[azelismia]

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I would have expected this. It will be a useful tool for identifying these people early on. My ex was sent to psychologists over and over again as a kid but was a clever manipulator and managed to turn it on his parents and make them seem like the mad ones.

[Night Runner]

This seems like something from Minority Report. Some people may be naturally more inclined to violence, but that doesn't mean that all people with that brain pattern will become sociopaths, just like not all criminals have that brain pattern. There's a lot of "normal-brained" people who commit crimes, too. You are correct in that "[i]t will be a useful tool for identifying these people early on" but that is all it should be. Of course, human nature being what it is, I'd bet my money that it's only a matter of time before someone starts abusing their power and locking up young potential sociopaths... It might become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[azelismia]

Originally Posted by Night Runner To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

This seems like something from Minority Report. Some people may be naturally more inclined to violence, but that doesn't mean that all people with that brain pattern will become sociopaths, just like not all criminals have that brain pattern. There's a lot of "normal-brained" people who commit crimes, too. You are correct in that "[i]t will be a useful tool for identifying these people early on" but that is all it should be. Of course, human nature being what it is, I'd bet my money that it's only a matter of time before someone starts abusing their power and locking up young potential sociopaths... It might become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I don't know what the numbers are in this study, but it implies there is a difference. normal people do not have the same differences as people with these abnormal brain patterns. this is a way to identify sociopaths. it doesn't necessarily mean they will commit a crime but they are far more likely to. where is your proof that "normal" people commit atrocities just as much as people with these brain patterns? Sociopaths look quite normal on the outside.

[Josephine1012]

I think it's a matter of what you do with this information. I think the study is useful as is identification of these patterns in an individual (our medical records are sealed), but it alerts child's parents in regards to what clues they should look for when a kid is acting outside of "normal" bounds of morality.

[Night Runner]

	Originally Posted by azelismia To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	where is your proof that "normal" people commit atrocities just as much as people with these brain patterns? Sociopaths look quite normal on the outside.

Not "as much as" but they still commit crimes. (Numbers, we need some numbers here and soon...) Somehow, I highly doubt everyone in our penal system has the "sociopath" brain pattern - just as I doubt that everyone with the "sociopath" brain pattern is indeed a sociopath. I have a sneaking suspicion that some professional athletes found a way to harness that aggression and use it for their advantage.

[azelismia]

Originally Posted by Night Runner To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Not "as much as" but they still commit crimes. (Numbers, we need some numbers here and soon...) Somehow, I highly doubt everyone in our penal system has the "sociopath" brain pattern - just as I doubt that everyone with the "sociopath" brain pattern is indeed a sociopath. I have a sneaking suspicion that some professional athletes found a way to harness that aggression and use it for their advantage.

Why do you doubt that everyone with the sociopath brain pattern is a sociopath? it's a medically defined thing. the brain controls various behavioral patterns. it's physiology. no one ever said that everyone in prison was a sociopath and what are you talking about with the professional athlete line?

[Night Runner]

	Originally Posted by azelismia To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Why do you doubt that everyone with the sociopath brain pattern is a sociopath? it's a medically defined thing.

Because there have been so many "medically defined things" in the past that were either false or correct but used to justify horrible things - or both. The 19th-century phrenology comes to mind... I don't doubt that everyone with the sociopath brain pattern may have more sociopathic tendencies than your average bear. What I doubt is that everyone with the sociopath brain pattern is a sociopath. Unless I'm very mistaken, their control sample was full of imprisoned sociopaths. There is such a thing as a non-violent person with soicopathic tendencies. I'm sure there's a number of them out there, leading relatively normal lives. Which brings me to the next point:

	what are you talking about with the professional athlete line?

I'm just saying that there are a number of outlets for those sociopath traits, and professional sports seems like a natural choice. In some of the more competitive sports, you have to be meaner and more willing to win than the other guy. Is this so hard to understand?..

	no one ever said that everyone in prison was a sociopath

You are right. No one ever said that. What I did say was that since not all prisoners are sociopaths, would it not be logical to assume the possibility that not all people with sociopathic tendencies are criminals?

[azelismia]

Originally Posted by Night Runner To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Because there have been so many "medically defined things" in the past that were either false or correct but used to justify horrible things - or both. The 19th-century phrenology comes to mind... I don't doubt that everyone with the sociopath brain pattern may have more sociopathic tendencies than your average bear. What I doubt is that everyone with the sociopath brain pattern is a sociopath. Unless I'm very mistaken, their control sample was full of imprisoned sociopaths. There is such a thing as a non-violent person with soicopathic tendencies. I'm sure there's a number of them out there, leading relatively normal lives. Which brings me to the next point: I'm just saying that there are a number of outlets for those sociopath traits, and professional sports seems like a natural choice. In some of the more competitive sports, you have to be meaner and more willing to win than the other guy. Is this so hard to understand?.. You are right. No one ever said that. What I did say was that since not all prisoners are sociopaths, would it not be logical to assume the possibility that not all people with sociopathic tendencies are criminals?

no one ever said that all people who are sociopathic are criminals. medical science has come a long way since phrenology. Trying to use that as an example is not valid. This is a breakthru for psychology and learning the way the brain works and functions. psychopaths are different from normal people and they have found a co-responding link that shows what and where that difference is. that's the first step for learning how to fix people with that disability.

[Night Runner]

	Originally Posted by azelismia To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	that's the first step for learning how to fix people with that disability.

But what if they don't want to be fixed?.. Let's assume you have the ability to alter their brain chemistry and to make them more "normal," whatever that means. If you want to apply that method to a deranged killer, be my guest. But what if we're talking about a person who learned to control this "handicap" and who not only keeps whatever sociopathic urges there may be under control - but also functions as well as or maybe even better than other people. If you alter that person's brain chemistry, you're likely to end up with, well, another person - a human being with the same body but entirely different personality. Do you see my point? Do we have the right to perform brain surgery on functional members of society who may have certain tendencies? Now do you see what I meant when I said it's a slippery slope?..

Furthermore - about "fixing" people with disabilities. This isn't the same issue, but it's close enough to bring up, in my opinion. I'm borderline Aspie (the jury is still out). In my research of the Asperger's community, I found that a lot of diagnosed Aspies are vehemently opposed to any kind of cure. They've learned to live with their differences and they make a very valid point: if you "cure" them, you'll destroy their personalities and create new ones. In a way, you will kill the part of them that makes them unique. There have been far too many instances of the good intentions going haywire in the past (and I'm not just talking about the 19th century here), and I think that warrants a very careful examination of what exactly we should do with this new data.

[Nemesis]

Although the article introduces some exciting findings, I would be hesitant to jump to the conclusion that there could be ways to identify sociopathy early on. The OFC is a particularly plastic region of the brain and it's connections into the limbic system can change a great deal throughout development and from a variety of influences. It will take a lot more research to be able to pinpoint when in the lifespan these differences emerge, let alone use it to identify sociopathy early. Just because it's there doesn't mean it was always there. Also, there are likely to be many other conditions whose neural substrates look much like the ones underpinning sociopathy. Those would need to be teased apart before we start labeling (and mislabeling) people as sociopaths. As Nightrunner noted, not everyone with this pattern in the brain is necessarily a sociopath.

In regards to the methodology given in the article, it sounds like this study has not yet been replicated and verified yet by other researchers, so it will take some time to confirm that there's really anything valuable to report. Also, it seems that the study used only one imaging technique (DT-MRI). So, it would be wise to wait until structural and neurochemical analysis is done to draw any conclusions. Given the sample of subjects used in the study (criminals), the actual sample size was probably small which lowers the power of the resulting stats blah blah blah...

As compelling as it is, there's not much to get excited about here...yet.

[azelismia]

Originally Posted by Nemesis To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Although the article introduces some exciting findings, I would be hesitant to jump to the conclusion that there could be ways to identify sociopathy early on. The OFC is a particularly plastic region of the brain and it's connections into the limbic system can change a great deal throughout development and from a variety of influences. It will take a lot more research to be able to pinpoint when in the lifespan these differences emerge, let alone use it to identify sociopathy early. Just because it's there doesn't mean it was always there. Also, there are likely to be many other conditions whose neural substrates look much like the ones underpinning sociopathy. Those would need to be teased apart before we start labeling (and mislabeling) people as sociopaths. As Nightrunner noted, not everyone with this pattern in the brain is necessarily a sociopath. In regards to the methodology given in the article, it sounds like this study has not yet been replicated and verified yet by other researchers, so it will take some time to confirm that there's really anything valuable to report. Also, it seems that the study used only one imaging technique (DT-MRI). So, it would be wise to wait until structural and neurochemical analysis is done to draw any conclusions. Given the sample of subjects used in the study (criminals), the actual sample size was probably small which lowers the power of the resulting stats blah blah blah... As compelling as it is, there's not much to get excited about here...yet.

here is another article.
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FWIW, I wasn't suggesting that it was anything that I expected to see implimented tomorrow. I think it is worth getting excited over now because it is a first step in identifying and correcting this sort of mental disability.

[Night Runner]

	Originally Posted by azelismia To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	it is a first step in identifying and correcting this sort of mental disability.

But only if the affected people either can't decide for themselves or volunteer of their own accord, right?..

[Nemesis]

	Originally Posted by azelismia To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	here is another article. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. FWIW, I wasn't suggesting that it was anything that I expected to see implimented tomorrow. I think it is worth getting excited over now because it is a first step in identifying and correcting this sort of mental disability.

Cool link! Call it a half-step and I'll be in agreement
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I find the focus on the OFC interesting because the structure is almost always implicated in violent behaviour patterns. I wonder if non-violent sociopaths have a different profile. If they do, then the OFC (and it's connections) would only account for the violent subset of sociopaths and the neural substrates of sociopathy in general would remain illusive. Nevertheless, very cool stuff Az.

[Ray9]

	My ex was sent to psychologists over and over again as a kid

I'm sure my ex describes me the same way. We're all sociopaths.


The article describes "psychopaths".

[azelismia]

	Originally Posted by Ray9 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I'm sure my ex describes me the same way. We're all sociopaths. The article describes "psychopaths".

We are not all sociopaths. I don't know you so I cannot comment on your Sociopathic tendencies or not, but I am not calling him a sociopath lightly. I have the police files to back me up.

Nemesis, Ok half step. Deal.

[BlackOp]

Great...one more piece of personal data to be embedded in my license. I miss the old days of people not knowing if I would chop them up or not. Government "all up in" my shit...
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takes the fun out of the surprise.

Rara when are you coming to Chicago....
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[CRIM]

I maybe arguing semantics but do psychopaths exist as a social construct or a biological creation? It seems to me that people desperately seek out "evidence" to separate normal people from non-normal people. However, I wouldn't disagree that maybe their portion of the amygdala is more active than usual. I also wouldn't disagree with the idea that all people are sociopaths. It's merely a key to survival. I mean why do you do think people go to college? To obviously get fitted/reconstructed with the knowledge of deception.

[JonD]

A great breakthrough, to be sure, but I think it's difficult to use it as an identifier for potential criminals.

Surely there must be some who have this type of detectable difference in their brain, but have exercised the self control to live a normal life. But, given the limits of this type of research, (It's easier to look for similarities in people diagnosed psychologically as sociopathic, than scan the general population to see if some have these traits, yet are normal), we may not know. Also, there must be degrees of how much someone is a sociopath. Then there is the question of where someone draws the line between normal and sociopath, or do they adopt a categorizational system, with A for very sociopathic, B for fairly sociopathic, and so on.

I think it's a step down a slippery slope. This new information could yes, which I believe the OP is suggesting, be used to detain potential sociopaths who have this type of brain even though they have yet to exhibit sociopathic behaviour. In my mind, people are still innocent until proven guilty, regardless of what a brain scan may say.

Plus, MRI tests are not exactly like take-home pregnancy kits. They have to have a reason to perform this kind of scan, and therefore using it as an identifier of potential sociopaths isn't practical. They could scan criminals convicted of certain crimes, but you still run into the same problem as I mentioned before. They can only be detained if they've broken a law under our current system. There could be a sociopath registry, or some way to make sure all those who deal with this kind of person are notified, I guess. I think that may be the extent of its use.

[azelismia]

Originally Posted by JonD To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

A great breakthrough, to be sure, but I think it's difficult to use it as an identifier for potential criminals. Surely there must be some who have this type of detectable difference in their brain, but have exercised the self control to live a normal life. But, given the limits of this type of research, (It's easier to look for similarities in people diagnosed psychologically as sociopathic, than scan the general population to see if some have these traits, yet are normal), we may not know. Also, there must be degrees of how much someone is a sociopath. Then there is the question of where someone draws the line between normal and sociopath, or do they adopt a categorizational system, with A for very sociopathic, B for fairly sociopathic, and so on. I think it's a step down a slippery slope. This new information could yes, which I believe the OP is suggesting, be used to detain potential sociopaths who have this type of brain even though they have yet to exhibit sociopathic behaviour. In my mind, people are still innocent until proven guilty, regardless of what a brain scan may say. Plus, MRI tests are not exactly like take-home pregnancy kits. They have to have a reason to perform this kind of scan, and therefore using it as an identifier of potential sociopaths isn't practical. They could scan criminals convicted of certain crimes, but you still run into the same problem as I mentioned before. They can only be detained if they've broken a law under our current system. There could be a sociopath registry, or some way to make sure all those who deal with this kind of person are notified, I guess. I think that may be the extent of its use.

I dont' think it would be looked at as a key to identify potential criminals, but rather a diagnostic tool for identifying mental disorder and perhaps being able to identify ways of restoring function to the areas that appear to be cut off.

[admittedheretic]

Here is quick little video about the matter.


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I've been reading Genome by Mathew Ridley and have been learning all about our antagonist X and Y chromosomes. There won't be a sociopath gene, but without a doubt there will be a statistical pattern of genes associated with it. Mental disorders more often than not are just mental differences from the statistical minority. By the same logic we could say that being INTJ is a disorder. There are many people with disorders that don't negatively effect enough for them to even become aware of it and indeed some benefit from their conditions.

[Nemesis]

Just found this on Reuters.


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[azelismia]

Originally Posted by admittedheretic To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Here is quick little video about the matter. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. I've been reading Genome by Mathew Ridley and have been learning all about our antagonist X and Y chromosomes. There won't be a sociopath gene, but without a doubt there will be a statistical pattern of genes associated with it. Mental disorders more often than not are just mental differences from the statistical minority. By the same logic we could say that being INTJ is a disorder. There are many people with disorders that don't negatively effect enough for them to even become aware of it and indeed some benefit from their conditions.

there is a big difference between an intj and someone who has no emotion or empathy and a penchant for causing serious malady to innocent bystanders.

this is a pet peeve of mine. people tend to like to mix up the stereotype of insanity and the thinking type. they are not related.

[Ither]

	Originally Posted by azelismia To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	this is a pet peeve of mine. people tend to like to mix up the stereotype of insanity and the thinking type. they are not related.

Maybe. Are you sure? After all, that different disorders be correllated to personality types does not seem unreasonable. Whether it is true.....