[spiritdetectivegirl]

Know any artists that don't depict women as toothpicks with watermelons for breasts?


I know, I know. Women are bombarded with unrealistic images everyday in the media; eventually you tend to just ignore and tune it out.

So what or who brought this on?
I'll tell you who it was.

Power Girl.

Yes Power Girl from DC comics. Kara Starr, named Superman's cousin, Supergirl's cloned twin and all other possibilities in between. But that's irrelevant. What is relevant is her bust to body ratio. Some artists tone it down, some go so far as to pronounce her buxom hooters to the likeness of hot air balloons.

I'm an artist, and I love comic books/manga/and the like as much as the next nerdy girl, so you can imagine how vital it is to me that there's quality in this medium. What I'm seeking is inspiration and the feeling of not forcing myself to not be repulsed just to read a comic. I nit-pick and tear appart everything that stands in my way. The best complement you can get from me? I ignore the faults and enjoy the story. But that's becoming harder to do because she's not the only one. Oh, no, 'Jugs' is'nt the only female superheroine who is well endowed.

So this thread will be to introduce and post pictures of realistically drawn women, and men if you want. They've gotten the short end of the stick too, though it's not nearly as bad as us female's share.

I'm just at the point were I'd rather scratch my own eyes out with dull sporks than see another heroine of her likeness without some verity inbetween. I'll still read comics with 'Jugs' in them, just not without something to fall back on. Also any advice/information would be a welcomed repreave.

[fatkattykat]

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The main character is actually rather busty, but it deals with a lot of the real issues of being busty (i.e.not being able to find bras that fit). Also depicts characters of different body types, and body image is a small sub-theme in this webcomic.

[Kisai]

I don't mind female characters being depicted as busty at all. Inconstitent boob morphology bugs me though.


This is really bad in some anime, like Burst Angel or Chrono Cross, where if a busty heroine is placed next to the busty villainess, the heroine's boobs will shrink. If the busty heroine is in a sexual situation, her boobs will grow. In a flashback, I didn't recognize Meg from Burst Angel , because her cup size shrank to a B. Burst Angel really pissed me off when they shoehorned Sei into a bikini and blew up her breasts 3 cup sizes.

[DanteFalling]

I like your post. Are you only looking for comic characters? Which types are you most wanting?


I have a problem with this because I think both our "ideal" and our "reality" are BOTH wrong.

The average 20yr old+ woman's BMI in the U.S. is about 28.3 (I'm using the average height as the 2003 to 2006 measured height of 162.2 cm [5' 3.8"], and the average weight as the 1999 to 2002 measured weight of about 164 lbs {although these stats are from more than a decade ago, so are even worse}).

Our ideal is a 16 year old female model who is 5'10" and weighs 110 lbs. This is a young girl who is taller than the average American male and who has a bmi of 15.8.

So, we're fatter than we should be to be healthy, and our goal is skinnier than it should be to be healthy. There are small minorities of people in both groups who naturally gravitate to these extremes genetically, but they are not "healthy" simply because of their excessive or insufficient weight.

That said, BMI is NOT an accurate measure of total health. If all of those women with the high BMIs were fit, kept their waist-to-hip ratio down, ate well, exercised moderately everyday and came from families with higher BMIs, they aren't as bad off as an anorectic.


All of that long winded dribble was to form the background to my idea that we shouldn't draw all women realistically as they are now nor as we hope they'd never be (grossly skeletal with implants). Instead, we should aim for a healthy medium for most artwork. There are obvious reasons to represent the unhealthy, but I'm talking specifically about work that is to be lauded as the ideal or as healthy.

I think so many of those "Love your body the way it is campaigns are actually harmful." There is something wonderful about being grateful for your body. But to then simply declare it okay arbitrarily bothers me. They sometimes act as if we should say all thin women with larger than average breasts are fake/anorectic, etc. And that all overweight women are simply "curvy." They're not. Some are, some aren't. What matters most in all cases is the health and well-being of the person, not messed up over-exaggerated ideals nor simple complacency and redefining of normal or current average to mean healthy.

Oddly enough, even though she wears almost no clothing on the front, Molotov Cocktease, is actually a believable svelte (medium-busted) heroine/archenemy.

It seems as if different artists really do balloon the chest out of pretty much any female character. I distinctly remember Molotov having a believable though rare body type, but half of the drawings by fans gave her saline and silicone injections.


Mommy, this is what I want to look like when I grow up:
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[eternaltriangle]

BMI is a particularly bad measure for comic book superheroes because many of them are muscular. The incredible hulk, for instance, weighs 800-1000 lbs and is 7-8 feet tall. His BMI is therefore between 61 and 100.

Female superheroes may have an opposite problem. That is, they may be severely underweight, but mislabeled as healthy because of their large breasts and the added weight of muscle. For instance, Wonder Woman is about 5'11 and 135 lbs, putting her just barely in the healthy range. However, if 20 lbs of that is in her breasts, and if she was less muscular, she could easily weight as little as 100 lbs, which is severely underweight.

[DanteFalling]

Originally Posted by eternaltriangle To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

BMI is a particularly bad measure for comic book superheroes because many of them are muscular. The incredible hulk, for instance, weighs 800-1000 lbs and is 7-8 feet tall. His BMI is therefore between 61 and 100. Female superheroes may have an opposite problem. That is, they may be severely underweight, but mislabeled as healthy because of their large breasts and the added weight of muscle. For instance, Wonder Woman is about 5'11 and 135 lbs, putting her just barely in the healthy range. However, if 20 lbs of that is in her breasts, and if she was less muscular, she could easily weight as little as 100 lbs, which is severely underweight.

I agree. I think neck, chest, waist, hip, and wrist ratios are also a possible measurement for relative health.

I think the reason so many artists draw an extra large pack of inhuman breasts on top of the women is to reaffirm their "feminine" status, as muscles on women are looked down on.

[TheLastMohican]

	Originally Posted by DanteFalling To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Our ideal is a 16 year old female model who is 5'10" and weighs 110 lbs.

According to whom?

[spiritdetectivegirl]

You brought up many great points in your post DanteFalling (far more deep than I could muster), and I agree with it.

Basicly to answer your question I'd just like to see more definable characteristics in superheroines besides varing on 'hair color' or some other trife (Ex: Michael Turner's women.).

I'm just a bit starved, and after a few listless attempts to find something in my own wanderings I got fustrated and wondered what everyone's opinion was on the subject, and if any knew or would like to share artists who do vary in thier drawings.

But I did'nt just mean Comics perse. Like I enjoy Frank Frazetta's art and style while growing up mainly because I could relate to the women he drew, though scantly clad they may be. It was just refreshing to look at a piece of art work and say 'Hm, that looks like me in the nude.' It helped me feel not so out of place when I would get medialogged and feel like curling up into a ball of clothing so no one could see my 'unperfect' body.

Eternaltriangle also hit the nail on the head--I've seen many superhero dscriptions according to BMI and it's a crying shame.

I just wanted to rant and get it out of my system and have other people rant about it too. Because ranting is fun, and makes the world seem less bleek to me.


Oh, and by the way, the picture you posted was great.





spiritdetectivegirl added to this post, 8 minutes and 54 seconds later...

Originally Posted by Kisai To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I don't mind female characters being depicted as busty at all. Inconstitent boob morphology bugs me though. This is really bad in some anime, like Burst Angel or Chrono Cross, where if a busty heroine is placed next to the busty villainess, the heroine's boobs will shrink. If the busty heroine is in a sexual situation, her boobs will grow. In a flashback, I didn't recognize Meg from Burst Angel , because her cup size shrank to a B. Burst Angel really pissed me off when they shoehorned Sei into a bikini and blew up her breasts 3 cup sizes.

I agree with you here. And I've actually seen Burst Angel as well; could'nt stand it. It's as if they give women huge breasts to make them seem more 'interesting'. Like how Tite Kubo does with his women--if there's not three there's at least one female with a bust size far to ridiculous for her lithe frame. Ex: Orihime.

[Night Runner]

This isn't the most mainstream comic out there, but
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deals with this issue. One of the characters is a rather voluptuous ("curvy"?) young woman, while the other one is slender and described as a B-cup. The two of them discuss it in a few strips, too.
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[Shorgenfunkel]

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Yes, the females are still portrayed attractively (for a cartoon, that is). But the bust:body ratio isn't ridiculous, or close. Also, the least ectomorphic of them is the one that keeps getting pursued, so that ought to count for something in your eyes.

[curiousgeorge01]

Personally...I like comic, manga girls the way they're drawn! They're hot! LOL

Well if it was real..it wouldn't be called a fantasy.

[eternaltriangle]

I'll play devil's advocate here...

Would more realistic-looking women in comics sell though? What is striking about the market for comic books is that it is a real sausage fest, even by the standards of typical nerd activities. The market is also relatively young. That means two things... firstly, a lot of the women these guys are in contact with ARE 16 year old girls. Secondly, younger men may not be sufficiently comfortable with their sexuality to have non-standard preferences for women. Being attracted to overweight (yes comics feed unrealistic body images, but those unrealistic body images would exist regardless) women is the kind of thing likely to result in persecution by one's peers.

Indeed the two examples shown thus far reflect this: Girls with Slingshots is a web-comic that seems to be aimed at females. Likewise Questionable Content. If men continue to have unrealistic images of what women should feel like, a lot of the current problems are likely to persist.

A third kind of problem is that when you make a character fat, it can backfire. Affirmation of a stereotype that all women are like X is bad, but affirmation of negative stereotypes are problematic as well.

[The Maelstrom]

	Originally Posted by spiritdetectivegirl To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I know, I know. Women are bombarded with unrealistic images everyday in the media; eventually you tend to just ignore and tune it out. So what or who brought this on?

I blame the fashion industry. Think about it though...

If you can cut costs on clothes for toothpicks models who require less fabric (while still accentuating feminine physical characteristics), create a standard of beauty where less is more and when you sell said products charge MORE for something with less... you're making a killing.

One funny example I just thought of about disproportionate breasts on a character has got to be One Piece. Nami, a main character, starts off as an A or B and somehow within less than a year's worth of story time hits D's easy. It was just so blatant it was hilarious.

[Prunesquallor]

But don't you see? Fitting into those outfits is their superpower!

[Double Victory]

	Originally Posted by The Maelstrom To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I blame the fashion industry. Think about it though... If you can cut costs on clothes for toothpicks models who require less fabric (while still accentuating feminine physical characteristics), create a standard of beauty where less is more and when you sell said products charge MORE for something with less... you're making a killing.

You can't blame the fashion industry. It's a hell of a lot harder to find clothes for really skinny people than you might think unless you want to spend a fortune. I can't tell you how often I've run across a size small that is a thousand times too large for me.

[Shorgenfunkel]

Here's another webcomic with an unconventionally drawn female character.


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She's a geometric heart. Definitely an unrealistic body image, but nevertheless unconventional.

[Night Runner]

	Originally Posted by Double Victory To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	You can't blame the fashion industry. It's a hell of a lot harder to find clothes for really skinny people than you might think unless you want to spend a fortune. I can't tell you how often I've run across a size small that is a thousand times too large for me.

Indeed! Us skinnies might be the fashion industry's darlings, but simple clothes-shopping is a chore. Example: my pants size is 32x34, and it's impossible to find in Walmart, though sizes like 34x32 or even 40x32 are a lot more prevalent...

Originally Posted by eternaltriangle To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I'll play devil's advocate here... ( Show Spoiler ) Would more realistic-looking women in comics sell though? What is striking about the market for comic books is that it is a real sausage fest, even by the standards of typical nerd activities. The market is also relatively young. That means two things... firstly, a lot of the women these guys are in contact with ARE 16 year old girls. Secondly, younger men may not be sufficiently comfortable with their sexuality to have non-standard preferences for women. Being attracted to overweight (yes comics feed unrealistic body images, but those unrealistic body images would exist regardless) women is the kind of thing likely to result in persecution by one's peers. Indeed the two examples shown thus far reflect this: Girls with Slingshots is a web-comic that seems to be aimed at females. Likewise Questionable Content. If men continue to have unrealistic images of what women should feel like, a lot of the current problems are likely to persist. A third kind of problem is that when you make a character fat, it can backfire. Affirmation of a stereotype that all women are like X is bad, but affirmation of negative stereotypes are problematic as well.

Great points. I'd like to make a counter-point to the OP:
Know any artists that don't depict men as bodybuilders with six- (or eight- or twelve-) packs? It really is quite ridiculous. While it's true that some men are in that great shape, it's a small percentage of the population. Abercrombie&Fitch (to use a random company) ads are misleading in their overabundant portrayal and glorification of bodybuilders. I would hypothesize that being bombarded with unrealistic body images affects men as much as it does women, resulting in lower self-esteem and steroid abuse.

In a way, our society has reached a stalemate, a socio-economic catch-22: by glorifying difficult-to-achieve (and quite often Photoshop-altered) body types, we threaten the self-esteem of a relatively large part of our population. That results in (among other things) eating disorders and loss of productivity, while simultaneously stimulating the weight-loss industry with all of its miracle cures, dietary supplements and shows like The Biggest Loser.

A personal anecdote: one of my acquaintances is a genius-level psychology student. However, she is unable to pursue her research and personal growth due to her bulimic eating disorder she had developed at the age 14. Her irrational desire to achieve size 0 (the very fact that there is a size 0 seems irrational to me) has endangered her health, caused her to be hospitalized on numerous occasions, and prevented her from developing her intellectual potential...

[eternaltriangle]

	Originally Posted by Night Runner To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Indeed! Us skinnies might be the fashion industry's darlings, but simple clothes-shopping is a chore. Example: my pants size is 32x34, and it's impossible to find in Walmart, though sizes like 34x32 or even 40x32 are a lot more prevalent...

I always assumed that is because 32's are the most common (I typically wear 32x32) so people buy them quicker (I usually shop in the clearance aisle).

Additionally, it strikes me that the beneficiaries of fashion should be the fat more than the thin. People who are conventionally attractive will be conventionally attractive regardless of what they wear. People who are not, by contrast, have more to gain from figuring out fashion and makeup, etc. For instance, you can create the illusion of a waistline wherever you want, which makes you appear thinner (there are also some colours that help, as does layering).
Unfortunately, I think a lot of bigger or less attractive women don't get the memo - they see fashion models that look very different from them and opt out. Often they wear overly baggy clothing to "hide" themselves, not realizing that this makes them look fatter than they are.





eternaltriangle added to this post, 12 minutes and 3 seconds later...

Originally Posted by Night Runner To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Great points. I'd like to make a counter-point to the OP: Know any artists that don't depict men as bodybuilders with six- (or eight- or twelve-) packs? It really is quite ridiculous. While it's true that some men are in that great shape, it's a small percentage of the population. Abercrombie&Fitch (to use a random company) ads are misleading in their overabundant portrayal and glorification of bodybuilders. I would hypothesize that being bombarded with unrealistic body images affects men as much as it does women, resulting in lower self-esteem and steroid abuse.

Very true, though I think in practice men are less impacted than women. Firstly, men are more inclined to be visual people than women, and attraction follows that same pattern. Because women are competing among men, who are drawn to the visual, their looks are more important. The market for pornography, which plays a large part in producing unrealistic body images (among other things) is largely geared towards men. Secondly, men can be providers, whereas it is frowned upon for women to be the main providers of a household. Insofar as dating is a search for a mate, rich, ugly men can do fairly well, whereas rich, ugly women still have a hard time. So for each Abercrombie and Fitch ad, we have counterpoints of romantically successful unattractive (particularly relative to their wives) men in (to name a few)... Curb Your Enthusiasm, Fresh Prince of Bel Air, Bob Newhart, Family Guy (Peter), the Simpsons (Homer), King of Queen's and romantically successful average men in most sitcoms. Hollywood is less realistic, but less attractive men can still find a niche as "character actors" and be portrayed as desirable in a certain way. It is much harder to think of women being in that role.

[Double Victory]

Originally Posted by eternaltriangle To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I always assumed that is because 32's are the most common (I typically wear 32x32) so people buy them quicker (I usually shop in the clearance aisle). Additionally, it strikes me that the beneficiaries of fashion should be the fat more than the thin. People who are conventionally attractive will be conventionally attractive regardless of what they wear. People who are not, by contrast, have more to gain from figuring out fashion and makeup, etc. For instance, you can create the illusion of a waistline wherever you want, which makes you appear thinner (there are also some colours that help, as does layering). Unfortunately, I think a lot of bigger or less attractive women don't get the memo - they see fashion models that look very different from them and opt out. Often they wear overly baggy clothing to "hide" themselves, not realizing that this makes them look fatter than they are.

Or you're like my mom and you just don't understand which clothing types flatter which body types. Goodness gracious what would she do without me....

The smaller clothes go faster because they're harder to find and in this day and age there are an awful lot of little teen girls running around. The clothing mass producers just don't seem to realize this yet.... I could talk about fashion for hours, though. It's my art form of choice these days.

[eternaltriangle]

Originally Posted by Double Victory To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Or you're like my mom and you just don't understand which clothing types flatter which body types. Goodness gracious what would she do without me.... The smaller clothes go faster because they're harder to find and in this day and age there are an awful lot of little teen girls running around. The clothing mass producers just don't seem to realize this yet.... I could talk about fashion for hours, though. It's my art form of choice these days.

I generally eschewed it as an irrational activity, until I encountered the concept of colour seasons. That interested me and convinced me that there a science to it. Of course people that just follow fashion trends may end up with unflattering options. For instance, I would look crappy in the earth tone 70's (I am a winter). I also realized that people often do ask me if I got enough sleep (my eyes are naturally somewhat baggy, and dark, but I think my clothing choices amplified that). By dressing well I could look more attractive without changing my diet or exercising more - how could that be other than win-win?

[zibber]

I remember Jim Lee drawing some RIDICULOUS women back in the day. (Gen-X anyone?)

[eternaltriangle]

Oh and more on track with the thread, what about Robert Crumb? He was clearly into bigger women.


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[Double Victory]

Originally Posted by eternaltriangle To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I generally eschewed it as an irrational activity, until I encountered the concept of colour seasons. That interested me and convinced me that there a science to it. Of course people that just follow fashion trends may end up with unflattering options. For instance, I would look crappy in the earth tone 70's (I am a winter). I also realized that people often do ask me if I got enough sleep (my eyes are naturally somewhat baggy, and dark, but I think my clothing choices amplified that). By dressing well I could look more attractive without changing my diet or exercising more - how could that be other than win-win?

That's precisely the attitude people should have about fashion. I look good in dark, dusty, earth tones, the poofy princess should sleeves, deep, square necklines, etc, etc (basically all the really weird fashion options....) I follow the rules of what looks good on my body at all times, not what currently in style. When those ankle length tights came out I was absolutely horrified that so many women wore them.... it made them look like they were four feet tall. But that's where the art is in fashion--knowing what goes well on your body and being creative with it.

[spiritdetectivegirl]

	Originally Posted by eternaltriangle To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Oh and more on track with the thread, what about Robert Crumb? He was clearly into bigger women. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

My dad would enjoy those pictures, he likes Crumb a great deal--well that and he's mantra about women is "If it ain't thick it ain't right,"; but that's a whole diffirent matter.
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Shorgenfunkel thanks for the links; I'll explore them later.

Hm, this thread is starting to gear towards fashion. Heh, did'nt see that coming.

But I like what eternaltriangle and Double Victory are saying on the matter; I had to find out most of what I know about my body and what went well on it alone. So needless to say there was alot of pouting and sobbing over it in my younger years. You'd think they'd make this type of information more available to the general public--if they had the public in good intrest, which we know they don't half the time.

I also hate people who put celebrities on pedestals about loosing weight. It's all blanent lies that a 40 somthing can achive a playmate's body after having 3 children by just exercising and 'eating right'. By that logic we should all look like bikni gods & goddesses if we just "Did pilates and ate six small meals a day". Rubish. The turth of the matter is most celebs don't have the perfect body, and they work thier asses off to the point of it being a second life style just to look the way they do half of the time we see them. What's worng with just eating right and exercising just to be healthy? Exercising should not consitute to changing your dress size down into the single digits; I know that for my body type a size six anything would not be healthy for my compact frame. *sigh* But if they put my messurements into a drawing I'd look like a whale, when I'm most certaninly am not.

Guess that's were the 'Money making' theme comes into play.