[curiousgeorge01]

I read an article in the New York Times during the middle of this recession. I don't have the exact article, but the basic gist of the article was about women who were going out with investment bankers. According to these women, they went out with these men because they were confident lions and had a take charge attitude. However, once they lost their jobs and their paychecks, the women found the men pathetic and broke up with them because they started staying in instead of ordering food, downgraded to smaller, less expensive apartments etc. Asked if it was the money that made the women like the men the comment for all of them was something akin to "No, it was the confidence."

I didn't understand that comment, for these men, aren't money and their confidence inexorably linked so in fact the women were in love with the money? You don't see them dating confident artists. The other question is, what do women define as confidence (cocky, arrogance, knowledge etc) and is that the ultimate deciding factor on whether a woman likes a man?

What do you think?

Edit: Are money and confidence inexorably linked? I realized I made a grammar boo boo

[Prunesquallor]

You've never seen a woman date an artist?

[ATCGs]

I think this isn't a universal thing. It is almost certainly true that for some men, they are as confident as the size of their bank account, and for others, the amount of money makes no difference.

I'm a poor grad student, but I'm way smarter than a whole lot of people.

[llBradll]

I think that money gave the people that you're talking about a false sense of confidence. When it went away so did the confidence. So you could say that money and a false sense of confidence are linked.

[rara avis]

Some people base important intangibles on shallow tangible things. Men and women.

If a person has made it their goal in life to be wealthy in any respect, and they fail or succeed spectacularly in that, I can see where it would certainly affect their confidence.

A lot of self-worth is tied in with your evaluation of your personal success and of your ability to be successful. Quantity of cash is one of the classic measures of at least one kind of success.


I have to say, I don't think financial wealth is entirely empty and shallow. It just needs to be kept balanced with other areas in life.

[Dave C C]

No.

[curiousgeorge01]

	Originally Posted by Prunesquallor To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	You've never seen a woman date an artist?

I have, but I'm referring to the women above not dating artists. They claim that it wasn't wealth that deterred them it was the confidence level.

[Prunesquallor]

	Originally Posted by curiousgeorge01 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I have, but I'm referring to the women above not dating artists. They claim that it wasn't wealth that deterred them it was the confidence level.

And you know for certain that these women never dated artists? Why?

[curiousgeorge01]

	Originally Posted by llBradll To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I think that money gave the people that you're talking about a false sense of confidence. When it went away so did the confidence. So you could say that money and a false sense of confidence are linked.

Would you say money=confidence in the above case then?

I guess I should clarify. In essence, I'm actually asking a few questions:

1.A woman breaks up with a man because she claims that the confidence was gone once the money is. While it is true that men feel more secure with have more money and therefore are more confident, IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE doesn't confidence=money?

2. Is money and confidence linked for men (the majority anyway)? As a man, I do feel more confident when I wear better clothing, can afford to go out more often, and buy whatever I want and that happiness shows. I do find that being able to provide IS a main confidence driver for men. Do you think this is not true?

3. What do women find confident? Is it when a man is a master of his field? Money? When he laughs in the face of death? Arrogant? A rebel? A criminal? All the above?? And do women often confuse confidence for insecurity (many defiant people are insecure with themselves)?

Sorry that story I put up made me think of all these questions, answer whichever!

[The Maelstrom]

This seems like a case of self-worth vs self-esteem. Self-worth being how you view your own worth as a person and self-esteem being how you perceive others view your worth as a person.

If those men had more self-esteem than self-worth, it is very likely they attributed more importance to the greater of the two. When the outside factors that support self-esteem crumble aka money, status, physical beauty, etc... self-worth is the last remaining support.

With low self-worth and low-self esteem (clearly altered by a large loss of a contributing factor) confidence is low.

What you could say happened is that the women were indeed attracted to the mens' confidence, however that confidence was shattered by outside forces and they had no other means to back up their sense of worth to themselves and others. Ergo, no confidence in themselves.

This is why I (and probably most people on this forum, just a hunch
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) believe that your self-worth is more important in the long run. Self-esteem does make one feel good, but it can change without warning at times. Your self-worth is internal and leaves you with a greater responsibility and control over your own sense overall worth.

That's not to say the two traits are in opposition of each other. I simply view it as a tendency to favor the one that a person is most used to/suited to, etc... Ideally one would try to have both in balance so as when one falters, the other can help alleviate the pressure and mend confidence and our sense of worth.

[Stratego]

I did a little searching in one of our news databases to see if I could find this article or something like it--no luck.

But, I'd like to say that, while I'm not a man, merely a passionate admirer of men, I think that there are several arenas in which men can build/demonstrate confidence: (yes, the financial) but also the physical (bodybuilding, etc); mental (academia); sexual (being a great lover or seducer); and social.

A confident man makes almost any occupation and situation sexy, attractive or interesting. Several of the forum members here have more humble employment, but what they are as men sets them above and beyond such materilistic standards. For me, that's a man like Johnathan Brewer.

And without knowing which article you're citing, the women seem to be lying when they say they're going out with these men because they're confident. Nope. It's money and they know it.

[compubomb]

All the women that i've met atleast where i live, in the Inland Empire (Riverside County, CA) seem to be insanely obsessed with wealth. If you don't drive a new/well maintained auto-mobile, if you don't have a well paying job, if you don't have (list here...) then you aren't part of their "group of available men". Even when I was going to a community college, the women were incredibly shallow, very uninterested in anything un-music/fashion/sports related. But women who go out with men who are rich, the only way you can tell what is important to them is ask how long have you been married and did you marry your husband before or after he became rich. This is not a fairy tale world, women who hook up with rich men only go out with rich men because of the size of their pocket book and the material possessions which come with such wealth. These are women who more than likely were treated by their fathers are "little ms. princess" and were never forced to grow up and learn a person is worth more than their wealth. But men on the same token often times don't want to marry unless they feel financially stable in their lives to the point in which they feel they can support a friendly family environment. (take what i say with a gain of salt please) I'm not perfect and my opinions are definitely smelly to many.

[llBradll]

Originally Posted by curiousgeorge01 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

( Show Spoiler ) Would you say money=confidence in the above case then? I guess I should clarify. In essence, I'm actually asking a few questions: 1.A woman breaks up with a man because she claims that the confidence was gone once the money is. While it is true that men feel more secure with have more money and therefore are more confident, IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE doesn't confidence=money? 2. Is money and confidence linked for men (the majority anyway)? As a man, I do feel more confident when I wear better clothing, can afford to go out more often, and buy whatever I want and that happiness shows. I do find that being able to provide IS a main confidence driver for men. Do you think this is not true? 3. What do women find confident? Is it when a man is a master of his field? Money? When he laughs in the face of death? Arrogant? A rebel? A criminal? All the above?? And do women often confuse confidence for insecurity (many defiant people are insecure with themselves)? Sorry that story I put up made me think of all these questions, answer whichever!

1A- In those cases money created false confidence or confidence that was only existant as long as the money was there. They felt that their money equalled power so when the money went away so did the confidence.

2A- While I feel better in nicer clothing and like to be able to provide, they don't give me confidence. Clothing is unrelated to my confidence entirely, but being able to provide makes me feel better. I think it gives me satisfaction more than confidence. My confidence is knowing that I can do whatever I want.

3A- I think the best way to be considered confident by women is knowing what you want and going and getting it. A sort of doing your own thing and doing what it takes to get what you want.

[PeterIMC]

Originally Posted by curiousgeorge01 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I read an article in the New York Times during the middle of this recession. I don't have the exact article, but the basic gist of the article was about women who were going out with investment bankers. According to these women, they went out with these men because they were confident lions and had a take charge attitude. However, once they lost their jobs and their paychecks, the women found the men pathetic and broke up with them because they started staying in instead of ordering food, downgraded to smaller, less expensive apartments etc. Asked if it was the money that made the women like the men the comment for all of them was something akin to "No, it was the confidence." I didn't understand that comment, for these men, aren't money and their confidence inexorably linked so in fact the women were in love with the money? You don't see them dating confident artists. The other question is, what do women define as confidence (cocky, arrogance, knowledge etc) and is that the ultimate deciding factor on whether a woman likes a man? What do you think? Edit: Are money and confidence inexorably linked? I realized I made a grammar boo boo

Putting this in an overly generalized way:
You´re making the mistake that women want money. They don't. They want men to show off with as they use the status of the man they´re with as a sign of their own status. This status is visible mostly through the man's confidence.

In my experience, being indecisive is the biggest turn off for women.

[LionsPride]

	Originally Posted by curiousgeorge01 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	1.A woman breaks up with a man because she claims that the confidence was gone once the money is. While it is true that men feel more secure with have more money and therefore are more confident, IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE doesn't confidence=money?

I think this is an oversimplification. It isn't that money equaled confidence. As The Maelstrom eloquently said, it was how the men were judging their self worth. In these cases, if the money came back, they may not suddenly bounce back to the person that they were. They may have begun to question their ability to provide or the security of their lives. Often confidence requires faith in yourself to triumph. If they have doubts, due to the loss in money, it may be hard for them to regain their confidence. So no, it's not a simple equation of money = confidence. There are a number of variables in between and the confidence being lost at the same time as the money is related, but not an equivalent.

	Originally Posted by curiousgeorge01 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	2. Is money and confidence linked for men (the majority anyway)? As a man, I do feel more confident when I wear better clothing, can afford to go out more often, and buy whatever I want and that happiness shows. I do find that being able to provide IS a main confidence driver for men. Do you think this is not true?

For some men, being able to provide for their families is one of the ways that they compete, in their minds, with other men. For others, they may have instilled that being a good provider is part of what it is to be a 'man'. But confidence can be tied to a number of attributes that a person values. I have seen men that were confident because they were attractive, others because they viewed themselves as being the most intelligent in the room, still others by the number of women they dated or their athletic prowess. I think money and power are popular ways men rank their self worth, but they are hardly the only ones.

	Originally Posted by curiousgeorge01 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	3. What do women find confident? Is it when a man is a master of his field? Money? When he laughs in the face of death? Arrogant? A rebel? A criminal? All the above?? And do women often confuse confidence for insecurity (many defiant people are insecure with themselves)?

The truth is women will find men confident based on how THE INDIVIDUAL WOMAN values a man's worth. How he values his own worth isn't the overriding factor. For example, let's pretend that a particular women values men by their ability to provide for her. She meet a man who is confident in his intelligence. Chances are she is going to roll her eyes and think "Ugh, he's pretty cocky for a guy who only makes grad student money". If she then runs into a guy who is confident about his looks she may think "Ugh, come talk to me when you have a job, loser". So, confidence is really only received appropriately when the women thinks it's something that is worth being confident about. Now this is just one example, I'm sure there are women who find men who are confident in their intelligence to be attractive, others may value men who are assured of their prowess with women. There could also be women who like men that are confident in handling children, confident in their job, confident in sports, confident in social settings, and so on. The key is that the confidence only matters if she values that trait, otherwise are just labeled cocky, arrogant, immature etc. So, if you are confident in your ability to provide, it is only going to be received appropriately by women who also value this ability, but there are no overriding traits that all women will appreciate.

In regards to why the women didn't date confidence artists, it's as I stated above, they value confidence as it relates to their own values. Con artists may not come across as providers or confident in being able to look after their families. In the case of the men who lost money, the loss of money may have shaken their confidence in areas the women valued that wasn't directly related to money. Some of the women may have valued the men's confidence in social settings, but when the men lost their money, they stopped going out and the man didn't act like he owned the place anymore.

[The Maelstrom]

	Originally Posted by LionsPride To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	The key is that the confidence only matters if she values that trait, otherwise are just labeled cocky, arrogant, immature etc.

I kind of agree with this statement but I still don't think it addresses everything.

Trying to formulate my thoughts I can only think of saying this right now:

Its not unlikely or entirely uncommon for people to fall for people that are not "their type". Their type would rely heavily on the above quoted statement.

Why would anyone fall for a person who isn't their type? Sure there could be a myriad of reasons but I still find confidence would play a significant role. I think it has to do with individual perceptions of overall confidence. That said, a person's value of a trait clearly influences this perception, but being aware of this how do some people still find themselves attracted to their non-types?

My sense of this is that specific traits play more of a surface or introductory role than does an envisioned deeper package brought on by an overall confidence.

lol, did that make sense?

[LionsPride]

	Originally Posted by The Maelstrom To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Its not unlikely or entirely uncommon for people to fall for people that are not "their type". Their type would rely heavily on the above quoted statement. My sense of this is that specific traits play more of a surface or introductory role than does an envisioned deeper package brought on by an overall confidence.

True, but there may be a disconnect between what the man values that makes him confident and what the woman values.

If the man valued his good looks and this made him confident, that confidence may be shown in social situations where he likes to be front and centre in the discussion, because he thinks he looks good and therefore people will like him. A woman he meets may not value his looks, but she values his ability to wander into any party, confident that others will like him. So, it might be true that the woman is dating a man that is "not her type" ie. a man who values his looks, because she usually goes for the comedian type, but essentially the value is still there.

I don't really subscribe to "types" much. I think that if a person has a "type" it's more related to something they feel comfortable with so they don't have to learn a new type of relationship. Kind of like fishing on the same part of the river with the same lure and jigging the same way and thinking that this time I'll catch something different. They have to move out of their own comfort zone to find a different type and in cases where people switch types, it might be that opportunity pointed them in a new direction and they were finally open to seeing it.

[BatsintheBelfry]

I think the possession of money brought a change in the man that made him appear to himself to be more powerful, confident, 'successful' etc. So naturally when the money was gone, his views of himself changed and hence the inner crisis that brought about the change in his lifestyle and personality. But this shouldn't be too surprising, this mentality is viewed everywhere. Another example is body-building. Go to a gym, and 9/10 guys and gals there aren't taking a sport, the physical exercise is not a necessity, so why do they do it? They won't admit it, but it's because they need to do it to feel good about themselves.

So, when the investment bankers or whomever lost their money, they lost their self-confidence which was at least one trait of their identity of who they believed themselves to be as a person. So it's like they lost a part of themselves when the money disappeared.

In Conclusion, superficially you can see it as the girls were attracted to the guys money, but in reality (beneath the surface), they were attracted to the aura of the guy, which left the guy when the money disappeared.

The whole thing is very shallow and ridiculously stupid however you see it though.

Edit: Oh lol didn't see your direct question. No, money and confidence aren't directly related ALWAYS, but they usually do have that correlation with people that believe money has more value then it actually really does (which is most of humanity, to most people the purpose of their lives are to hoard moar and moar money (and I say this because the accumulation of more money is the reason for them waking up and doing their thing every day), they've turned money into a living thing when it is really just nothing (inanimate, it shouldn't have any life) if that makes any sense i.e. it's like the money is alive because it has such a significant presence for most people).

The money is more real then they are which sounds contradictory because money should be inanimate and it can't 'think and feel', but if that's true, then why does money have such an effect on a human being (who presumably is 'alive') that this inanimate object could influence and manipulate the human beings own identity of himself?

[JohnDoe]

All I can say is that the times I've had women really blatently hit on me or ask me out were while I was having very major successes at work (not necessarily that paid well either). Noting that none of these people knew even what I was working on, so that blows that theory out of the water. Its confidence, not money. However its not an accident that people with money are confident. Confidence draws money, not the other way around.

[BatsintheBelfry]

@JohnDoe

Totally agree with you, except for the last line, didn't understand. Shouldn't it be the other way around? That is, it is the money that effected the boost in confidence? Hence, when the money disappeared, the confidence was significantly diminished to become apparent to other people. If it was the other way around, and if confidence brought about (drawed) money, it would be inexplicable why he lost any money since he would have been confident.

[JohnDoe]

Originally Posted by BatsintheBelfry To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

@JohnDoe Totally agree with you, except for the last line, didn't understand. Shouldn't it be the other way around? That is, it is the money that effected the boost in confidence? Hence, when the money disappeared, the confidence was significantly diminished to become apparent to other people. If it was the other way around, and if confidence brought about (drawed) money, it would be inexplicable why he lost any money since he would have been confident.

No, I'm saying confidence brings money. People who stay confident in rough times bounce back fairly quickly. If someone laid off uses the opportunity to start a consulting firm he has wanted to start for years, then he will probably do just fine and may even end up making significantly more money, and his girlfriend who was attracted to his confidence will stay with him. If he just bemoans how the financial industry is dieing and gives up, who the hell would want to be around that?

[BatsintheBelfry]

@JohnDoe

Ok, I understand you and can agree with you, for that particular example that you gave.. But as to whether confidence brings money or vice-versa, it really just depends on the particular example and the type of person involved.

As for OP, clearly the money had brought about the confidence and not the other way around. If confidence brought money then I don't see how they would have lost money, but if you believe I'm being silly here because there are many other external factors that could contribute to the loss or gain of money besides confidence, even so, the investment bankers definitely should not have had a diminishment in confidence regardless of whether or not the money disappeared. The confidence shouldn't have been dependent on the money, if 'confidence draws money'. But since it was, I think that money drawed the confidence.

[curiousgeorge01]

Originally Posted by BatsintheBelfry To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Edit: Oh lol didn't see your direct question. No, money and confidence aren't directly related ALWAYS, but they usually do have that correlation with people that believe money has more value then it actually really does (which is most of humanity, to most people the purpose of their lives are to hoard moar and moar money (and I say this because the accumulation of more money is the reason for them waking up and doing their thing every day), they've turned money into a living thing when it is really just nothing (inanimate, it shouldn't have any life) if that makes any sense i.e. it's like the money is alive because it has such a significant presence for most people). The money is more real then they are which sounds contradictory because money should be inanimate and it can't 'think and feel', but if that's true, then why does money have such an effect on a human being (who presumably is 'alive') that this inanimate object could influence and manipulate the human beings own identity of himself?

No biggie. I actually didn't realize how multi-segmented the question would be until I wrote the story and posted it. I was like oh wait...this article actually addresses a few issues so any answer to any of the questions would've been fine.

The reason I said IN THAT PARTICULAR CASE above is because I feel like with some people, money is really all that had in life, those investment bankers for example. To get that sort of job, you really have to have no life (they work hours and hours) but they pay you handsomely for it. The way I look at it, if those men put in those hours without getting paid that amount, the women would've have come to them (I'm assuming they have almost no other talents or interests since the job takes up so many hours I'll explain this assumption further below) and therefore their confidence was equated with money.

I also read in another article that people who come into huge wads of cash tend to blow it (athletes, lottery winners, celebrities) and that's why women (I assume the gold diggers here) target the new investment bankers. The men who attract these women really think it has to do with their own greatness when in reality women use their ego to trap them.

Also, I know most men (because of cultural norms) link their confidence for being able to be a provider. Money, therefore, I feel is a big part of a male's identity. I also think that's partially why men are more risky with their money, they want that bigger payoff to boost their self-esteem.

[Tyrant Soup]

	Originally Posted by curiousgeorge01 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	However, once they lost their jobs and their paychecks, the women found the men pathetic and broke up with them because they started staying in instead of ordering food, downgraded to smaller, less expensive apartments etc. Asked if it was the money that made the women like the men the comment for all of them was something akin to "No, it was the confidence."

--Not eating out (presumably at an obscenely expensive restaurant)
--Live in a less expensive apartment

How are those items signs of confidence? Those women are gold diggers. Of course they're not going to say " I dumped him because without the cash, my one reason for dating him is gone". They deserve each other.

[curiousgeorge01]

	Originally Posted by Tyrant Soup To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	--Not eating out (presumably at an obscenely expensive restaurant) --Live in a less expensive apartment How are those items signs of confidence? Those women are gold diggers. Of course they're not going to say " I dumped him because without the cash, my one reason for dating him is gone". They deserve each other.

Well yea that may be the case. The other thing it may be is that the men defined their confidence through money so when they stopped spending so much, the MEN's confidence went down.


I agree with you but I'm just playing devil's advocate though.