Unwanted Social Acceptance Feelings

**MaleVolentworld** · 05-01-2009, 05:22 AM

I wonder if anyone else has this experience and/or has some opinion on the cause of it.

What I mean can be clarified with an example.

I went to a recruitment agency some years ago and had to fill out the usual paper work, do some tests and have an interview with the agency. As part of the interview they asked me questions directed toward my personality and specifically asked if I liked to go down to the pub with my mates.

I consciously do not value going to the pub with mates, but it is one of many cultural social values that are to be expected to be valued. So there was a clash between my consciously held view (dislike pub) and a subconscious view (which was social in origin and I accepted it at some point but not consciously), and I had a feeling that was something like shame or guilt, as if I should value going to the pub with friends. So in summary, I had a feeling that I should be accepted despite not valuing that particular activity, and this feeling was unwanted since it clashed with my conscious viewpoint.

I think it may be due to childhood whereby you do not have any values, so have to seek acceptance from those that know, accepting their values. So you are raised by parents and school teachers, either explicitly or implicitly, to value being accepted and find it very important.

A childhood example may be that it is important to share everything, you are taught this by parents and teachers and you comply since you have no values, you do this to seek acceptance and because it is considered good. You are praised when you comply and it makes you feel good. So essentially you are being taught a morality that seeks to promote acceptance because as a child it is the only way to learn, you just accept whatever the parent/teacher says as they know, and you don't.

Now when you grow up and become an adult you have the capacity to choose your own morality, you have knowledge and you decide by your own reason what is good, what is bad and how you should live your life. But these childhood values of social acceptance still remain deep within you, and when they clash with your new values you experience guilt/shame, but know that you shouldn't and find it difficult to remove this feeling since it was accepted a long time ago but not understood. No matter how much you reason and know that you should not feel guilt, you still do, since these childhood values were etched into your memory not as a logical understanding, but by a feeling, a feeling that it is good to comply and bad to not comply with them.

Other examples could be:
-It's good to have lots of friends. You feel guilty when someone asks how many friends you have, knowing you have little or none, yet you don't want lots of friends. You know you won't be accepted by them, you'd feel rejected, if you said you had no friends.
-It's good to sleep with lots of women. You don't want to sleep with lots of women, but you feel you have to in order to be accepted as a man.

I think this somewhat resembles Sigmund Freud's view in the sense that there is a clash between social values and your own internal values, as a result you feel an unpleasant emotion.

**dalidaisy** · 05-01-2009, 06:34 AM

I totally understand what you are saying. But, even as I child, I saw a lot of things that I was being told as illogical or unreasonable. I actively defied being forced into the stereotypes being presented by parents, teachers & peers. This led my parents to seek help for me. After many drugs & much conditioning, I was convinced that I needed to follow the social "norms" in order to fit in. It was made clear to me that it was good to be normal, so I tried to be what was expected of me.

I guess I did feel shame for thinking differently than other people, because I was constantly told how wrong it was. But, I could not stop the feelings of not belonging. In one way, I wanted so badly to fit in & be accepted & in another I just wanted to retreat & be myself. It's always been very hard to have these conflicting thoughts. Even as an adult, I've felt them. But, now, I have found that my only true happiness has come from accepting myself the way I am. I no longer want to fit in with society & have no shame in being myself.

Sure, people still give me a hard time for being different & it can be hard to deal with, but ultimately, I just don't care so much anymore. I do what I want when I want, without the shame or guilt I once felt. It's quite liberating.

**MaleVolentworld** · 05-01-2009, 07:25 AM

Do you know how you accomplished removing the shame? did you just tell yourself whenever you felt shame that you shouldn't because x,y,z, and eventually it went away?

**dalidaisy** · 05-01-2009, 07:44 AM

I determined that shame in being myself is illogical. I cannot help who I am at my base. After trying for most of my life, I came to this conclusion when I ultimately failed too many times to avoid it.

Being ashamed of something you have no control over serves no purpose. Stop viewing yourself through society's eyes. You have to change your perspective & lose the desire to please others at your own expense.

Being self-confident also helps. Some might be surprised to know that I used to have absolutely none, but it's true. I used to be a pitiful wreck of a person & I loathed myself (when I was trying to be something I'm not). I guess I finally just hit bottom & said enough.

Since then, I think what I want, regardless of what other people expect. I've built myself back up & I'm a strong, strange, self-confident woman who allows no one to cause her shame or guilt.

**MaleVolentworld** · 05-01-2009, 07:45 AM

Jealous
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**dalidaisy** · 05-01-2009, 07:59 AM

	Originally Posted by MaleVolentworld To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Jealous To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Don't be. I'm not special or different. Everyone has these issues, to different extents. You have to find your own way to get throught this life. You can either take the easy path that's been laid out for you by society, or you can take the road less travelled & carve your own path. Neither choice is wrong or right & people should not be looked down upon for their choice.

As judgers, I understand that it's hard for us not to criticize people who do not think like we do. But if you stop shaming other people & placing guilt on them, you will be able to free yourself from these trappings.

I know it's hard, as I've been in your place. I hope you don't have to get to my age before you realize that there's nothing to be ashamed of in being who you are...

**acyckowski** · 05-01-2009, 08:50 AM

Originally Posted by MaleVolentworld
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So there was a clash between my consciously held view (dislike pub) and a subconscious view (which was social in origin and I accepted it at some point but not consciously), and I had a feeling that was something like shame or guilt, as if I should value going to the pub with friends. So in summary, I had a feeling that I should be accepted despite not valuing that particular activity, and this feeling was unwanted since it clashed with my conscious viewpoint.

I have the same conflict about a lot of things, but don't feel any shame or guilt about it. Discomfort, yes.


	I think it may be due to childhood whereby you do not have any values, so have to seek acceptance from those that know, accepting their values. So you are raised by parents and school teachers, either explicitly or implicitly, to value being accepted and find it very important.

I don't think that's necessarily the case. Parents and school are certainly acting on the child, but the child is also acting on the parents and school. All three of my kids respond differently to the idea of acceptance...

My eldest is a little concerned about acceptance, but heavily values his own judgments to the point of open defiance. His lack of social acceptance is an ongoing issue, because even though he wants to be accepted, he also wants to dictate his own terms. He completely doesn't get or care to get (I'm not sure which) how far he can push things with his peers or adults.
My middle child loves people and people love her. A raised voice or harsh look will send her into an emotional flame-out. For her, we actually have to work on reducing the value she places on acceptance and toughen her up.
My youngest is a lot like her brother in that she's pretty much got things figured out and wants to do things her way, on her own. Unlike her brother, though, she prefers to lay low and stay out of conflict. Because she knows the limits of how hard she can push back, people write off her assertiveness with something like, "Oh, she's just a character."

Now when you grow up and become an adult you have the capacity to choose your own morality, you have knowledge and you decide by your own reason what is good, what is bad and how you should live your life. But these childhood values of social acceptance still remain deep within you, and when they clash with your new values you experience guilt/shame, but know that you shouldn't and find it difficult to remove this feeling since it was accepted a long time ago but not understood. No matter how much you reason and know that you should not feel guilt, you still do, since these childhood values were etched into your memory not as a logical understanding, but by a feeling, a feeling that it is good to comply and bad to not comply with them.

...

I think this somewhat resembles Sigmund Freud's view in the sense that there is a clash between social values and your own internal values, as a result you feel an unpleasant emotion.

The mechanics of the conflict seem sound, but I don't think Freud had it quite right. It seems that if there is a conflict between what you "choose" to value and what you were taught to value, you really haven't internalized your new value system. In other words, the conflict is between what you profess to believe and what you actually believe. I can see where this would lead to a profound sense of discomfort, reminiscent of guilt.

Your social environment can exacerbate or alleviate this conflict, but a lot of things that are labeled "social values" don't really hold up under scrutiny, as Western society is large and varied enough to support subcultures. If I was raised on a farm in rural Iowa, but view myself as an artsy/bohemian type, then by remaining on a farm in Iowa as an adult I have created my own conflict--I don't believe in artsy/bohemian enough to act on it and move to the Village. The conflict is not so much between society and me as it is a conflict between my thoughts and actions.

Back to your original example, it seems to me that you are acting on the value of compromise (I like my friends more than I dislike going to the pub) and yet consciously hold a value of being uncompromising (I am my own man and to hell with everybody else). I don't live in your mind, so I don't know, but given your level of self-study you ought to be able to resolve the conflict. Keep in mind that unlike the world of uncompromising heroes in fiction, the real world is messy and doesn't progress along a logical storyline to a neatly packaged ending. Compromise is unpleasant, sometimes enfuriating, but ultimately necessary.

**llBradll** · 05-01-2009, 06:47 PM

I'm kicking those things out right now, or trying to. It can be tough when everybody around you only likes to party and go to concerts, while you like to learn/improve yourself, have challenging discussions, etc.

Its really important to be the one running your life. If people around you run your life then you've got a lot of work to do.

	Originally Posted by MaleVolentworld To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Do you know how you accomplished removing the shame? did you just tell yourself whenever you felt shame that you shouldn't because x,y,z, and eventually it went away?

Remind yourself that you don't have to impress others. Accept that being yourself will bother others who are too weak to handle it. Last but not least, we all slip up, don't feel shame for everything, and forgive yourself.

Chemist · 05-01-2009, 06:58 PM

IMO learning to accept yourself can be very difficult to put it lightly... It is definitely something that is better done as early as possible. Once you define right and wrong for yourself and adjust your behaviors/belief systems/etc.. accordingly... you might find that you no longer care what others think or feel about you... and consequently I suspect you will feel a lot less shame... : )

**Ava** · 05-02-2009, 09:31 AM

I first started to pick up on this when I was about 13... my best friend at school had moved away and it's like I suddenly woke up and realized that all the other students thought I was really weird, and they weren't likely to ever be friends with me unless I managed to convince them that I was just like them. So I spent the rest of my school years trying to force myself into the box of normalcy both internally and externally... trying to convince myself, for instance, that it really did bother me to sit alone at lunch or not go out with friends on a Friday night when I knew deep down that what really bothered me was the fact that other people looked down on these things.

Sometime in college I decided that the whole thing was silly and I should just be true to the things I liked and didn't like, regardless of how many other people shared my opinion. Still working on that. The problem is that even after you convince yourself that, basically, it's ok to have different preferences than everyone else, you're still going to have to wait on everyone else to come to the same conclusion as well. So while I won't lie to people anymore about having spent the entire weekend sitting at home alone, I don't think they actually believe me when I tell them that I actually enjoy it - they're still looking at it through the filter of "well I wouldn't want to do that, so she must not really want to do that either, and she's just lying to cover it up".

05-01-2009, 05:22 AM	#1
MaleVolentworld Member [23%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 944	I wonder if anyone else has this experience and/or has some opinion on the cause of it. What I mean can be clarified with an example. I went to a recruitment agency some years ago and had to fill out the usual paper work, do some tests and have an interview with the agency. As part of the interview they asked me questions directed toward my personality and specifically asked if I liked to go down to the pub with my mates. I consciously do not value going to the pub with mates, but it is one of many cultural social values that are to be expected to be valued. So there was a clash between my consciously held view (dislike pub) and a subconscious view (which was social in origin and I accepted it at some point but not consciously), and I had a feeling that was something like shame or guilt, as if I should value going to the pub with friends. So in summary, I had a feeling that I should be accepted despite not valuing that particular activity, and this feeling was unwanted since it clashed with my conscious viewpoint. I think it may be due to childhood whereby you do not have any values, so have to seek acceptance from those that know, accepting their values. So you are raised by parents and school teachers, either explicitly or implicitly, to value being accepted and find it very important. A childhood example may be that it is important to share everything, you are taught this by parents and teachers and you comply since you have no values, you do this to seek acceptance and because it is considered good. You are praised when you comply and it makes you feel good. So essentially you are being taught a morality that seeks to promote acceptance because as a child it is the only way to learn, you just accept whatever the parent/teacher says as they know, and you don't. Now when you grow up and become an adult you have the capacity to choose your own morality, you have knowledge and you decide by your own reason what is good, what is bad and how you should live your life. But these childhood values of social acceptance still remain deep within you, and when they clash with your new values you experience guilt/shame, but know that you shouldn't and find it difficult to remove this feeling since it was accepted a long time ago but not understood. No matter how much you reason and know that you should not feel guilt, you still do, since these childhood values were etched into your memory not as a logical understanding, but by a feeling, a feeling that it is good to comply and bad to not comply with them. Other examples could be: -It's good to have lots of friends. You feel guilty when someone asks how many friends you have, knowing you have little or none, yet you don't want lots of friends. You know you won't be accepted by them, you'd feel rejected, if you said you had no friends. -It's good to sleep with lots of women. You don't want to sleep with lots of women, but you feel you have to in order to be accepted as a man. I think this somewhat resembles Sigmund Freud's view in the sense that there is a clash between social values and your own internal values, as a result you feel an unpleasant emotion.
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05-01-2009, 06:34 AM	#2
dalidaisy Core Member [136%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 5,479	I totally understand what you are saying. But, even as I child, I saw a lot of things that I was being told as illogical or unreasonable. I actively defied being forced into the stereotypes being presented by parents, teachers & peers. This led my parents to seek help for me. After many drugs & much conditioning, I was convinced that I needed to follow the social "norms" in order to fit in. It was made clear to me that it was good to be normal, so I tried to be what was expected of me. I guess I did feel shame for thinking differently than other people, because I was constantly told how wrong it was. But, I could not stop the feelings of not belonging. In one way, I wanted so badly to fit in & be accepted & in another I just wanted to retreat & be myself. It's always been very hard to have these conflicting thoughts. Even as an adult, I've felt them. But, now, I have found that my only true happiness has come from accepting myself the way I am. I no longer want to fit in with society & have no shame in being myself. Sure, people still give me a hard time for being different & it can be hard to deal with, but ultimately, I just don't care so much anymore. I do what I want when I want, without the shame or guilt I once felt. It's quite liberating.
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05-01-2009, 07:25 AM	#3
MaleVolentworld Member [23%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 944	Do you know how you accomplished removing the shame? did you just tell yourself whenever you felt shame that you shouldn't because x,y,z, and eventually it went away?
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05-01-2009, 07:44 AM	#4
dalidaisy Core Member [136%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 5,479	I determined that shame in being myself is illogical. I cannot help who I am at my base. After trying for most of my life, I came to this conclusion when I ultimately failed too many times to avoid it. Being ashamed of something you have no control over serves no purpose. Stop viewing yourself through society's eyes. You have to change your perspective & lose the desire to please others at your own expense. Being self-confident also helps. Some might be surprised to know that I used to have absolutely none, but it's true. I used to be a pitiful wreck of a person & I loathed myself (when I was trying to be something I'm not). I guess I finally just hit bottom & said enough. Since then, I think what I want, regardless of what other people expect. I've built myself back up & I'm a strong, strange, self-confident woman who allows no one to cause her shame or guilt.
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05-01-2009, 07:45 AM	#5
MaleVolentworld Member [23%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 944	Jealous To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
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05-01-2009, 06:58 PM	#9
Chemist Member [05%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 206	IMO learning to accept yourself can be very difficult to put it lightly... It is definitely something that is better done as early as possible. Once you define right and wrong for yourself and adjust your behaviors/belief systems/etc.. accordingly... you might find that you no longer care what others think or feel about you... and consequently I suspect you will feel a lot less shame... : )
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05-02-2009, 09:31 AM	#10
Ava New Member [01%] MBTI: INTJ Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 65	I first started to pick up on this when I was about 13... my best friend at school had moved away and it's like I suddenly woke up and realized that all the other students thought I was really weird, and they weren't likely to ever be friends with me unless I managed to convince them that I was just like them. So I spent the rest of my school years trying to force myself into the box of normalcy both internally and externally... trying to convince myself, for instance, that it really did bother me to sit alone at lunch or not go out with friends on a Friday night when I knew deep down that what really bothered me was the fact that other people looked down on these things. Sometime in college I decided that the whole thing was silly and I should just be true to the things I liked and didn't like, regardless of how many other people shared my opinion. Still working on that. The problem is that even after you convince yourself that, basically, it's ok to have different preferences than everyone else, you're still going to have to wait on everyone else to come to the same conclusion as well. So while I won't lie to people anymore about having spent the entire weekend sitting at home alone, I don't think they actually believe me when I tell them that I actually enjoy it - they're still looking at it through the filter of "well I wouldn't want to do that, so she must not really want to do that either, and she's just lying to cover it up".
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