[Jinxu]

Mod Edit: This thread was split from
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Originally Posted by ElstonGunn To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Is it possible to phrase that without the buzzwords? What does it mean to lead or follow? What is the submissive role compared to the dominant? Do these apply at all times, and in an all-or-nothing setup wherein one person is the dominant partner at all times and in regard to all subjects without exception and the other is always submissive about everything and has no expressly stated opinions or volition of his/her own?

Here's a list from a college Sociology text by Pearson Education, Inc:

Feminine Traits
Submissive
Dependent
Unintelligent and Incapable
Emotional
Receptive
Intuitive
Weak
Timid
Content
Passive
Cooperative
Sensitive
Sex object
Attractive because of physical appearance

Masculine Traits
Dominant
Independent
Intelligent and competent
Rational
Assertive
Analytical
Strong
Brave
Ambitious
Active
Competitive
Insensitive
Sexually aggressive
Attractive because of achievement

Source:
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[Storm]

Originally Posted by Jinxu To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

( Show Spoiler ) Here's a list from a college Sociology text by Pearson Education, Inc: Feminine Traits Submissive Dependent Unintelligent and Incapable Emotional Receptive Intuitive Weak Timid Content Passive Cooperative Sensitive Sex object Attractive because of physical appearance Masculine Traits Dominant Independent Intelligent and competent Rational Assertive Analytical Strong Brave Ambitious Active Competitive Insensitive Sexually aggressive Attractive because of achievement Source: To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

You have quoted form a sociology textbook what society generally considers masculine and feminine traits. It does not follow that these trends should dictate your behavior or what is best in a relationship.

[Jinxu]

	Originally Posted by Storm To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	You have quoted form a sociology textbook what society generally considers masculine and feminine traits. It does not follow that these trends should dictate your behavior or what is best in a relationship.

Yes, I am well aware of that. No one ever said that a person has to be 100% masculine or feminine. Just like most people here are not 100% on the I, N, T or J. Some people are are more masculine; some people are more feminine.

If you want to take the Masculine/Feminine test, you can go here:

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[Storm]

	Originally Posted by Jinxu To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Yes, I am well aware of that. No one ever said that a person has to be 100% masculine or feminine. Just like most people here are not 100% on the I, N, T or J. Some people are are more masculine; some people are more feminine. If you want to take the Masculine/Feminine test, you can go here: To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

First off, I think your source was biased because all traits for women were negative, whereas all traits for men were positive. Second, I don't know what your point in listing feminine and masculine traits was. I thought it was to explain why you thought women should follow and men should lead. But apparently, I was wrong.

[Rudy]

	Originally Posted by Jinxu To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Yes, I am well aware of that. No one ever said that a person has to be 100% masculine or feminine. Just like most people here are not 100% on the I, N, T or J. Some people are are more masculine; some people are more feminine.

Jinxu, the point is that those traits are not some transcendent standard of what masculine or feminine should be, they are just what society, on average, perceives them to be (assuming the unbiased nature of your source which, it appears, may not be a valid assumption.) They do not in any way represent some fundamental ideal of masculinity or femininity, nor are they to be aspired to.

[Jinxu]

	Originally Posted by RudyHenkel To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Jinxu, the point is that those traits are not some transcendent standard of what masculine or feminine should be, they are just what society, on average, perceives them to be (assuming the unbiased nature of your source which, it appears, may not be a valid assumption.) They do not in any way represent some fundamental ideal of masculinity or femininity, nor are they to be aspired to.

*sigh* If you had read the article you would have noticed that the author also said the following sentence:

	Femininity and masculinity are defined relationally, and the origin of these definitions is in the cultural need to define a masculine hero

[Rudy]

	Originally Posted by Jinxu To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	*sigh* If you had read the article you would have noticed that the author also said the following sentence:

Yes, I just did read the article, actually, and the author is actually condemning this list of traits, and using it as an illustration of what is wrong with patriarchal societies. He says that femininity is only defined in this way in order to artificially inflate masculinity.

[Jinxu]

	Originally Posted by Storm To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Second, I don't know what your point in listing feminine and masculine traits was.

I was asked to by ElstonGunn.





Jinxu added to this post, 3 minutes and 17 seconds later...

	Originally Posted by RudyHenkel To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Yes, I just did read the article, actually, and the author is actually condemning this list of traits, and using it as an illustration of what is wrong with patriarchal societies. He says that femininity is only defined in this way in order to artificially inflate masculinity.

What's your point? I believe those are the main textbook descriptions of masculinity/femininity. Are you gonna try to redefine it? Personally, I think this debate is a little funny because they are just words that can be applied to both men and women.

	Originally Posted by Jinxu To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	As a matter of fact, the current social trend is that males are becoming more feminine "caring" men, while females are becoming more masculine "independent" women.

[Storm]

	Originally Posted by Jinxu To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I was asked to by ElstonGunn.

Elston asked you to reword your posts without buzzword, not list off masculine and feminine traits.

	Originally Posted by Jinxu To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	What's your point? I believe those are the main textbook descriptions of masculinity/femininity. Are you gonna try and redefine it?

Just because a textbook says it, doesn't make it true. Which, like Rudy said, was the point the author was trying to make in the article you linked. The author of that textbook failed to include positive feminine traits and negative masculine traits.

[Jinxu]

	Originally Posted by Storm To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Just because a textbook says it, doesn't make it true. Which, like Rudy said, was the point the author was trying to make in the article you linked. The author of that textbook failed to include positive feminine traits and negative masculine traits.

True, but Google has its limits. If you can find another list, feel free to post it.

[Rudy]

	Originally Posted by Jinxu To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	What's your point? I believe those are the main textbook descriptions of masculinity/femininity. Are you gonna try and redefine it?

My point is that you took your lists of masculine and feminine traits from a website that pointed out the massive flaws in such a list. You managed to conveniently ignore all of the problems the blog's author pointed out with such a list, as they proved too inconvenient for your theory.

So, congratulations; you have a list of feminine and masculine traits from an unnamed Sociology Textbook, which was probably written before women were really considered the equals of men in mainstream society. A list which was dissected and rejected by the author of the very web page you got it from.

You are showing an increasingly clear pattern of looking only for data which supports your theory, while rejecting out of hand anything that contradicts it.

	Originally Posted by Jinxu To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	True, but Google has its limits. If you can find another list, feel free to post it.

Yes, let's all see who can find the prettier list of traits on the internet! They must be the correct one.

[Jinxu]

	Originally Posted by RudyHenkel To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	My point is that you took your lists of masculine and feminine traits from a website that pointed out the massive flaws in such a list. You managed to conveniently ignore all of the problems the blog's author pointed out with such a list, as they proved too inconvenient for your theory.

I don't really care if the author agree or disagree with the descriptions, I only care about the description itself. Whether it is oppressive or not is irrelevant.

[Rudy]

	Originally Posted by Jinxu To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I don't really care if the author agree or disagree with the descriptions, I only care about the description itself. Whether it is oppressive or not is irrelevant.

Exactly my point. You chose these descriptions because you agree with them, not because they are supported by any evidence whatsoever.

[Jinxu]

	Originally Posted by RudyHenkel To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	M You are showing an increasingly clear pattern of looking only for data which supports your theory, while rejecting out of hand anything that contradicts it.

Short answer: No I'm not. And this is a flame.

[Storm]

Jinxu, we're still waiting for you to reword your one post without buzzwords and to explain why you need to be the mental superior so that you can "lead" and what "lead" means to you.

[Sinequanon]

	Originally Posted by Jinxu To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	True, but Google has its limits. If you can find another list, feel free to post it.

If you find the list to be personally problematic, wouldn't intellectual integrity prevent you from posting it, or do you just grasp for any straws that will plug your hole in the moment? Wither honesty? Seriously.

[Jinxu]

	Originally Posted by RudyHenkel To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Exactly my point. You chose these descriptions because you agree with them, not because they are supported by any evidence whatsoever.

I have a sociology professor and she list similar descriptions. I have a sociology textbook, and it list the same too. Feel free to pick up a sociology book sometime.

Yes, it's a description given by society to define a set of traits from men or women. Are all males 100% "masculine" or all females 100% "feminine"? No. Stop making pointless arguments. They are just descriptions! If you want to redefine it, go ahead. If you don't want to accept it, go ahead.

[Jinxu]

	Originally Posted by Sinequanon To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	If you find the list to be personally problematic, wouldn't intellectual integrity prevent you from posting it, or do you just grasp for any straws that will plug your hole in the moment? Wither honesty? Seriously.

I was only referring to the comment in bold:

	Originally Posted by Storm To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Just because a textbook says it, doesn't make it true. Which, like Rudy said, was the point the author was trying to make in the article you linked. The author of that textbook failed to include positive feminine traits and negative masculine traits.

[Rudy]

	Originally Posted by Jinxu To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Short answer: No I'm not. And this is a flame.

No, it's not. Please look up flame. This is not one. This is a legitimate criticism of your methodology.

Originally Posted by Jinxu To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I have a sociology professor and she list similar descriptions. I have a sociology textbook, and it list the same too. Feel free to pick up a sociology book sometime. Yes, it's a description given by society to define a set of traits from men or women. Are all males "masculine" or all females "feminine"? No. Stop making pointless arguments. They are just descriptions! If you want to redefine it, go ahead. If you don't want to accept it, go ahead.

Author and date? You do know that everything in textbooks isn't correct, right? I have read a few myself, though, so no need to worry on my account.

It's a bad description given by patriarchal societies to artificially define masculinity and femininity in order to support the former at the cost of the latter. There is nothing pointless about this at all. You are attempting to define femininity in an incredibly misogynistic way, and I will certainly not accept it, nor glibly let it pass.

[Jinxu]

	Originally Posted by RudyHenkel To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	It's a bad description given by patriarchal societies to artificially define masculinity and femininity in order to support the former at the cost of the latter. There is nothing pointless about this at all. You are attempting to define femininity in an incredibly misogynistic way, and I will certainly not accept it, nor glibly let it pass.

From a recent post:

	Originally Posted by Jinxu To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	As a matter of fact, the current social trend is that males are becoming more feminine "caring" men, while females are becoming more masculine "independent" women.

[Sinequanon]

	Originally Posted by Jinxu To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I was only referring to the comment in bold:

I don't want to cause the thread to become a big wheel-spinning exercise in you defending your list or whatever, though, I suspect you're receiving the attention you want by virtue of all this participation, but my issue was with your saying someone else should find a better list because you apparently don't have the time to find a decent one. So the crappy one will suffice? Why should we tolerate your intellectual laziness? Why would you even bother defending the point in that way? It's your responsibility to understand the context of the material you cite, not others'.

Plus I just wanted to use the phrase "Wither <something>?"
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[Jinxu]

	Originally Posted by Storm To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Jinxu, we're still waiting for you to reword your one post without buzzwords and to explain why you need to be the mental superior so that you can "lead" and what "lead" means to you.

You mean why I feel I need to play the dominant role? Maybe it's because it's in my genes.

Maybe you are confusing the word dominant with the word domineering.

[Storm]

	Originally Posted by Jinxu To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	You mean why I feel I need to play the dominant role? Because it's in my genes. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Maybe you are confusing the word dominant with the word domineering.

No, I'm not. Please answer the question with some more substance than "Because I have a Y chromosome."

[Jinxu]

	Originally Posted by Sinequanon To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	your saying someone else should find a better list because you apparently don't have the time to find a decent one. So the crappy one will suffice? Why should we tolerate your intellectual laziness? Why would you even bother defending the point in that way? It's your responsibility to understand the context of the material you cite, not others'.

*sigh* Fine, here's your starting point. I have yet to see any links from other posters. And no I don't have as much free time as many of you think. Also, I think the list I gave was good:

Negative Masculinity and Femininity: Neuroticism and Acting Out.

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Jinxu added to this post, 1 minutes and 49 seconds later...

	Originally Posted by Storm To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	No, I'm not. Please answer the question with some more substance than "Because I have a Y chromosome."

Because it's a part of my distinct individual personality trait, which belongs to a set of 1 of 16 defined personality traits.

*Going back to writing my essay now...

[Rudy]

Originally Posted by Jinxu To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Originally Posted by RudyHenkel To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. It's a bad description given by patriarchal societies to artificially define masculinity and femininity in order to support the former at the cost of the latter. There is nothing pointless about this at all. You are attempting to define femininity in an incredibly misogynistic way, and I will certainly not accept it, nor glibly let it pass. From a recent post:   Originally Posted by Jinxu To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. As a matter of fact, the current social trend is that males are becoming more feminine "caring" men, while females are becoming more masculine "independent" women.

Please explain to me how this is an argument.

	Originally Posted by Jinxu To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	*sigh* Fine, here's your starting point. I have yet to see any links from other posters. And no I don't have as much free time as many of you think:

Jinxu, you're missing the point. You are the one that wants to provide a list of masculine and feminine traits, so it is your responsibility to provide them. I, and many others, chose to reject your list as being unfounded in fact and without merit. That is your problem to solve, not mine by getting another list, because I'm fine without a list at all, quite frankly.

	Originally Posted by Jinxu To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Because it's a part of my distinct individual personality trait, which belongs to a set of 1 of 16 common personality traits.

Are you actually admitting that your behavior is bound by your personality type? That you can exert no independent control over it?