[tadatanome]

My (probably now ex-) girlfriend says I am using my classification as an INTJ as an excuse to accept the way that I am and not make efforts to change. She of course refuses to take the test herself.

Some of the problems she believes I have to work on.
- My lack of sensitivity to her need for emotional support
- I place little importance on what she thinks of me
- I never really make sacrifices for the sake of other people

How much should we fight against our natures in order to maintain a love relationship?
For that matter - what is "love" for an INTJ?

[Kfbr]

We don't always have to hide behind classification and there's always room for improvement. I've had the same things brought up in relationships - distant, cold and blunt.

Love for me isn't the set of a romantic comedy with flowers and sappy music and rainbows coming out of my ass. I had it once, and I realize it only too late, but love for me was always looking forward to being with her and dropping whatever I was doing to be around her.

All the failed relationships since I grow tired of girls easily and would rather be working. Hindsight is 20/20 right?

Also, obligatory..

BABY DON'T HURT ME! DON'T HURT ME! NO MORE..

[WavesSootheMe]

Originally Posted by tadatanome To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

My (probably now ex-) girlfriend says I am using my classification as an INTJ as an excuse to accept the way that I am and not make efforts to change. She of course refuses to take the test herself. Some of the problems she believes I have to work on. - My lack of sensitivity to her need for emotional support - I place little importance on what she thinks of me - I never really make sacrifices for the sake of other people How much should we fight against our natures in order to maintain a love relationship? For that matter - what is "love" for an INTJ?

You've listed what she thinks you lack but what do you think you do well? How do you feel that you make your intentions clear? How do you show her that you care about her and value having her in your life in an intimate capacity?

[tadatanome]

	but what do you think you do well?

I turn up on time for dates. Does that count?

I live in Iran now but I grew up in the west so she likes that I'm not chauvinistic and i can cook. But in terms of her emotional needs and the needs of our relationship... I guess I'm dependable, I listen well when my own emotional needs don't get in the way. I try to give her confidence in herself and give her new ideas and new ways to look at her problems and issues.

	How do you feel that you make your intentions clear?

That's an ambiguous question. I'd like you to elaborate.

	How do you show her that you care about her and value having her in your life in an intimate capacity?

I'm a physically affectionate person. I like to hold hands, massage, hug. I've recently managed to adopt a pet name for her (after a year together)...

Caring about her for me means wanting her to be happy and helping her days to go by smoothly and enjoyably. Valuing her - well, these days I believe I could get on fine without her though there was a time when my love for her was 'hot', full of need, full of wishes for the future. Now I'm much cooler. I want her in my life but friendship is more important to me than constant companionship now.

Ideally I would like to see her and speak with her less but still feel like I could hold her hand and sometimes spend the night with her. This is of course the way I would like the relationship to be - to suit MY needs. And this is what irritates her. She feels that I'm not concerned about HER needs. And being accused of being selfish hurts - especially when there's some truth in it.





tadatanome added to this post, 4 minutes and 54 seconds later...

	All the failed relationships since I grow tired of girls easily and would rather be working.

I can relate very strongly to that. I've been practising a lot and getting better at it but talking to her on the telephone - talking on the phone PERIOD - often strikes me as a big waste of time. Problems don't get solved on the phone. Issues don't get resolved.

Are there any of you out there in relationships in which your partner gives you just the right amount of solitude?

[Sevs]

This always reminds me of :


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But basically i can tell when I am in love because if i really am in love than that person is the ONLY person i am willing to make sacrifices for / are sensitive towards and do care what she thinks of me so basically for me as INTJ love is when there is someone i feel / and treat different than anyone else.

[Hdier]

About the phone thing-it may not make much of a difference to you, but for some people who are a bit more emotional, it is easier to say something over the phone or in writing. Not all people can become as detached as we can when the time calls for it.

[MetalWounds]

I'm usually very unemotional and rational toward people. LatleybI've noticed a tell-tale indicator of when im falling for someone; I get an urge to do "bad" things. I do crazy and irrational things that make absolutly no sense in retrospect, and I can't remember why I did it or deciding to do it in the first place. Does this happen to anyone else out there?

[OneBadMother]

Yeah, I get a bit irrational and obsessive when I fall for someone. After a while it dissipates, though, and I'm left comfortably neutral again.

[PortInStorm]

When I'm in love, I'm willing to do unpleasant things for them, I care about not embarassing them, I feel badly when I've been selfish (and hey, even that I take the time to discern whether I have been selfish or not), I put myself out there and risk rejection, I seek them out (unlike most other people, except maybe a new friendship), I make a point to remember the little things (like what they said they'd do at work).

Be careful that you don't interpret your cooling off, your need for space, or some selfish acts as an innate flaw in the relationship. Selfishness, coolness and space inevitably creeps into any relationship (ie. when she told you your flaws, did she ask if there was anything she could change for you? Did she admit that she must bug you, or that there are some needs of hers that will undoubtably go unmet so you can be happy too? If not, then some selfishness is shown on her behalf too). You have to evaluate a relationship in terms of what will not fluctuate and change, most likely ie. the morals of the person, how they interact with your family, if they're looking for the same kinds of things out of life... etc. Emotions change, once an emergency happens, or you go without them for a while, they flare up again if love was ever there in the first place. It's called perceived intimacy, and the longer you're with someone, the more it goes down. But it's a completely different construct than REAL intimacy ie. you can feel distance but in reality be very close. Your perceived intimacy comes into line with real intimacy when you lose them, or go without them for a while etc. So maybe try a break, and if your real intimacy turns out to be as low as you FEEL, then.... This concept is from Sternberg, I believe, of the Sternberg love triangle (passion, commitment, intimacy are the three sides that, according to the length/amount of each component, create a differently-shaped triangle).

[StoneAgeINTJ]

Hey Metalwounds

Read Carl Yung on "shadow". As your persona emerges into a love relationship so your shadow, or dark side, matches that energy with an opposite energy. It's basic physics, embrace it

[MetalWounds]

	Originally Posted by StoneAgeINTJ To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Hey Metalwounds Read Carl Yung on "shadow". As your persona emerges into a love relationship so your shadow, or dark side, matches that energy with an opposite energy. It's basic physics, embrace it

hmm...that's quite interesting, and I'm defintly reading up on that. I defintly feel a "dark side" thats for sure, it's a little unnerving at times as well.

[The Rose]

Originally Posted by tadatanome To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

My (probably now ex-) girlfriend says I am using my classification as an INTJ as an excuse to accept the way that I am and not make efforts to change. She of course refuses to take the test herself. Some of the problems she believes I have to work on. - My lack of sensitivity to her need for emotional support - I place little importance on what she thinks of me - I never really make sacrifices for the sake of other people How much should we fight against our natures in order to maintain a love relationship? For that matter - what is "love" for an INTJ?

She's an SJ, right? ESFJ or ISFJ?


We should all learn to be less selfish and be more empathetic.

I hate jumping through all the hoops. I've done it before and I felt like I didn't know who I was anymore after so long of following rituals just to keep my friend happy.

[Ytterbium]

I have never been good when coming to feelings or showing them for that matter. I have loved females in my life without them knowing. I have never really spoke with them either, just kept distance, suppressing my feelings. I could not handle them because they were not logical, they were strange and frightening. It became more of a hostility what was really love at first sight. Even when females have shown interest in me, I have done nothing about it. Because I thought it can't be true. What shall I say what shall I do, was the questions I asked myself. I thought I will do it if I get a better opportunity. It never came, I never said anything. Somewhere inside of me all I wanted to do was to cuddle and to show that she was most precious thing in my life.
I'm an asshole.

[MetalWounds]

Originally Posted by Ytterbium To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I have never been good when coming to feelings or showing them for that matter. I have loved females in my life without them knowing. I have never really spoke with them either, just kept distance, suppressing my feelings. I could not handle them because they were not logical, they were strange and frightening. It became more of a hostility what was really love at first sight. Even when females have shown interest in me, I have done nothing about it. Because I thought it can't be true. What shall I say what shall I do, was the questions I asked myself. I thought I will do it if I get a better opportunity. It never came, I never said anything. Somewhere inside of me all I wanted to do was to cuddle and to show that she was most precious thing in my life. I'm an asshole.

I can't tell you how much I relate to that. That is almost an exact picture of the way I was before I joined the military. Now things are a little better but those feelings are defintly still there. Even as I fall in love with a woman part of me "falls in hate" with her at the same time. It's confusing but I've been able to adapt and overcome and find myself almost...almost being able to interact in what would be concidered a "normal" way with a woman that I begin falling for.

[Ytterbium]

Originally Posted by MetalWounds To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I can't tell you how much I relate to that. That is almost an exact picture of the way I was before I joined the military. Now things are a little better but those feelings are defintly still there. Even as I fall in love with a woman part of me "falls in hate" with her at the same time. It's confusing but I've been able to adapt and overcome and find myself almost...almost being able to interact in what would be concidered a "normal" way with a woman that I begin falling for.

I felt the same when I was a conscript. The few females there where "one of us", I didn't think of them as females at all. So I talked with them like any other person. Then we had common things to talk about too.

[tadatanome]

	Be careful that you don't interpret your cooling off, your need for space, or some selfish acts as an innate flaw in the relationship.

wise words but i think the damage may already have been done. It's ironic that, while at teh same time as suspecting myself of being overly selfish, I could have been so blind to my own need for recuperative solitude.

	It's called perceived intimacy, and the longer you're with someone, the more it goes down. But it's a completely different construct than REAL intimacy ie. you can feel distance but in reality be very close. Your perceived intimacy comes into line with real intimacy when you lose them, or go without them for a while etc..... This concept is from Sternberg, I believe

You're right about the importance of differentiating those factors in a relationship that are subject change as opposed to those factors that are more stable. But I am interested by this concept of "intimacy" as you relate it. Does anyone have any recommended online reading about Sternberg's theory? I live in Iran so specialist books are hard to get hold of.





tadatanome added to this post, 57 minutes and 26 seconds later...

	She's an SJ, right? ESFJ or ISFJ?

she refuses to take the test because she doesn't want me to classify her. But that's been helpful because it's forcing me to think for myself about what she could possibly be.

She's definitely IxFx - she might be INFP for her individuality, spirituality, creativity, ability as a listener, sense of justice.

But then again she could be ISFJ because of her sensitivity to the behaviour of others, powerful emotions and firm judgments of others.

	I felt like I didn't know who I was anymore after so long of following rituals just to keep my friend happy.

Now that I've spent a couple of days not speaking to her I feel that I am finding myself again a little bit. For the last couple of months I have for some reason been ignoring some of the things that were once so important to me. I started smoking again for instance, stopped doing yoga and taichi, started eating meat again.

I know it's only been a couple of days but now that I have allowed myself to stop worrying about what she thinks of me for not calling etc..., I am paying more attention to my own needs again and I feel like I am finding myself again.

"Following rituals", "jumping through hoops" - very apt descriptions of the many things that I felt that I had to do to keep the relationship going but did not come naturally to me.

I think it would take a very resourceful human being to both understand my needs and not expect from me the things I find very difficult and unnatural.

[PortInStorm]

Google "Robert J. Sternberg" or his book "Cupid's Arrow: The course of Love through Time". He says (pg. 36 and 37) that emotion is only experienced in a relationship when something's unexpected. Therefore, emotion is rich and varied in the beginning when you don't know what to expect from the other- everything is a surprise. But the more you get to know each other, the more hidden intimacy there is, but the less perceived/felt intimacy (because there's no more surprise, no "interruptions" as he calls it). You don't feel the intimacy, so you don't know if there really is any. He says the way to tell is to create these unusual moments, interruptions, or absences (like taking away the air we take for granted will very quickly tell you how necessary it is to you).

[Hdier]

Out of curiosity, have you ever been without oxygen? I will sometimes choke myself to see what it would be like. The first time I tried it was a real metaphoricall eye-opener.

[WavesSootheMe]

	Originally Posted by tadatanome To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Ideally I would like to see her and speak with her less but still feel like I could hold her hand and sometimes spend the night with her. This is of course the way I would like the relationship to be - to suit MY needs. And this is what irritates her. She feels that I'm not concerned about HER needs. And being accused of being selfish hurts - especially when there's some truth in it.

I think the problem with this conflict is that, often times, solitude isn't seen as a need by others. Many girls will take it to mean that you don't want to see them, rather than you need some time to yourself. It's a hard thing to explain to someone that doesn't feel such a need. Ultimately, you have to strike a sort of compromise. What's the least down time you need and what's the least interaction that she needs? In some cases, sending a short message on days that you don't get together or talk on the phone helps. That way she at least knows that you thought of her.

	Originally Posted by tadatanome To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Are there any of you out there in relationships in which your partner gives you just the right amount of solitude?

Bit of a different perspective since I'm a girl, but here's my response: Most of my relationships have been at a distance of an hour or more or with someone that's incredibly busy (like a first year law student). I think I'm drawn to these sorts of relationships because they have built-in independence. The funny thing is, most guys are so conditioned to think that girls need more that they don't believe that I'm not upset about only seeing them once a week and not speaking to them every day (I, too, hate the phone).

[PortInStorm]

	Originally Posted by Hdier To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Out of curiosity, have you ever been without oxygen? I will sometimes choke myself to see what it would be like. The first time I tried it was a real metaphoricall eye-opener.

Really? No, I just fainted lots as a kid, so I don't fancy the passing out part.

As for the built in independence, I thought about this a while ago. I used to stew about my husband being gone working etc. so much, then thought: "Would I want it the other way? No time to myself? Him forever reaching over to kiss and hug like Peppy LePew?", and realized I chose him because he was like this. I had another boyfriend who was always into talking, romantic gestures, etc., but that was way too much. I like it this way better, because I get a chance to miss my husband, and lots of time to do my thing, and he doesn't say anything when I disappear for hours to do whatever.


I hate the phone too. Everyone has to email me, or they don't get a hold of me.

[Hdier]

I don't choke myself long enough to pass out, just enough to help me remember that there are certain things-such as air-that I tend to take for granted, but shouldn't.

[Paul V]

To me, love is a lot of things:

It's feeling a part of that person with you wherever you are.

It's feeling like you've finally found that sliver of yourself you always knew you were missing.

It's knowing that you'd gladly subject yourself to the most painful tortures or the most gruesome death in order to keep that person safe.

It's knowing that if that person died, a part of you would die as well.

It's thinking about them every day, because they've become a part of your life. And they've done that without you noticing.

Alas, I've never felt it before. I can only imagine. Perhaps I'm being too unrealistic, which is why I doubt true love exists.

[quentin]

I've experience limerent crushes, but I can't say I've ever experienced genuine love. One problem is with our language: "love" is one word that covers several different emotional states. The love of a mother for a child is obviously very different from a schoolboy crush.

To me, genuine love is something that develops slowly over time as a person becomes more and more integrated into your life, and becomes a part of you. This requires genuinely knowing a person - their faults as well as their virtues. When people generally talk about "falling in love", that rush of romantic feeling, they aren't talking about real love, they're talking about infatuation. Romantic infatuation happens quickly and inexplicably. Love takes time.

[Ytterbium]

^ True quentin. English have more or less lost it's original sense. From English "love" is mostly translated as "like" in movies subtitled here. As "love" in my mothertongue is a very strong word and feeling. We have a very mild use of super latives etc for that matter. So it's very cultural also. So if someone from here says (s)he likes you it does not mean (s)he's just being polite and thinks you are a retard. But that person really care for you very much.

[Hdier]

	Originally Posted by Paul V To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	To me, love is a lot of things: It's feeling a part of that person with you wherever you are. It's feeling like you've finally found that sliver of yourself you always knew you were missing.

These two seem very similar, would you mind clarifying the differences?

	It's knowing that you'd gladly subject yourself to the most painful tortures or the most gruesome death in order to keep that person safe.

I have to agree with this one, extremely accurate.

	It's knowing that if that person died, a part of you would die as well.

But what about recovory?

	It's thinking about them every day, because they've become a part of your life. And they've done that without you noticing.

I have always thought of falling in love as 'finding a part of yourself', under that definition, would that mean that they had been a part of you your whole life, without you noticing it?

	Alas, I've never felt it before. I can only imagine. Perhaps I'm being too unrealistic, which is why I doubt true love exists.

I don't think that you are being unrealistic, just idealistic. A fine, subtle, yet important, difference.

On the other hand, your definition is remarkably similar to mine, so I may be a little bit biased in your favor.