People imposing their beliefs/values on you.

**brntout** · 06-20-2009, 09:40 AM

I would think this should be a crime categorized in the same class of severity as harrassment and assault if not something more severe. This is worse than any befowlment of your freedom of speech. I would also think this in essence a breaching of your freedom in general: a breaching of your right to live. Any thoughts on this?

**Alex** · 06-20-2009, 09:49 AM

This is pretty much the bedrock of why I'm a libertarian. The idea of living by any person's specific value system, especially just because it's the value system of the majority, is revolting to me.

**Wittshell** · 06-20-2009, 10:10 AM

That's why I dislike ESFJs.

**Prunesquallor** · 06-20-2009, 10:52 AM

That's how you get the *HULK SMASH* reaction from me.

It does form a role in keeping societies cohesive, which can be a strength, but I must say it's not one I entirely appreciate.

**smabers** · 06-20-2009, 01:34 PM

Just hearing about other people's insane beliefs or values makes my blood pressure rise. People should be careful about talking to others about their fundamental differences in thinking, not to mention actually trying to impose them.

**childofprodigy** · 06-20-2009, 01:56 PM

by the way, there's a Jehovah Witness missionary knocking on your door

just to let you know...

**Jaden Arbiter** · 06-20-2009, 04:04 PM

	Originally Posted by childofprodigy To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	by the way, there's a Jehovah Witness missionary knocking on your door just to let you know...

Exactly, religion is the best example. Not only as a system that throws self-contradictory values at you but it's an impressively strong strawman as well.

**Seriously** · 06-20-2009, 04:10 PM

	Originally Posted by childofprodigy To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	by the way, there's a Jehovah Witness missionary knocking on your door just to let you know...

Yea, that used to be me. It if helps, I didn't enjoy it.

**Mogura** · 06-20-2009, 05:28 PM

	Originally Posted by brntout To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I would think this should be a crime categorized in the same class of severity as harrassment and assault if not something more severe. This is worse than any befowlment of your freedom of speech. I would also think this in essence a breaching of your freedom in general: a breaching of your right to live. Any thoughts on this?

I'm in total agreement. I only wanted to add that public flogging would be the punishment suitable for this crime...

**Night Runner** · 06-20-2009, 05:34 PM

I usually ignore the "imposers" - unless I'm really bored, that is...
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Then I mind-f*** them by exposing all the holes and gaps in their oh-so-perfect worldview and telling them some of the lesser-known facts from their religion/politics. (I.e., Operation Snow White, the Pope once being in the Hitler Youth, the fact that Lincoln didn't really care for slaves to begin with, etc.) Watching their world fall to pieces - or that first seed of doubt growing in their mind - is well worth the time.

**Samoan Corleone** · 06-20-2009, 06:18 PM

I'll give them the time of day to listen to what they're saying, but I won't take any of it in. When they try to tell me how I should think or feel about something I'll start pointing out flaws in their argument and asking hard questions.

I got to a certain age where I felt my parents where trying to impose their beliefs on me, especially in terms of politics. These days I'll just nod my head at their lectures while daydreaming about the house I'm going to build when I finally buy The Sims 3. Yeah, that house is gonna be liberal and left-wing, man!

**SilviaC** · 06-20-2009, 10:16 PM

Depends what you mean by impose. Yeah, it is annoying when someone tries to get you to agree with them about an issue. It's another thing altogether when it is forced upon you by rules or legislation. Or even by societal pressure, I suppose.

I have a friend who believes that the Bible is the literal word of God and that everyone in the world should live according to its principles. When I say, "Even if we agreed that was a good idea, which translation or interpretation would we use? How would we reconcile contradictions?" his head explodes and he accuses me of being argumentative.

My point being, even institutional value systems do not make sense a lot of the time. We are better off with high level societal value systems that most people can accept. That said, I wish our society valued education for its own sake, not as a means to a vocation, and given the chance I would impose that value system on everyone!

**Vagrant** · 06-20-2009, 11:33 PM

If somebody just wants to inform me about their beliefs, fine, whatever. I don't particularly care. If you present your beliefs in a cohesive and sensible manner, I may actually listen.

It's when you start trying to persuade me that my beliefs are incorrect, or that I should do things according to your rules that I start to get a bit pissy. I decide what to do with my own life, not you.

**ThirdEye** · 06-21-2009, 04:00 AM

I used to have a lot of fun turning the worlds of the self-righteous upside down. I avoid it if I can nowadays though, if just for the sheer fact that I have better things to do. I have absolutely no problem shooting down the more tenacious ones, though.

**Obsidean** · 06-21-2009, 04:28 AM

I like when people do this to me but don't get me wrong its still annoying

**llBradll** · 06-21-2009, 08:34 PM

That's life. Independent thought needs to be encourage a lot more, rather than having people who will just say this is right and this is wrong.

**Monte314** · 06-21-2009, 09:14 PM

Yes. Other people who try to exercise freedom of speech should be horse-whipped.

**rickster** · 06-21-2009, 09:24 PM

People imposing their beliefs and values on others is reprehensible.

I believe this wholeheartedly; to the point that when I'm President Of The World I will prohibit this practice, and enforce it at gunpoint.
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**brntout** · 06-22-2009, 02:07 AM

	Originally Posted by Monte314 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Yes. Other people who try to exercise freedom of speech should be horse-whipped.

Not quite. They can speek freely all they want, but when I am personally bothered, this is an invasion of space. Keep beliefs and values to yourself, I have my own values. If people ask for your opinion on how their own values and beliefs are unacceptable to themselves and want to know how you would handle and fix their situation fine, tell them all you or they want. But dont impose on people who have their own solutions or even lack of, all based on what their own value construct is. All this based on if the person(s) asking for the opinions of others are considering their own value system as unsatisfactory.

**The Fury** · 06-22-2009, 02:30 AM

I dislike people who attempt to impose their own beliefs on me but luckily I haven't run into too many in my lifetime. I usually just ignore them when I do.

**Kris** · 06-22-2009, 03:07 AM

People all have a reason why they feel the need to express their beliefs to another, and in some cases attempt to change the beliefs of another. I'm positive everyone has situations where they would feel justified in doing this, the problem arises when the person on the receiving end doesn't agree with the justification held by the speaker. For some people that situation might be the potential endangerment of person(s) they care about. For some religious people, its obviously the fate of you're soul or whatever. I actually think the people who have no real personal justification and just want everyone to hold their views are in the minority.

As irritating as it can be to be on the receiving end, I try to keep an open mind about what motivates people to do the things they do. That said, if someone is too pushy I will push back pretty hard.

**Alex** · 06-22-2009, 05:32 AM

Kris - I definitely see what you're saying, and I like your point of view on the matter. It isn't that I never see that people have very specific reasons for at times pushing their views on others, your example of the religious being exactly the one I'd choose. I do realize that, in their minds, you simply don't understand the "gift" or "privilege" you've rejected, and that it could result in something terrible befalling you.

I guess, for me, it's not the idea that they think they're "the correct one" - that their views are so exclusively right that they feel it's almost a duty to inform everyone else they're "wrong". Instead, it's the idea that they think other people haven't thought about their alternative - that we don't see as they do because we simply lack understanding in an academic sense. I get the impression from most of them that, if we simply had it broken down into its basic pieces and parts and REALLY understood, then we'd see things exactly the way they do.

I think that's what really hacks me off about it; when it comes to proselytizing Christians, it's really hard to make THEM understand that, yes, I know what Jesus supposedly did "for me" (I also know the very convoluted and rather F'd up circumstances surrounding WHY he even had to do it) and no, I don't care. They don't get that I realize they see it as a gift, and that by their mythology, it IS a gift - and they don't get that I reject it. Not just on the grounds that I have never seen any concrete proof of their assertions (I'm simply not equipped for "faith"), but because I've read their interpretation of what they think God and Jesus and the universe is, in the Bible, and I think the entire story is abhorrent. Basically, if I were ever truly PROVEN wrong, and there WAS actually a God, I'd still reject it because I've read his biography, and it makes him look like a tw@t.

This could apply to several other areas of life (politics, philosophy, etc), but this is usually the one I find myself on the receiving end of when others attempt to push. I do try to understand where they're coming from, but I often find that they judge me as being ignorant and uninformed - I couldn't POSSIBLY know their doctrine intricately (I do) and not accept it (I don't).

**encrypted** · 06-22-2009, 06:04 AM

i just start doing my weirdo intj thing where i start breaking down their possible motives to gain acceptance from someone who probably lacks respect for them in the first place or something to freak em out and make them feel vulnerable.. they usually never come back to me with that "you should" business after that lol

**Tough Love** · 06-22-2009, 06:20 AM

	Originally Posted by Alex To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I do try to understand where they're coming from, but I often find that they judge me as being ignorant and uninformed - I couldn't POSSIBLY know their doctrine intricately (I do) and not accept it (I don't).

I find that this is a major problem people have with discussing religion or religios beliefs with people who dont believe the same. As someone who believes in God, i often find myself in a tricky situation, where we will be discussing a concept of my belief (i do not do this with people who do not want to hear about it, not only because they dont want to hear about it, but also, why should i waste my time explaining the ins and outs of something so important to me, to someone who isnt really interested?) and i have to 'dumb it down' in a sense, or simplify it. There is no way they will understand if i give them the full -loaded option. It can be very difficult explaining beliefs to someone that doesnt have the fundemental knowlege of the particular religion in question.
Its the same as if i asked a mathemetician about a complex math question, no matter how hard he tries not to dumb it down for me so that i wont think he's being condescending, he will have to, to make me understand it. I personally pass this type of thing off as him knowing more about math than i do. So to, a person with certain beliefs will know alot more about those beliefs than you do and will therefore come across as more 'educated' in relation to those beliefs.
If this makes me seem condescending to the people i talk about my beliefs to, then there is nothing i can do. Dont ask me, and dont make smugly snide little comments that in reality are just begging for an argument.

**smashy** · 06-22-2009, 06:34 AM

I can't believe someone would be so stupid to try to impose their beliefs on me, it would be crushed.

I think discussing different points of view is one thing, imposing own beliefs on other person is a total lack of respect and I don't tolerate this by any means, especially because I don't follow "common beliefs" neither I care about others beliefs.

06-20-2009, 09:40 AM	#1
brntout Banned MBTI: intp Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 54	I would think this should be a crime categorized in the same class of severity as harrassment and assault if not something more severe. This is worse than any befowlment of your freedom of speech. I would also think this in essence a breaching of your freedom in general: a breaching of your right to live. Any thoughts on this?
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06-20-2009, 09:49 AM	#2
Alex Member [05%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 229	This is pretty much the bedrock of why I'm a libertarian. The idea of living by any person's specific value system, especially just because it's the value system of the majority, is revolting to me.
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06-20-2009, 10:10 AM	#3
Wittshell New Member [01%] MBTI: xxxx Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 46	That's why I dislike ESFJs.
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06-20-2009, 10:52 AM	#4
Prunesquallor Veteran Member [66%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 2,647	That's how you get the HULK SMASH reaction from me. It does form a role in keeping societies cohesive, which can be a strength, but I must say it's not one I entirely appreciate.
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06-20-2009, 01:34 PM	#5
smabers Member [03%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 140	Just hearing about other people's insane beliefs or values makes my blood pressure rise. People should be careful about talking to others about their fundamental differences in thinking, not to mention actually trying to impose them.
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06-20-2009, 01:56 PM	#6
childofprodigy Member [28%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 1,132	by the way, there's a Jehovah Witness missionary knocking on your door just to let you know...
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06-20-2009, 05:34 PM	#10
Night Runner Core Member [148%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 5,931	I usually ignore the "imposers" - unless I'm really bored, that is... To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Then I mind-f*** them by exposing all the holes and gaps in their oh-so-perfect worldview and telling them some of the lesser-known facts from their religion/politics. (I.e., Operation Snow White, the Pope once being in the Hitler Youth, the fact that Lincoln didn't really care for slaves to begin with, etc.) Watching their world fall to pieces - or that first seed of doubt growing in their mind - is well worth the time.
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06-20-2009, 06:18 PM	#11
Samoan Corleone Core Member [151%] MBTI: INxJ Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 6,078	I'll give them the time of day to listen to what they're saying, but I won't take any of it in. When they try to tell me how I should think or feel about something I'll start pointing out flaws in their argument and asking hard questions. I got to a certain age where I felt my parents where trying to impose their beliefs on me, especially in terms of politics. These days I'll just nod my head at their lectures while daydreaming about the house I'm going to build when I finally buy The Sims 3. Yeah, that house is gonna be liberal and left-wing, man!
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06-20-2009, 10:16 PM	#12
SilviaC New Member [01%] MBTI: ISTJ Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 9	Depends what you mean by impose. Yeah, it is annoying when someone tries to get you to agree with them about an issue. It's another thing altogether when it is forced upon you by rules or legislation. Or even by societal pressure, I suppose. I have a friend who believes that the Bible is the literal word of God and that everyone in the world should live according to its principles. When I say, "Even if we agreed that was a good idea, which translation or interpretation would we use? How would we reconcile contradictions?" his head explodes and he accuses me of being argumentative. My point being, even institutional value systems do not make sense a lot of the time. We are better off with high level societal value systems that most people can accept. That said, I wish our society valued education for its own sake, not as a means to a vocation, and given the chance I would impose that value system on everyone!
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06-20-2009, 11:33 PM	#13
Vagrant Core Member [155%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 6,222	If somebody just wants to inform me about their beliefs, fine, whatever. I don't particularly care. If you present your beliefs in a cohesive and sensible manner, I may actually listen. It's when you start trying to persuade me that my beliefs are incorrect, or that I should do things according to your rules that I start to get a bit pissy. I decide what to do with my own life, not you.
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06-21-2009, 04:00 AM	#14
ThirdEye New Member [01%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 67	I used to have a lot of fun turning the worlds of the self-righteous upside down. I avoid it if I can nowadays though, if just for the sheer fact that I have better things to do. I have absolutely no problem shooting down the more tenacious ones, though.
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06-21-2009, 04:28 AM	#15
Obsidean Member [03%] MBTI: INTp Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 136	I like when people do this to me but don't get me wrong its still annoying
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06-21-2009, 08:34 PM	#16
llBradll Veteran Member [73%] MBTI: XNTj Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 2,920	That's life. Independent thought needs to be encourage a lot more, rather than having people who will just say this is right and this is wrong.
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06-21-2009, 09:14 PM	#17
Monte314 Core Member [407%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 16,303	Yes. Other people who try to exercise freedom of speech should be horse-whipped.
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06-21-2009, 09:24 PM	#18
rickster Member [42%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 1,689	People imposing their beliefs and values on others is reprehensible. I believe this wholeheartedly; to the point that when I'm President Of The World I will prohibit this practice, and enforce it at gunpoint. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
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06-22-2009, 02:30 AM	#20
The Fury Member [09%] MBTI: INTP Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 384	I dislike people who attempt to impose their own beliefs on me but luckily I haven't run into too many in my lifetime. I usually just ignore them when I do.
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06-22-2009, 03:07 AM	#21
Kris Member [27%] MBTI: ENTP Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,116	People all have a reason why they feel the need to express their beliefs to another, and in some cases attempt to change the beliefs of another. I'm positive everyone has situations where they would feel justified in doing this, the problem arises when the person on the receiving end doesn't agree with the justification held by the speaker. For some people that situation might be the potential endangerment of person(s) they care about. For some religious people, its obviously the fate of you're soul or whatever. I actually think the people who have no real personal justification and just want everyone to hold their views are in the minority. As irritating as it can be to be on the receiving end, I try to keep an open mind about what motivates people to do the things they do. That said, if someone is too pushy I will push back pretty hard.
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06-22-2009, 05:32 AM	#22
Alex Member [05%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 229	Kris - I definitely see what you're saying, and I like your point of view on the matter. It isn't that I never see that people have very specific reasons for at times pushing their views on others, your example of the religious being exactly the one I'd choose. I do realize that, in their minds, you simply don't understand the "gift" or "privilege" you've rejected, and that it could result in something terrible befalling you. I guess, for me, it's not the idea that they think they're "the correct one" - that their views are so exclusively right that they feel it's almost a duty to inform everyone else they're "wrong". Instead, it's the idea that they think other people haven't thought about their alternative - that we don't see as they do because we simply lack understanding in an academic sense. I get the impression from most of them that, if we simply had it broken down into its basic pieces and parts and REALLY understood, then we'd see things exactly the way they do. I think that's what really hacks me off about it; when it comes to proselytizing Christians, it's really hard to make THEM understand that, yes, I know what Jesus supposedly did "for me" (I also know the very convoluted and rather F'd up circumstances surrounding WHY he even had to do it) and no, I don't care. They don't get that I realize they see it as a gift, and that by their mythology, it IS a gift - and they don't get that I reject it. Not just on the grounds that I have never seen any concrete proof of their assertions (I'm simply not equipped for "faith"), but because I've read their interpretation of what they think God and Jesus and the universe is, in the Bible, and I think the entire story is abhorrent. Basically, if I were ever truly PROVEN wrong, and there WAS actually a God, I'd still reject it because I've read his biography, and it makes him look like a tw@t. This could apply to several other areas of life (politics, philosophy, etc), but this is usually the one I find myself on the receiving end of when others attempt to push. I do try to understand where they're coming from, but I often find that they judge me as being ignorant and uninformed - I couldn't POSSIBLY know their doctrine intricately (I do) and not accept it (I don't).
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06-22-2009, 06:04 AM	#23
encrypted New Member [01%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 27	i just start doing my weirdo intj thing where i start breaking down their possible motives to gain acceptance from someone who probably lacks respect for them in the first place or something to freak em out and make them feel vulnerable.. they usually never come back to me with that "you should" business after that lol
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06-22-2009, 06:34 AM	#25
smashy Member [17%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 685	I can't believe someone would be so stupid to try to impose their beliefs on me, it would be crushed. I think discussing different points of view is one thing, imposing own beliefs on other person is a total lack of respect and I don't tolerate this by any means, especially because I don't follow "common beliefs" neither I care about others beliefs.
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