have no business advocating whether or not it's effective.

i like what you're saying, and find it helpful. i'm just not sure that there is only one path for everyone.

[rickster]

	Originally Posted by daydreamer To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	i like what you're saying, and find it helpful. i'm just not sure that there is only one path for everyone.

oops that comment was the general "you", and not directed personally.
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Each person's experience of forgiveness will be unique and different, but that experience is related to cause-and-effect from making the decision to forgive, not any special path taken.

When we are confronted with the principle of complete non-judgmental forgiveness - and make no mistake it is confrontational - the best justification for choosing to forgive is to look unflinchingly at your own unhealed situation and say "What have I got to lose?" if you can't see a clear happy picture of what you actually have to gain.

[deinotes]

	Originally Posted by rickster To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	When we are confronted with the principle of complete non-judgmental forgiveness - and make no mistake it is confrontational - the best justification for choosing to forgive is to look unflinchingly at your own unhealed situation and say "What have I got to lose?" if you can't see a clear happy picture of what you actually have to gain.

Also the gain and lose is relative.
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For me it was not so much what to gain but what i wanted to lose.
I felt a great weight lifted from my shoulders when i reached the point that i forgave.

[Smacknrat]

INTJ (typically) are created by them learning that personal relationships aren't "worth it" and finding a beautiful escape with the subconscious and internal.

You know, "normal psychosocial" development involves you loving your mother (the real one) and securing her love from your father... Looks like that's what you needed.

A scapegoat is a sacrificial animal in which all our misunderstandings and hurt is thrust upon. Their home is everywhere and they learn to convert the hurt of others, since it's a lesson others have gone thier entire lives without learning.

[karenann33]

	make sense. confirms my suspicion that forgiveness is not always necessary. depends on the person and the situation. i needed to forgive, so that i could maintain a relationship

See in my case I cut ties so there was no relationship. Had I maintained contact it would have been absolutely necessary to forgive otherwise I would have remained bitter. In fact before I cut ties I was angry and full of rage a lot and now I realize it was aimed at them for abusing me.

I have peace now. I actually walked right past my mom at the store a few weeks ago (she didn't recognize me) and it didn't give me an anxiety attack. Normally when that would happen I'd practically run from the scene. This time I continued on with my shopping and if she cornered me so what I had no feelings for her anymore. She is in fact nothing more than a stranger to me now.





karenann33 added to this post, 4 minutes and 10 seconds later...

I've gone from resenting and despising the abuser, to understanding, to forgiving, to now actually appreciating them. Bottom line is that depth of character is forged through obstacles and challenges, and I wouldn't be the man I am today if I hadn't gone through such times. I wouldn't be the man my wife fell in love with. From what I've read it seems very evident that those that went through such childhoods have that depth I mention, and I applaud how you guys have handled things thus far. Forgiveness is all about you, not them. I truly believe without forgiveness, you're allowing those abusers to still have some control and power over you, even if by minuscule amounts.

You nailed exactly how I feel. Although I won't go so far as to say I appreciate them. LOL!! The experience has made me who I am today and I can appreciate that so I'm sure that is what you meant. It's made me a better wife, mother and friend. I have that depth that you speak of. I have a heart for others that many people don't. I can't always express it but it's there.

[curiousgeorge01]

Well regarding the above, I think I get to the 'understanding' part but never the forgiving. How do you define forgive? I can forget, but I still don't want anything to do with the person. And I agree with karenann33, I doubt I'll ever appreciate it though I think it can make me a better person. I still that that person who hurt me is a Certifiably Grade A-hole.

[RoughNTumble]

In response to the Opening Quesiton of this post. I had a horible childhood, and to this day i hate my parents for what they did to me. I can not forgive them, because i can't forgive myself for allowing it to happen to me.

[schwartzie]

It was helpful for me to work in college in a battered women's shelter... and meet a pair of women--mother and daughter-in-law--who were married to multiple generations of abusive men. They were just farm women from my little hometown who fled to the city. Meeting them, and talking about out lives (I'd known them when I lived in that rural community) helped me appreciate that there is a component to most abusers that is created when they are not responsible for their actions... when they too were kids damaged by their own violent parents or other adults ....

Recognizing that abusive parents can be made, not born, doesn't excuse the abuser for their conduct... rather, it recognizes that they may have experienced the same thing once upon a time that the current victim is experiencing-- the struggle to get beyond a damaged psyche and beyond perpetuating the cycle -- and that the abuser failed to heal enough to be able to stop themselves from becoming abusers in turn. It raises the stakes. If you want to have healthy kids, deal with your damage.

I agree w rickster. The only time I've seen people get past a festering damn cycle of hate and harm is to see the abuser as a person (separate from your relationship with them), and find a way to let them and their pit of crap out of your life--to "forgive" them for being who they are and what they've done. And... it's really hard to do this. Poison flows out of you when you may not expect it, and during times of stress. It is helpful to have a professional around that you can talk to in that process.

Having said all this, having a BPD parent is different and harder from most other situations. You do need to have them out of your life. In recent years therapies have been developed for BPD; I suspect that there has also been research helpful for children of people with BPD. StreetScooby, I hope we can be helpful for you...

[StreetScooby]

	Originally Posted by deinotes To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Also something i am curious about why did you father do nothing against the violence ? Was he unaware of it or did he turn a blind eye ?

He looked the other way. Everyone on both my mother's side of the family, and my father's side of the family knew what was going on. As I was "confronting" my mother about this, he was denying all knowledge of what was going on. But, I could see in him that he knew he was lying.





StreetScooby added to this post, 6 minutes and 22 seconds later...

	Originally Posted by larkin To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I hate to say this but until you've lived with someone (and yeah, particularly a mother) with BPD I am not sure you will understand why forgiveness may not be on the table.

I am struggling with that word "forgiveness" here... And, I think you're correct. Last year, my sister gave me a book called "The BPD Mother". Bottom line, the book said you have to eliminate her from your life. I realized that 20 years ago.

Originally Posted by larkin To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

As Scooby has said, and I believe it was probably pointed out to him constantly, he understands where his mother came from. *Everything in the life of a child with a mother with BPD is framed through her experience.* You spend a lifetime trying to understand her better, thinking you can better fit yourself to what's required, in his case, in the hopes that he literally won't get beaten. But it doesn't work. So maybe forgiveness can happen, some day. [b]But when someone is first trying to wrap their head around all that came before, it's far too soon.[/b[ There needs to be some time where you process your own experience, finally, before once again you're asked to prioritize hers.

I'll be 49 years old next month. My head is pretty wrapped around the situation, and has been for a while now. I just feel there's something more I can do to move forward in my life regarding this situation. That's why I posted this thread.





StreetScooby added to this post, 8 minutes and 29 seconds later...

	Originally Posted by Downrange To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Karma works in strange ways. It's been said that we are born into (some say we choose this) exactly the situation that is most favorable for our inner development. Maybe the forgiveness part comes with understanding - understanding the vicious cycle of child abuse - got to break the chain somehow.

Yes, I understand karma. I believe that somehow my karma has put me into this life. Kind of scary, to be honest with you. I have broken the cycle, BTW.





StreetScooby added to this post, 10 minutes and 55 seconds later...

	Originally Posted by DrGuitar To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	like "this is the reason I am beaten and it makes sense".

You actually knew why you were being beaten?





StreetScooby added to this post, 15 minutes and 35 seconds later...

	Originally Posted by rickster To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Look I hate to sound like a broken record, but exactly how long do you all plan to keep holding onto your victimhood? How long are you going to wallow in your pain? Are you enjoying it yet?

How am I doing this, in your perception?

[DrGuitar]

	Originally Posted by StreetScooby To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I'll be 49 years old next month. My head is pretty wrapped around the situation, and has been for a while now. I just feel there's something more I can do to move forward in my life regarding this situation. That's why I posted this thread.

As to the statement about "I just feel there's something more I can do to move forward...", I say that as long as you are already moving toward a healthier goal, you are doing the best you can. Don't expect "forgiveness" to happen all at once. There is no perfect right way to get through all the pain you have and continue to endure.

My only real caveats to moving toward forgiveness is that you should not put restrictions on that forgiveness. In other words, do your best to forgive for your sake and do not hold back from forgiveness because of some external reason (like parent does not acknowledge, or sister will not speak of it or whatever). The baggage you carry needs to be dropped and you need to walk away. It may be that the baggage will sit there forever, but you do not need to return and pick it back up. Do your best to let it go and all the hurt that it represents (like lost childhood, lost family love...etc.).

You will always have the scars, but you do not need to stare at them. And when you let go, be especially good to yourself. It may feel strange and uncomfortable. Honor your adulthood and the child that still resides inside. Learn to show yourself real respect; it certainly sounds like you have earned it.

	Originally Posted by StreetScooby To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	You actually knew why you were being beaten?

Sure. It was usually being screamed at me while I was beaten. Of course, the reason(s) were not always correct, nor were they always true. And I don't think I can ever think of a time that beating me was the correct punishment for any mistake I might have made, even from the mindset of a parent into corporal punishment. Keep in mind that some of the worst damage done by these beatings was the constant berating and intimidation. If you are called stupid, lazy, worthless...etc long enough, it becomes how you see yourself. Those are the scars that never heal.

[StreetScooby]

This thread is helping me, just by letting me share this aspect of my life that I've learned to never talk about in social situations. All of the replies have been thought provoking, something I was hoping would happen. Thanks all for putting your thoughts here. It is much appreciated.

I am not saying I won't forgive. Couldn't be further from what I'm about. I have forgiven in life, and still do so. I think it's a vital part of life, people, and relationships.

I have been seeing a therapist for the last 6 months, working through issues that seem to crop up in my life from time to time. This person is probably my 6th or so. I have discussed this topic with the therapist. I always do.

I have been thinking about forgiveness alot the last few days. But, I am struggling to see how that word applies to my mother. Maybe that's what I need to work on, by writing it down.

[DrGuitar]

SS, what you are doing now shows great courage. Many folks will never deal with these feelings and memories because they are so extreme. You seem to be tackling it head on. I salute you my friend.

[StreetScooby]

	Originally Posted by DrGuitar To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	"I forgave, ..." The fact is that before my mother and father died, I was on very good terms with them. And they showed me respect as a man.

What did you forgive?
And how?

My father does show me respect as a man.
My mother is simply not capable of doing that.





StreetScooby added to this post, 5 minutes and 30 seconds later...

	Originally Posted by rickster To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	FORGIVENESS...

I'm loathe to ask this question, because discussions that devolve into arguments over semantics become worthless. But, I am interested to hear how you would define that word. And, how do you implement it?





StreetScooby added to this post, 11 minutes and 40 seconds later...

	Originally Posted by rickster To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	When we are confronted with the principle of complete non-judgmental forgiveness - and make no mistake it is confrontational - the best justification for choosing to forgive is to look unflinchingly at your own unhealed situation and say "What have I got to lose?" if you can't see a clear happy picture of what you actually have to gain.

You sound like you've thought about this, and experienced it, also. For the lack of a better phrase, are these your "original thoughts", or is there some "discipline" that you follow in life.





StreetScooby added to this post, 17 minutes and 42 seconds later...

	Originally Posted by karenann33 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I have peace now. I actually walked right past my mom at the store a few weeks ago (she didn't recognize me) and it didn't give me an anxiety attack. Normally when that would happen I'd practically run from the scene. This time I continued on with my shopping and if she cornered me so what I had no feelings for her anymore.

My mother would impose herself, and end up making a scene. I really wouldn't put it past her to actually physically strike me if given the opportunity.

	Originally Posted by karenann33 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	She is in fact nothing more than a stranger to me now.

+1





StreetScooby added to this post, 19 minutes and 56 seconds later...

	Originally Posted by RoughNTumble To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I can not forgive them, because i can't forgive myself for allowing it to happen to me.

I think that's part of "our" confusion here with that word forgiveness. There are people on this thread saying to "forgive yourself". You and I weren't in charge, and we did nothing wrong. Why forgive myself? What did I do?





StreetScooby added to this post, 33 minutes and 27 seconds later...

Originally Posted by schwartzie To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Recognizing that abusive parents can be made, not born, doesn't excuse the abuser for their conduct... rather, it recognizes that they may have experienced the same thing once upon a time that the current victim is experiencing-- the struggle to get beyond a damaged psyche and beyond perpetuating the cycle -- and that the abuser failed to heal enough to be able to stop themselves from becoming abusers in turn. It raises the stakes.

My mother came from a large family. They were raised by parents that had 3-6 years of education, and were hard core Church of Christ. Not all of my aunts beat their kids, but the older aunts did.

	Originally Posted by schwartzie To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	If you want to have healthy kids, deal with your damage.

I have broken this cycle in my lineage.

Originally Posted by schwartzie To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I agree w rickster. The only time I've seen people get past a festering damn cycle of hate and harm is to see the abuser as a person (separate from your relationship with them), and find a way to let them and their pit of crap out of your life--to "forgive" them for being who they are and what they've done. And... it's really hard to do this. Poison flows out of you when you may not expect it, and during times of stress. It is helpful to have a professional around that you can talk to in that process.

I do see my parents as the people they are. I simply want nothing to do with them. My parents have had multiple opportunities over the last 20 years to show me respect in their dealings with me. They fail miserably, especially my mother. I am my mother's property. End of story. And the fact that I don't respect her expectation there "hurts" her. She's already told my wife that I'm out of the will, multiple times now. I could not care less.

But, with that comes a certain "arrogance" (really bad word, but closest I can come up with) that can permeate my life in certain situations. And sometimes those situations have worked out for me, and sometimes they haven't. I think this is one of the things I'm looking to move past in my life. People count. But, I don't have the "reservoirs of energy" required to be patient all of the time. Plus, I'm deaf in one ear, and I find it really hard to be involved in group discussions. Those last few sentences are pretty jumbled, but they give me something to think about.

	Originally Posted by schwartzie To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Having said all this, having a BPD parent is different and harder from most other situations. You do need to have them out of your life. In recent years therapies have been developed for BPD; I suspect that there has also been research helpful for children of people with BPD. StreetScooby, I hope we can be helpful for you...

By participating in this thread, you have been. Thanks.

[DrGuitar]

	What did you forgive? And how? My father does show me respect as a man. My mother is simply not capable of doing that.

I forgave my parents for the countless daily, (sometimes hourly) beatings I survived through out my childhood and youth. I forgave their insidious berating and mental torture. I forgave their pulling me into arguments at 3:30 in the morning (a regular occurrence) and then beating me when I would not take sides. I rather not go into more specifics because although I have lived through these memories many times, I do not wish to dwell on them right now. But I think you get the point.

How did I forgive? I make a decision that carrying around anger toward parents that would never admit to their abusive behavior was not helping me or my adult relationship with them. I did have conversations with both of them as an adult (in my 20s) letting them know that if they wanted a relationship with me, I had certain boundaries. And they learned those boundaries and followed them (that is where the respect came in). So I forgave them. I was no longer that child with belt wounds. I was no longer called demeaning names by them. I was no longer being blamed for their mistakes. I no longer needed to carry the anger that went with those earlier acts.

As a result, my father and I spoke every week and as typical father and sons do, we would speak of cures for mankind and tell jokes. My mother and I would go to brunch nearly every Sunday and I was able to help her when she needed it.

Would it have been nice to have them confess their sins and give me closure? I guess. But I forgave them for me, not so they could get it off their chest. I did not need a confession or even an apology. They both died relatively young and I felt like they loved me before they died. Mostly because I was able to let go of my anger and forgive them. So you see, I forgave them because it was the right thing to do for me. It was a selfish act that benefited everyone.

I have no doubt that your father has respect for you. I'm sorry about your mother. My mother had a difficult time showing me respect also. Mostly, I saw respect come from her in the form of what she did not do. But that was the best I was going to get from her and that was fine with me. True forgiveness should not come with too many caveats.

[lostandfound]

I suffered mental and physical abuse as a child. My teens and twenties were full of anger and rage. During my thirties I struggled with acceptance. Now in my 40s I don't focus on it anymore. I'm the product of all my experiences and refuse to let the past impact me in a negative ways as it's a waste of energy. As I move forward I believe I have an advantage that I can more fully appreciate those in my life based on my previous experiences. I'm a deeper and fuller person due to stepping through my challenges. Although I'm not perfect, I still try to move forward on my own path.

[rickster]

	Originally Posted by StreetScooby To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I'm loathe to ask this question, because discussions that devolve into arguments over semantics become worthless. But, I am interested to hear how you would define that word. And, how do you implement it?

No, it's best to define meanings. My meaning of forgiveness is the standard dictionary meaning...essentally a full pardon for all wrongdoings, without excessively focusing on the actual wrong acts.

How we implement forgiveness I'd say changes drastically from person to person. My personal process involves understanding that no "hurt" caused by others can be allowed to rob me of the happiness which is my birthright. I carefully examine both the acts and the perpetrator, and invariably I come to believe that they have less power over me than I previously thought. I come to feel a sense of compassion for the wrongdoer because I'm aware that I'll never know their full story i.e. what made them the way they are. More often than not, I'm able to see an abusers own nightmare of pain and suffering, and that alone is often enough to turn my old hatreds and fears into my own kindness and mercy. It's important for me to not fear what in essence may be actually trivial.

But there are many approaches to implementation of forgiveness, and notably an overwhelming number of candidates (within a 90+% want-to-forgive majority) report not knowing how to implement forgiveness.

	You sound like you've thought about this, and experienced it, also. For the lack of a better phrase, are these your "original thoughts", or is there some "discipline" that you follow in life.

I most certainly have thought about it, and I certainly wouldn't advocate any psychotherapeutic process without either having experienced its value, or be able to cite evidence of effectiveness.

My knowledge of forgiveness certainly isn't my original thoughts. Until the early 80s the concept of forgiveness was pretty much a staple of most religions, with varying degrees and interpretations of the place of deity within the process, and differing requirements of "repentance."

Secular psychotherapy however tends to treat the process of forgiveness as a stand-alone, with unforgiveness as the obstacle to happiness. Forgiveness is currently finding its own place across medicine, philosophy and psychology, with studies indicating about equal effectiveness when practiced both in and out of a structured therapeutic environment. I don't follow any strict "discipline" myself, but would tend to look at forgiveness processes and goals that were religiously-driven with much more scrutiny since I don't believe religion is necessary to accomplish forgiveness.

[deinotes]

Scooby, from what you told i get the feeling that this was generations long in the family.
And probably you mother herself was abused and saw it as something "normal" or even something christian to do to children.
I think this is how she dealt with the frustrations of her life , after all what is a easier target than a small child ?
So i think not only your mother is to blame but your whole family as you said you aunts and your father looked the other way or did it themselves .
I am not going to start the blame game but just give you some perspective, that there is plenty of blame to go around and that any of them could stood up and say no to your mother.

It's probably very hard to forgive someone who don't even see you as the men you are today but that's her problem not yours.
She probably still has all her wounds still in the open how worked that beating for her in having a happy life ?
She probably has a very hard time with it since she still has the need to put you down.

Even now i feel more sorry with her, than with you because your dealing with your problems and probably will leave this shit behind you in time. While she probably caries it around with her till she dies.

[rickster]

	Originally Posted by deinotes To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Even now i feel more sorry with her, than with you because your dealing with your problems and probably will leave this shit behind you in time. While she probably caries it around with her till she dies.

Well this is it isn't it? We know that victims usually create victims, and when we step outside the blame game we see the true sadness of victimhood in its continuum form, and how it's like a tumbleweed rolling from generation to generation.

[StreetScooby]

Originally Posted by rickster To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

No, it's best to define meanings. My meaning of forgiveness is the standard dictionary meaning...essentally a full pardon for all wrongdoings, without excessively focusing on the actual wrong acts. How we implement forgiveness I'd say changes drastically from person to person. My personal process involves understanding that no "hurt" caused by others can be allowed to rob me of the happiness which is my birthright. I carefully examine both the acts and the perpetrator, and invariably I come to believe that they have less power over me than I previously thought. I come to feel a sense of compassion for the wrongdoer because I'm aware that I'll never know their full story i.e. what made them the way they are. More often than not, I'm able to see an abusers own nightmare of pain and suffering, and that alone is often enough to turn my old hatreds and fears into my own kindness and mercy. It's important for me to not fear what in essence may be actually trivial. But there are many approaches to implementation of forgiveness, and notably an overwhelming number of candidates (within a 90+% want-to-forgive majority) report not knowing how to implement forgiveness. I most certainly have thought about it, and I certainly wouldn't advocate any psychotherapeutic process without either having experienced its value, or be able to cite evidence of effectiveness. My knowledge of forgiveness certainly isn't my original thoughts. Until the early 80s the concept of forgiveness was pretty much a staple of most religions, with varying degrees and interpretations of the place of deity within the process, and differing requirements of "repentance." Secular psychotherapy however tends to treat the process of forgiveness as a stand-alone, with unforgiveness as the obstacle to happiness. Forgiveness is currently finding its own place across medicine, philosophy and psychology, with studies indicating about equal effectiveness when practiced both in and out of a structured therapeutic environment. I don't follow any strict "discipline" myself, but would tend to look at forgiveness processes and goals that were religiously-driven with much more scrutiny since I don't believe religion is necessary to accomplish forgiveness.

Thank you, rickster. That was very helpful.





StreetScooby added to this post, 9 minutes and 51 seconds later...

Originally Posted by deinotes To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Scooby, from what you told i get the feeling that this was generations long in the family. And probably you mother herself was abused and saw it as something "normal" or even something christian to do to children. I think this is how she dealt with the frustrations of her life , after all what is a easier target than a small child ? So i think not only your mother is to blame but your whole family as you said you aunts and your father looked the other way or did it themselves . I am not going to start the blame game but just give you some perspective, that there is plenty of blame to go around and that any of them could stood up and say no to your mother. It's probably very hard to forgive someone who don't even see you as the men you are today but that's her problem not yours. She probably still has all her wounds still in the open how worked that beating for her in having a happy life ? She probably has a very hard time with it since she still has the need to put you down. Even now i feel more sorry with her, than with you because your dealing with your problems and probably will leave this shit behind you in time. While she probably caries it around with her till she dies.

My mother's side of the family were the holy rollers. My father's side of the family were the hell raisers. My father joined the Navy, and basically wrote my mother letters. He got out of the Navy, and decided to raise a family. So, he married my mother, the week after she graduated high school. I don't think there was alot of dating involved in their relationship. Both my mother's family, and my father's family, never left the small town they lived in. Dad was pretty much the first generation to leave that town. He worked his ass off, big time. When I was in 2nd grade, we bought a new house because Dad had got his dream job working as an operator in a chemical plant along the Mississippi river. He made my mother quit her job as a secretary at Merrill Lynch to raise me, and my newly born sister. She was already beating me regularly, even at 6 years of age. But, when she had to quit her job, things got much, much worse for me.

You're right that both sides of my family knew what was going on. A few did try to raise the issue of few times, but the result was absolutely volcanic. "He is mine, and I will do with him as I please".





StreetScooby added to this post, 10 minutes and 34 seconds later...

Originally Posted by DrGuitar To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I forgave my parents for the countless daily, (sometimes hourly) beatings I survived through out my childhood and youth. I forgave their insidious berating and mental torture. I forgave their pulling me into arguments at 3:30 in the morning (a regular occurrence) and then beating me when I would not take sides. I rather not go into more specifics because although I have lived through these memories many times, I do not wish to dwell on them right now. But I think you get the point. How did I forgive? I make a decision that carrying around anger toward parents that would never admit to their abusive behavior was not helping me or my adult relationship with them. I did have conversations with both of them as an adult (in my 20s) letting them know that if they wanted a relationship with me, I had certain boundaries. And they learned those boundaries and followed them (that is where the respect came in). So I forgave them. I was no longer that child with belt wounds. I was no longer called demeaning names by them. I was no longer being blamed for their mistakes. I no longer needed to carry the anger that went with those earlier acts. As a result, my father and I spoke every week and as typical father and sons do, we would speak of cures for mankind and tell jokes. My mother and I would go to brunch nearly every Sunday and I was able to help her when she needed it. Would it have been nice to have them confess their sins and give me closure? I guess. But I forgave them for me, not so they could get it off their chest. I did not need a confession or even an apology. They both died relatively young and I felt like they loved me before they died. Mostly because I was able to let go of my anger and forgive them. So you see, I forgave them because it was the right thing to do for me. It was a selfish act that benefited everyone. I have no doubt that your father has respect for you. I'm sorry about your mother. My mother had a difficult time showing me respect also. Mostly, I saw respect come from her in the form of what she did not do. But that was the best I was going to get from her and that was fine with me. True forgiveness should not come with too many caveats.

How do you forgive, without active participation from the person you're forgiving?





StreetScooby added to this post, 13 minutes and 55 seconds later...

	Originally Posted by rickster To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Well this is it isn't it? We know that victims usually create victims, and when we step outside the blame game we see the true sadness of victimhood in its continuum form, and how it's like a tumbleweed rolling from generation to generation.

I have broken the chain of ignorance and violence in my lineage. So has my sister. We both see our mother for who she is. Neither of us want anything to do with her, ever.

[deinotes]

Originally Posted by StreetScooby To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

My mother's side of the family were the holy rollers. My father's side of the family were the hell raisers. My father joined the Navy, and basically wrote my mother letters. He got out of the Navy, and decided to raise a family. So, he married my mother, the week after she graduated high school. I don't think there was alot of dating involved in their relationship. Both my mother's family, and my father's family, never left the small town they lived in. Dad was pretty much the first generation to leave that town. He worked his ass off, big time. When I was in 2nd grade, we bought a new house because Dad had got his dream job working as an operator in a chemical plant along the Mississippi river. He made my mother quit her job as a secretary at Merrill Lynch to raise me, and my newly born sister. She was already beating me regularly, even at 6 years of age. But, when she had to quit her job, things got much, much worse for me.

Scooby you are just confirming a lot what i said.
Do you see it yourself ?
try to see it from a distance and not as the little boy.
See what the emotions are around the table with the different parties on the different times.
The time your dad got his job it was probably a very happy time for him but he kind of forced your mother into a live which she maybe didn't like.
Also you don't know what the poeple really thought neither do i,so that's why you may ask family members how it was in that time.
Even better is it to ask your mother or father themselves but since you got a very bad relationship that may be difficult.
Your also kind of lucky that your sister is in the same boat so you can work together with her and see also her viewpoint on the different events.
As a child you see things very different than a adult.
I know nothing about beating and mothers seeing their children as property maybe you want to look into that and find out why she sees you as property and not as a human being ?

[jellygator]

Originally Posted by rickster To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Nothing could be less wise, or more fundamentally useless if that's your interpretation of forgiveness and its purpose. Like many, you are looking for excuses to prolong your fears. In that pissy version of forgiveness, who benefits? Do you believe forgiveness is some as-yet unexperienced entity which will fall from heaven to you, and you will be able to condescendingly hand it out in dribs and drabs according to who best prostrates themselves in guilt and submission before you? How you handle "the likelihood of occurrence" is a completely separate issue: that's just another one of your fears, and if you link it to forgiveness you are not likely to heal anytime in the near future. Forgiveness is a decision. We are human beings with free will. We use free will to make decisions. We decide to forgive in order to facilitate healing. If you are unwilling to forgive then at least be honest enough to say that you refuse to practice forgiveness, instead of coming up with unreasonable justifications (and rewrites of the word) to suit your purposes. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. (Jellygator inserts: and later... by saying if someone has forgiven...) hehe but you're still significantly ahead of the game aren't you? You are out of that cancerous loop of continuing to injure yourself, and therefore your healing is actually happening, rather than being exacerbated. Congratulations. You'll find your healing will proceed to the exact degree to which you are willing to continue practicing forgiveness and experience its rewards

Rickster, if your way works for you, then great. But in the meantime, you sound pretty accusatory and hostile for someone who apparently does not understand what I've said.

First off, it's not a matter of fear when a pattern is so determined, and every resource imaginable has been tried. I don't have to fear it to choose not to participate in it. It simply becomes a matter of taking care of oneself to stop engaging. I understand that you believe that a conscious choice in forgiving is the first step in helping oneself feel better. In my viewpoint and experience, "better" is almost (though not quite) synonymous with "superior to" and if a person must feel superior to heal, then so be it. That's not helpful for everyone.

A couple of scenarios to help you understand what I meant...

1. I stop interacting with a person who repeatedly hurts me and with whom I cannot find a means of protecting myself while still maintaining the relationship.

I may still feel angry, hurt or whatever. So I "decide" to forgive. Yet no matter how many times I tell myself to forgive them, or believe that I have, those feelings still come up, and will come up again if I ever have an interaction with the person. Therefore, I have not truly forgiven them, because the negative energy still surrounds the relationship with them.

2. I continue to interact with the person, and I "decide" to forgive them but their behavior doesn't change. I can and do expect and experience more behaviors similar to those I have supposedly forgiven. Do I no longer feel hurt and angry at the poor treatment of me? This is not healing, it's exposing oneself to more victimization.

3. I continue to interact, because the person has pledged a change. At first, I still have doubts and fears, and as a healthy person I respect my thoughts and feelings as the natural things that they are. If the other person does not change, then I have had my guard up and may not experience as much hurt. In other words, I have taken care of myself. But if they *do* change, and I go through weeks, months, years, without seeing that kind of behavior, then I no longer guard against it. I am no longer vulnerable to it. I have no need to fear it, and no longer any reason to be angry. The negative energy is now truly gone. That is the only point where I can say full forgiveness has taken place.

The idea of forgiveness you express is an incomplete one that truly does prolong suffering. I "forgave" my mother dozens of times, only to be hurt again. She is no longer a part of my life, but continues to behave the same with my brother, so I cannot find true acceptance (forgiveness), as the energy cannot dissipate while the threat remains.

Please don't confuse "forgiveness" with the willingness to allow vulnerability. They're not the same thing. And as for rewriting words and being unwise, well.... at least my concept holds up for all scenarios, where yours does not.