[TravelnTrain]

	Originally Posted by RudyHenkel To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	There's a very simple explanation, actually.

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Sounds dismissive to me, Mr. Newly-Minted Moderator with the new Bear's Life Poster-Boy avatar!

Hmm...where have I read that INTJ's like to explain away other people's reactions????
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<With apologies to the non-INTJ's...sometimes we have to reign in our own.>

[ENFP]

	Originally Posted by deinotes To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	??? Think you see this wrong or you may have met other intj's than myself To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Yes i expect others to work hard but i myself work even harder and don't expect others to work as hard as me.

Deinotes, I see what you mean. My bad, I wasn't precise enough. I'm sure INTJs take more than their fair share of job-related work and household chores! I meant emotional, relational work. (Actually, knowing I'm an F, you should have logically inferred I meant that!) ;-)

Once in a defined, committed relationship, according to several testemonies at this forum, INTJs seem very devoted too. But the uncertainties, the vulnerability of flirting, keeping up, reciprocating, exploring a friendship, working at the balance of affirmations, pride and exposure... Somehow it feels like they want to stay very safe and as a matter of course leave it to others to take the risks and initiatives, oblivious to the unequality. Perhaps they even feel rejected if others don't initiate for once, not realizing that this is how others may feel quite often?





ENFP added to this post, 20 minutes and 17 seconds later...

Thank you, everyone who bothered reply to my 'complaints'. It is very interesting to read how these things appear to you. I'll get back to some of your comments later. Must sleep now...

[TravelnTrain]

	Originally Posted by ENFP To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Somehow it feels like they want to stay very safe and as a matter of course leave it to others to take the risks and initiatives, oblivious to the unequality. Perhaps they even feel rejected if others don't initiate for once, not realizing that this is how others may feel quite often?

Would it be safe to say you're observing that INTJ's might follow the same relational patterns over and over, rather than adapt to the changing dynamics of a relationship over time? Do your observations lead you to believe the INTJ is less committed to the health of the relationship than someone like yourself might be?

[Sequoia]

	Do your observations lead you to believe the INTJ is less committed to the health of the relationship than someone like yourself might be?

I'd like to answer this one. I find how that commitment is expressed to be quite different in INTJ's rather than any less commitment on the part of the ones I know personally. They don't seem to see the need to show how they feel and so come across as distant or not caring on the same level as others.

But that doesn't mean that feeling is not there and it will be expressed in actions; often unexpected ones, like one person recently who offered to help another friend who was in dire financial straights even thought this person was in simular trouble. He cared and that was how he showed it. Another INTJ shows his affections with unexpected unplanned gestures like flowers, but never says how he feels about the other. Yet another is very pragmatic about taking care of her rather large family, is quite droll and funny. But she never says how much those in her life means to her. It does show up in her photography work. (Just to make clear, none of these people are members of this board.)

INTJ's read differently; they relate differently to people than others. But they value their relationships just as much as other personality types do.





Sequoia added to this post, 9 minutes and 32 seconds later...

jm123 added to this post, 9 minutes and 57 seconds later... Now on to the main point of the thread. These are ones I have heard. We never listen to people. We always look upset. We do not open up to others. We are never happy. We are arrogant. We are poor losers. We are insensitive to others people needs. We are strange. We are untrustworthy since no one can read us. We say the weirdest things when people tell us they want to hear what we think. We must be the spawn of Satan. We sound like robots. We are indifferent to other people. We never get anything done. We think to much. We are not like everyone else. We spend to much time alone. We make things un-fun. That should be enough to get started. (The irony is; we are the ones that are suppose to be insensitive)

Lol, I have been thinking a lot of these judgements of others apply to me and other INFJ's that I know. Specificly to me the following apply:

We do not open up to others.
We are arrogant.
We are strange.
We are untrustworthy since no one can read us.
We say the weirdest things when people tell us they want to hear what we think.
We think to much.
We are not like everyone else.
We spend to much time alone.

I had been called a walking encyclopedia many times in the days before the internet.

[TravelnTrain]

	Originally Posted by Sequoia To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I'd like to answer this one. INTJ's read differently; they relate differently to people than others. But they value their relationships just as much as other personality types do.

Thanks. Very eloquent.

	Originally Posted by Sequoia To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	We are arrogant. We are strange. We are untrustworthy since no one can read us. I had been called a walking encyclopedia many times in the days before the internet.

Even arrogant, strange, untrustworthy, encyclopedic INTJ's can be replaced? Tell me it isn't so!!!!
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[Sequoia]

	Originally Posted by TravelnTrain To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Thanks. Very eloquent. Even arrogant, strange, untrustworthy, encyclopedic INTJ's can be replaced? Tell me it isn't so!!!! To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

The truth can be so uncomfortable sometimes. {{{huggle}}}

[JINT]

We never listen to people.
I'm good listener but it doesn't means I believed you.

We always look upset.

We do not open up to others
I can handle my personal problems.

We are never happy.
I'm sure, I'm always happy.

We are arrogant.
Sometimes, I am arrogant.

We are poor losers.
Losers are in jail.


We are insensitive to others people needs.
I'm insensitive to clueless.

We are strange.
Because we are unique.

We are untrustworthy since no one can read us.
Because they think, we are untrustworthy like them.

We say the weirdest things when people tell us they want to hear what we think.
They want us to lie but we can't bite out tongue.

We must be the spawn of Satan.
Spawn with Satan? They should teach me "How To Spawn With Satan."

We sound like robots.
lol


We are indifferent to other people.
Because we are not like them.

We never get anything done.
Disagree. I always finish my task.

We think to much.
Too much brain.

We are not like everyone else.
I like myself.

We spend to much time alone.
Not me but I love being alone so I can do something like cleaning my car, home, and others then surfing online when I'm free.

I don't know why I'm an INTJ?

[Homini Lupus]

	Originally Posted by ENFP To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	- Being distant and passive, somehow expecting others to do all the work. (Is it because they feel superior or is it because they don't think they matter to others?)

Generally, if I try to organize something in a group work, an extravert comes, says that it should be done in a different way and others follow him/her, regardless of which way would have been more proficuous. So my best bet is to pick jobs I can do by myself.

BTW, in my experience in group works I do all the job, because of I have assertiveness but still lack leadership skills. A good leader values other members of the team and delegates work, I'm still learning to do this effectively though.

- Their need to have control with themselves can feel manipulative. (Is it fear? Or distrust in the value of other peoples contributions?) It can feel like an INTJ is reading from a pre-memorized script or presenting a carefully arranged image, thus rejecting invitations to play = spontaneous, unguarded, process-sensitive exchange. I have never slept with INTJs, but had the idea that sex would be an area where they'd show their naked self without the constant inner censorship and control. From other threads I've learned that I'm probably wrong.

I'll quote the incipit of de coniuratione catilinae to anwer that.

( Show Spoiler )

"It becomes all men, who desire to excel other animals, to strive, to the utmost of their power, not to pass through life in obscurity, like the beasts of the field, which nature has formed groveling and subservient to appetite. All our power is situate in the mind and in the body. Of the mind we rather employ the government; of the body, the service. The one is common to us with the gods; the other with the brutes. It appears to me, therefore, more reasonable to pursue glory by means of the intellect than of bodily strength, and, since the life which we enjoy is short, to make the remembrance of us as lasting as possible. For the glory of wealth and beauty is fleeting and perishable; that of intellectual power is illustrious and immortal."

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- Their cluelessness about how their actions affect other types emotionally. I don't want to think it's bad will, just cluelessness about (their own impact on or the very existense of?) the inner world of others. I'd like them to acknowledge that other people's thoughts and feelings are valuable aspects of their equation too. I'd like them to show they care by taking the trouble of leaving the INTJ comfort zone and make a reality check. Simply ask us if you can't imagine how out-of-the-blue actions and decisions or weeks or months of radiosilence feel to others.

If you have a problem define the terms of it when you need to. I can not spend all my day wondering how you may feel. If you are a person I barely know, your emotions are just a variable of your functionning you have to deal with. If you are somebody I care about I can not help you if you do not tell me what your problem is.

	- How they rarely share their thought-processes, but only let you in on the outcome. (Do they think their inner world is just as obvious to others as it is to them? Or do they fear that others would harm their inner world, if let in? Or are we just considered unworthy by default?)

A Ni based process works best without external interference as its "motor" is internal and external elements disrupt the process. Other people's point of view may be highly interesting, but they need time to be evalued. The real problem here is introversion. After thinking about what you said an INTJ may come to agree with you without caring to communicate it. That may be disfunctional.
It is not fear. It is that if I let somebody in my train of thought they wouldn't understand it (Ni is not very linear) and give me pointless input, which would piss me off and my reaction would make them think I am an arrogant jerk. Keeping the process closed is best for both parties.

	- Instant ego-defense, yes! Perceiving critique when none is intended and promptly sending out the Te argumentative troops to fend off any imagined threat to Fi's everpresent suspicions of being criticized and fear of not being perfect enough. Relax...

I call it "explaining (or defending) my point of view". Anyway, good point.

	(BTW: I don't see INTJs as arrogant, cold, unhappy or un-fun. Quite the contrary.)

This explains why you are here.

[TravelnTrain]

How many INTJ's translate these statements posted by jm123:

We never listen to people.
We discard dribble.

We always look upset.
Cleaning up after everyone else is serious stuff.

We do not open up to others.
We avoid giving pearls to swine.

We are never happy.
We are content with being indispensable.

We are arrogant.
We live above the fray.

We are poor losers.
We take no pleasure in allowing others to win.

We are insensitive to others people needs.
So many messes; we can only help a few.

We are strange.
Unique au monde.

We are untrustworthy since no one can read us.
We are trusted by those who get us.

We say the weirdest things when people tell us they want to hear what we think.
Truth is stranger than fiction.

We must be the spawn of Satan.
To defeat evil, one must know how it thinks.

We sound like robots.
We have to repeat ourselves over and over and over to get through...

We are indifferent to other people.
We can only save the world one person at a time.

We never get anything done.
See upset.

We think to much.
Thinking before acting saves the world every time.

We are not like everyone else.
See strange.

We spend to much time alone.
We need time to repair and strategize before we can clean up after everybody next week.

We make things un-fun.
We hold up a mirror to empty pursuits.

[Motoko]

Originally Posted by jm123 To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Just keep in mind if you know someone that hides behind logic, that does not mean they are an INTJ. There are some people that view "INTJ" as their ideal type, and attempt to emulate it. I will say I have known several, and they appear to be an INTJ on the surface but when investigated, they definitely are not. These people may honestly just be jerks hiding behind the guise of an INTJ. Also if you read the profile on an INTJ we generally are not truly arrogant. That is just the way a lot of people perceive us. A true INTJ recognizes and will admit their weaknesses when asked. jm123 added to this post, 9 minutes and 57 seconds later... Now on to the main point of the thread. These are ones I have heard. We never listen to people. We always look upset. We do not open up to others. We are never happy. We are arrogant. We are poor losers. We are insensitive to others people needs. We are strange. We are untrustworthy since no one can read us. We say the weirdest things when people tell us they want to hear what we think. We must be the spawn of Satan. We sound like robots. We are indifferent to other people. We never get anything done. We think to much. We are not like everyone else. We spend to much time alone. We make things un-fun.

Italics: Maybe true about me, but maybe not other INTJs
Boldfaced: Definately true about me, but maybe not other INTJs

I agree with the original statement of the one whom I am quoting. INTJs are only percieved as arrogant, but we don't dismiss ideas. We just come to conclusions about them based on whether the idea was logical and if it made sense (as a solution to current problem).

[laserist]

It's not that you're wrong, it's how you said it...
Why doesn't he have to follow the rules?
He's right, we really should do that...
Who is that?
You might want to ask (INTJ's name) about that.
No he's not angry, you'd KNOW if he was angry.
It's nothing personal he just doesn't care about that kind of thing.

[ENFP]

On not sharing the process:
I'm strong N as well, but Ne, which might make all the difference. Sharing an N-process, discovering connections together with others can be very rewarding for me.
But anyway, I actually thought of something much more ordinary. An INTJ didn't keep in touch and since I'd felt humiliated by the previous onesideness of initiation (never conversation, though, once initiated) I waited nearly two months to write him and then over some very non-personal matter. He acted as always, seemed happy to speak again, and neither of us commented on the long silence. But I drew the 'he is just not that into you' conclusion. When following up on the neutral matter a week later, he said he came to visit me in a few weeks (we live on different continents, so that was kinda big). So, in the silent weeks, at the same time I had concluded he wasn't interested and thus pulled back, he must have been planning his trip, looking forward to see me?! That's not really optimal communication, I think. Obviously I had to reevaluate my conclusion, I was confused and a bit WTF??? It had been painful for me to close down my feelings and reopening them was also some rollercoaster. I wish he had let me in on his thoughts earlier (like "I'd like to see you soon, and am thinking of visiting you, you dig?"). That makes chances of being on the same page better (and the emotional work / thought work much less straining for the non-INTJs). I think in general that if an INTJ lets people in on their thoughts a little earlier in the process, it would be more likely that non-INTJs understand your actions and conclusions. And that could spare you guys for a lot of the disappointing "people just don't get me"- situations, that I often hear about in this forum.

[Zsych]

I'm starting to do that more often. In part as a self-defence mechanism
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[TravelnTrain]

Confounded the world..priceless.
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[Cocoa]

	Originally Posted by Julia To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	How is it that your classmate knows how serial killers think? To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Well, in my social history class, we were talking about integration of immigrants by making their kids perform North American values within kids plays (in early 20th century North America).

Then this guy says how important it is to portray cops on tv as heroes.

So I added, "well look at CSI, how they solve every murder ALWAYS. In reality only a small percentage of crimes get solved. It is such an obvious example of social control... like "don't do it, cause Grisom is going to get you!"

And he said..... that basically I think like a serial killer. :S

Yeah
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I think that was a perfectly logical argument. I guess (as Plane Stress pointed it out to me) they guy thought I really must have given it some thought LOL hehehehehehe

[Antares]

	Originally Posted by ENFP To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	I'm strong N as well, but Ne, which might make all the difference. Sharing an N-process, discovering connections together with others can be very rewarding for me.

I can relate to that, no matter how much I look like an S on the outside. I'd like to confess that I consider myself to be a person who's quite emotional and intuitive. I love discovering connections too, but I prefer to do it alone; to me, it doesn't matter if I marvel at it with company.

But anyway, I actually thought of something much more ordinary. An INTJ didn't keep in touch and since I'd felt humiliated by the previous onesideness of initiation (never conversation, though, once initiated) I waited nearly two months to write him and then over some very non-personal matter. He acted as always, seemed happy to speak again, and neither of us commented on the long silence. But I drew the 'he is just not that into you' conclusion. When following up on the neutral matter a week later, he said he came to visit me in a few weeks (we live on different continents, so that was kinda big). So, in the silent weeks, at the same time I had concluded he wasn't interested and thus pulled back, he must have been planning his trip, looking forward to see me?! That's not really optimal communication, I think. Obviously I had to reevaluate my conclusion, I was confused and a bit WTF??? It had been painful for me to close down my feelings and reopening them was also some rollercoaster. I wish he had let me in on his thoughts earlier (like "I'd like to see you soon, and am thinking of visiting you, you dig?"). That makes chances of being on the same page better (and the emotional work / thought work much less straining for the non-INTJs). I think in general that if an INTJ lets people in on their thoughts a little earlier in the process, it would be more likely that non-INTJs understand your actions and conclusions. And that could spare you guys for a lot of the disappointing "people just don't get me"- situations, that I often hear about in this forum.

I hate that too, but it doesn't really happen for me because I'm usually the more introverted one in any relationship. I do remember this incident with my former best friend though. She'd always be happy to see me, but I'd be the one initiating 80% of the conversations. When she moved away, I'd always be the first to write; first to call; first to ask her how her day's been going and I was always the one visiting, never the other way around (she attributes it to her lack of courage to be too far away from her family, but hell, I've been doing that for her since fourth grade or we wouldn't have had any sleepovers). The reason I was so diligent with keeping in contact was that she once meant something to me. Back when I was a loner, she was my only friend. With anyone else, or even my best friends today (because I discovered that with time, the concept of "best friend" became less and less important to me), I wouldn't have made such an effort to maintain the friendship. I finally became angry at her half-hearted responses and in a huff refused to meet her that year and went off somewhere else for vacation and ceased all contact. I wouldn't say this is exclusively INTJ, but more in introverts in general (she was an INFJ).

	We never listen to people.

Oh yes I do. I do that very much. I have a teacher whom I don't think too highly of but she has a lot of things to offer me. I'm the most diligent in her class. As long as I can't find flaws with your argument then, it's automatically in the "to consider" category.

	We always look upset.

Gee. Do I? People have always told me I look cute; but I do look murderous sometimes.

	We do not open up to others

When we need to, we will. Most of the things, we can deal with alone.

	We are never happy.

Define "happy". Satisfied? Content? Joyful? The first one is hard to come by, but the latter two I experience on a daily basis, in large doses too.

	We are arrogant.

I prefer to think that I know what I'm doing (and the results usually confirm that), but I suppose I can see where it's coming from.

	We are poor losers.

I'll admit it; I can be quite upset if I lose to someone else, but I never take it personally. To me, losing means a personal failure, not an interpersonal feud. I'm a sore loser, but never to the winner. It is a great testament of character, in my opinion, to be able to lose graciously.

	We are insensitive to others people needs.

I'll have to disagree. I consider myself a natural empath, I just don't have the sympathy. Just as a previous poster said, I just don't really care.

	We are strange.

I scare myself sometimes too.

	We are untrustworthy since no one can read us.

It just means the person attempting it is terrible at what he does. Not my fault he sucks; my face is just full as expressions as the next person (albeit usually false ones).

	We say the weirdest things when people tell us they want to hear what we think.

Oh well. They asked for it. Not my fault it's just not what they're used to.

	We must be the spawn of Satan.

I must say I don't really think he exists, so I must plead innocent.

	We sound like robots.

Something I hear more often (nobody's ever said that to me before) is "You sound like Artemis Fowl".

	We are indifferent to other people.

Ok. You got me there.

	We never get anything done.

That's not really fair. I get them done; just that 95% of them are at done at the last minute.

	We think to much.

Is that even a vice?

	We are not like everyone else. We spend to much time alone.

Ditto as above.

	We make things un-fun.

That depends on your definition of 'fun'.

[Imposcillator]

Originally Posted by dogwoodlover To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I don't share my inner world with anybody. It doesn't matter how close you are, it's very, very rare that you'll ever glimpse it. I suppose there are two reasons for this: 1) I don't like muddled thinking. I like clear, concise ideas that make sense. Often what Ni is doing in our brains is contrary to this. We also (at least I do) want our ideas to be "bulletproof." Speaking directly from Ni without a lot of imposed structure from Te is not preferred, and feels unnatural sometimes. It's difficult for me to even write down my thoughts privately without trying to work it all out first. 2) My mind is like a journal, it's very private for me. Often times people wouldn't want to know what goes on in my/our head(s). Our inner world is our "sanctuary" where we can escape to.

Excellent post.

I recently found out that even the single time that I actually wanted to share my inner world with (a very special) someone, I couldn't.

It began from the inability to put Ni's games into order and try to make sense out of them (something I've oft described as a torrent of thoughts), desperation on that account, realizing that even if I could it might not matter, doubting why I even wanted to in the first place, trying to find suitable words to describe ANY part of this process, and ending up with something like "Uh...I don't know. I was just thinking."

It makes me sad that all I can do is describe the input and then the output (both for thoughts and feelings) but never the process.

To the one that posted this complaint (I think it was ENFP), take both dogwoodlover's and my posts into account before you think that we always do this on purpose or that we don't appreciate you enough.

Just my two hundredths of a dollar.

[floramacivor]

	Originally Posted by RudyHenkel To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Some of us tend to use our INTJ type as an excuse for social deficiencies, rather than work to correct them.

Some of us have been fighting social deficiencies for years and finally decided to either seek therapy or give up - only to find that those social deficiencies are part of an MBTI package. In my case, finding that I was the INTJ type was a relief.

The OP asked for non-INTJ's to list complaints, but there are at least as many posts from INTJ's trying to argue about those complaints. Is that what was supposed to happen?

[Synamon]

	Originally Posted by floramacivor To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	The OP asked for non-INTJ's to list complaints, but there are at least as many posts from INTJ's trying to argue about those complaints. Is that what was supposed to happen?

Supposed to? No. Inevitable? Yes.

I mock, there isn't anything wrong with a discussion. People acknowledging which of the complaints apply to them and trying to understand why they act that way is a good thing (whether the traits have anything to do with being an INTJ or not). The ones making excuses always will and a thread like this won't make any difference to their level of self awareness.

[floramacivor]

	Originally Posted by floramacivor To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	The OP asked for non-INTJ's to list complaints, but there are at least as many posts from INTJ's trying to argue about those complaints.

Never mind. I only read the first couple of pages; I should have read everything before I posted. I'll try to make myself useful . . .

We never listen to people. We discard dribble. - sometimes true for me; I do sometimes discard dribble.

We always look upset. - "serious" is my natural look (some people say I always look "mad"). I've read that it takes more muscles to frown than to smile, but I find it more difficult and straining to attempt to look pleasant. My face doesn't reflect what I'm feeling, though - I'm usually more content than I look. It's just too much effort to make my face match.

We do not open up to others. We avoid giving pearls to swine. - maybe

We are never happy. - I think I'm so busy analyzing what's going on that I never stop to fully experience and enjoy what's going on in the moment.

We are arrogant. We are poor losers. - I've never been accused of being arrogant or a poor loser.

We are insensitive to other people needs. We are indifferent to other people. - Yes; I count this as a personal flaw.

We are untrustworthy since no one can read us. - People always say I'm so quiet, they don't know what I'm thinking (and, since I always look serious, they assume I'm thinking negative thoughts about them.) So, yes, this is probably true for me.

We say the weirdest things when people tell us they want to hear what we think. - Maybe

We spend too much time alone. - Probably.

[ENFP]

Originally Posted by Imposcillator To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Excellent post. I recently found out that even the single time that I actually wanted to share my inner world with (a very special) someone, I couldn't. It began from the inability to put Ni's games into order and try to make sense out of them (something I've oft described as a torrent of thoughts), desperation on that account, realizing that even if I could it might not matter, doubting why I even wanted to in the first place, trying to find suitable words to describe ANY part of this process, and ending up with something like "Uh...I don't know. I was just thinking." It makes me sad that all I can do is describe the input and then the output (both for thoughts and feelings) but never the process. To the one that posted this complaint (I think it was ENFP), take both dogwoodlover's and my posts into account before you think that we always do this on purpose or that we don't appreciate you enough. Just my two hundredths of a dollar.

Yes, absolutely. I really seldom read bad will into the things I describe. If I did, then this thread would be pointless, since people hurting others on purpose wouldn't care anyway. In fact, reading that others DO get hurt will to them just mean that they had done a good job.
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I think most of the 'complaints' about any type reflect involuntary weaknesses, perhaps even unconscious, but not bad intent. I don't even regard the weaknesses as something people have a 'moral duty' to change. As we mature we become aware of our less flattering traits and can look for ways to function better in those areas. For my self, I can be so enthustiastically talkative about a subject that others might feel looked down upon, dominated and run over. When I learn it has had that effect, I'm quite devastated and feel guilty and stupid. I hardly ever set out to belittle or hurt people and find it horrible when I do just that. But caught in the next moment, I might not be aware whether I do it again... Guess the way forward is 'training' plus occasionally a loved one in the situation to gently pinch me when I'm approaching the danger zone.:embarassed:

[NaeturVindur]

	Originally Posted by RudyHenkel To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
	Who says that human action defies all methods of logic and reason? I admit that these things do not have a complete and accepted rational theory for them at this point in time, but what reason do you have to think that such a theory is impossible, or is not worth seeking?

That wasn't what I was saying. I was saying that the intj's that I know always complain endlessly when somebody is doing something that doesn't make sens to the intj (or, at least, they complain until the person that is doing the "irrational" thing stops doing whatever it is that they were doing). I realize that one can take a [can't think of actual term right now, so I'm going to say] causitive [that absolutely everything that happens has a certain cause and effect(s).] view, and that if one could understand exactly what was happening in the doer's mind beforeand while doing said "irrational" thing, that it would actually make sense. the problem is, of course, many people can't/don't have that kind of understanding, and so the thing that is being done doesn't make sense to the observer.

[ElstonGunn]

One that has been touched on but that I'd like to expand is that INTJs have a tendency to act as is discussions were contests. The point is not to come to the best possible answer, but to prove that you're already there and the other person is objectively incorrect by virtue of the fact that his opinion is not yours. If you change your opinion, you've "lost"-- because switching to the right side isn't as important as starting on the right side.

[Latro]

Originally Posted by ElstonGunn To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

One that has been touched on but that I'd like to expand is that INTJs have a tendency to act as is discussions were contests. The point is not to come to the best possible answer, but to prove that you're already there and the other person is objectively incorrect by virtue of the fact that his opinion is not yours. If you change your opinion, you've "lost"-- because switch to the right side isn't as important as starting on the right side.

I think this is one of my inherent flaws that I've largely managed to correct. I don't feel uncomfortable when I wind up "losing" a discussion and changing my opinion, assuming that I supported my original opinion well and they simply supported theirs better. (If I screwed up my argument, THAT bugs me, but then if I screwed up my argument I probably wouldn't wind up changing my opinion anyway). I used to feel this way though, so I guess that's a start.

[PeterIMC]

Originally Posted by steerthestars To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

If you're here because you're curious about how INTJs can manage to be so amazingly brilliant while never straying from the back ground of a situation (except to quietly disassemble your ideas and put them back together in a more logical and original fashion) and you're not an INTJ, what are some complaints you have about us? What do we do wrong? What should we change about ourselves? This is a PRO-GENERALIZATION/AWKWARD STEREOTYPE zone.

The only type that thinks that INTJ's can "manage to be so amazingly brilliant while never straying from the back ground of a situation" is the INTJ type, and more than that, he or she will only think that of him or her self, and hardly ever about other INTJ's.

Most INTJ's aren't so blunt about it as you though, but I think I read in another thread you mentioned you´re almost an INTP and the little experience I have with INTP's is that they would say something like that without even realizing how arrogant they seem that way.


I don't know what your problem is ( I just read your sexism thread ) but I do know that you´re way too full of your self. Reminds me of the "Are INTJ's Narcisists" thread.